View Full Version : hobby and handling
Well, as to the hobbyist question, the Merriam-Webster dictionary defines a hobby as "a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation".
This means that if your regular occupation is breeding reptiles, you are technically not a hobbyist. That doesn't mean that you do not find joy and relaxation in your work. But to be precise, it doesn't fit the actual definition of hobby anymore.
Besides that, I'll add my opinion in on the original question. The animals I intend to breed are not old enough yet, and my older animals do not have mates. So, I've not gone further into my hobby than keeping animals so far.
As a buyer, I will say that I always would prefer to buy animals from someone nearby. I like to see the animal before purchasing it. However, I do want some animals that are rare, and won't get them locally, at least not for a long time, and I'm hoping to have them long before that! So, I will save my money, knowing that I've got to pay shipping too. And if I go to my chosen breeder, and they say upfront that they will be charging handling as well, that's fine. I'll add it to my price. If it's a surprise, I'd still likely buy the animals, but probably not go back to that breeder next time.
Just my two cents.
Thanks,
Nicole
Jeff_Favelle
06-04-04, 05:55 PM
Handling, feeding, watching, observing, and taking pictures of reptiles is NOT my occupation. Breeding and selling them is. So I AM a hobbyist. Like I said before, that's like telling a commercial fisherman that he cannot fly-fish for steelhead or trout as a hobby because he trolls for salmon 5 days a week.
Speaking of trolls...............
Oliverian
06-04-04, 06:03 PM
Hmmm... must have missed something. Time to go back and read!
-TammyR
VooDooMafia
06-04-04, 06:07 PM
IMO just cause you make $$ off your Hobby doesn't mean you are not a hobbiest anymore. I think if there were more hobbies that ppl could make pay for themselves then more ppl would have hobbies.
Also how many breeders do you know that dont take most of there profits and put that into new breeds/blood lines and other reptile related items?
Jeff_Favelle
06-04-04, 06:18 PM
EXACTLY VooDoo! Excellent post!
A lot of people have had hobbies, then their work became so popular that hobby BECAME their job. Like guys who tinker with car customization for 15 years, then people start noticing their stuff is top notch and wham, its a job.
Marisa
Jeff, that was one of the most beautiful segues I've ever had the pleasure of reading. Nice work.
BTW, sorry, that was meant to be added onto the post Jeff started about adding handling charges to the price of reptiles! Oops!
To add to it all, if everyone could have a job/hobby whatever you want to call it, but if people did what they truly loved a little more as a source of income the world would probably be a much better and happier place. Wouldn't have so many crankys out there, doing what they hate the most, 'working for "the man"! ' Anyways just a thought out loud.
Allison
Tim_Cranwill
06-09-04, 10:25 AM
Nikki, What does a dictionary definition have to do with anything I feel or do? Let me find a word in Webster's to define YOU! (not meant in a mean way or to imply a rude word to define you...) :p
Just making a point... ;)
Janiman
06-09-04, 11:14 AM
I'm not trying to enflame anything here, but there are government guidelines that define hobby and business. In ontario, there is a limit on how much money a person can make from their "hobby" before it becomes a "business". I believe it is around $2000 per year. Anything over that and you are supposed to claim it on your taxes... and you are no longer a "hobbiest". That said, you can still be a hobbiest while professionally practicing your trade.
...I'm sure a professional hockey player can still play a little street-hockey just for fun!
leoncurrie
06-09-04, 11:33 AM
I think that this hobby has turn more into a commercial thing as opposed to enjoying herps for what they are. The goal now seems to be breed and sell as much as you can, as fast as you can.
Tim_Cranwill
06-09-04, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by leoncurrie
I think that this hobby has turn more into a commercial thing as opposed to enjoying herps for what they are. The goal now seems to be breed and sell as much as you can, as fast as you can.
For who?
I'm not saying that isn't true for <i>some</i> people but I breed, does that mean I am not a hobbyist? I hope not....
Don't get stuck defining life by a book... there's a whole lot of grey between the black and white ends of the spectrum.
leoncurrie
06-09-04, 11:43 AM
Sorry Tim, I should have said the majority of people.
leoncurrie
06-09-04, 11:49 AM
I really think Niki has a good point though regardless
Most people would love to have a hobby that supported itself, plus brought in a little extra to expand. Exactly what breeding reptiles can do.. If someone is breeding a reptile, obviously they are maintaining it in the best possible conditions, hence they are a hobbyist.. heh
Tim_Cranwill
06-09-04, 11:51 AM
lol... that's ok, Leon.
I totally see what you are saying. It's a tough subject to debate. I don't think any person can define another's "stand point" in the hobby/trade. That's why the blanket statements people throw out bug me... who are they to say? ;)
This should be a good thread though. :p :)
leoncurrie
06-09-04, 11:53 AM
just because someone is breeding there herps does not mean they are taking care of there animals.... trust me.... I've seen some breeders operations
leoncurrie
06-09-04, 11:54 AM
I agree Tim.... should be a good outcome
Leon, I suppose iam speaking for a majority then. Always someone out there that isn't in it to care for the animals, look at dog breeders.. unfortunatly theres more bad than good when it comes to k-9's.
leoncurrie
06-09-04, 11:57 AM
V.hb.... Couldn't have worded that better myself :) ;)
Well, I seem to have been completely misunderstood!
I meant to say that by the dictionary definition, you aren't "technically" a hobbyist anymore if you make your main income from your 'hobby'. Not to say that even if you do make your income from it, you no longer enjoy what has been your hobby, but the precise word to name what you're doing is no long 'hobby'. You just can't argue that, it's how the word is defined. A pencil is always a writing implement with a solid center that makes the marks. And a pen always has a liquid substance to make the marks. A pen is not a pencil. But both can be used to do the same thing.
Just because the word Hobby doesn't apply, doesn't mean to imply any judgement one way or the other on what someone does. It's just that it doesn't fit the definition. That's what language is. Maybe we need to find a new word for someone who's main occupation is something they love. I think it's fantastic! More power to you if you can do it!!! :)
Also, I never said all breeders are not hobbyists! I said, if you make your main income from breeding, by the definition of the word, you are not longer a hobbyist, but a professional.
I have an easy word to use to describe me! ;) NO, not THAT word!!! LOL! Precise. :D
Sorry if I seemed to upset anyone. Just putting my two cents worth in, on a question that I saw come up in Jeff's thread.
"You just can't argue that, it's how the word is defined."
HAHA Is the Websters dictionary the end all be all now? I frankly prefer not to describe myself accourding to a book other people wrote, thanks. But hey, its a GREAT tool for Scrabble.
"Maybe we need to find a new word for someone who's main occupation is something they love. I think it's fantastic! More power to you if you can do it!!! "
Yeah its called college graduate. Not everyone hates their jobs. My boyfriend LOVES going to work, but is it a hobby? No. Does it need a new word? LOL no. It's a job. I love my snakes, but I also sell some once in awhile. Is it a job? No. It's a hobby. Even people who don't make money off their hobby eventually do. If a person gets out of the hobby, they sell their stuff. Money.
"by the definition of the word, you are not longer a hobbyist, but a professional."
Again, if you keep your life strictly to Websters guidlines, sure. If you call me a professional herp breeder because I have had two corn clutches, then thats um, well weird. It's a hobby. I am not a professional. LOL.
This is also my two cents worth. I am a hobbyist, not a breeder, by MY definition. :)
Marisa
Ok... Marisa...
You ARE a hobbyist by any dictionary definition, as you are not making your living by selling herps, just occasionally selling them. Did you not READ what I SAID?
Also, education does not have anything to do with loving your work. Duh! I have a university degree, a college diploma, and have done the professional studying to attain my insurance licenses. That doesn't necessarily mean that I love what I do! (Although I have to say, I do like it well enough.) But BELIEVE YOU ME! Insurance is NOT anyone's hobby! LOL!!! :D And as for the other schooling I did... (a degree in Fine Arts with a concentration in English Lit, and a Computer Sciences diploma). Ya, I can say I'm a hobbyist when it comes to art, writing, and computers, as they not my main profession. And reptiles are another hobby. Even when some of my babies grow up to be bred, it'll still be a hobby, unless I quit my day job and did nothing else but breed reptiles to make my money, then I'd no longer be a hobbyist.
So, unless you mean that your two corn clutches provided your whole career so far, you ARE a hobbyist!
And if you don't want to define words by what they really MEAN, then what's the point of speaking the same language as everyone else? If you mean something different when you say one word than I mean when I say it, how do we communicate? If I say 'tree' and you imagine a small furry bunny, I'm sorry but you are wrong. Websters, Oxford, or any other dictionary, as well as most 5 year olds will tell you a tree is not a small furry animal.
I don't like to define what I AM by a dictionary. No.
"Just because the word Hobby doesn't apply, doesn't mean to imply any judgement one way or the other on what someone does. It's just that it doesn't fit the definition"
That's what you said. And what I said was, WHO CARES ABOUT THE DICTIONARY! In this time in the reptile community many people are many things that do not fit into the dictionary.
No one said a tree is a furry animal. You are going way overboard to prove your point that the dictionary is used to define words. We all know this. But thanks for the refresher.
I like your paragraph about your education but you missed my point. You said maybe we need to think up a new word for people who love their jobs. I said why? There is no point in that unless you cannot fathom someone being something that is not clearly definied in the dictionary. THAT was my point. I worded it wrong obviously as it caused you to explain your own personal education and work position. lol.
My whole point is that labelling people is stupid. Some people make an income from reptiles that's enough to sustain themselves, while also having a SECOND income from a day job. So TWO full incomes. Does that automatically mean the reptiles aren't a hobby? I guess if you are obsessed with labelling from the dictionary. But many people wouldn't like to be labelled that way as they have a day job as well.
Marisa
leoncurrie
06-09-04, 01:53 PM
Ok maybe we should all just drop this subject. It's getting kinda heated. Let's talk about water temp for mud turtles. :)
HAHAHA
This is not heated. LMAO. This is normal discussion.
Marisa
BoidKeeper
06-09-04, 02:12 PM
Only Leon gets heated. Leon you think anyone who produces a clutch or corns a year is running a puppy mill for snakes!
But seriousely Leon I think that just because Canadians are finally starting to realise the economic potential of this "hobby" that doesn't mean it will end up as a negative thing. The hobby as a whole in Canada is changes yes, but I say you need to embrace it not get frustrated with it. The hobby may be changing but that doesn't mean your attitude or methods have too. Here at home we are still trying to meet new fellow herpers and help and grow. Your just getting too sincle(sp) in your old age man! lol
Just kidding,
Trevor
Cruciform
06-09-04, 02:34 PM
Language evolves.
Forum users do not. :D
Ok, I haven't read everyone's posts (sorry), but my question this: Why is keeping reptiles considered a hobby anyways?
Breeding or not, they are first and foremost my pets, my companions, and not a 'hobby'. A dog or cat owner who owns multiple animals because their animals have produced litters, typically aren't called hobbiests, they're called pet owners. They enjoy the companionship of those animals
I know is beside the point, but I had to add my two cents.
This debate is otherwise uninteresting to me, but you've all made good points. =)
Samba, you are actually very correct. And shows my point well, they are whatever you make of them...a hobby....a business....a career....a pet...a zoo.....part time breeder....backyard breeder....etc etc..... No dictionary word can describe you, unless you make yourself fit that description.
Marisa
Thanks, Marisa, I apologize for not reading your posts (I'm at work and the posts are looooong) hehe. I personally think definitions are just generic. They are not meant to be ALL INCLUSIVE they are simply generalizations.
~S~
Jeff_Favelle
06-09-04, 04:05 PM
just because someone is breeding there herps does not mean they are taking care of there animals.... trust me.... I've seen some breeders operations
And just because someone successfully bred their herps and sold them, doesn't mean that they don't love reptiles and they don't take good care of them. Blanket statements do NOT work either way. I'm with Crannie and V.hb. Don't lump people together and don't say what the "majority" does, because I don't think we even know 1/10 of the amount of people that actually keep snakes. The people that post here on ssnakess.com is probably 1% of 1% of 1% of the people that actually own reptiles in Canada.
Keep what you want to keep and sell what you want to sell. As long as you take good care of it and are honest, who gives a flying FRICK what anyone else thinks? I know I sure don't. And I know that people and reptiles would be better off if people would worry more about THEIR OWN collections than labelling what other people do with theirs.
Scales Zoo
06-09-04, 04:10 PM
Keeping and breeding fish is considered hobby. They are not "pets", because they do not come when called (like a Dog, not necessarily like a Cat)
So, in this way - many people consider reptile keeping a hobby. It is similar in many ways to fish keeping, and I bet most of us started out with fish.
Proper temps, proper diet, aquariums, sit and watch them move about, grow them up to successfully breed them - what am I talking about, fish or snakes?
The main difference is snakes are ok with coming out and interacting, many fish do not like it (I learned the hard way, evenutally)
Ryan
Jeff_Favelle
06-09-04, 04:11 PM
Ok, I haven't read everyone's posts (sorry), but my question this: Why is keeping reptiles considered a hobby anyways?
Breeding or not, they are first and foremost my pets, my companions, and not a 'hobby'. A dog or cat owner who owns multiple animals because their animals have produced litters, typically aren't called hobbiests, they're called pet owners. They enjoy the companionship of those animals
Great point Samba!!
But even before I started breeding the reptiles I have, I still never considered them as pets. Pets, to ME, are usually mammals that you INTERACT with. Dogs, cats, etc etc. I equate reptiles with fish. Like collecting and building salt-water aquariums. That's a hobby. Setting up tropical terrariums to watch and view herps. That's a hobby. I don't think that they are pets. MANY people want them to be. They want their pet corn to love them and remember them and do laps in their swimming pool and think fondly of them, but they never will. They are interesting creatures to watch, observe, and take photos of. Like bird watching in the wild. THAT is a hobby. Pets are dogs and cats and pot belly pigs! LOL!
Jeff_Favelle
06-09-04, 04:13 PM
Damn, Ryan beat me to the punch.
And hey, Ryan, I'm going back to work, I'll phone you back tonight. Picking up snakes at the airport, and I decided to stop by and check out the email. BIG mistake. 2 hours later....................................
Why is there an aversion to being called a business or a professional?
Jeff_Favelle
06-09-04, 07:32 PM
Why is there an aversion to being called a business or a professional?
Why is there an incessant need to put a label on someone? are there going to be degrees of keepers now based on numbers of animals kept? Like going up levels in D & D? LOL! Just keep what you want to keep, and sell what you want to sell. Everyone quit worrying about everyone else for one week and go clean some cages or take some photos! LOL!
Its about the HERPS, not about the keepers!
LOL! From your posts, it seems like most of you do genuinely love herps and caring for them, and I'm glad to see that. To be brutally honest, I don't care whether anyone anywhere is a hobbyist or a professional, but I just wanted to clarify that there techical difference in what the terms mean. That's all.
I love my herps. I take the best care of them possible. If they were kids or cats, other people would say I spoil them rotten! ;) LOL
And obviously, "Its about the HERPS, not about the keepers!" is absolutely correct. I care way more about how safe and cared for my animals are than what you guys want to label yourselves. I just joined the conversation because I thought it might interest people to know the definition of what they were claiming to be.
Anyways, best wishes to all and your reptiles!
Nicole
Jeff_Favelle
06-10-04, 06:33 PM
Well said! :D
Scales Zoo
06-10-04, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Damn, Ryan beat me to the punch.
Yeah, and it's scary we both came up with the same explanation (pretty much).
I view the difference between a business and a hobby "collection" by the amount of non breeding animals maintained. We have fewer "non breeders" than we used too, some people keep no non breeding snakes whatsoever, and others have collections mostly comprised of non breeders.
I'd say that is a pretty good guide.
Ryan
Jeff_Favelle
06-10-04, 11:59 PM
Indeed! :D Good points.
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