Selling to a minor

[spidergecko]

Situation: I have been in contact with someone interested in buying a number of geckos from me. We've been emailing for the better part of a month planning when I will have the animals available and when/how I will ship them to him (out of province). During some small-talk today, he mentioned to me that he is 13 years old. I had assumed he was over 18 because he sells at shows and has a "business name". In fact, one of the questions I was going to ask him just before shipping was, "Are you 18 or older?". I do not feel comfortable selling to someone under 18, especially under 16, and especially under 16 and never met face to face. Recently there was a situation in the BOI about a minor receiving a snake and his mother complained that the animal died and they want the money back. Even if I was to get parental consent, I still feel like there are too many problems tied up in this.

Does anyone have an opinion on what you think I should do? I don't want to be a "bad businessman" since I never stated the buyer must be 18+. But I also don't feel comfortable selling to a minor.

Thanks for reading.

[mathaldo]

Sell the geckos to his parents who will in turn give the geckos to the kid, and he will pay his parents back... so that means you would've sold the geckos to adults not to the kid.

[Cruciform]

I've read that whole thread about the Gluhcheff's, and what a mess it's been.

If you really want to be safe, deal with the parents directly for the final part of the deal.

That way you can explain to them what is involved in the transaction, both monetarily and in the animal(s) specifically.

As someone who forged about 150 notes in junior and senior high, I can say that just getting a letter or fax won't absolve you of any responsibility. Any kid could fake one.

And a kid can also use their knowledge to misrepresent what the animal is when asking their parents if they can have them. "Mom, I want a reticulated python from this site, you can look them up under Python Regius < wink wink >. They only get to be 4 feet long! < snicker >".

Not like that will happen with Geckos, but it's just something to think of with any transaction :)


PS. When I was 11, I almost DID buy a reticulated python. The seller heard me telling my dad I wanted a snake in the mall, and he offered to sell it to us for 300 dollars, saying it would only grow to 4 or 5 feet, tops. Good thing my dad didn't have the money and blew him off :)

[mykee]

If he's a minor, I personally would not sell to them. Who needs to put themselves in the line of fire for a little cash.

[proud2bcanadian]

I agree with what mathaldo said.

I'm a bit older than him, though I would only buy animals at the EXPO or at the store.

If you don't meet them face to face, I would suggest not to sell them the animal, but sell it to his parents.

HTH and Good Luck

[JeffT]

I am 15, have been selling and buying for years. Acutally most people are surprised when they see me face to face or come to my door.

I am a responsible herp owner/ starting breeder and never screw people around on deals or rip people off. Its true there are a LOT of kids out there and teens my age who have no idea what they are doing and its unfortunate, becaue it makes all of us younger people look bad.

Sell to him if you feel it is right and he knows what he is doing.

[Stockwell]

While its true there are some exceptional young and capable herpers, everyone must look out for their own well being when it comes to business, and concerns about liability.
The reality is that 13 year olds, are not out on their own, paying their own keep, nor owning their own premises...
They are at home, under Mom & Dad's roof, living under Mom and Dad's rules
I agree with the other posters... Insist on making the business transaction happen between you and the parents. Speak with them directly on the phone and if it proceeds get a certified cheque(wih parents name) or major credit card on the sale
If the kid's herp interests are in fact being supported by the parents, he should have no problem involving them in the transaction.
Now if he wants it left a big secret from the parents , then that is exactly what to worry about.

[Artemis]

IMHO- it all depends on the kid and the vibe you get from him, I agree with everyone else that you should indeed have him arrange the paper work with the parents, so that your legal bill of sale is not to a minor. But if it is the welfare of the animals that worries you, I would find out from the kid what he knows about their husbandry, and quiz him a little. You dont have to sell to him if you arent comfortable with his ability to handle the animals, and that doesnt make you a bad businessman, it makes you a good one, and exactly the kind that most people look for when purchasing pets or exotics to keep.

Personally, I have been keeping exotic animals since I was a kid, and I always took it very seriously. I am 25 yrs old now, but I can honestly say that when I was 13, I would have been able to handle it, and would have been as responsible about keeping them then as I would now. The only difference is, now I have more experience, but the only way to gain it is to keep the animals.

If you get a good vibe from the kid, and he is involved to the point where he is selling in shows, then it shouldnt be a big deal. And, if he really wants the animals, then it shouldnt be a big deal for him to get his parents to be on the paperwork.

Artemis

[JeffT]

Good point Artemis, if your getting a bad vibe from the kid then maybe include his parents and make it VERY clear to them what the animals needs to thrive.

However I gotta admit, id be a little offended if someone wants to be speaking with my parents and need a note from them regaurding my business affairs that are going to be paid for with my own funds.

I pay for everything for my herps from vet bills, especially food and even a cut in the power-bill. I know that it isnt cheap to be running 6 heat lamps, 2 UV lights and 5 heat pads 12-24 hours a day.

Jeff

[lostwithin]

Hey, if you’ve been going for months and the person in question seemed reputable then I would consider it unfair too not deal with him because he’s young. It looks bad on anybody if the pull out of a deal that’s been planed, for something like that. If you truly are concerned then speak with the individual and explain the situation, maybe soften it up a bit, tell him because of liability he has too have somebody of legal age too consent too the purchase. It wouldn’t be hard too just tell him the deal should be fine but because you have too cover your own but you have too talk too a legal guardian. If he’s been dealing with this business I’m sure he'll understand your situation. The homeowner should have a say in what is in the home. No harm in double-checking that too make sure nothings going on. But too simply cancel the action because of his age seems wrong too me a deal is a deal, and unless he deliberately was deceiving you and lying about his age, then its not his fault at all you assumed he was older, . That’s just my 2 cents. I always like too talk too somebody if not in person then over the phone. You can tell allot about a person by how they talk age, maturity, personality, and knowledge. est. All from a phone call without actually asking any of it.
Devon

P.s, why is this in the enclosure discussion section ??

[Artemis]

Yes, you and Jeff are right, it could be offensive, but its all in how you play it. Its not about being militant and huffy- he just needs to express his own concern for the animals, and he can tell people point blank that he doesnt mean it offensively, its just how he does buisness. Then he can politely bring up what the animlas need, in brief, and see what their responses are... the seller can get a gauge of whether or not they will be cared for. And if you think people might be offended by that, Id have to disagree. Trust me, if you can tell the person you are about to buy from really CARES about the welfare of his animals, you wont be offended, you'll be a repeat customer.

I look for that in all the suppliers I buy from.

Only one perspective... don't sweat it too much!

Artemis

[spidergecko]

Thanks all. First off, I posted this in the General Enclosures section because I'm stupid. I thought it read "General Discussion" :P Oops! If a mod can move it that's good.

It's hard to say whether I think he is capable. He tells me he is breeding all kinds of morphs of this gecko (they are bibrons geckos, btw). I didn't know there even were different morphs possible. He named all kinds of leo-type morphs but with bibrons. It sounded weird but since they breed so easily I figured anything is possible. He even emailed me to tell me he just hatched an albino bibrons. I congratulated him (although I didn't believe it) and told him to send me some pics. He said he would. He hasn't sent them. Then he proceded to tell me he has only really been breeding them since last August. I don't think you can get all those morphs in under a year.

I then had a lengthy discussion with him that the bibrons geckos we keep in captivity are actually Turner's geckos since it is illegal to export true bibrons from South Africa (where they are isolated). He told me he was sure he had bibrons. I showed him pics and articles but he told me he was positive he had bibrons. He got them before the "ban". As he is a breeder I figured he had to be telling the truth. What do I know? I thought this unlikely but anything is possible I suppose. I told him I positively have turner's gex but that they may cross with bibrons (no guarantee). He said that's fine while personally, I would have said, "Sorry, no sale if I'm not getting breedable animals." But who am I to say no if he's willing to accept this responsibility?

He told me he currently has 64 bibrons he is breeding and wanted to increase the gene pool of his bibrons by adding 15 of mine. I told him that all 15 of mine are related paternally (I'm not sure if I told him the mothers are most likely sisters but I did tell him I bought them at the same time). He didn't have a problem with that even though, to me, 15 brothers/sisters, half-brothers/sisters isn't increasing the gene pool too much but who am I to argue?

Well, I suppose he could take care of them properly. They aren't difficult to care for and make a good first gecko. But now I'm wondering if he's stretching the truth and that doesn't make me feel any better. He told me he spends upwards of $250 a month on food for the geckos. I'm sorry but Bibrons do not bring in a large income, especially at $20 a gecko and how is a 13 year old getting $250 a month? I can't even afford that and I'm close to 30! :D

OMG, this reeks of something and I am feeling more and more uncomfortable after writing this post.

Devon: We have only been discussing the sale for about 25 days. It hasn't been months and months. I don't know if that changes your opinion ;)

[Ixidor]

that sounds a little shady I dont think I would sell them to him, I would just state to him that you don't believe he is telling the truth, if he lives close then try to arrange a meeting with his parents as cruciform said its very easy to forge a note or even talk with a really deep voice on the phone :) if he says he cant or doesnt live close enough then I dont think i would sell I mean he's already lied to you once.....you shouldn't feel obligated to sell to somone who you dont believe is capable of raising the animals

[YummyCdnMale]

It's always going to be incognito via selling on the net! As well as the rip-offs that go with it as well ( people selling reptiles via a pic when the reptile arives it's nothing like in the pics if it even arrives at all) as long as people do the transactions via the internet vs, going to your local reptile dealer. When someone comes in my store my first impulse is to SELL! but! not at any cost!... When i was new to the business i would have sold and did sell to children under 14 and never to children under 12. In the end i had more angry parents then i had happy ones as they had no clue there son was bringing home a snake! I never really realized the consequences until one day a father of a boy i sold a ball python to said "well son!" guess you lost 125$ because your leting the snake go! It was then i had realized what possibly could happen to my reptiles by doing so..... I have a sign at the cash these days not selling to children under the age of 18 unless acompanied by an adult and that's a parent not friend of the family or some guy the kid just paid 5 bucks outside the door to say that this boy/girls there son. I ask for i.d believe it or not or a home number where i can call to confirm the parents are aware as well. I also look at how the child handles the reptile because i have had some want to buy a snake just to have one and did'nt even have a clue about what they were buying and obviously would'nt care for the snake as well as you or i would. Best advice is to make up a contract between the buyer and seller and have both the adult and child sign it as well as some care sheets to follow it only takes a few seconds to print off some sheets for your client instead of trying to sell them booklets on the how to etc.... I guess it all lays in the hands of the reptile dealers to inform these new clients about the proper care for the reptile they just bought and not up to the customer. Anyone can sell a snake and be done with it and on to the next me personaly i love hearing how the snakes doing it's habits how it's feeding etc. I also spend the time to talk to a customer and not rush them out the door because another sales waiting. I sold a texas rat snake pair to a 13 yr old 3 yrs ago he came back and bought 6 more within the year he bought the first 2 .... I now buy all my ratsnakes from him as he is now breeding them and very responsible...... we can't judge someone on there age as some 13 yr olds take better care of there reptiles then alot of adults i have sold to. Thanks for reading hope it makes some think. My opinion is if the parents are aware and the child shows real signs of interest in the paticular reptile chances are there going to keep that reptile well and safe for years to come and may even show up on your door one day as a breeder as one has with me, This child has also produced me some amazing corns as well. I would just talk to his parents i am sure they are aware but make sure anyways it's safer for you in the end!!! as well as the reptile!!!!!!!

[lostwithin]

Hey, I must have misread the original post I understood it as longer then that. And if his story changes as you said it has then that would give you reason not too trust him and too pull out. If true "bibrons geckos" cannot be exported and he said he has that many of them would that not be a bit unbelievable? If its something that hard too get into captivity then not too sound offensive but how did somebody that young end up with them?? There are a few other things you mentioned that would make me doubt him, such as spending 250 a month, anybody ho can keep that large of a colonies would breed there own insects would they not ?? I only have one insect eating animal (ha ha makes me sound small, I don’t keep geckos right now mostly boids) and even I breed my own insects. As soon as he changed his story he discredited himself. Now it may be all very true, no matter how doubtful but I would definitely let him know he’s too young for you too sell too without parental consent. Still soften it up say its just a necessary thing you have too do ect ect . And then verify his story, I have also never heard of bibrons morphs. But like I said I’m not that into geckos. Nobody will blame you for being responsible and talking too the parents. Especially if the stories changed, and if the buyer really needs too add new blood (even if its with geckos that are related??) he wont argue with a simple phone call would he? The other thing I would do is start to through in the odd question too verify his stories, don’t flat out question him, but everything can be checked without seeming like you don’t belive him. Just act really interested in everything he’s saying. Ask him if he knows where it was he got his “true bibrons” because you might be interested in a few, ask if he’d be willing too sell maybe trade, you don’t have too actually follow through just one lengthy e-mail too see how he responds. Ask about his “tricks of the trade” Breeding info, where he found morphs and if he’s willing too sell some. What sort of incubator mix a few questions like that and a few you already know the answers too, and then a bunch of other just talking so its not just all questions. And see how he reacts. Also when did exporting bibrons become banned ? you could ask him (since he got them before the ban) and then e-mail the CITES and verify it, couldn’t have been long ago if he’s only 13. I’m not a deceitful person, but some situations call for a bit of that sort of thing. Ha ha ha .Good luck, seems like you’re in an annoying situation.
Devon

[spidergecko]

I wouldn't go so far as to say he was lying about the species of gecko. Turner's geckos are very similar to Bibron's in appearance and there is some thought that because Turner's overlap into Bibron's range (and not the other way around), importers have been shipping them, mistakenly, as Bibron's. Bibron's are not CITES protected but they are from South Africa and like countries like Oman, export is illegal but if the geckos had somehow travelled to a legal area, they could be collected. I think he is young and is less willing to accept that what he has are not Bibron's. It makes little difference to me since he is caring for them as Turner's. All the online literature that explains Bibrons' care is actually about Turner's gecko. I have a feeling he knows what he has aren't Bibron's and that he is trying to save face. Why else would he accept 15 geckos that may never breed with his?

Honestly, my mind says cut the deal loose and find another buyer. My heart says I shouldn't cut him off just because he is 13. At 13 even I stretched the truth now and then.

[Herpguy2004]

even know im young 18, i would have to agree and not sell it to him. there are responsible younger herp keepers out there but at 13 you cant legally work and that my present some problems when it comes to carring for them. i know when i was 13 i wanted a BP more than anything and almost bought one. now i know it would have been a bad idea. i knew alot but didnt have the resourse to care for it. im glad i waited to get one

[rwg]

Seems like you have 2 concerns. One for the wellfare of yor animals given that he's so young. I wouldn't hold his age against him in that respect (since we have so many first rate teenage keepers here as an exammple), but some of the other aspects you mention do seem suspect, so I think you should talk it out with him until you either feel comfortable with the deal, or decide to walk away.

The second concern you seem to have is a legal one. A 13 year old cant really be held to a contract. He's not old enough. I'd get the parents involved since they are the ones responsible anyway. This is the cost of being a minor, and if he's a responsible and experienced "breeder" as he claims to be, he'll understand that this is a legal formality you need to go through to protect yourself. If he cant understand this, you're better off not doing the deal anyway.

rg

[spidergecko]

Thanks to everyone who gave me input. I took your advice and my own instinct and decided I could not sell to the minor or his parents. I will put the ad back up in the classifieds.

EDIT: I did increase the price a little from the original but I added an OBO. I feel I am justified since I did put addition money into feeding/keeping them over the past few weeks. I don't want anyone to think I didn't sell to the minor just because I wanted to increase the price.

[JeffT]

Hey Mike, I was actually considering getting into Either Spider geckos or Namibs. Just curious though, If I were to approach you would you have a problem selling to me?

[spidergecko]

Originally posted by JeffT
Hey Mike, I was actually considering getting into Either Spider geckos or Namibs. Just curious though, If I were to approach you would you have a problem selling to me?

(Why do I feel like this is opening a can o' worms).

Yes, I would have a problem but I will explain why. Before I began selling reptiles - and keep in mind I don't sell many - I made it my own policy not to sell to any minors under any circumstances. Well, there are actually two exceptions: 1) I know the minor personally and trust him, or 2) I communicated through phone/email/etc., trusted the minor's abilities and met with a parent at the time of sale. Of course this means I would only sell to a local minor customer. The deciding reason I decided not to sell to the minor who I started this thread about is because of point 2. He was a seemingly knowledgeable person aside from a few things he said that confused me. But there was no way I would be able to meet a parent, trust it was a parent, or otherwise know I was speaking to a legitimate guardian without meeting face to face. The only reason I even stopped to think was that I believed in the kid and debated my own policy.

I know people sell animals to minors all the time and I know there are many minors in the business but this is a policy I have made and if I don't stick to it, my value as a "breeder/seller" is worthless. I may be the only person who feels this way but I'm not a business. I'm just a guy with a website and the occasional extra animal to sell. Will I lose potential buyers this way? Sure. But I'd rather lose them now than lose the animal and the money when an angry parent demands the money back.

[kap10cavy]

My 2 cents. I don't believe in seeling any live animal to a minor, to the parents, not a problem. My reason ? I got a call from a friend once about a savannah monitor found in a closet by the parents. The person that sold the animal asked a lot of questions to the kid that was buying it and he seemed like he knew a lot about monitors so the sell went through.
Well, the parents had no idea he had it. It was fed 1 pinkie a week (crickets make too much noise) had a peanutbutter lid for a water dish, newspaper for substrate, screen top and no light or heat source. I did my best to try to save the poor animal but it was too late. Kidney failure was already started and calcium deficiency was too far to save.
It's all about the animal, bottom line.

Scott

[geckomom]

And my 2 cents....even professionals have problems with these situations. I worked at a pet store years back - the store sold puppies (I won't even go into how that makes me feel in retrospect), and one night a brother & sister came in, with a middle aged women they said was their mother.

They bought a puppy, the "mother" signed all the papers/contract, they paid cash (the kids actually handed me the cash)....2 days later, on my day off, the boss calls me at home....the "mother" was a next-door neighbor, the kids' parents didn't know they'd bought a puppy, the kids were keeping it in a box in their room, and the REAL parents just wanted that @#$@#$ dog OUT OF THEIR HOUSE and their kids' money back!

Of course, we had to do a return/refund....VERY happy parents, the next-door neighbor "mother" denied being in on it (even tho her signature was all over the papers, she said the kids must have forged it), and the puppy was returned to the store covered in lice eggs! Which of course meant more money out the door in vet bills...much less the stress the puppy had been under.....

We even had parents wanting to return tropical fish their kids had bought....

There are a lot of very responsible, intelligent young animal lovers out there (I have 3 of my own), but....I think you did the sensible thing, both legally and for the welfare of your animals.

[lakeridgekennel]

I am only 17 and i am very experanced with reptiles but i understand where you are coming from but if you don't sell to him then he will just get it of some body else. So if you fax, email his parents a contract to sign and put in the contract that you will check on the reptile every 3 months for the first year and if he sell then he must notify you and you must have first refusal or if the animal gets sick he must give back the gecko if the sickness was his fault lack of heat or food ect. And he won't get any money back . But what you are doing is raciest because he is 13 doesn't make him incompatent and doesn't mean the reptile won't get a good home.
Just my 2 cents
Sean

[Jeff Hathaway]

Actually, it wouldn't be racist, it would be ageist:-).

Sean, something that you should realize, being the competent teen that you are, is that not all teens are like you. Since we make rules that fit the majority (or often the lowest common denominator, which is even more frustrating), those that are competent are often penalized. This applies to lots of things in life, btw!

The parents could really only sign a contract as you describe if they planned to be responsible for all of the things necessary to look after the animal. Odds are, they aren't.

"...but if you don't sell to him then he will just get it of some body else. " By this logic, why not sell cigarettes and alcohol to teens too? After all, they'll just get them somewhere else if one person doesn't.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[sapphire_moon]

Personally, even when I was underage, I wouldn't sell or encourage selling ANY animal to a minor!
Be it snake, lizard, or hamster!

I have seen kids get hamsters, throw them in boxes, with news paper, and some food and a BOWL of water, (hamsters suck at using bowls of water) they would get wet tail or drown and the parents would find out and demand a refund.

Not all teens are capable of properly taking care of the animals. And if they truely want the animal. then they can either wait, or get parental permission.

Plus you are making an oral contract with the minor, and minors are legally not allowed to enter into any kind of contract without parentel permission. (atleast in the U.S)