Interesting debate?

[lostwithin]

Edit: The post with the link too the petition that I was referring too .It was up this morning, and has been for several days, but has since been deleted.

Since the other post must have been deleted by one of the moderators for a good reason, it is probably best too do the same with this one too avoid whatever problems occurred in the last one from reoccurring.
Thank you,
Devon

[Linds]

Hmmm... well the link doesn't lead anywhere. I ran a search and this was the only thing I came up to, is this the one you meant? http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39782&perpage=15&highlight=venemoids&pagenumber=1

Anyways, in response...

I was always under the impression that qualified vets typically will not perform the surgery due to liablility and morality reasons? And for this reason, any venemoid surgery was typically a shot-in-the-dark basement surgery that often resulted in injured or dead snakes, and those that were not, were not always venom-free as intended? I'm not experienced with this sort of stuff, only what I have been able to read off forums and the like. Hopefully someone with a better knowledge will verify/correct me.

Personally, in my mind performing that procedure is just as wrong as performing a lobotomy on a human is. I'm on the fence for signing such a petition. On one side, it may serve to protect people and lessen the occurrence of faulty surgeries, however, I also feel by signing such a petition it condones the procedure and ownership of venemoids. If my above beliefs are indeed correct however, venemoids would be few and far between as a result of vets refusing to perform such a surgery. Even if this was passed, how could this be enforced? Most snakes are sold privately, and kept privately.

[edh]

Hello Devon,

I couldn't open the link either!

The venemoid debates have not been kept to a full degree in Europe yet. So I am not totally up to date, so my apologies for any irregularities in my post!

First of all I would like to point out that I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone keeping venemoids (exception for those animals in animal sanctuaries e.g.). To my opinion it is a form of animal cruelty. I am convinced that the venomous animals need their venomapparatus (why else would they then have been evolved?).

Nevertheless I wonder if documentation will make this practise any "better" for the animals. It would maybe even encourage the process and that cannot be a good thing. I mean the whole purpose off devenomoning a venomous snake is by defenition not beneficial for the snake, only for its owner/"producer"!

But maybe you can point out to me: why it is a good thing to "produce" venemoids?? Because if there is a good and sound reason for these practices it could be a sound idea to document!

Cheers,

Erik

[lostwithin]

Hi, well since This post has yet too be deleted I will continue posting until it is.

edh,

I also am a firm beliver that removing the venom glands is an act of cruelty designed for the sole purpose of pleaseing people who obviously are not prepared for owning a venomous snake.

I myself think venomous snakes are amazing animals, but do not own then because at this point in my life I cannot afford too keep a full supply of antivenom on hand. Further on when I can afford this. I will most likely own venomous species.

I look at regulating the process as a first step too having it banned. There are very few professionals who will perform the procedure, because of its ethical debates. Therefore regulating venomoids will shut down the majority of sellers, due to the fact they can no longer butcher their own animals. This leaves VERY few venomoid dealers out there. Once this is accomplished it will be much easier too ban the practice all together since most professionals will agree that it is an unnecessary and cruel practice.

Linds,
You got it right and i agree with you, and there will always be those who will do these procedures in there own basements and sell secretly, much as there will always be people who are cruel too animals, or puppy farms, but you have too start somewhere. And making it so that only professional "altered " animals can be sold publicly can help alot. especially when Licensed vets tend not too perform the surgery

Devon

[edh]

I look at regulating the process as a first step too having it banned. There are very few professionals who will perform the procedure, because of its ethical debates. Therefore regulating venomoids will shut down the majority of sellers, due to the fact they can no longer butcher their own animals. This leaves VERY few venomoid dealers out there. Once this is accomplished it will be much easier too ban the practice all together since most professionals will agree that it is an unnecessary and cruel practice.

Hello Devon,

I am afraid that I have mistaken you for someone in favor of venomoids :( ! My sincere apologies!

It sounds like a very good idea!

Cheers and good luck!

Erik

[jaybee]

Lostwithin,
S.A.I.M.R. antivenom is under $45. a vial.You could get by with 5 vials untill the hospital gets you more.So it cost you a total of about $225. This will cover most African snakes,except for the Boomslang.It sound to me like you need to learn more about venomous snakes, before you get into a debate.I don't understand the need to have a venomoid.Maybe if you buy one that was done by a professional and not a hacker ,it would save you $225.

P.S. (too) means also,(to) is what you mean.

[Mustangrde1]

The Petition will be back up again on here soon. The petition as I have said numerous times is not about me or any one person but about helping the animals we love and protecting our hobby.

Unfortunately one person feels the need to inject his personal grudges and try to undermine it. I am sorry this occured. You can still veiw the petition on its original site which is in my Sig. The names continue to role in thanks.

[jaybee]

Scott,It has nothing to do with you,my grandmother could have wrote it for all I care.It looks like a 10year old wrote it,so get your head out of the clouds,and make it look professional.

[lostwithin]

Jaybee,
I nowhere in my post said I would ever own a venomoid . I actually thought I made it quite clear that I was against the idea. Youreally do seem too have trouble understanding people. I’ll try too be more clear next time encase you stumble into the topic. I’ll try too explain again for you.
I am waiting too purchase a venomous animal and not picking up one somebody’s taken a knife too. I do NOT want a venomoid. I live in Canada, I had a very hard time finding anti-venom when I was looking for it, and the few Canadians I talked too informed me of the prices I would be looking at where I am. And they were quite high per vial.
I decided that if I was going too keep a venomous reptile I would want on hand, the amount of anti-venom needed too fully treat 2 adults in the event of a bite from a full grown specimen that I was considering at the time. This was a personal preference, the hospitals in New Brunswick do not have anti-venom in stock, nor would they have any idea what too do in the even of a bite simply because there are No venomous species anywhere near here. I would not put my life or anybody else’s at risk bye not having the necessary supply of anti-venom. This is a personal choice I made.

Now, If you do not have anything useful too contribute rather then just coming into the conversation making your annoying comments, and personal attacks on people. Then please stop wasting peoples time. I was attempting too start a forum where people from both sides could voice their opinions on venomoids in an open and mature fashion. Whether they are for the idea or against them. I was not looking for people who will take shots at everything said uselessly ruining the debate. You clearly have a problem with people who are against the idea of venomoids, but yet not brave enough too admit it. Your actions clearly point out what your thoughts are as well as what kind of person were dealing with, no matter how many times you through something in about not supporting venomoids. And if you truly are against them, and really are just this arrogant of a person then your worse of the then I thought. Anybody ever told you to Grow up or get out? If not then I'll be the first.

Devon

[MsTT]

The discussion about why the anti venomoid petition is currently worded to condemn only the amateur hack jobs has already been pursued at length here:

http://redtailboa.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16985&sid=370195767fae81ab536d68745eaf8e7f

To repost my comments:

I am 100% against voids also. However, I feel that our interests as a community are best served with the current wording on the petition, which can be seen as sane and reasonable even by people who are not opposed to venomoids.

Amateur hack jobs are the majority of the venomoids on the market. This is the reality of what we need to fight against. It's a big first step in the right direction, and I urge you to sign the petition even if you also oppose venomoid surgeries performed by licensed veterinarians.

It's important to identify the purpose of a petition and who it will affect. As I understand it, this petition is aimed at people who put on reptile shows or classified advertisements for reptiles. I believe that the petition as it is currently worded and aimed will be highly effective in reaching this target and helping to eliminate the market for illegally produced "hack" venomoids. Hitting the voiders in the wallet, reducing the number of places they are able to sell their cruel wares, that's effective.

Another step and a totally different project might be to get the cooperation of local veterinary ethics boards, urging veterinarians to refuse to perform this type of elective and unnecessary surgery. A grass roots petition will not be effective in this goal however. This would be a completely different issue and needs to be addressed separately.

In a perfect idealist's world, we could make a difference just by putting our names down and saying, "Yeah, I oppose all venomoids, don't make any or sell any." This is not a perfect idealist's world. In order to make our opposition truly effective, we need to target it accurately. We also need to unify the herp community behind this opposition for maximum effect, and we can't do that unless we focus on the issues that everyone can agree on.

Everyone can agree that it is illegal and inhumane to perform surgery without a veterinary license and without proper drugs. That also happens to be the origin of most of the venomoids on the commercial market today. So please think a little harder about supporting this petition, because it's the one that actually stands a good chance of making a positive change if we all get behind it.

It won't achieve perfection, which could be defined as no venomoids, no where, no how. But the unfortunate fact is that if we aim for perfection, we won't hit a darn thing. This is the petition that will make a difference. This is the first step. Let's all take it together.

[Gregg M]

Jaybee,
What is wrong with you???? Did you smoke something funny???? You do not need to know much about venomous snake to understand that voiding them of their nature is cruel..... I do not see how anyone can get the idea that this petition is pro-void in any way....... It is very anti-void...... The thing it it is legal for licensed vets to do the operation...... So you cant waste all your ammo where it will do no good...... First you need to go after the hackers that do the operation illegaly and then we can start working in other areas...... JayBee, grow up and try to get your brain to spark enough to make one fully thought out statement....

[lostwithin]

MsTT, Very well said, I did in the original posting have a full explanation and a link to a previous post that linked to the petition. However the previous post was deleted, and I assumed it was deleted either due to somebody getting out of hand and the Mods, saw it as a problem, Or the original poster chose to have it removed. I deleted my original post too avoid any conflicts. Also the majority of what it said did not make sense without a link too the petition .I later could not find a link to the petition, Thank you very much for supplying one. Now people will again know what I was talking about.

Thank you,

Devon

[ReptiliansDOTca]

If you guys want to set up a full site for the cause, by all means let me know and we can set something up. My only conerns against it was that, in my opinion, only people who actually keep venomous should be allowed to vote, or sign their name. Why? Well I can just see the opposition now, making the petition obsolete because half the people haven't an idea what a venemoid is or details on the procedure. Of course, I am exaggerating there, but maybe you will see my point. I do not know if there were any spelling errors, but if so that should be corrected immediately - you will want to look as professional as possible.

[Mustangrde1]

There is a site for it actually two sites Trr and Reptilians.org This petition is for everyone as its spelled out thanks for the offer. If you wish to sponsor it there is a sponsors link and any site that wishes to put it on their main page is welcome to. As you can see by some of the sponsors they are not venomous keepers but beleive in the petition and its cause. Again the petition will be back here soon. Thank you again

[lostwithin]

ReptiliansDOTca, , Although I do see where you are coming from I do not agree with you, I do not own any venomous animals. But I do not believe it is right too alter an exotic pet too fit personal needs. Those who keep exotic animals should keep then because of there uniqueness, not alter them. Also ANY person even those who’s most exotic animal is a cat would have too agree that any operation being done too an animal should not be done by unlicensed and unqualified people in "basement hack jobs".
No matter what your stance is on venomous reptiles nobody can say they agree that anybody should be allowed too cut into a living creatures head.

I look at those who create venomous the same way I would somebody who starves there Boa , or Burm to stunt it’s. Both are Cruel alterations of a species simply so you can own a "cool animal" without any of the difficulties that go along with owning them .

Devon

[ReptiliansDOTca]

Very good point, and I too understand where you are coming from. My point is, they may deem the petition obsolete for that reason, or may use it as an excuse. I definitely see where you are coming from. For the record, I do not keep hots either.

[jaybee]

lostwithin,
I think you misunderstood what I'm getting at.I'm not for viods,and will I ever have one.I'm on the same side as you.We may disagree on some things,but thats Ok.

Is this why people have viods? So they can wrap them around there head and look cool doing it,at the snakes expense!

[jaybee]

I hate viods!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gregg M]

Actually if I am not mistaken that snake is hot...... Am I wrong???? Still dont think putting a green on your head is good Scott!!!! OTFLMFAO...... Just because your green is a pussy cat, that does not mean you have to show off to everyone.... LOL

[Mustangrde1]

Lol no gregg that was one of the last voids erj delt with. Ricky actually had fun with the pictures. Perhaps Ray can find them and post the way they really were posted. That was probably three years ago. I do have to say though as it appears to be a concern I DO NOT HATE VOIDS its not their fault some butcher mutilated them and took from them that which makes them so unique. And if I was ever was asked to rescue one I would without a secound thought and then place it with a facility that could use it hopefully to educate the public. then ive told you that before lol.

[cobraman]

Jason, thanks for your vote of confidence, however, I question your motives and sincerity in some of what you wrote. If your intentions are good, the goodness is diminished by your repeated stabs at Scott. There is no benefit of consistently posting silly pictures of Scott having a little fun with a few venomoids. The thread that those pics were originally posted on has long been deleted, so there was no danger of venomoid propionates seeing the pictures (as you stated to be your concern).

I have corrected the typos that were in the venomoid petition, and the corrected version has been e-mailed to both Scott and Will to replace the original. If you are a man of your word, I’ll expect to see your signature on it.

I have now addressed both of the concerns you claim prompted you to come back on this site and launch attacks against Scott. If I missed anything, I would invite you to contact me via phone or e-mail so I can address those issues.

Scott and I are opposed to voids for many reasons, but the thing that did it for me was the fact that the few voids we had (when I started running ERJ) did not fare well. Most of them died, or were not fit to be sold. In one case, a Papuan Black Snake (that was supposed to be a void with gland implants) was in fact still venomous. I verified that the snake was still hot with two methods. This could have resulted in someone’s death, had I not discovered the problem prior to the snake’s sale. Scott’s display of the green mamba may have been to show how the surgery tends to affect the snake’s total character. There was not one venomoid snake there that ever made an effort to bite after the surgery was performed. This is un-natural, and I doubt it is a sign of a healthy snake.

If you are truly on our side in this matter, you will not complicate matters with silly posts. Feel free to call me if you need to.

Blessings
Ray Hunter

[lostwithin]

Well said Ray, will the link too the new petition be given a spot of it's own in the forum for people on this site too continue adding there signatures ?
Devon

[MsTT]

Originally posted by cobraman Scott’s display of the green mamba may have been to show how the surgery tends to affect the snake’s total character. There was not one venomoid snake there that ever made an effort to bite after the surgery was performed. This is un-natural, and I doubt it is a sign of a healthy snake.

In my experience, snakes that have been through major physical trauma come out the other side with their personality altered. Some of them get permanently soured and treat every attempt at handling as a life or death situation that they have to fight. Others are permanently cowed and meek and will make no attempts to bite. I expect that the rehabbed green mamba I gave to Scott would be in this category. She is fully hot, but not very interested in biting. Wouldn't recommend freehandling her though.

The surgery we put snakes through is always mitigated by pain relief medication. We use the stuff quite generously on the same humane dosing schedule that dog and cat patients would recieve in consideration for their post operative pain. So that helps considerably, but we still see significant psychological effects.

[cobraman]

Well said Ray, will the link too the new petition be given a spot of it's own in the forum for people on this site too continue adding there signatures ?


Yes, I'm sure it will be. If not I will start a thread with it.

[Gary O]

Originally posted by Mustangrde1
There is a site for it actually two sites Trr and Reptilians.org This petition is for everyone as its spelled out thanks for the offer. If you wish to sponsor it there is a sponsors link and any site that wishes to put it on their main page is welcome to. As you can see by some of the sponsors they are not venomous keepers but beleive in the petition and its cause. Again the petition will be back here soon. Thank you again

Also I would like to add to the sponser thing.

I am working on a javascript that will have every sponser in it. It will rotate the banners of the No Void sites. The sponsers will get 100% free advertisement on TRR. I know not much but it is something. Also anyone that would like the script when I am done can have it to put up on there site. All I ask is that you host the banners so it does not eat up at my bandwidth lol. You upload the banners to your server and I will add them into the script. I may have another route to go though..............

I hope to have this done this weekend. I will keep you all updated. This is just a way to get the word out about the no void sites.

Thanks everyone!
Gary