The cost of doing business???

[Jeff_Favelle]

I always knew that the price of snakes subsidized the shipping of them. I’ve been selling them for the better part of the decade, and I always figured that shipping costs incurred was just the cost of doing business; the price of production; part of the “input” for breeding snakes.

But is it? And if it is, SHOULD it be?

I mean, not many other products subsidize their own shipping and handling. Should the profit made from selling a captive-bred reptile (sellers and re-sellers of WC garbage should rot in heck, ha ha!) be the price minus the cost to produce AND to package/ship it? I’m not counting shipping as what Air Canada or WestJet charges to get a box from A to B. That HAS to be the customer’s dilemma. For sure. I’m talking about the packaging and delivery of the animal to the airport. Do people even realize how much that costs? Do they even care? Are they willing to pay it? If not, do you hide the cost of that into the animal, further driving the price up and making the buying public go elsewhere to some schmo who’s MORE than happy to actually sell an animal?

It’s a TOUGH one. No doubt.

But what is that cost? Is it significant? I think so. Obviously. Otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this. Let’s find out what it costs to ship and average shipment of snakes:

1 insulated reptile shipping box ($5) - and I get them at a VERY good deal
1 48-hour heat pack ($2)
1 gel pack ($1.50)
Newspaper (free)
Deli/shipping containers ($0.50)
Box labeling ($1)
Gas to get to the airport ($2)

Total = $12

This DOESN’T even include time ($20/hr??), ink for the printer for labels, tape for the box, or gas to get back home FROM the airport.

So say I ship about 60 shipments a year. That’s $720++ dollars I have to pay from my own pocket, just for the RIGHT to sell snakes. Seems like a lot. But its impossible to justify charging an extra $12 per order for “packaging and handling”, isn’t it? Some breeders already do it, but how many customers do they lose by doing so? Does it hurt or help the breeder in the long run? If I sell a pair of Jungles for $500, should I get $500, or should I get $488?

Not complaining, just thinking out loud. Ignore if you think I’m bitching about selling snakes, because if so, you missed the point entirely.

Thoughts other breeders? Buyers? Potential buyers?

Cheers.

JF

[Lisa]

I don't see a problem with a handling fee to go with the shipping fee... I know when I sell items on ebay i charge both shipping (actuall cost including insurance), plus a few dollars for handling which pays for the box etc. as for gas to go to post office, i swallowed that, usually cause I was going past there anyways. If i had to to go to toronto air port (2.5 hours away) i would charge something for that.

I know when I've bought snakes from breeders that had to ship I paid more then actual shipping charges. usually in the neighbourhood of 20 some odd dollars.

of course it makes a difference of what you're selling... if some one was dropping 20k on an animal i'd probably throw in shipping for free. what's the big deal with $100 on a 20k animal?

[corr]

I think it's the cost of doing business and it should be included in the price of the animal... because there are too many whiners out there that would see a charge like that (added to shipping or not) as just being gouged.

Jeff, it would be interesting to see what you ACTUALLY make if you added stuff like feeders, vet, hydro, water, a portion of property taxes/mortgage etc. etc...

[marisa]

I think it should be included in price of animal. Anyone who bitches about a 20 dollar more per say 300 dollar animal is too cheap to own reptiles anyway IMHO.

Marisa

[Jeff_Favelle]

I'm confused? Its should be included in the cost of the animal, meaning that I should charge $500 for a $500 dollar animal, getting $488 in actuality, or I should charge $512 for the animal and get $500?

Interesting.

Great post Lisa! :D

[Scales Zoo]

Jeff, you should get $488.

And me living in Leader, and having to drive to the airport, guess what, I only get $440.

When we can do 2 shipments at a time, we "save" some money - and can blow it on candy.

Ryan

[asphyxia]

IMO, its the cost of doing business (overhead), and a small price to pay for "Supplemental" income which may be tax free ;)

Besides, the expence of the shipping materials is a write -off any way.

Its also just easier, and to be honest not every breeder sells for the same price so it just may be included anyway.

What's next... are we lawyers and going to be charging for calls and consultations lol

Cheers
Brian

[Simon]

Jeff,

I most definitely agree with you.
Shipping and handling fees should be added. In our own opinion (as breeders and sellers) these costs should be added to the animals that we produced and offer to the public.

BUT I can definitely tell you that 80% of the time when you tell the buyer that you're going to do that, he/she backs out of the deal. We can't put the charge on the snake either, since most prices are not only set bu us. But by basically the market itself. Even though reputation does play a big part in this 'industry' that we have here, money plays a bigger part. If we did raise our price (say $20) dollars more than the market price, we'll be basically losing quite a big of buyers. Since there are always other sellers that will sell out an animal that is like half our price and doesn't even put that 'service charge' into consideration since they're only doing it one time only. As for you and me, where we are doing this for a long time are always the ones that has to suffer the lost.

So I agree with you Jeff about the 'extra charge' but this would greatly affect the demand of people. Since our price is mostly at the high end (hey you pay at you get). So increasing it more would just mean that our animals goes even slower.....

I agree that Marsia said 'Anyone who bitches about a 20 dollar more per say 300 dollar animal is too cheap to own reptiles anyway' but the truth is that....people are cheap. I have been dealing with a lot of customers who wouldn't even pay $5 dollars more....I offered $160 for a snake they they come back and tell me that the highest pay that he/she will pay is $155.....

So at the end Jeff....I think that we wont be able to charge this extra. $$ into the cost. We would be, but we'll lose more than the extra charge to cover those cost....

but this is all based on my own opinion....

[sara]

This is an interesting topic. Say you don't swallow the $12 in extra shipping charges, what's next? Will people start charging for the feeders the animal has gone through prior to shipping? Too many variables can complicate and even destroy a sale, so would the annual cost be enough to offset the potential loss of business? (assuming you aren't selling 20k animals) I'm just firing these off the top of my head so who knows...

[scalawag]

I say charge whatever gets you the profit you want, and what the market allows. If I go to Burger King, they don't add on gas that the 18 Wheeler burned geting to the store , napkins, ketchup packets, etc... They just charge what they can get. Maybe I'm naive but I would assume that someone who buys from a pro breeder would understand and appreciate the price. At least more than some one trying to bargain down $5 at a table at a reptile show from a local clown breeding out of a toolshed.

[marisa]

Nice post scalawag, although they most certaintly do charge for the trucks gas, kethcup and everything else, it's all included in the price.

My main point is this....lets say Favelle has one price list that says "Jungles 500....shipping extra + 15 handling charge..." or another one that says "Jungles.....515.00 + shipping" that to me seems more reasonable and easier to digest. its the exact same thing but to a buyer when you see extra charges tacked on, it looks worse. And if I want Favelles jungles, I'll pay the 515.

Its about profit, but EVERY business figures out what there cost is, and handling is certaintly an extra cost. So I think it should just be added into the price.

Marisa

[marisa]

One more thing to add:

Simon- I am afriad I will not be very popular as a reptile breeder, because if anyone came to me, and complained over 5 bucks, I would tell them where they can find that 5 bucks, and it wouldnt be pretty.

lol

Marisa

[Derrick]

well when you pack up your animals and head to a show do you raise your prices to cover the cost of the trip??? Charge what ever you want you'll find out soon enough how people feel about it

[Simon]

Originally posted by marisa
One more thing to add:

Simon- I am afriad I will not be very popular as a reptile breeder, because if anyone came to me, and complained over 5 bucks, I would tell them where they can find that 5 bucks, and it wouldnt be pretty.

lol

Marisa

LOL
Well to be honest I don't tell them directly. I just tell them in my heart...I mean..what is $5 dollars!!! Heck I think that the worst one was around half a year or so ago....when I had my snow corn for sale at $38 dollars....and that guy put down $35 and I said...well it's $38 dollars..that guy took the $35 dollars back and put my snow female down....and walked off......so a person would actually walk away from a buy for $3 dollars!!!!

Maybe its just me....

But really for me, myself as the buyer. If I wanted to get a quality animal from a reputable breeder, I wouldn't mind paying a few extra bucks more.

Say if I get anything from Jeff Favelle, Don Patterson, Roy Stockwell, Don Soderberg, Kathy Love, etc etc....I wouldn't mind paying that extra few bucks for transport and all for a quality animal. But a lot of people (espeically new herpers, sorry not directing at any new herpers) really do mind that extra cost and will get stuff somewhere else.

Heck I tried to put that extra cost on before (with the $10 dollars boxing fee) and people didn't like it and started emailing me about how stupid that was to charge an extra fee and all.....and that was around 2 years ago.....

[mykee]

IMO, I think that since you set the price for the animal, you then have the right to charge the buyer your out-of-pocket expenses (within reason of course, there was a post on this site a while ago, and the seller had an animal listed, stating the price for the animal, and quantified it by mentioning that the price was was it was due to the cost of food that the snake had eaten over X amount of time). Sorry, a rant of sorts.. Yes, you should get $500 when you charge $500 for said animal. If the buyer is willing to pay the cost of the animal, and then bitches about a $12 handling fee, then he can certainly find that animal elsewhere. You're not Wal-Mart (no offense) you're not taking in millions of dollars a year selling your wares, we're all grassroots, and at this level, these are costs that should not be 'bitten" by the seller.

[jparker1167]

I think that it should be added to the price, I would consider it part of the shipping price because you can't ship it without the reptile box, heat pad, gel pack ect.. why should you have to spend your money to ship the snake they want. whats another $10 - $20 when your paying $500, or you could split the $12 so you don't have to use as much of your money. I personally would pay the extra $12 interesting thread

[Matt_K]

Heck I think that the worst one was around half a year or so ago....when I had my snow corn for sale at $38 dollars....and that guy put down $35 and I said...well it's $38 dollars..that guy took the $35 dollars back and put my snow female down....and walked off......so a person would actually walk away from a buy for $3 dollars!!!!

Last show i had someone haggle with me over $2.. He was buying something for $5, and wanted it for $3.. Then opened it and said it was scratched.. I told him i would give him his $5 back and sell it to someone else for $3 since it was opened.. Needless to say, he took what he bought and walked away..

My main point is this....lets say Favelle has one price list that says "Jungles 500....shipping extra + 15 handling charge..." or another one that says "Jungles.....515.00 + shipping" that to me seems more reasonable and easier to digest. its the exact same thing but to a buyer when you see extra charges tacked on, it looks worse. And if I want Favelles jungles, I'll pay the 515.

I agree with that for sure.. I think a lot of people get frustrated when they see the + this and + that.. Just include your time ect. into the price and im sure you won't hear any complaints.. What's an extra $15-$20 for quality animals??

[spidergecko]

I would be willing to pay extra for box charges for quality animals.

Consider though, that you are arguing your amount of profit rather than an actual cost of the animal. I mean, a corn snake is cheaper to buy but requires the same care/work to get it to marketable size as some other expensive snakes. If you were shipping a corn snake and the cost of shipping/gas, etc. made it so that you lost money or broke even, that might be different. But at $500, the snake better be eating golden mice if you tell me you're losing money ;)

BTW, I don't know a corn from a python so replace these with the proper species to understand my point.

[NewLineReptile]

If the breeder was selling babies from his/hers breeders would the money from them not be enough profit. Or would he/she risk a sale for $12 Like others have said here some people will just back out of a sale if there are extra cost put in even if it is like a $12 extra fee.

Unless you really dont care if you herps sell fast or not then i guess you could charge what ever extra fee price you want.

Brandon

[Cruciform]

I'm definitely of the opinion that you figure out what the animal is worth, add the cost it would take to prep the animal for shipping, and that's your cost.

Why should the breeder lose profit, especially if they're operating on a small margin because they may not cut the corners someon else does to price their animals lower.

It was mentioned that doing this might drive away newbie buyers who just want to buy as cheap as possible. But if these people did their research they'd know what they're getting and who it's worth paying a premium to. If they haven't done any research, then you may actually lose money if they purchase something from you, kill it a day later or do something else to harm the animal, and demand money back or badmouth you on the BOI.

Either way, set your prices what YOU think is fair to you. If it means creating "shipping days" every once in a while, where you do a number of orders simultaneously so you can lower your price then go for it. If you have a higher price than your neighbor and still get regular sales, then hurray for that too.

I'm rambling now. I'm tired. :) But I think I made my point :)

[Cruciform]

spidergecko: say you have a breeding pair of BPs for a specific morph that cost you 5000 dollars, and the next year you get 6 babies. You want to recoup the initial expense as reasonably quickly as possible.

Compared to a corn snake you could say that the offspring are generating a lot of profit, but if the expense to create those offspring was significant then the profit margins could be considerably smaller percentage wise, impacting your ability to purchase more high end animals.

[spidergecko]

I know there are variables and of course, my reasoning doesn't necessarily apply to all cases but you understand what I mean. Theoretically, you could sell the six offspring for one sixth the cost of the parents + costs to raise the animal to marketable weight (+ box charge, haha). No one would do this of course ;) Not only would it bring the market price down but it would be down right silly.

But more to the point, it would only take a few sales, possibly even within the same generation, to recoup. Nonetheless there will be a time when you have recovered all you money but still sell the subsequent offspring for the original price. I know exactly what you mean, though.

But I will say this: If I buy a $5000 snake and the breeder charges me $5012, I'm looking elsewhere :D

[marisa]

Well that's a good point too.

With "expensive" animals, or at least ones above the $1000 mark, I'd say the breeders handling costs are well taken care of ;)

Marisa

[Nett]

I toally understand what ur saying Jeff........I am in the same boat but it cost me about 10.00 for gas since I am about 85km from the airport........But .......I really think that the handling charge is built into he cost of the animal same with GST (if u have to charge it ) ....Its more paper work for u at the end of the year but most of its a write off anyway and goes under ur expenses ....so u do see some of that money back .......
I think that if u start adding that additional charge to the cost of the animal (unless its a high end one) u will see people upset about it and u might have to be explaing urself all the time while trying to sell ........there are alot of people out there that already think we make tons of money and charge to much for our animals ..... with adding that extra charge u might just be adding extra problems....:confused:

So what I do with my pricing is I roughly take middle of the raod US prices.....convert them and add GST and the cost of cooler ect....then I round it up or down to the closest dollar ....I hate change ....LOL......It has worked out pretty well over the last 15 yrs but who is to say that I might end up shipping way more in the years to come ....Then I might have to rethink a few things...But I guess thats what set shipping days are for .......;)

[Stockwell]

Well, well well... good posts and good thoughts going on here!
There's a whole lot to consider in this business isn't there? And "herp selling for Idiots" is yet to make the bookstand. lol
All the issues discussed confront all herp breeders and can be quite perplexing, and really require quite a bit of thought.
It's not easy to be both a breeder and a marketing, customer service & shipping expert.
Generally speaking herpers are animal lovers and animal experts. Making the jump to sales, marketing and forwarding guru isn't exactly a logical or easy step.
As a crude analogy,very few professional breeders or zoologists are likely equally successful used car or life insurance salesmen, nor would they want to be.

Many herpers these days chose to sell the animals they produce directly to others that want them. Buyers obviously prefer direct interaction with the producer, but this technique of direct sales, is fairly new and done primarily to win the higher near retail price.
However, it comes with a cost as you are all discovering. It's not just the out of pocket costs of shipping, box building and gas to the airport..., its time... and time is money especially in todays busy world.
It's very difficult to be a basement breeder, and full service retailer if you also have full time day jobs in other fields. And herping full time, while being done by a few, and a very admirable vocation, is not the easiest way to make a living. And it's likely to get harder as captive breeding continues to grow and competition grows in step.

Contemplating all of this many years ago is in part what motivated me away from direct selling.
I found the hassles and time required was really taking the edge off my enjoyment of the animals.

For years I have preferred to have someone else sell my animals, as I just found I didn't have the time, or temperment to both breed and sell, and I had no intention of giving up my day job. There's alot to be said for a regular paycheck.
Of course it wasn't very long ago that there was no internet, and no such thing as websites, or shows for that matter.
It used to be the norm for herp breeders to ship animals to Tom Crutchfield, or Louis Porras' Zooherp, or some other wholesaler or retailer.
For years I shipped hundreds of animals to re-sellers in the USA, as there was no market in Canada
Most breeders did it that way because other than mailing out lists, there was no effective way to direct market animals, as communication was almost non existent because to do so cost a lot of money. Mailing,long distance call, adds in newsletters etc.
I remember the days of mailing out lists... It would cost quite a bit, and result in very few enquires. There is always a cost of doing business, and other than shipping, most of it should be invisible to the customer..
I remember waiting every spring year after year to get Bob Applegates list, but confess to never buying from him. He was both the pioneer captive breeder and pioneer direct retailer. He blazed the trail that many still follow

The advent of the internet has completely upset the normal distribution, market structure and pricing of animals.. It's all still unfolding, and there are both positives and negatives to this sudden change, which has cut out many of the middle men.
However this internet driven change to direct selling, is recently having an about face, as companies now are finding they can't effectively do it all.
OUTSOURCING is the big word these days.. This means producers of a product seek specific experties elswhere, and stick to doing what they do best.
I think that the evolution of the business of herpetoculture is still unfolding and yet to find an equilibrium.

I felt the frustration Favelle is feeling, many years ago, and that is what set me to "Outsourcing" the sales of my animals.

I think it's as true today, as ever that there is a place for specialized wholesalers and brick and mortar bona fide "retailers"
These guys fill a niche. There expertise is business and selling... They understand the dynamics of preserving markets and they are the onramp for most new herpers. They also showcase the animals breeders produce. Most breeders aren't zoos, and don't want the public in their facilities, but the public needs to see it somewhere to furthur promote sales.
I personally feel there is lots of room for more specialized herp stores, and herp wholesalers and distritutors to directly interface with both breeders and buyers.
Direct selling means holding animals, getting them feeding, sexing them, and addressing all the niceties of dealing with strangers. A breeder really has to weigh the perceived increase in profit against the convenience and real saving of moving out entire litters at once, if that option exists. Sure you take a smaller piece of the pie, but not as small as you might think.
Holding and feeding stuff for months, costs real money, in food ,housing and TIME. There is also a cost in terms of your mental well-being if you're sitting on hundreds of high maintenance babies.

The bottom line price of the animal to the buyer will continue to be the principle factor in the buyers eye, but in addition to that, the market price can rarely be higher than the going rate elsewhere, plus any currency exchange.
Unless you have an exceptional reputation for high quality, unique bloodlines or have some other good reason for demanding more, the lowest price for a comparable product, is generally what will always be sought by customers.
It's also important to recognize that low balling sets a price that from that day forward will become the market price..
It's important to have a marketing strategy and to try to avoid over producing only to flood a market that you'll then be tempted to low ball. That negatively effects all your peers, and sets the new market price. This is happening all over the US these days and is why the price of everything is dropping so dramatically. It all works out eventually, but the process can be painfull.
Breeders that find they just can't get enough to justy breeding , eventually stop.. Eventually the supply dries up until it meets demand.

In general one must always look to the USA to calculate herp prices, then add the exchange. Asking much more than that often turns buyers off.
What happens is that psychologically all buyers will weigh the cost of buying domestically to the cost of bringing one across the border. I regularly get mail from people inquiring about importing common stuff that Canada is full of.
Almost always the main motivation is the perceived lower cost. This is especially true now with the high value of the loony.
In the past I've even had perspective customers expect the US price at par, without any exchange.

Fortunately the herp industry is growing in Canada, and for that matter herpetoculture globally is growing and with it will be growing pains, as we all grapple with the diverse facets of the business.
Ultimately all businesses and markets find an equilibrium. This is the backbone of free enterprise.
The business of herpetoculture is still an industry in it's infancy, and as such we're all pioneers, but everyone that becomes a breeder is instantly a part of it, like it or not.
It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[djc3674]

I'd have to say, it's much easier to just include your "costs" into the end price to the consumer.

You have to admit though, even if you spent $15 dollars per snake shipped, (and this amount would stay the same for a pair as they would share the same box..right?) you are still making out like a bandit. I mean, how much money did it cost you for your male snake to impregnate your female? Probably not much, since you would have to care for them either way, weather you breed them or not. But for arguement sake, lets say it costs you $500 dollars from start to finish (give or take a few dollars). If you get 20 babies, that is 10 pairs. At $500 a pair, you have made back your money after the first pair is sold. The rest is all gravvvvy!!

So if it costs you lets say $20 dollars (and this is being generous) per pair shipped (not including shipping charges, the customer pays that) that is $200 total for supplies. The next pair is sold giving a profit of $300. Now the other 8 pairs ($3500) is all yours. I'd say it's well worth the "cost of doing business".

[VooDooMafia]

What it really boils down to is what do you have invested in the animal itself and how much profit do you want to make.

Lets just say it costs you $500 to keep a pair of your breeders for a year. They breed and have 10 or more babies. Now you get say $100 clear profit from the babies(after expenses of shipping).

Well you just made $500 tax free profit with the enjoyment of keeping animals you love. Now you do that with your collection and you just made some nice pocket change from your hobby.

Dont get me wrong I agree with on teh part with people selling alot of animals and that they are eating more of teh expences then the average buyer. But if you are selling that many animals then you are also producing that many more witch will increase your profit margine anyway.

Just my thought on things :)

[latazyo]

in business terms that's called overhead

your overhead will be the same, regardless of sales
you can evenly distribute the overhead costs to all of your products and estimate $12 overhead/shipment

if your overhead costs are hurting your profits a considerable amount, you may need to consider only having one shipping date per period to be determined by you in order to reduce your overhead costs per unit

otherwise, like most companies your overhead will be just that...a part of your cost of goods sold and how you account for it is up to you

when you order products from a dealer online you are not expecting to pay extra for the cardboard box they ship it in...they have already included that overhead cost into the price of their product

I would say that when you set the prices of your animals, you need to consider the overhead costs I've discussed and adjust your prices accordingly

does one snake actually cost 500 dollars to produce....probably not in most cases, so I would think that you could ask 500 and theoretically get 488

in the case of the $500 snake, unless the costs of the animal + labor + food + electricity + etc is equal to $488 or higher, then I'd say you've already accounted for your $12 overhead and that like any other company you have to accept fewer profits

[concept3]

if you guys are that hurtin for 12 bucks ill send it to you for nothing. lol im not being rude but obviosly if you are breeding and selling its not for unicef your making money. And i see your point you sell 100 reptiles a year thats 1200 bucks. All in all im pretty much saying its the cost of buisness.

[hip]

Excellent post Jeff helps get the majority of people thinking in a different light (breeders aside of course) If you look at it in a total cost stand point over a whole lot of animals it could be an alarming amount of money per year. Concept3 a lot of breeders make very little money when and if they do the bottom line at the end of the year cost versus sell. You have to figure in energy costs food costs meds housing costs and so on and so forth. Lets do a cost over sell for Colombian boas for example and see what we come up with(very rough figures) Energy consumption for one male and one female for one year $100.00 each give or take food bills for one year 2 Jumbo rats every 2 weeks @$3.00 each times 2 snakes $312.00(rabbits cost more) say one vet trip per year $150.00 Lets say the female drops 25 little ones and you hold on to them for 6 weeks to give them 4-5 feedings and a couple of sheds before selling them. Energy cost for each in an efficient rack system 50 cents each snake per week times 25 snakes times 6 weeks $75.00 four feedings each at 50 cents per feeding $50.00. Doing the math on the above we would get a total cash outlay of.

Parents inclusive costs per anum
$660.00

Offspring costs (ready to ship)
$125.00

Total outlay
$785.00 and that is if all the neonates ship out and you don't have to keep housing them and feeding them for any length of time.

$785.00 divided by 25 neonates equals $31.40 per snake plus $12.00 for packaging equals $43.40 per snake. Even if you got $150.00 on average per each this leaves $ 107.60 per snake. If we figure in our time based on what we make in our jobs (hourly or salary) the above $107.60 shrinks really fast and probably becomes a break even or a net loss. High end animals will net you more and cost you more. I take my hat off to all of the breeders here in Canada the majority of them do it because it is something they love to do and if they were in it for just the money we would currently have a lot less animals to choose from on the market and we would all suffer.


Hip

[BoidKeeper]

I'm confused? Its should be included in the cost of the animal, meaning that I should charge $500 for a $500 dollar animal, getting $488 in actuality,
That's how I look at it.
Incidently, BoidKeeper is now offering free handeling and packaging fees on all snakes. Translation: Cost for handeling and packing are included in my price.
Cheers,
Trevor

[gonesnakee]

Good post Jeff. Just by reading some of the replies I'll have to state that some people still don't get it. This talk of TAX FREE $ & "it didn't cost you nothing for the babies as you were keeping the parents anyway" etc. Some will always remain CLUELESS LOL People seem to forget that these animals were aquired as babies & raised for years prior breeding. I didn't see any examples involving $30-$50 snakes which make up large protions of most CDN Colubrid breeders collections. I make about $5 off a $30 snake if I am LUCKY. OVERHEAD is a big word that most people unless they actually understand business would never even consider. Glad to see the posts that make people think its not all gravy & the literally 100's of hours of work a month we put in might actually be worth something too. HECK Favelle aren't you a Millonaire already selling all those snakes for 100s of $ you must be. Good Reality Check Post. Mark

[Tim_Cranwill]

Great post guys!

I have spent $1000's (12-15?) on my collection/setup. That means animals, housing, heating, feeders, supplies, shipping, building supplies and so many little things that I can't even recall. That doesn't even TOUCH on the time that goes into keeping a medium-large collection and the offspring. And then there is the web site.... sure it's free because I know how to do it myself, but it takes time.... everything takes lots of time.... time and money. But hey, I love every minute of it.

But I agree full-heartedly that people don't realize the work and effort that go into this stuff. They just see the cutch of 20 babies worth $250 each and think it's all free money... not so much.

About the first topic of shipping costs... that's a tough one. I think it just has to be part of the cost of doing business. Just like the racks they live in and the food they eat... part of the cost. I suppose you could always say "will only ship on orders more than $500" or something like that but what will that do to your business? Who knows?

[Katt]

That's why you "full time breeders" ought to get a real job and a real paycheque. Bunch of lazy slobs.

>snicker<

I'm with Roy, selling to private people sucks b/c people suck. I'm in no ways a full time breeder, I keep my collection for myself, I lose money every year, hundreds even but hey, it's my hobby and I do have a full time job which I despise utterly, but it pays for the bills and let me keep my snakes for myself, instead of relying on them to pay for themselves and my own livelihood. I can't deal with the stress of a unreliable monetary source.

I'm mostly a buyer rather than a seller and I can tell you, that seeing extra charges tacked on gets my goat. When I see snake for X amount, I want to pay X amount plus Y for shipping from AC, WestJet or whoever and I already know their shipping rates. I don't want to buy a snake and then the buyer say, hey, I need $12 to pack it all up. It just seems like money grabbing to me. Just include it in your price for goodness sakes!

Thing is snakes aren't *that* hard to breed. Some one like myself who has just a few litters each year, can undercut any large scale breeders b/c I don't have to recouperate any costs. I just wake up at 5am, go to work, and get paid every two weeks anyways. However, b/c I know a lot of breeders and don't want to piss anyone off, I price what I have according to the market, and sell cheap to people I know and like. However, not everyone is going to be nice and not step on the breeders' toes.

It's the buyers who rule the market, not the sellers. That's why dollar stores are so popular. No one thinks of the behind the scenes. All they think is, I want to save as much as possible and get what I want. You will cut yourself at the throat if you tack on more charges to people who are already taxed to death.

Breeders can go on and on about how they have to pay for this and pay for that, but you weren't forced into it. Companies fail to thrive all the time, and no one will weep if someone doesn't make it.

Anyway, this turned out a bit long, and for anyone who didn't get it. I was joking in the first paragraph.

I surely admire you full time breeders. Business and salesmenship just aren't my gig. That and having to wait for snakes to breed and lay eggs so that I can put food in my belly, is just too unreliable to me. Best of luck to those of you have chosen that way.

[Vanan]

Excellent posts Unkie and niece! Couldn't have said it better!

At least more than some one trying to bargain down $5 at a table at a reptile show from a local clown breeding out of a toolshed.

I, for one, happen to know a very reputable breeder who just happens to breed from a shed outside. Not everyone with a "facility" or "zoo" (so they say) is a good breeder. That statement seems too judgemental and stereotypical.

[Derrick]

It also hard to garner sympathy for your shipping expenses when breeders make post like this.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44779

I realise most snakes dont generate that kinda cash but to go from "one of these gets me one of these" (pastel=overhead projector) to should I charge for handling fees???

A minimum order that you feel make it worth you time may be the way to go.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Marisa rules, plain and simple. Ha ha! :D

Simon- I am afriad I will not be very popular as a reptile breeder, because if anyone came to me, and complained over 5 bucks, I would tell them where they can find that 5 bucks, and it wouldnt be pretty.

[Jeff_Favelle]

IMO, its the cost of doing business (overhead), and a small price to pay for "Supplemental" income which may be tax free

Small price to pay? $720 (minimum) isn't a small price to me. That's 1/2 a mortgage payment. That's 2 car payments. That's 2 months of food groceries. That's 1/3 of my new projector + screen (heh heh). That's 5 months of gas for my car.

And what if it isn't "supplimental" income? What if its a person's SOLE income. Mine isn't tax-free. I claim it.

Mmmm......candy. They have candy in Sask Ryan?? ;)

[Jeff_Favelle]

well when you pack up your animals and head to a show do you raise your prices to cover the cost of the trip???

Yep. Shows are RETAIL transations and each animal is around 10-15% higher. Go to ANY show and look at the prices, then look at a breeder's site for SIMILAR QUALITY and it'll be slightly higher. Always has been. There will be exceptions with people that have no name and can't move animals other than a show, but generally its a little higher at a show.

[Jeff_Favelle]

IMO, I think that since you set the price for the animal, you then have the right to charge the buyer your out-of-pocket expenses (within reason of course, there was a post on this site a while ago, and the seller had an animal listed, stating the price for the animal, and quantified it by mentioning that the price was was it was due to the cost of food that the snake had eaten over X amount of time). Sorry, a rant of sorts.. Yes, you should get $500 when you charge $500 for said animal. If the buyer is willing to pay the cost of the animal, and then bitches about a $12 handling fee, then he can certainly find that animal elsewhere. You're not Wal-Mart (no offense) you're not taking in millions of dollars a year selling your wares, we're all grassroots, and at this level, these are costs that should not be 'bitten" by the seller.


GREAT post Mykee. I agree, for sure. But its going to be hard to convince the buying public, ha ha!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great posts Annette and Roy! AND Cruciform! Thanks for taking the time to reply! You gyus rock. Input is all I asked for, and you guys gave it in spades!

Much appreciative. :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

I agree for the most part latazyo. With everything EXCEPT this line:

when you order products from a dealer online you are not expecting to pay extra for the cardboard box they ship it in...they have already included that overhead cost into the price of their product

I order stuff for my real job EVERYDAY. I'll show you the invoices because we get DINGED for EVERYTHING. Boxes, packing peanuts, bags, everything. No question. I order computer parts for myself and friends online every day. We get charged for EVERYTHING. Always. Its never been a question of not being charged. Almost every industry does it. Go to any wholesaler or retailer and look at their order invoices. You'd be surprised at what they get charged for to bring stuff in.

I agree with the overhead stuff though. That's the stance I've taken the last 10 years, but I thought this would be a fun discussion and an eye-opening topic for people who seem to think we are "cleaning up" in terms of money.


Cheers.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Excellent post Jeff helps get the majority of people thinking in a different light (breeders aside of course) If you look at it in a total cost stand point over a whole lot of animals it could be an alarming amount of money per year. Concept3 a lot of breeders make very little money when and if they do the bottom line at the end of the year cost versus sell. You have to figure in energy costs food costs meds housing costs and so on and so forth. Lets do a cost over sell for Colombian boas for example and see what we come up with(very rough figures) Energy consumption for one male and one female for one year $100.00 each give or take food bills for one year 2 Jumbo rats every 2 weeks @$3.00 each times 2 snakes $312.00(rabbits cost more) say one vet trip per year $150.00 Lets say the female drops 25 little ones and you hold on to them for 6 weeks to give them 4-5 feedings and a couple of sheds before selling them. Energy cost for each in an efficient rack system 50 cents each snake per week times 25 snakes times 6 weeks $75.00 four feedings each at 50 cents per feeding $50.00. Doing the math on the above we would get a total cash outlay of.

Parents inclusive costs per anum
$660.00

Offspring costs (ready to ship)
$125.00

Total outlay
$785.00 and that is if all the neonates ship out and you don't have to keep housing them and feeding them for any length of time.

$785.00 divided by 25 neonates equals $31.40 per snake plus $12.00 for packaging equals $43.40 per snake. Even if you got $150.00 on average per each this leaves $ 107.60 per snake. If we figure in our time based on what we make in our jobs (hourly or salary) the above $107.60 shrinks really fast and probably becomes a break even or a net loss. High end animals will net you more and cost you more. I take my hat off to all of the breeders here in Canada the majority of them do it because it is something they love to do and if they were in it for just the money we would currently have a lot less animals to choose from on the market and we would all suffer.


Hip



Hip rules! :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Exactly Mark I!!! That's why I specifically said for people not to reply if they thought I was just bitching about making money off of snakes. They missed the point entirely.

Thanks Mark. Ha ha, I'm not even a "Thousandare" yet, LOL!

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's exactly what I wanted to hear Katt!! I'm not complaining, I just wanted FEEDBACK. You know, what people THINK about the subject. Market research if you will.

Thanx for replying. You've further re-affirmed what I've been doing the last 10 years, and that's just that its the "cost of business", like feeding and stuff. It sucks, but its a part of the life of being a breeder.

Cheers! :)

[MouseKilla]

So many awesome posts!

I've read a lot here about what a lot of customers "just don't understand" about the business but what I would like to add is what a lot of sellers, of all sorts of products, don't seem to understand, that is: customers don't have to understand.

The customer doesn't care anymore about the expenses you incur producing the animal than you do about the cost of farm machinery when you buy bread.

It's kind of a bogus topic in a sense because in reality if you were able to somehow produce your animals for half the price of that other breeders are paying (say you learned to shoplift feeders or steal electricity, whatever) you would have no reason to drop the price.

Think about it, when General Motors closes a car factory in Michigan that was paying each employee $25/hr and moves it to Mexico where they pay $25 per day do they suddenly cut their prices proportionately? Of course not.

Demand sets the price, competion suppresses it and that's all there is to it. Products are not sold for the lowest price a seller can "afford" but instead for as much as the customer will pay, no more, no less. If it costs one producer more to get his product to market than others he will simply make less money. Breeders in Toronto will always make more than those in Weyburn, Saskatchewan for this reason.

Whether or not you decide to itemize your sales receipts is up to you, add shipping, feeders, electricity, time and whatever you like but the customer will only be looking at ONE number: the final price.

[Derrick]

Well if all the good breeders would get on the same page as to a standard "handling" charge it wouldnt have to suck and the customer wouldnt have a choice in the matter it would just be the way it is.

I'ld say form an assosiation but in an industry like this I can be far more BS than its worth.

[nita]

Although I have yet to have an animal shipped to me most places quote $100.00 for shipping. Yet others say that the airline only charges sixty something. Personally I like to pick up my animals some way to cut that out anyway. A trip to calgary or out to a show the breeder is planning on going to anyway. Depends on how far I'd have to drive and what is out that way, I have family up in BC so for me a trip out there serves two purposes, visit family and pick up the snakes. If I was ordering though from further I would have no prob paying a set shipping and handeling fee. Then again I'm willing to drive down to the states to get GTP's from Greg Maxwell eventually too, even though it will be a pain in the butt for paperwork and all, it is worth it for the animals you get.

[Jayson]

I decide how much i want to make on the animal, then all other expences are add into the price.
As soon as you start to compete against prices you loose. The reason is that there will always be someone out there cheaper then you.
So your job as a buisness person is to sell a great high quality animal, not a cheaper animal. (Its called marketing) you want to convince the consumer that they are getting the best animal out there.

[Scales Zoo]

No Jeff, no candy in Saskatchewan, but we have to go to Alberta to ship out snakes.

If you are looking for honest opininons, then I think that tacking on money to package a shipment is just wrong. I am not meaning to offend anyone in the next portion of my reply - but this is my deep honest opinion on things.

Maybe I still view this as a hobby - but I've never gotten how some people will look at and apply standards from other industry practises on to it. Deciding the proper price for an animal is another one I've debated on before. You know, C.B balls are $150 in Calgary, don't sell them for less than that etc...

Another thing. Your the only person I thought I knew who put the prices up on their snakes for a show. Who else does this (in Canada)? I remembered thinking that was odd at the time (before Red Deer last year, you mentioned higher prices in your adds before the show) I am not giving you a shot, I just was curious who also does it.

Because we are more remote, we feel the added costs a bit more. With the price of gas now, it costs us about $60 / trip. I would not deliver 1 cornsnake to the airport.

I will do the drive, however, for indigos, diamonds or blackheads (in the future).

If $12 adds up so much with jungles, why not get diamonds. I guess I look at it a bit simple at times, but.

Flooding the market with certain species has been mentioned a bit already - but what happens if you can't sell all your jungles at the price you want. I know someone who didn't sell out of last years stock, and they were priced lower than yours.

People would probably pay more for Jungles by Jeff Favelle, than Jungles by Dallas Winslow (made the name up, i hope).

I might too, unless Jeff Favelle charged $12 to box up snakes and run to the airport.

Ryan

[Lisa]

Seeing a shipping and handling charge isn't uncommon in many businesses. Now one thing I've noticed is that many of the big companies offer free ground shipping (future shop) but I'm guessing they've negotiated some sweet deal with UPS or some other shipping company.

Like I said on page one, I have no problem paying for a handling fee, how ever I do have issues with people/companies that charge a handling fee when you pick up the item/pet.

[BoidKeeper]

What's next charging for care sheets on your website? If anyone would ever do that it would be just wrong.
Cheers,
Trevor

[sSNAKESs.com]

Your selling the animal for market value... There are deductions in ANY business that you have, you will never be reimbursed for. For example, I do drywall for a living... I get the rate that is a standard pay (same as union) and never get paid for gas that gets me to work so why should people as breeders expect to be paid to get the animals (which is your job) to the airport?? Its just a cost that you must incure if you plan on selling animals to people that are not local to you or just mark the animal up to a nice round number like $525 instead of $500 and be done with it... Thats my 2 cents.

[djc3674]

why should people as breeders expect to be paid to get the animals (which is your job) to the airport??

Well, I guess some people are penny pinchers :confused:


This talk of TAX FREE $ & "it didn't cost you nothing for the babies as you were keeping the parents anyway" etc. Some will always remain CLUELESS LOL People seem to forget that these animals were aquired as babies & raised for years prior breeding. I didn't see any examples involving $30-$50 snakes which make up large protions of most CDN Colubrid breeders collections. I make about $5 off a $30 snake if I am LUCKY.

Well there is your problem, you are selling low-end reptiles, so how much do you expect to make? The cost of caring for a Colubrid vs (lets say a GTP) probably are not that much different. I can't give exact numbers cause I don't keep either. But common sense tells you that if each enclosure has a heat light, heat pad, water bowl, & substrate, they must be pretty close in comparison. Oh wait a GTP requires higher humidity, so you better recoup the cost of a spray bottle and all that water your gonna go through!!
Then add in food. Again not sure exactly how much each of them eat, but it can't be too far off. For arguement sake, lets say it costs $700 for a year rasing a breeding pair of Corn snakes and $1000 a year for a pair of GTP's. The return on a litter of GTP's is drastically greater. I believe they sell for $500-800 each (correct me if I am wrong).

It's kinda like a car dealer that sells Chevy Cavaliers vs a car dealership selling BMW's. You dont have to sell nearly as many Beemers to make a profit as you would on a Chevy Cavalier, but the cost of running each dealership is probably very close in comparison.

As far as raising these snakes from babies. Isn't that what the hobby is about??? If I ever breed my BCI, I am not going to put the cost of the last 3 years of caring for him, into the cost of the babies. That's just down right greedy!!! There is a fair market value for baby Colombian BCI's. That's what I would charge. I would make a grand or so off of a litter and I would be more than happy with that. AND THE MONEY WOULD BE TAX FREE (directly into my pocket).

Now, I understand that a large scale breeder has much higher overhead. BUT, they also have a more diversified product line. Which in turn would allow them to profit more on some animals as they would on others. I am willing to bet Bob Clark did not get to where he is from being petty. Sometimes as a business person, you have to suck up some of the "little costs" to help with future business. (ie repeat customers & word of mouth advertising.) Just my thoughts.

[latazyo]

Boidkeeper- I was referred to a site that requires a paypal donation to access a caresheet...pretty lame if you ask me...

anyways...I'm new to reptiles, but as an experienced aquarist, I am quite used to online vendors charging standard 10-15 dollars for "box charge", so it's not so uncommon in other trades

[Jeff_Favelle]

If $12 adds up so much with jungles, why not get diamonds. I guess I look at it a bit simple at times, but.

I work with Jungles because I like to work with them, not because I can make more money with them than another snake. If I wanted to work with Diamonds, I walk down the block to Don's house and grab a bunch. Or I could have gotten in on them when he brought them in years ago. But they don't appeal to me and I'm not about to work with them to make my bottom line higher.

That's not the point of this post. The point of this post was to ask whether or not the selling of the snake or snakes should subsidize the packaging and delivering of them to the airport. It was an honest question that a LOT of people had thoughts on. Obviously it doesn't add up to "too much" for me because if it did, I would have been shipping CB reptiles across Canada for the last 10 years. I'm fine with it. I was thinking out loud to my fellow herpers in North America and beyond to get some market feedback for free. That's why I love this site. Instant feedback from the very people that drive/create the market.

Nothign wrong with that.

[Retic chic]

The cost of doing business is one factor in almost all of our reptile dealings. Shipping costs are the responsibility of the purchaser as far as airline transport goes. The costs of packaging and transport to the airport are something we have learned to deal with. The nearest airport is 160 km away, 1 way. I cant imagine asking the buyer to pay the extra $60 for fuel that it will cost us to get to the airport (yes, I know the truck sucks up gas). That is also why we do not sell corns and other common colubrids anymore...a $100 snake would cost me $60 to get it to the airport, and the buyers grumble enough about shipping costs already.
We also factor this in when we purchase snakes, what the purchase price is for the snake, what shipping will cost, and the costs for us to go to the airport to pick it up. Sure, if we lived in the city we would save some money on trips to the airport, but it would be spent elsewhere on housing and higher costs of living.

The cost of doing business, as you say.

[YummyCdnMale]

In the end retailers and wholesalers think of it this way...... You get what you paid for! if you see a ball python for lets say 50$ and the next guys selling them for 150$ sometimes it's the guy at 50$ just simply don't know what he's doing and is underselling himself but most times they do know why there snakes are so cheap! And there not saving you any money there just unloading there crap at any cost literaly. When your snake eventualy breeds and the patterns etc etc are just not up to standard you to will be selling those 50$ pythons eventualy because no one want's them (atleast no one that knows ball pythons) Jeff does have some decent pythons i am not going to trash him in anyway but there are some people with nicer!.. but with nicer always comes a price1 after all mcdonalds don't discount there hamburgers just because burger king did. Because the majority and demands with mcdonalds. Alot more goes into breeding then one thinks and sometimes the costs of breeding etc is way more then the actual purchase. what happens if the parents took 5 yrs to actualy breed?! let's remember alot of the breeders have these snakes for the soul purpose of breeding may it be 2-3 yrs ... 3 yrs is 156 weeks at 2$ a week to feed we will say so we are at 312.00 for the male and 312.00 for the female in 3 yrs now add the vet trips the heating device any lighting your time to care for the snake among other things not to mention the stress of running these operations. As far as shipping goes it's roughly 65.00 to ship and i have had someone want 2 rat snakes shipped to B.C now i sell the pair at 75.00 but shippings 65.00 would'nt it be more worth your while to go to your local dealer and purchase the 2 ratsnakes rather then ship them?.... I thought that way as i sell my rat snakes in store at 49.99 but talking to many people on snakes .com i am learning these snakes are being sold as high as 125$ each in local petshops should i raise my price?... Are those rat snakes worth more then mine? do they have gold fangs? lol can they dance? sing me a song?.... no it's taken into account there overhead there boarding of the snake and what they paid. Most petshops though don't buy unless there geting a deal and most don't know a ratsnake from a cornsnake! it's all about set prices typical ball pythons sell where i am for 125$ anywhere may it be through me or a petshop 125$ is the price in mtl I sell mine for 99$ - $175 depending the color the length the sex and breed, there's many factors in buying the right snakes and i guess it's better to shop around before buying this way you can maybe have the best deal but remember people in the end your really geting what your paying for because a good business man and not in it for the hobby will always think about cash before the actual transaction. One last tip i have bought about 15 snakes through pics then being shipped i have yet to recieve a snake that actualy looks like the pic i seen of the snake!!!!! It's not only about cost of doing business but buyer beware .... So i end this note on this : If your paying high and buying from someone with a good reputation chances are your geting what you pay for and actually geting the snake that you seen at first through pics as they are a business and would'nt be in business long if they played those types of games with customers because customers always right after all they are your business!

thanks for reading hope it makes some sense!

Rob.. : mtl_reptiles@hotmail.com

[Scales Zoo]

Jeff, who else charges more for their snakes at shows, than on their websites or in classifieds.

We also look at doing shows as a "cost of doing business".

Ryan

[Lisa]

I often see price breaks for shows.

[jwsporty]

Great thread...I feel that if you are willing to buy an animal from an individual and you are happy with their terms of sale, then it shouldn't be a problem. Jeff, you had mentioned at the beginning that not many businesses subsidize shipping. Too a certain degree this is true, but anyone in business who receives inventory, of any form, will likely take a percentage of the cost of shipping and it will be added into the final asking price of a product. So under these circumstances, the consumer is subsidizing the shipping., whether they know it or not. In a retail situation, it is expected that the customer will come to your store to purchase your goods. You have already determined a landed cost of goods and applied the appropriate markups to maintain a proper gross profit. Either they accept your pricing policies or they don't. But if someone wants a product shipped to them then that is an added cost and the purchaser normally picks up the tab.

Personally, I have no problem about box charges or incurred costs to pick up an animal, if it means that I am getting what I want in a timely fashion, and from someone I can trust to do business with. I would have already read the TOS, agreed to it, and accepted the charges.

Should a breeder charge, these box charges? Everyone has the right to conduct business as they see fit. I believe most people who keep any form of pet, realize that overhead is involved to bring an animal or product to the market or to safely ship to the destination.

Of course the goal is to reduce your cost of goods, so that the profit margin can been raised. That comes down to doing business, ethically and efficieintly. Should it be considered a standard to either charge or not charge a box fee? I don't think this could be done effectively. Too many variables.

The way I see it, what do the offspring REALLY cost? Before you feed them..when you think about it..they really don't cost you anything!! The parents were bought and paid for, and from there you anticipate on getting back a return in the first one of two clutches to cover the initial cost of the parents. So the initial investment really is still there, less the food required to get the parents to breeding age. Add to that the incurred equipment costs to hatch and raise the offspring to market size. Once those first one or two clutches hatch out and are sold, you still have the parents, and the equipment. So what are you out of pocket? The hydro and food, both are items that are expected in this hobby anyhow.

In many cases, these expenses are easily offset in the final asking price of the animal. Not many products give back as good of a return as reptiles. ;) In the big picture, I think subsidized costs (ie. box charges, show charges, incurred gas and transportation charges) really depends on the value of the animal(s) being brought to the market or the size of the deal. Agreed with Ryan, in his situation, there would be no sense in selling a corn snake for 60 bucks only to have to spend 60 to get to the airport.

There is nothing wrong with fair market value but if a good deal comes along..hey I won't pass that up either..;)

Peace
Jim

[Jeff_Favelle]

Flooding the market with certain species has been mentioned a bit already - but what happens if you can't sell all your jungles at the price you want. I know someone who didn't sell out of last years stock, and they were priced lower than yours.

I hear ya on that one brother. I had 2 people email me by the end of last summer wondering how I sold all mine. I was priced at LEAST 10 percent higher than they were as well. I have no idea why they couldn't sell them. It'll be interesting this year as well. I'm not worried in the least, and I'm even trying to move stock for other fellow breeders. Hard work and patience is all it takes. If people can't house and feed baby snakes for up to 6-9 months, then they shouldn't be breeding them.

But we digress....

Thanks for the input guys, keep it coming! I can't believe we've had a meaningful discussion over 5 pages and no one has gotten personal, attacked anyone, been banned, gotten mad, etc etc. Especially a post that I STARTED, ha ha! I must be losing my touch...............;)

I agree, and have agreed for the last decade (longer?) that its a "cost of doing business". Overhead if you will. Heck, when I was still in university a while back (don't as how long), that was when I first started breeding reptiles and amphibians. I had frogs and colubrids and salamanders and Leo Geckos and Day Geckos etc etc. I would go to school every day until 3pm, then I would come home and deal with all the animals (I rented TWO rooms in a 6-bedroom house with 4 other students). On Saturday and Sunday, I would trek ALL ACROSS Vancouver, Surrey (yikes!), Abbotsford, Langley, North Van. Po-Co, and even Vancouver Island selling CB animals to all the pet stores. I MAILED (this was before I even HEARD of the “Net”) price-lists and newsletters about what I had and was going to have for sale. Then I would get calls every day/night for animals wanted and I could get them all ready for the Saturday and Sunday journeys. I would HAND DELIVER the freeeakin’ animals! Leo Geckos were $125 (heh heh) and Day Geckos were $150 (again, heh heh) and I had corn snakes, Cal. Kings, Mantells, Fire Salamanders, Pueblans, Kenyan Sand Boas, etc etc. I probably spent more money on gas and bus tickets than I ever made, ha ha!

But that’s what started it. And I never added a shipping cost or a packing cost. I still haven’t charged for packing to this day, as I’ve lumped that together with feeding, electricity, etc etc. But I was just curious to know if people even KNEW the costs incurred. I mean, if I told someone that they had to give me $720 every year to have their life the EXACT same way because it was some unknown “tax” on their occupation, they would slit my throat! But hey, the customers dictate the market on items that are readily available. I’m sure if I had Pastel Pied Albino Ball Pythons, I could charge for digi-photos of the damn things! Ha ha! J

Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone, especially the people who took the time to think it out and write something legible and eloquent. That means a lot to me. It means a lot because it shows that you were willing to take the time to express your feelings and thoughts when you could have easily ignored me. For that I thank you. Cheers.

Great post jwsporty.

[marisa]

Good posts everyone. One thing I DO NOT agree with was this statement:

"It also hard to garner sympathy for your shipping expenses when breeders make post like this."

In relation to Favelle posting about a new "toy" he will be purchasing with some profits off snakes. Why is it hard for you to give him "sympathy" as you call it? Do you get angry at Ford when the head guy buys a new house? LOL. If you invented Ford, YOU'D have that house. If you had the collection Favelle does, then YOU'D have the projector.

All I am saying is do not allow material jealously to come in the discussion. If many of us were on the other side of the stick, we'd have different outlooks on what should be charges and what shouldn't be.

Another thing I am suprised to see is some people saying there is little to no cost once to produce snakes once you have gotten a clutch or two....this is just CRAZY talk! If my snakes breed or not, they cost me the same as they day I got them to upkeep aside from their own purchase price. Every week someone needs something else, and these purchases add up to a lot at the end of a year. And then you decide to breed, and the year you are breeding will cost you FAR more than years you do not. Then you add in money for your time???? Holy cow...! It seems some people are still looking at reptiles like the "get rich fast" type of business.

Marisa

[jwsporty]

Marisa,

I think you misunderstood what I am saying.

Of course the collection will always cost you money. And yes, you would have to feed the parents to get them to breeding age, regardless. Whether you breed or not on any given year is not the issue, the food and consumable bills will still be there. What was said is ultimately the day the eggs pop out, the hatchlings have not cost you anything but the time, effort and funds to get the parents ready. Obviously once they are living animals then the cost on that animal starts. Most offspring will consume what food is needed to get them off to a good start before they are either sold to wholesalers,petstores or private individuals. So the hatchling cost still remains relatively low.

The fact remains, you still have the parents, you still have your initial equipment, and now you have the babies to sell. This is not crazy talk. It really depends on how you want to look at it. Just like in any business, equipment (or animals in this case) simply becomes tools of the trade and assets to the company. Once they outlive their usefulness then they are disposed of. Naturally there is a cost associated to hard goods like hatchling racks, tupperware, bowls, etc. but if amoratized over the life of its usefulness, represents a small part of the overall investment. All that has to be taken into consideration when doing the math.

The short sighted view is "It's costing me all this money to get things going" The long sighted view is "All this money I am spending will pay returns downstream". If anyone is in it for the quick buck, then they will get their eyes opened pretty fast.

Regarding the "get rich quick" type of business. I won't disagree, that there are many in the hobby who are in it for the money only or under the impression that herp breeding is the" be all end all" to financial success. But realistically how many animals will they have to sell to get rich. Resellers, will pay a premium for the animal in the hopes of moving it at a higher price, there's a risk in its own. Importers may have to put out huge chunks of cash to buy inventory from overseas and of course there are many risks there as well. Retailer have their overhead to deal with. Anyway you want to move animals, is still going to require a certain amount of financial output, dedication and effort. Very few people actually make a decent living doing nothing but selling animals they produce. I am sure you are well aware of the fact that most people in this and other forums, do have day jobs, and that their other "job" (keeping of herps) starts either before the 9:00 am whistle or after the 5:00 pm trek home. I don't see many getting rich here.

Anyone who keeps a collection for breeding, will pay dearly in maintenance, dedication and sacrifice in both time and resources. Large or small, the demands on every breeder are high. But I truly believe that those people that breed, do it for the love of the species and the experience learned. As far as I am concerned it is one of the best hobbies anyone can get into. Always something new to learn, always something to do, always something to experience, always someone new to meet.

If you are able to offset your costs and your time, and maybe make a profit in the process, then that's great! There is nothing wrong with being rewarded for our efforts. But I would never consider this to be a "get rich quick" scheme.

Likewise I would never fault anyone for buying the things they like just because they were successful in what they did or do. We all have a right to the finer things in life. It is up to the individual to make it happen. That goes for anything in life, herping included.

Peace
Jim

[Jeff_Favelle]

I don't think that the cost to produce one clutch can be factored into it. Because the cost to produce one clutch of Pied Ball Pythons is the same to produce a clutch of normal Ball Pythons, given that the snakes are already in your possession.

Ha ha, thanks for the vote of confidence Marisa! :-) The reason I posted about the projector was actually 2 fold. One, I was pumped about getting it as I've been researching it for some time. But more importantly, I was trying to drum up interest for higher-dollar animals in Canada. People in the country are cheap. No question. Animals over $500 do not move fast in Canada. Much like on the SnakeKeeper's site, I was trying to show the possibilities of what can happen if you make an investment with the right animals. I bought a Pastel for $1500 from Mark Mandic (thanx buddy) and in 8 months it bred and produced 2 clutches, generating $7,000. This year, its produced $8,000 worth of Pastels already, with 30 more eggs to hatch. Even if the price drops in HALF for Pastels, it'll still produce $15,000 worth of animals! That's insane. People looking for their hobby to support itself of to generate some serious side income have to realize that its there for the taking. I always look back at Trev's (Boidkeep/Chewie) signature. "Keep doing what you're doing, keep getting what you're getting". Its so true. Think Corey and Mark and Don and Henry and Mark I. and Craig were just content to sit back on their laurels? Nope. They had visions of taking the next step(s), and they did.

I was just trying to show people what's possible with a tiny investment. I don't really care how people took it though. But I know for pretty much certainty that I won't have any Pastels for sale past October this year, LOL! The resonce was phenomenal.


Also, people keep talking about how much work and time it takes to keep care of snakes (reptiles). That may be true for like 1000 animals, but really, its not THAT much work. Having a few Ball Pythons, a couple pairs of boas, some Carpets and maybe a few colubrids that could generate over $40,000 a year easily isn’t that much work. Maybe ½ hour a day if set up correctly. Its really amazing what can be done with breeding a few select animals. It’s a hobby with unlimited potential. That’s why I love it. And even though I’d do it if there was zero or minus money involved (which I did for 10 years), its nice to have the hobby supports itself, and by chance, support not having to work as hard in life to be able to enjoy it even further.

That’s totally cool in my mind. I don’t know how you could argue with that!

Cheers all!

[jwsporty]

Well said Jeff, It all comes down to how efficiently you want to do things. All the best with your efforts. My pastel year will be next year..fingers crossed..;)


Jim

[Jeff_Favelle]

Fingers crossed for you too buddy! Make it happen. There's so much potential there, it'd be a crime not to try!

Cheers my man.

[Derrick]

hehe Marisa in regards to the
"It also hard to garner sympathy for your shipping expenses when breeders make post like this."

comment I was just making a point that the 12 bucks shipping could be seen as kind of petty after a post like that.

Anyway anyone who knows or has dealt with Jeff know that he is a great guy to deal with. All the time he spent answering questions for me when I bought my JCPs was well worth the price I paid for them. If he had wanted to charge me a 12$ handling fee its highly unlikely it would have dissuaded me from my purchase.

[Katt]

Jeff, I don't think Canadians are cheap. I think most of us are overtaxed with less disposable income than others.

I would love to fork out $1500, not a pastel mind you, they hold no interest for me, but a nice bamboo rat, or a group of cave dwelling rats, but considering, I have high ultility bills and a $20K student loan to pay off, I have way more important things to be paying off. Plus very few people allow payment plans, those that I know (Henry P, SCALES, Dean, Stav, David K) I thank greatly for, for allowing me to purchase some snakes that I otherwise could not have afforded in one lump sum. Saving up in a bank acct doesn't work either, b/c mentally, I think, oh, that's my water bill, might as well pay that off now.

I'm not cheap, I'm just poor.

[David Kwok]

Jeff

I think there are a lot of ppl out there that wish they had the "cost of doing business" problem that you have!

Dave

[David Kwok]

Stop tripping over the pennies on the way to making dollars

[Lisa]

Actually I hear the same complaint from a few canadian breeders who don't want to deal with canadian buyers cause they are cheap... often they get emails from people that want to pay the price of a single hatchling for the adult pair that produced that hatchling plus they want free shipping too.

[Tim and Julie B]

Wow, I can't be believe how many amazing posts there have been. I've followed this from the get-go and I am now realizing why I like this site so much. From the top dollar breeders to the ones like myself who do it on a smaller scale with the more readily available reptiles, we are all the same. Same interests, same goals, same passions.

Yes, I too have often wondered how much of my own expenses could be recouperated by charging more based on packaging, shipping, gas and time. Then I realize that shipping a $50 gecko and a $200 gecko with an added % for those costs will only force people to go somewhere else. Which in the long run means that I will be recouperating even less by the end of the year. So basically, for me it's part of the breeding process. And really I don't mind. I do it out of the love for the hobby. I have a regular job that allows me to work upwards of 65 hours a week, and I get paid well, but like most other people I have a lot of expenses to pay for. I just like when the animals pay for themselves, which took a good 5 years to get to that point.

I am considering some higher end animals now, just because I really like them, not because they will make me more money. I'm with Katt on the thought that I will never quit my stable day job to do this breeding thing full time. Though I would never give up the reptiles either, even they put me in the hole. Though it would be nice to make some real cash to buy that Harley Ive been drooling over. :D Ah well, someday...

Julie

[Vanan]

LOL! Didn't know you were a biker babe Julie. And to think Tim prefers them non-motorized mountain scalers! :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Its tough Julie, but great post! I think we all feel very very similar deep down, to what you are saying. No one likes to subsidize certain aspects of their business/life with other aspects of their business/life. Reptiles or not. It doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter if you're making $500 a year at it or $500,000 a year at it, you HAVE to weigh the pros and cons, as a good business person. That is why I posed the question. Free market research! How beautiful is that?!

Thanks for replying. Great post. Get a chopper!! LOL!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Stop tripping over the pennies on the way to making dollars

Kwok, that' the best quote of heard since Trev's signature! LOL! That should be every snake breeder's motto! Ha ha!!

[Tim and Julie B]

Yup, I love loud, ripping, rumbling bikes (the rumbling is the best part-c'mon ladies I know you'd agree:D). But Vanan, I've tried to convince Tim to be my biker b****, but he won't go for it. Guess he can stick with the terrainers! LOL

And I agree with David's quote too. It kind of sums up everything about our hobby/business. Good one! And yes Jeff, free market research is sweet. Especially when focused directly within it's consumer category. Still, I'd like to see more posts from the thousands of members here that are strictly buyers. It would be interesting to get some more opinions from the other demographic.

Julie

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL.

[Vanan]

Yup, I love loud, ripping, rumbling bikes (the rumbling is the best part-c'mon ladies I know you'd agree). But Vanan, I've tried to convince Tim to be my biker b****, but he won't go for it.

LMAO!!! :D:D:D Poor Tim!

[David Kwok]

Kwok, that' the best quote of heard since Trev's signature! LOL! That should be every snake breeder's motto! Ha ha!!


I don't know if it should be every snake breeders motto.... but from the title of the thread you want to put everything in a "business" context. So I am telling you to stop tripping.

Now that you have complainted about the cost side of it, why don't you complain a bit about the Revenue side of it.

How much in Cash sales did you do to incur such a huge 750$ expence in the year?

$20 an hour? what else would you have been doing that would better suit your time then drive a box of snakes to the airport?

Not trying to start a fight here, but if you are trying to run a business you will have expenses. And of course big business = big expenses. Whether it's your personal time, opportunity cost of capital, space, future earnings.

Maybe you should sell your collection to me :) that will solve your expense problem.

Cheers!
Dave

:D

[Jeff Hathaway]

Great thread, everyone! As a few people have said, I think you can go either way (separate handling charge, or just a higher price), but whichever you do, just be very clear about it. I always hate thinking that I'm paying X for something only to find out at the last minute that it is actually X+Y. However, when I see it clearly stated on a price list, website, etc. that there is an extra charge for something, I don't see it as a problem. Obviously though, if I can buy the same thing without the extra costs (by picking it up, etc.) then I might do that.

Pricing a product or service is always a challenge when expenses are variable between transactions. Someone illustrated nicely how it works for retailers- the costs are all determined regardless of who walks through the door. I think this can hold true for shipping boxes, driving to the airport, etc. because you should know already what these things will cost. So, you either put it in the price, and offer a discount for people who pick it up (or not since they take up an hour of your time touring your collection), or you set a price for the animal and charge extra for the cases where you ship. I suppose that which way you might go depends upon whether most of your business is done by shipping or by pick up. Personally, I don't ship anything, since I don't breed anything that anyone really wants that badly. But, if someone did want me to ship them a baby corn snake, I would definitely have to charge extra for a box and driving it 75 minutes to the airport.

However this is a little different: "For example, I do drywall for a living... I get the rate that is a standard pay (same as union) and never get paid for gas that gets me to work so why should people as breeders expect to be paid to get the animals (which is your job) to the airport"

Jeff, when you work this way, are you an employee or a contractor? If you're an employee, and you get paid hourly regardless of what you're doing (which would generally include driving to the jobsite if it is out of town) that is one thing. But if you're a contractor, and you don't include the cost of driving to jobsites, then you're likely either overcharging those customers close to you or undercharging those farther away, or both. Therefore, you'll make less money (or lose) on some jobs, and not get awarded others because you overbid. For the limited amount of construction contracting I still do, I definitely include travel expenses- often a mileage charge for gas, wear & tear, etc. plus an hourly charge for the driving. If you're driving any significant distance to the jobsite, how could you not do this?

To answer another question- we generally charge less at shows than normal, because there are other people there selling the same things for less than we normally sell for. Since our typical private customers are not 'hobbiests', we can sell at slightly higher prices to them.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Cruciform]

This has been a great thread to read. Just thought I'd add one little tidbit from an online purchase in the past.

I was looking for a hard to find game for the Gameboy Advance. I found it on an American site for a reasonable price. The shipping fee was reasonable, but when they tacked on the "handling" fee, it was almost equal to the price of the game.

The game arrives in the mail, and I look at the shipping stamps only to discover it cost them a total of $1.60 to send me the package. The mark-up to ship it was over 1000 percent.

Now if someone wants to figure reasonable costs into the expense of shipping, as stated in the 12 dollars worth of packaging, then great.

If people were artificially inflating the shipping costs to drive up the price, then that would be unethical. But that's not what the thread has been about. It's about reasonable costs.

Some people have said that if it's a more expensive snake it's just cheap to want to recoup those costs. But the price of the snake is dictated by market conditions, eg. demand in a capitalist market, and it's not unreasonable to factor in fair market value + shipping + expenses to come up with a price.

The worst that can happen is someone takes their business somewhere else. There are many factors that determine what people are willing to pay. And in this hobby/business reputation seems to have a huge influence.

I don't think I'd dicker over paying a premium for a healthy, well treated animal from a reputable breeder who stands by their animals. By the time I got to the point of purchase I'd hope to have done enough research on the seller to know if I was getting my moneys worth.

Ramble done :)

[spidergecko]

Originally posted by Cruciform
The game arrives in the mail, and I look at the shipping stamps only to discover it cost them a total of $1.60 to send me the package. The mark-up to ship it was over 1000 percent.

More about this: I ordered an item and the seller tacked on a $20 shipping cost. I received the item and looked at the stamps: $9. I thought, "Well he must have not known the actual cost and since I sent the money before he went to the post office, I'll accept this higher price." I ordered something from him again thinking he would give me a reduced or at least "honest" shipping charge. Nope, I gave him $20, the actual cost was $7.

On to something else, I think someone who understands that packing supplies can be expensive is more willing to accept a box charge (even if it's not advertised) than someone who doesn't ship. As I've said before, I'm willing to pay this box charge because I've done my own research for shipping. It really does cost $12 to pack an animal. Considering I am selling < $20 animals sometimes I think I'm quite allowed to request this fee.

[Cruciform]

I agree.

There's a lot more involved in shipping an animal than a game.

In my case all they did was put a another box around the original box, and put a shipping label on it. No protective packaging or any other measures. So It didn't need 18 to 20 dollars American worth of shipping costs, for a carboard sleeve and a sticker.

Heat packs, insulating materials, and such do cost money for the shipper though and are an honest expense. I won't begrudge anyone for recouping those costs.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Mike,

Could part of the shipping cost have been their gas to buy the stamps??

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[jjnnbns]

I haven't had to ship any offspring yet as my creatures will not be breeding until this coming season, but what I was planning on was having a shipping AND handling charge all as one. Find out what it costs to overnight or same day the package, as well as the cost of packing/heating materials and add all of it as the shipping charge.

i.e.

A person is interested in one of my snakes and would like it shipped. If the actual shipping cost is $30 and the packaging is around $12, I would quote them at $45 in order to ensure that I would not be losing money by accomodating them by shipping a live animal.

As long as they know that the charge is for the box, styro, heat, shipping etc... then I would assume that would be fine. That is how I felt when I had my animals originally shipped to me.

[Lisa]

You think those shipping rates are bad, I went to order some radios from midland in the states... they wanted $1000 US for a package of 3 pound radios. I want to know if they're going to deliver by horse back with a stripping messanger.

[jjaj02]

Ok, I haven't read this entire thread because its soooo long and I don't have enought time today but here is what I think. Oh and if some of the stuff that I am saying has been said already please excuse me. I think that the price of herps as dropped significantly in the last 5 years or so. Maybe not all of them but some of them have definatly dropped. It's because of these people that cut corners to undersell reputable breeders. In return these reputable breeders have to drop their prices to compete with "backyard" breeders. So really I think sometimes these people that bitch about prices are getting an awesome deal anyways. But cheap people will be cheap people I guess. I think that the prices of snakes should be higher. I don't think that (a lot) of times people are selling them for what they are worth any more. But I guess these people who are trying to make a quick buck by cutting corners are the ones that really set the prices. If breeders wanna throw on an extra couple of bucks for boxing or handling or whatever. I say go for it. They already arent getting what the snake is worth so why lose out even further. I don't know..........just my two cents.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Now that you have complainted about the cost side of it, why don't you complain a bit about the Revenue side of it.

I fail to see where I was complaing about anything. I even went as far to say in my FIRST post that I WASN'T complaining, LOL! Go back and re-read that part, because I think you missed it.

I was just thinking out loud and asking other's for their thoughts as well. Nothing wrong with that. I never complained once. My only complaint is that you think I was complaining about it. Please show me where I was.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Thanx spidergecko! Great post and insight. Exactly what I was looking for. Obviously charging people is out of the question. I never have, and likely never will. But knowing that people like yourself can be reasonable to the suggestion of it still shows me that decent and thoughful people are still existing somewhere. Thanks for the input man! Appreciate it!

[Jeff_Favelle]

I haven't had to ship any offspring yet as my creatures will not be breeding until this coming season, but what I was planning on was having a shipping AND handling charge all as one. Find out what it costs to overnight or same day the package, as well as the cost of packing/heating materials and add all of it as the shipping charge.

i.e.

A person is interested in one of my snakes and would like it shipped. If the actual shipping cost is $30 and the packaging is around $12, I would quote them at $45 in order to ensure that I would not be losing money by accomodating them by shipping a live animal.

As long as they know that the charge is for the box, styro, heat, shipping etc... then I would assume that would be fine. That is how I felt when I had my animals originally shipped to me.


Good post man. As long as you're honest and up-front about your business practices, NO ONE can complain. Good on you.

[Jeff_Favelle]

But cheap people will be cheap people I guess. I think that the prices of snakes should be higher. I don't think that (a lot) of times people are selling them for what they are worth any more

Hear hear!!! I can't think of a single animal (except some over-priced morphs) that are sold what they are "worth"!! I completely agree my man! GREAT post!! :D

[spidergecko]

I actually paid a $10 box charge on top of my $20 shipping cost.

I am willing to pay for box charges but I draw the line at paying a gas fee. That's really pushing it to me.

[Katt]

What determines what an animal is really worth??

Sorry to hijack.

[Jeff_Favelle]

What determines what an animal is really worth??

Too many factors to list, but all usually superceded by two things:

1) What the end consumer is willing to pay.

2) What the animal is "worth" to the breeder to keep and breed in the future.

But there are probably a thousand other factors to consider. Those are the two that I worry about more than all the others.

[Katt]

So who is to say, that snakes aren't being sold for what their worth now? If consumers set the price (and it's low), is that not really what the snake is worth if that's the price people are willing to buy at?

Just being devil's advocate. Trying to get an idea how people "price" things .

[Cruciform]

Well, look at Albinos in any breed.

20 years ago some of the albinos that are readily available today numbered in the single or double digits throughout the entire continent. So the demand far outstripped the quantity. As the numbers of offspring increased, and they became more common, the price dropped as people had more options to buy. It's the same with any market, be it oil, gold, or RAM.

RAM prices had been dropping steadily for years when the single largest producer of chips in Asia burned down in a fire. During their rebuild time, the amount of inventory in reserves dwindled rapidly and prices skyrocketed. Once the production was back, then prices dropped steadily once again.

It's all about supply and demand, and how much you need to sell in order to make a profit.

[Tim and Julie B]

Katt- Yes and no. If we all agreed to hike up the price of our reptiles then people would still buy them. It would become "normal" to see higher prices at shows. Kind of like the ever fluctuating gas prices. Again, the problem lies with people who sell $100 animals for $25 and drive the market down for the rest of us. So really, animals aren't being sold for what they are worth, the are being "flogged".

Julie

[Jeff_Favelle]

Who's to say anything if that's the case. But it was our opinion, which I thought was implied. The dude and I thought that animals should be worth more than what they are being sold/traded for. No one is to say who's "right" about it. I think that living things that take time and effort to propogate and keep healthy should be more than $20 (corns, leo geckos, certain frogs, etc etc). Its my opinion.

I think that certain morphs are over-priced, but many will disagree. Who's right? Beats me. Maybe what people are willing to pay is the final bottom line. I price things with the market in mind and with quality in mind and with future production in mind. If people didn't want to pay $1500 for a male Pastel this year, then I would have 3 choices. Keep them all (yeah right). Sell them at the new low price (maybe if I was destitute and got myself in a bad situation with poor planning and financial management). Or I could flip them out of the country and let the people get them elsewhere. The market does NOT always determine what breeders sell their animals for. The market for an adult female Ball Python is probably $300, no more. I wouldn't sell any of mine for less than $1,000 each. Why would I? Market dictates what the price is, but breeders don't have to follow it. And more power to them for doing so. They're the ones doing all the work.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Katt- Yes and no. If we all agreed to hike up the price of our reptiles then people would still buy them. It would become "normal" to see higher prices at shows. Kind of like the ever fluctuating gas prices. Again, the problem lies with people who sell $100 animals for $25 and drive the market down for the rest of us. So really, animals aren't being sold for what they are worth, the are being "flogged".

Julie


PERFECT post. Ha ha, what I was trying to say in 1/10 of the "wordage".

LOL!

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
well when you pack up your animals and head to a show do you raise your prices to cover the cost of the trip???

Yep. Shows are RETAIL transations and each animal is around 10-15% higher. Go to ANY show and look at the prices, then look at a breeder's site for SIMILAR QUALITY and it'll be slightly higher. Always has been. There will be exceptions with people that have no name and can't move animals other than a show, but generally its a little higher at a show.


Who else does this. This is my 3rd time asking, I'd like to see you ignore it this time Favelle. grrrrrrrr

:)

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ask the other breeders if you wanna know. When I was a youngin', before I attended my first show, it was on the advice of two large breeders attending the same show, and another large breeder NOT attending the show (or any show). I noticed it with other breeders (nor corns and leos mind you). I saw lower quality mid-range animals ($200-$500) being sold at a PREMIUM. The 6 shows that I've attended were like that.

Not sure why its such a point of interest, but ok. I wasn't ignoring it, I was just trying to make sure that I replied to everyone who actually acknowledged my original thread topic. There was a LOT of people replying and I was more concerned with making sure I touched base with them. If you were such a Curious George, why didn't you just email or PM. I answer my emails every day. Just ask around.

[Scales Zoo]

I have asked around, and I have found no one (not 1 person) who sells their snakes for more at shows, and I've been to far more than 6 shows. Personally, I consider the practise "gouging" - if you want to know my honest opinion, which I think was part of the original topic - I can go back and check.

Notice the smiley at the bottom of that post.

Also, let me say I think this is the first post on ssnakess to go above 100 that wasn't about hockey, or had broken out in a fight.

Ryan

[Katt]

I hear what you're saying guys, but hike the price all you want. People need gas to get to work, but people certainly do not need reptiles. Buyers will still dictate what you will sell at.

If I may recall albino whitesided ratsnakes. Easily one of the most expensive north american colubrids a couple years ago. Selling at $1200, no one wanted to buy. Prices dropped all over b/c no one was buying. Now they've settled in price and it's a heck of a lot less than $1200.

I think a lot has to do with popularity. Balls are popular, people know you can make money on them, so people spend money on them. However I dare not say to anyone, invest in an albino hognose, b/c frankly, you're not going to see returns on it, in Canada.


Sure breeders don't have to follow the market, but then, how will you make your money. In Canada you have the option to sell to the States, but, what if you're already an American?

As for $20 animals, I can understand, that yes, that's pretty darn cheap for a living creature, but there are so many corns, and leo's and etc, that people got to move them and the way to move them is to sell them cheap. Now we could say stop breeding, but that hasn't worked very well for cats and dogs, now has it?

[Jeff_Favelle]

I can't believe that so many people posted either! I thought Corey and Roy and maybe a noo-bee or two would have posted, ha ha! Its awesome! I think a LOT of good banter has gone back and forth. Its a great topic and I think its long overdue.

[Katt]

Oh yes, sorry Jeff for hijacking your thread.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I hear what you're saying guys, but hike the price all you want. People need gas to get to work, but people certainly do not need reptiles. Buyers will still dictate what you will sell at.

Nobody mentioned hiking any prices at all. We just said that we think the trade in living things is slightly more than what the current rate is (for some animals). No one said anythign otherwise. Furthermore, I even SAID that what the end consumer was willing to pay was one of the most important factors!! LOL!

In Canada you have the option to sell to the States, but, what if you're already an American?

If you're a Canuck and you're going to sell internationally, there are a heck of a lot more lucrative markets than the United States.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha and its not hi-jacking. As much as I like the husbandry and natural history side of animals, the business side can be just as fascinating (sometimes). LOL! I just thank all for participating! :D

[Katt]

I was replying mostly to Julie who mentioned raising prices.

As for lucrative markets well, I guess you got to figure out if it's worth the hassle of paperwork.

[Tim and Julie B]

I must say Jeff, you've certainly "kicked it up a notch" in here! I like it. I think I should try to drum up some chatter in other forums LOL Thanks for the compliments btw, But honestly I just like the term "flogged" and tried really hard to use it in a post.........

Yes Katt, people certainly don't NEED reptiles, but as pretty much all of us know once you're hooked, you're hooked. I am fairly certain that if people went to shows and saw that everything was a few dollars more, or that breeders weren't giving out "deals on multiples" that they'd be pretty P***** about it, but they'd come back the second day after checking out pet store prices and what not, and would be willing to pay that little extra.

If breeders, big or small, would charge more then the market would certainly bend. In fact, there would be no market without breeders. (Many would say there's no market without buyers, but what exactly is to be bought if nothing is created?) WE determine the market, most of us just choose not to.

Julie

[Vanan]

I guess what it all boils down to is, if you're primarily a hobbyist or a businessperson. *ducks* :D

[Tim_Cranwill]

Originally posted by Vanan
I guess what it all boils down to is, if you're primarily a hobbyist or a businessperson. *ducks* :D

What? You can't be both?!?! :p

:D

[Jeff_Favelle]

I guess what it all boils down to is, if you're primarily a hobbyist or a businessperson. *ducks*


I'd be extremely disappointed if you couldn't be both. If they were mutually exclusive, then I think the whole thing would just collapse. No way "regular" people would fill the void that dedicated breeders are filling right now.

I agree Julie. Trying to get all the breeders on the same page though? Ha ha I think it'd be easier to double clutch a Boelen's Python, LOL! Aside from short-sighted, always-in-need-of-funds-type of breeders, a lot of breeders simply don't get along (a true shame) and almost seem to screw each other over out of spite! Even if it hurts themselves!

And because of this, its become a buyer's market in a HUGE way.

Great post though!!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Crannie and his pointy fingers beat me to my first point dammit!

[Scales Zoo]

That is what is so interesting about this thread. It's a hobby turned business for many of us younger folk, and the lines are beginning to fade, and it is good to step back and look at the situation every once and a while.

Just this fall, I remembered why I got into it in the first place. I now breed the snakes I like, regardless of saleability. I used to keep the snakes that would sell - and started to base my collection around that. Jeff mentioned he keeps JCP's because he likes them, rather than keeping Diamonds which would make him rich. I guess he'd have to wait 5 years growing up diamonds - and I can't see him doing that either.

Ryan

[Jeff_Favelle]

That is what is so interesting about this thread. It's a hobby turned business for many of us younger folk, and the lines are beginning to fade, and it is good to step back and look at the situation every once and a while.

Just this fall, I remembered why I got into it in the first place. I now breed the snakes I like, regardless of saleability. I used to keep the snakes that would sell - and started to base my collection around that. Jeff mentioned he keeps JCP's because he likes them, rather than keeping Diamonds which would make him rich. I guess he'd have to wait 5 years growing up diamonds - and I can't see him doing that either.

Totally man. It has to be about what interests you and is fun. That's why I do it anyways.

I don't mind waiting though. If Diamonds interested me, I would have got them at the same time Don did. 5 years is nothing. I've waited 6 to breed some female Ball Pythons, and I waited 6 years to breed my first ever pair of Rainbow Boas. I'm waiting until the 4th year on all my Bci, and I waited on the 3rd year for 2 of my female albino Hondurans when they could have EASILY gone at 18 months. Patience is one thing I will always have, and I truly think it is a feather in the cap of any breeder. Impatient breeders usually fade away. I can name 10 off the top of my head that came to this site alone with brand new websites, spent thousands, and were all set, only to sell everything off within 2 years. Impatient. I cannot name a single animal that I bought (other than all thou$and$ in frogs that were impossible to breed) that I didn't eventually breed. Everything comes to those who wait. I don't make nearly the amount of $$-cake-$$ that some other breeders in Canada make, but I do know that everything passes through my facility produces. Proof is in the pudding.

The only thing I don't have paitience for is the damn Ball Pythons! LOL! Such a wicked (in the truest sense of the word) species to work with, ha ha! ;)

[Katt]

I think what Vanan is saying, is that there's a difference between those who keep their hobby as a hobby and lose cash, and those whose hobby starts to pay for other things, like projection sets. Bottom line has little meaning for straight hobbyists, while for others, there needs to be a bottom line.


Main Entry: 2hobby
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural hobbies
Etymology: short for hobbyhorse
: a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation
- hob·by·ist /-bE-ist/ noun


http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

[Derrick]

Tim and Julie B but they'd come back the second day after checking out pet store prices and what not, and would be willing to pay that little extra.


I'll agree with that. The LPS sells snow corns here for 180$ and I know they pay 45$ for them. I had a little accident here and ended up with a clutch of snows. they havent even hatched yet and I have people waiting on 10 of 13 at 60-80 dollars:). plus I'll be selling them feeders which even if I double the price I paid is half what the LPS sell them for

[Jeff_Favelle]

I think what Vanan is saying, is that there's a difference between those who keep their hobby as a hobby and lose cash, and those whose hobby starts to pay for other things, like projection sets. Bottom line has little meaning for straight hobbyists, while for others, there needs to be a bottom line.

I think that is fairly obvious, and really is inutitive. Obviously someone who owns 3 snakes and pays to keep them as pets is different than a breeder who produces hundreds. I'm not sure it needs to be pointed out. And I'm not sure that the hobbyist, other than from a customer-standpoint, even factors into this discussion. Do they? If so, where? The topic what should the packing and handling of reptiles be subsidized by the sale of them? Not whether or not there's a difference between someone who keeps a leo gecko in an aquarium compared to a large-scale breeder. I don't get the connection?

[Tim_Cranwill]

Also, who is to say that a "hobbyist" is better than a "business person/breeder" or even cares for their animals better/more???

Really?

Do you really feel that a casual keeper is more noble or something?

Just because somebody wants to take the opportunity/risk of turning their hobby into a small business, that doesn't make them less of an animal lover.

Is a writer who has his/her stories published, less of a writer just because there is money being made? And does a reader love literature more just because they don't write?

See what I mean?

It just comes across kind of pompous to me when people make comments like that… not to say that is your feeling…

[Vanan]

I think it better if I were to clarify what I meant. I said primarily businessperson or hobbyist. Primarily being what got you into snakes first. Some have always loved snakes and think it cool if they could make a buck at it too. Some others see hobbyist making the buck and decide to keep snakes to make a buck. Primarily is the keyword. I've had to ask myself plenty of times when I have failed breedings, why I keep snakes. Now I don't care as much about breeding as I used too. Heck, I have more lone males now then I did before.

Anyways, wasn't aiming that comment at anyone, but I just happen to have known a couple of people who got into snakes cos of the potential $. Sad but true. Often enough, those "businesspeople" don't last long in this hobby.

[Katt]

I'd be extremely disappointed if you couldn't be both.

I think that it's not possible to be a business person and a hobbyist. To survive you have to look at your collection in a different way, than say, a person with 3 cornsnakes. But this is semantics and it doesn't really matter what I think, so you can just skip over the rest of the post, if you like.

As for the connection with the point of this thread. Well, a person with three cornsnakes who is selling one doesn't have the same "cost of business" as a business breeder who sells 300 snakes. Thus, the 3cum2 corn person, can negate a shipping and handling charge of X. This may cause a buyer to buy from them, instead of ABC Corn Breeder. Course one lost sale, isn't a big deal, but if a lot of 3cum2 corn people sell then, ABC is going to feel it, especially if ABC is charging X ontop of Y. So there is incentive for f/t breeders to "swallow" the cost of shipping. This has been said before, but I did hijack the topic so I must tie it all back.

As for being pompous. I'm not sure where you got that feeling Tim. I did not mention anywhere, that there is some sort of "nobility" in being a straight hobbyist than a full time breeder. In fact, if you read a few pages earlier, I wish best of luck to full time breeders b/c it is not something I could due, to the stress of it. So if I struck a nerve of some sort or made anyone feel less b/c they want to make a few bucks, then I'm sorry, that is definitely not my intention. After all, I've used money from snake sales to buy stuff, usually more snakes! :p

I am enjoying the evolution of this discussion. Good job guys!

[jjaj02]

The way I look at the whole hiking prices thing is this. I also breed dogs. I ask quite a bit for my dogs. It took me two weeks to sell them both. If I would have asked very little for them they would have sold in two days. The point is that they still sold. Yes, it took a little longer. But they still sold. And these people who were willing to pay the price for them understood that they are of quality and I know that because they were willing to pay the price for them they will be well taken care of. Like someone did a study about cheap animals. These people that were only willing to pay a few bucks for them either didnt have the money to put into them or didnt care to because the way they looked at it is that they only paid a bit for them so who cares. If something happens they can just get another one. I'm sorry to talk about dogs in a snake forum but it all stems back to the same idea. Just like when you see a dog in a pet store or a snake for that matter. They are selling them (most of the time) for an outrageous price. And people still pay it. Even tho they don't know where the dog (or snake) came from, the quality of the animal, or for that matter, anything about the animal. Personally I would buy off of the person that could sit me down and tell me something about the animal. Not some pet store that probably cant tell me anything. But thats the way people work and it works so well for pet stores because people come in and see something they like and without even thinking about it or doing any research they buy it. Thats where breeders have a problem or a lot of us anyways. People cant just wander into our store in a mall and say oooooh ooooh i want that and buy it. Impulse buying a lot of the time is rare for a breeder. Its these people that have done the research and seen all these backyard breeders on the net selling extremely low priced animals and wanting everything for nothing. Why can there never be an in between????

[Jeff_Favelle]

I think that it's not possible to be a business person and a hobbyist. To survive you have to look at your collection in a different way, than say, a person with 3 cornsnakes. But this is semantics and it doesn't really matter what I think, so you can just skip over the rest of the post, if you like.

Well said, but I totally disagree, LOL! ;)

To me, that's like saying that Jarome Iginla can't go play street hockey as a hobby and enjoy it because he plays in the NHL for a living. Or a commercial fisherman can't go fly-fishing as a hobby on the weekends. Or a video game developer/artist can't play Xbox or Playstation anymore because he does it for a living. That's totally ludicrous as far as I'm concerned. Just because I have a bunch of snakes that reproduce and sell for coin, doesn't mean that I can't be a hobbyist. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

I totally get what you're saying about the "primarily" part Vanan. For sure. I see it with the Ball market. Its not a bad thing (hey, to each their own), but I totally agree with you that there are TWO separate people investing into the industry in that sense. Good pick-up. I forgot about that aspect.

[Jeff_Favelle]

The way I look at the whole hiking prices thing is this. I also breed dogs. I ask quite a bit for my dogs. It took me two weeks to sell them both. If I would have asked very little for them they would have sold in two days. The point is that they still sold. Yes, it took a little longer. But they still sold. And these people who were willing to pay the price for them understood that they are of quality and I know that because they were willing to pay the price for them they will be well taken care of. Like someone did a study about cheap animals. These people that were only willing to pay a few bucks for them either didnt have the money to put into them or didnt care to because the way they looked at it is that they only paid a bit for them so who cares. If something happens they can just get another one. I'm sorry to talk about dogs in a snake forum but it all stems back to the same idea. Just like when you see a dog in a pet store or a snake for that matter. They are selling them (most of the time) for an outrageous price. And people still pay it. Even tho they don't know where the dog (or snake) came from, the quality of the animal, or for that matter, anything about the animal. Personally I would buy off of the person that could sit me down and tell me something about the animal. Not some pet store that probably cant tell me anything. But thats the way people work and it works so well for pet stores because people come in and see something they like and without even thinking about it or doing any research they buy it. Thats where breeders have a problem or a lot of us anyways. People cant just wander into our store in a mall and say oooooh ooooh i want that and buy it. Impulse buying a lot of the time is rare for a breeder. Its these people that have done the research and seen all these backyard breeders on the net selling extremely low priced animals and wanting everything for nothing. Why can there never be an in between????


Exactly man. When was the last time you saw a rescue Pied or a rescue Blackhead? LOL!

The problem with the easier-to-breed species is that the supply had outstripped the demand, allowing, nay, MAKING the no-name breeders sell the animals for less for fear of being "stuck" with all the babies.

Elementary economics. When supply is greater than demand, the "demanders" can set the price (within reason). And when the demand is greater than the supply, the "suppliers" (breeders) set the price (within reason). Its basic, but it applies. And it applies to snakes and snake breeding.

[ReptiliansDOTca]

I agree with Jeff on the whole hobby / profession median. As for the shipping expenses, I think that is something that we unfortunately have to suck up, and accept as being included with the fee for a reptile. However, for something such as a $20.00 gecko, I believe adding $15.00 or so for time and effort is reasonable, for the obvious reasons. This is of course, my humble opinion.

The best way to find a happy middle point, I would say designate specific shipping dates. For example, depending on how much you sell, once a week, two times a month, once a month, or whatever best fits your individual time frame / situation.

Elementary economics. When supply is greater than demand, the "demanders" can set the price (within reason). And when the demand is greater than the supply, the "suppliers" (breeders) set the price (within reason). Its basic, but it applies. And it applies to snakes and snake breeding.

I was in the middle of typing something surprisingly similar to that. I personally believe that no reptile should be less then $100.00, $75.00 at least. Why? I just cannot justify the life of a living creature for $15.00. In addition, when reptiles can't be purchased with a childs weekly allowance, this filters out those who are, often times, not capable of holding the responsibility. After all, one is much more likely to put effort into something they paid $100.00 dollars, then something they can replace with an additional 20 dollar bill.

[ReptiliansDOTca]

I am a little off topic here, but on the above discussions it is somewhat relevant. Has anyone other then me ever thought what happens to the reptiles sold at a reptile expo? Lets face it, more then 50% of the purchases are either impusle-based, or unexpected. And of this 50%, I would say more then 25% of the times the purchasers do not have a home prepared for the reptile. I mean, how many bearded dragons, for say $40.00 get sold? Lots. To whom? Often times, as a first lizard. This whole reality scares me, to say the least.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Katt and Vanan, while I was feeding off of some of your words for my last post, I wasn't trying to imply that you two specifically felt that way. But I have noticed comments like that being made here and there by people and it always irks me. I guess I just chose this moment to speak out…

I may have a medium sized collection (40-50 snakes + offspring) and I do breed or plan to breed the majority of them but if you sat and talked to me about snakes, you would see that business is <b>not</b> the main thing on my mind. It <i>is</i> on my mind but it's far down on the list. With that "business" mentality comes concerns for things like "the costs of doing business" but that DOES NOT mean I care less about my snakes or snakes in general than anyone here. Trust me. :) It just means I don’t like to throw money away… but I also find it just as easy to write costs like that off as “the cost of having a hobby”.

Peace. :cool:

[Jeff_Favelle]

Excellent posts David! I agree completely! :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

I agree too Tim. And when you look at it, packing and handling is NOT the cost of YOUR hobby. Its the cost of SOMEONE ELSE'S hobby that YOU have to pay! LOL! But it IS a business cost. and if you breed snakes, it IS the cost of production. At least, it always has been. Feeding, electricity, web-sites, advertising, new purchases, medication, tools (tongs, incubators, hemostats), new cages, shipping containers, cage decor, bedding, time, digital cameras, PO Box, cell phone, business cards, computer, printer, software, facilities, did I mention time?, and many many other costs have to be factored in. This makes a LOT of certain species not viable for breeding for anything other than enjoyment. and there's still LOTS of professional breeders that STILL work with these animals because they LOVE DOING SO, and not for the money. This makes them a hobbyist, AND a business-person.

[Ixidor]

If im selling a 500 dollar snake, whats 20 bucks I mean if you cant pay the extra 20 bucks to ensure that the animal gets there safely and my time and effort to make sure the animal is quality than they probably cant afford the reptile

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

JEFF FAVELLE:

Just our 2 cents…

Wow very nice post and pretty direct too. We understand your point and know about taking the loose too. In some cases you get the shipping included on a high value purchase or sale or large quantity order. Some times we get lucky on orders we do when purchasing for our collection. And in doing sales we try and organize with the buyers to be on same shipping date. It’s not much but we rather do 3 - whatever shipments on 1 day, that way we save expenses you mentioned. Being our drive to the airport is almost 3 hours and driving in this great gas economy we have at 93 cents a liter we figure more to airport better than 1 a week, and we have had great co-operation with our customers because of this.

As for packaging and handling these prices are pretty much the same. And yes once you factor in all the things you mentioned like box to labels and ink it can get pricey but there are few things that can be done about that. But we like to make sure the animal gets the best possible shipping method we can provide and the means that the airline can visually see and care for the package. I mean both Air Canada or West Jet are good at times, but we let the customer choose if both are options and that flight price is always additional to the buyer. After they decide on what airline and they accept shipping dates then it becomes the additional cost of protection like flight insurance from Air Canada only. But this is more of a factor of expensive orders or a particular animal but the buyer needs to decide if this is needed.

As for the animal cost, we try and stay market value - only a few have an added value due to the care put into them over time because we feel if the buyer can see that taking an adult animal did have much care put into it and they most likely see it as a breeder and the most part of the work is done with then they should realize there is additional costs included in the animal value.

It’s hard to sell an animal when the buyer is trying to low ball you even after the best you can try is break even, but we feel the animals speak for themselves and after communicating that with the customers we try our best to make the deal work out for both parties. But even then you still will find buyers willing to low ball you its part of business in this hobby and a few others. But with competition comes bargaining and it comes down to the buyer wanting to pay on quality or budget.

Being we are in Manitoba, I and few others here that ship and receive have no choice but to deal with the expenses you mentioned on shipping. Not saying it is not the same in each province, but selection is fewer here…lol.

I guess the best way to save some expense is to ask the airline does it mind if we can we just tape the animals to the wheels and tell the buyers to get them on the runway, lol – joking of course. But I bet the cost would be 0.07 cents, lol.

But great post and comments by all that shared.

Cya…

Tony

[Slannesh]

Quoting from ReptillianDOTca:

I was in the middle of typing something surprisingly similar to that. I personally believe that no reptile should be less then $100.00, $75.00 at least. Why? I just cannot justify the life of a living creature for $15.00. In addition, when reptiles can't be purchased with a childs weekly allowance, this filters out those who are, often times, not capable of holding the responsibility. After all, one is much more likely to put effort into something they paid $100.00 dollars, then something they can replace with an additional 20 dollar bill.

Can't say I agree with that. Afterall aren't Mice and Crickets living creatures as well?

I think the bottom line is that supply and demand drives price. If things are easily bred and have a relatively low cost to keep they won't be expensive for long regardless of how cool the new morph and such. Just look at Blizzard Leopard Geckos, they were $1000 just a few years ago and now are usually around $100.

To comment on the original topic of the thread I think that it really depends on the profit margins we're talking about. If you deal in $35 geckos then yeah, that $12 to pack them is taking a major cut of your profits and at least a signifigant portion should be charged in addition to the shipping to the customer. If however you're dealing with a $500 or $5000 animal that same $12 seems more like gouging to get the most money you can out of a client rather than recovering the cost of doing business. Now if it cost $200 to pack a $500 snake then I would again agree that the cost of properly packing them is taking a major bite out of your profits and would not be surprised that if it were charged to me when I was making such a purchase.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great post Tony. All the hard work will pay off, trust me.

If im selling a 500 dollar snake, whats 20 bucks I mean if you cant pay the extra 20 bucks to ensure that the animal gets there safely and my time and effort to make sure the animal is quality than they probably cant afford the reptile

Ok, why stop there? What about a $400 dollar animal? What about a $50 dollar animal? Where's the grey area. If you're going to make a fixed dollar amount where it should be covered, what is the amount? Is the amount the same for all breeders? Is the amount the same for all countries and/or territories? Its easy to say "ahhhhh,...what's twennny bucks"? Indeed, what is 20 dollars. But what if you ship 60 times a year? That's $1200. It starts to add up.

But I think the general consensus is that its a cost of production, even though it falls long after production and occurs AFTER the sale. And that's fine, because that's the way its always been.

Thanks for the replies guys, keep 'em coming. Couple more and we'll be in the Top 10 threads!!

Great post, again, Tony.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Good points Slannesh! Thanks for participating man! I agree. Percentage-wise, you HAVE to eat the costs on the higher-dollar transactions For sure.

[Simon Sansom]

Hi folks,

In my opinion, if you can sell a snake in Canada, give yourself a pat on the back! It's always been a tough market. And the more breeders there are, the tougher it's gonna be.

I've always been amazed at how many people are willing to compromise on shipping costs after purchasing fairly expensive animals. It's a strange mentality.
When I have animals shipped to me, I always use the most reliable and fastest carrier and service that I can. I don't cut corners. As a customer, I figure proper shipping into the price of the animals, and I don't whine about it.

Just my two cent's...

Cheers!

Simon R. Sansom

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great input Simon my man! Thanx! :D

[jjaj02]

Exactly man. When was the last time you saw a rescue Pied or a rescue Blackhead? LOL!

Jeff, I'm a chick. HAHA.

Nice stuff guys. This is a huge post!!:D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha, oops, my bad!

How yooo doin;....? ;)

[Tim_Cranwill]

LOL! :D

Lame-o! :D ;)

[Slannesh]

LOL

Favelle, some days I just wanna slap ya, other days you give me good info that I need and days like today, you just make me laugh man. ;)

[Simon Sansom]

Thanks, Jeff!
I just want to clarify my last sentence because I don't think I worded it quite properly...
For example, if I wanted to purchase a pair of your beautiful Jungle Carpets, Jeff, I'd know that they'd likely cost around $600.00, and the shipping, via Air Canada Cargo (The carrier that I like to use), will run between $100.00 - $150.00. So that pair of snakes is going cost me around $750.00, bottom line.

The shipping costs are the buyers' responsibility.

Sorry if I've drifted off-topic...

Cheers!

Simon R. Sansom

[jjaj02]

HEHE!!!;) Ya, Jeff I'm doin just fine. LOL;) ;) :D :rolleyes: LOL. Now back to the subject ok.

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL, indeed! :D

[djc3674]

Just because I have a bunch of snakes that reproduce and sell for coin, doesn't mean that I can't be a hobbyist. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

Haven't ya ever heard that saying "Never mix business with pleasure" ?


IMO, there is a big difference between someone that keeps reptiles as a hobby and someone that keeps large collections for breeding and selling purposes. Not that either one is bad, but you have to admit, once you start selling anything in large scale, the $$$ part of it gets in the way of the true feelings of the hobby. You start looking at your collection with money in mind. Like you said Jeff, you would never sell one of your female BP's for less than $1000.

My only point is that you put price tags on animals, rather than being satisfied that it is going to a good home. They start thinking about how much cash that animal can put in their pocket, rather than the happiness it will bring the person that gets to keep it. Seriously, what kind of BP is it, a rare morph or something? I mean, I have a BP and in no way, shape or form is it worth $1000. I guess if I bred it and sold the babies, then yeah, it has a dollar value, but that's my point. I dont think like a breeder. I am considering just giving it to one of my other friends that wants it. A good friend of mine gave me a beautiful BCI, that I have had for 3 yrs now. If he were a breeder that made lots of cash off of reptiles, I doubt highly he would have just givin it to me. I just think that the $$$ changes your frame of mind.

Don't take this the wrong way, everyone has a right to make lots of money from something they enjoy doing. BUT..if it were for the true love of the hobby, you would not see the outlandish prices for some of the reptiles out there. For instance..on another site there are Type II Albino Retics for $7,500-$15,000. That is completely nuts IMO. Those kinds of prices make it almost impossible for the average person to enjoy keeping as a pet. Just my thoughts...again..im not putting anyone down...playing devil's advocate if you will.

[spidergecko]

I don't really agree. This is totally off but in some Asian regions where dogs are eaten, there are still people who keep dogs as pets. I'm sure they don't wonder how tasty poochy would be everytime they pat his back.

I also think you can be a breeder/dealer of one species while keeping another species as a pet.

[Jeff_Favelle]

And keeping snakes as "pets" doesn't mean you are a HOBBYIST. The hobby of reptile-keeping encompasses a LOT more than simply keeping them in a cage on your dresser as a pet. Some people take it to different levels than other people do, but that does not make them less of a hobbyist. No way.

[Optimus Prime]

I agrewith Jeff , most customers won't want to pay more but in every other industry they have it look at all those TV adds it's 19.99 PLUS shipping and Handeling. But then again you breeders can always have deal like buy a certain dollar amount or so many animals and have it included. Some breeders in the states add the cost on.

[Lisa]

Originally posted by Optimus Prime
I agrewith Jeff , most customers won't want to pay more but in every other industry they have it look at all those TV adds it's 19.99 PLUS shipping and Handeling. But then again you breeders can always have deal like buy a certain dollar amount or so many animals and have it included. Some breeders in the states add the cost on.

Buy from the states and expect to pay a FWS fee (55usd i believe).

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yep. F&W will have a fee, and if its a boid, then CITIES will have some more fees for ya as well, LOL! ;)

[Tim and Julie B]

Basically, it all comes down to the individual- like everything else in life. Some of us are hobbyists, some are businessmen/women, and some of us are both. Simple. There are several shades of grey on this one, and I highly doubt anyone would ever agree on one shade:D Besides, who'd want to anyways?!!!

Julie

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by djc3674

BUT..if it were for the true love of the hobby, you would not see the outlandish prices for some of the reptiles out there. For instance..on another site there are Type II Albino Retics for $7,500-$15,000. That is completely nuts IMO. Those kinds of prices make it almost impossible for the average person to enjoy keeping as a pet.

I can't afford to pay that for an animal either but you can't blame the breeders for that, if anything breeders are what will eventually make an obscure variety of animal available for people to own.

At first new varieties will be so rare that the prices will be out of reach for anyone who isn't already a money making breeder. From there it's simple supply and demand, everyone wants the newest morph going but at first there aren't many to go around.

The rest of us just have to wait until everyone and his brother starts breeding them and as the number of them grows out there this will drive the price down.

Personally I hope a million ghost boas are born this year in the Toronto area alone, maybe I could have one then...just think I could make hets! lol!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ghost boas ROCK! I hope the price goes down, so I can buy 5 or 6, then I hope the price goes up when I start producing them, ha ha!! J/K. ;)

Yes, is people want lower prices, then they should get off their damn a$$e$ and start producing something themselves. Funny thing is, when these people actually start to produce something (anything), watch how many of them will advocate a less price. Yes. Exactly 0% of them. I guarantee it.

[Slannesh]

Yes, is people want lower prices, then they should get off their damn a$$e$ and start producing something themselves. Funny thing is, when these people actually start to produce something (anything), watch how many of them will advocate a less price. Yes. Exactly 0% of them. I guarantee it.


That's a VERY good point Jeff.

While I would love to have even an Albino Ball I most definately can't afford the 3K ish to buy one but if I did you'd better believe that i'd want a signifigant chunk of that back if I did breed them.

I do think that a lot of 'low end' herps are sold for much too little $$. Any kid can save up $50 to buy a Leo and treat it poorly but no one in their right mind would buy a $3K Albino Ball and house it improperly or 'forget' to feed it. ;)

Hrm, i'm giving you props twice in one thread... I believe my little corner of the world must be coming to an end. Who knows, before long I might actually start LIKING you! :eek: :eek: :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha, the sky is falling slannesh, the sky is falling!

Cheap snakes are too cheap (IMO) and the real expensive snakes are too expensive (IMO) ha ha! Fortunately, the market will bring down the prices of the super expensive stuff, but unfortunately, it keeps down the prices of the cheaper stuff.

Such is life....

and hey, don't ever feel bad for giving me props, ha ha! No matter HOW many times in the same thread! ;) LOL!

[BoidKeeper]

Would you guys agree that if some of the higher end animals, not morphs per say, would come down in price it would help to cut down on some of the imports? If no one is buying imports then the importers will stop brining them in right? The snake that comes to mind for this example is the Green Tree Python. If more people could afford them then more people would work with them and breed them making them more accessbible for a reasonable price. A lot of people look at the CB price and the import price and they go for the import. Emeralds are the same if not worse, especially in the US market.
On a final note I really thought the comment about when was the last time you saw a rescue Woma was priceless. It does seem to be the case that cheap herps are impulse and expendable herps. There wouldn't be so many unwanted burms out there if they were $7,500 instead of $75. Well I guess I'm kinda all over the place with this post but please try and take something out of it.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Derrick]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Ha ha, the sky is falling slannesh, the sky is falling!

Cheap snakes are too cheap (IMO) and the real expensive snakes are too expensive (IMO) ha ha!

hurry up and get those prices down on womas. I WANT ONE!!!!

[MouseKilla]

My whole point was that the idea of any animal or any product at all being "too expensive" or "too cheap" is a bit silly.

Breeders in this case (sellers in general) are not in charge of the value of the product, price is set by market demand, it's not an arbitrary number picked out of the air by the producer, as much as the sell might like it he doesn't have that power. If that were the case then albino burms would still go for $5000 instead of the $150 or so they go for now.

The same applies on the low end. Maybe some breeders have no problem selling a clutch of amel corns for $70 each say, but if some have trouble moving them out because of market saturation all they can do is lower their price to compete. Better to sell them quick at $50 instead than to pay to keep and feed them while you hold out for more.

As more and more people breed the same animal the price will continue to fall, there is no way to prop up the price so that they don't become "disposable" eventually. The only thing that will slow the fall in prices is a reduction in the supply. In other words, if you are getting frustrated that other breeders are selling what you've got below what you feel is the "right" price you should take it as a sign that it's time to start working with something else that's a little more exclusive.

The good news is there will always be a new morph or new variety to go on to and at first the prices will be sky high, get in on it as soon as you can and get out of it before it's not worth it any more. No one can control the prices, all you can do is roll with them whether you're the breeder or the hobbyist.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Breeders in this case (sellers in general) are not in charge of the value of the product, price is set by market demand, it's not an arbitrary number picked out of the air by the producer,

In this case yes, but not in all cases. Pieds were determined solely by the seller (Pete K.) when they first debuted. He could have charged $20,000, $15,000, whatever, but he charged $25,000. HE set that price. Ralph set the price of his Lesser Platty's and Corey set the price of the Red Axanthic complex. When you produce the only game around, its YOUR choice, and not the market. Obviously the market would't bare a $100,000 but within reason, a seller can charge what the seller wants. Not every breeder is antsy-pantsy to get rid of baby snakes within 4 weeks of hatching/birthing. Some have no trouble keeping them for 6 months or a year or longer if they don't get the price they deserve/want. I like those kind of breeders best! LOL! ;)

[hhw]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the board and hope I have some useful insights into this discussion. I was an avid herper as a youngster but have just gotten back into it after a decade long break (just finished my degree). Although I don't know much about the herp business, I do know a fair bit about the Internet and buying online (double majors comp sci. & commerce), not to mention I'm an avid eBayer.

Firstly, the handling charge is worst when it's unstated; if someone's agreed to a sale at a certain price, and then halfway through the transaction they find out they have to tack on an extra fee, it's likely they'll feel like they're being cheated and obviously be unhappy about it. On the other hand, you're right that there is a set market price and going over will result in less sales, the extent of which depends on how elastic the demand for YOUR herps are. Also, if you just charge your handling costs into shipping, people will also feel cheated, feeling they are being charged extra underhandedly, particularly if they know what the shipping costs should be like.

The best solution in my opinion, is to keep charging the predetermined market price, but state the handling charge up front, clearly separate from shipping. Sure, people will notice that they're going to have to be paying more. However, when you tell them about this charge, they'll begin to wonder if your competitors are going to tack on this extra charge later or not, and perhaps charge even more for handling. At this point, you will have an advantage since the buyer has more information from you than your competitor, and the perceived risk associated with buying from you will become lower.

[hhw]

Okay, now I'm just going to gripe about some issues I've experienced as someone looking around at herp breeders lately.

Now, the Internet has obviously brought some definite advantages, namely easier direct selling. However, you have to look at the other side of the coin; namely direct buying. There are a lot of concerns that come up for consumers when they buy direct.

One of the issues is that there is a lot of risk perceived with buying over the Internet. Having to deal with a person never seeing them face to face and having to pay up front, one will only naturally wonder if they are going to become a victim of Internet fraud. I've noticed that many breeders' websites have no means of contact aside from an e-mail address, which does not do a lot for your credibility. Normally, when someone doesn't see a phone number and address, they instantly start looking for somewhere else to buy from.

Jeff, I'm going to pick on you since I'm from BC also so I've been trying to do some research about you. Currently, I'm only looking to buy local, as I'm sure a lot of people do. Had I not found these forums and seen your address here, I wouldn't have known you were in BC and I would have instantly moved on and not considered purchasing from you.

Now, not only do you have to have this contact information, but you also have to be available for someone to talk to. A consumer isn't going to feel any better about having a phone number to call when all they get is an answering machine. However, when you do have the machine on, make sure you identify yourself clearly, and say when you will be available so the customer can call back in case they don't feel comfortable leaving a message. The quicker the response, the better. After all, this is pre-sale contact; if the customer can't get a hold of you before they fork over their money, how can they hope to get a hold of you afterwards in case something goes wrong? Picking on Jeff again, I e-mailed you last friday but I still haven't heard back from you :P

I understand that there's probably a lot of egg-laying going on this time of year, and you're probably pretty busy, but the longer you take to get back to me, the more appealing it becomes to order hogg isle boas and ackies from someone else, even if they aren't local to me :P

[hhw]

Ack, I was going to touch on some other subjects, but it's late and I have to be up in 5 hours. Anyway, the main point I wanted to get across is that the Internet and direct selling bring up a lot of issues you don't find through more conventional methods. Also, as a smaller business without separate sales, marketing, and customer service departments, you're going to have to take on some of these responsibilities yourselves if you want to remain competitive. Herps is a growing market, and it's only going to get more and more competitive so you're going to want to capture as much market share while you still can. Just a few small things now could mean the difference between selling all your offspring every year for years to come (perhaps even at a higher prices, since the higher demand would allow for it), or having to liquidate everything at cost or lower just to get rid of them.

Anyway, I hope people found what I've had to say useful. If you do, let me know and I'll post some more stuff tommorow. I love herps and am grateful that there's such a great selection in Canada, which I often find not to be the case when buying specialized legacy computer hardware. I sincerely hope you herp breeders all do well in both your herp-keeping and in business. Keep bringing the rest of us great animals! Not to mention, I'd really like Jeff to reply to my E-mail ;P

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great posts hhw!! But I never got an email from you. I answer my emails every day (even when I go away), and my Inbox has exactly ZERO unread threads. Sorry man, but no email made it to me from you.

jefffavelle@shaw.ca

Great posts though!