And the shameless interbreeding begins

[Derrick]

http://www.precisionreptiles.com/

Jaguar(costal)XDiamondXJungle
and
JagxJungle

to be honest I'm not really opposed to this they look really cool and there is no real chance of you mistaking one of these for the original

frankly I'ld like to see a jag/IJ cross

[Andy_G]

How bout getting more Jags situated before all this cross breeding crap guys...this is making me very anti hybrid whereas I didn't have much of a point of view before...

[Derrick]

The only thing that bugs me is that he seems to think that he'll get more for the crosses that the pure jags which I think is out to lunch.

I'm assuming he wants more for them as jags are listed at 3000$ and the hybrids say "inquire for pricing"

also anyone know if the siblings have proven out. I'm guessing not. I'm assuming Jan would have speciems large enough to prove out.

[Yasser]

The only thing that bugs me is that he seems to think that he'll get more for the crosses that the pure jags which I think is out to lunch.

Does he really think that or are you merely assuming he thinks he'll get more?


I'm assuming he wants more for them as jags are listed at 3000$ and the hybrids say "inquire for pricing"

Why assume? Why not find out? He has an email address.


also anyone know if the siblings have proven out. I'm guessing not. I'm assuming Jan would have speciems large enough to prove out.

Why guess...or assume once again?

It is quite pointless to make assumptions about things you don't know about and then state these assumptions all over a public forum. Isn't it always best to state facts? This is how bad info gets out there.


to be honest I'm not really opposed to this they look really cool and there is no real chance of you mistaking one of these for the original

Actually, if you take a look at one of Soeren's diamondXjungle Jags, it looks remarkably similar to Will Leary's pure coastal adult male red hypo Jag. The Jaguar trait is much more potent than most seem to think. It seems that no matter what the trait is bred into, it still will show a similar "look" to the offspring.
I wonder if folks will freak out as much if the Jag was simply crossed to a Diamond X Coastal considering these two locales naturally intergrade anyway as the Jags are coastals.

-Yasser

[Derrick]

I clearly stated I was making asumptions not prensenting facts. The title of my post may have bothered you but I stated that I dont have a problem with it. The interbreding was obviously comming. Even some on like me who knows little could easily figure that out especially with how crazy prices can get for morphs.

As far as the sibling issue goes you would think that there would be a rush to prove them out as then a sibling would fetch a far higher price than $190. Frankly I would love to find out otherwise. A het for jag would a morph that I could afford and would actually be intersted in.

Actually, if you take a look at one of Soeren's diamondXjungle Jags, it looks remarkably similar to Will Leary's pure coastal adult male red hypo Jag.

Thats the first thing I thought of when I saw that pic. I've spent a fair bit of time drooling over Will's creatures.

I wonder if folks will freak out as much if the Jag was simply crossed to a Diamond X Coastal considering these two locales naturally intergrade anyway as the Jags are coastals.

there was only one reply to this post so I would say its safe to say noone really cares one way or another up here. the title of my post was more to get a reaction,people seem to be fairly polarized on interbreeding issues.

[BigDan]

How do we really know the jags are as pure as they say they are.

If you look at the guys site who orginally produced jags and then check out the pics of the precision reptiles hybrids they look almost indistinguishable. The jag X jungle and jag X diamond crosses look alot like many of the hypo jags on the original breeders site.

Are Jags pure coastal? Your guess is as good as mine. They are awesome looking animals and I would not hesitate to buy one but just because someone says it is so does not make it true especially in this industry.

The only way you might know for sure is by doing DNA testing. But hybridzing in Europe is quite common, and less frowned upon. So they do it alot more than we do here.

May be the original jag was a hybrid?

Dan

[DonMeyer]

I am anti hybrid period.

[Ryan and Katie]

Here is a link to a thread started by Soeren from Precision Reptiles that explains his opinions of hybridization.....
http://www.moreliapythons.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2857

[Derrick]

Ya he just posted that yesterday. It's an excellent post.

[Jeff_Favelle]

The only problem is, what do you do with the siblings? Sure Jag crosses will sell all day long, but if you get a clutch of 30 eggs and 20 of them are just Jag (Coastal) x Jungle siblings, what the heck do you do with them? Buy a cobra to feed them to? Freeze them? Sell them as something they are not? Until there is an outlet for siblings that's viable, anything short of a homozygous Jag is not something I'd look at unless I got Coastals.

Hmmmm.....

[Derrick]

wow good point. I think your the first person to bring that up between both boards.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well, look at how many Jungles I produced this year. Say 150. If I used a Jag, that would mean, on average, 75 NORMAL siblings. What the he!! do I do with them? I'd feel like a heel freezing them or feeding them off to another reptile. I'd NEVER risk my reputation by selling them as pure Jungles, even if they looked like it. So I'm stuck. Until I can get a homo-jag (and again, who do you trust that its homozygous??), then I can't do anything with Jags. I don't really want a bunch of 12 foot Coastals taking up space either.

Guess I'll just have to live through the pics that other people put up! :)

Oh, and they aren't really hybrids if they are all members of the SAME species Morelia spilota . I guess they could be interspecific hybrids, but seeing as the whole classification is an artificial system implemented by us, then why would it matter if they were bred together?

Too confusing. Arrgghhh.

[Mardy]

I must be just shameless,

Having bred Jaguar x Irian Jaya this year. Surprise!!!

Mardy

[JDouglas]

LOL! Mardy could you post pics of what the mormals sibs look like?

[Tim_Cranwill]

Like Jeff said, they wouldn't "really" be hybrids. Besides, if you look at a map showing the geographical ranges covered by the Coastals, Diamonds and Jungles, the ranges overlap... at least the Diamond's and the Jungle's overlap with the Coastals. So it's likely that any "hybrids" have occurred in nature already...

Who knows?!?! :D

I'd prefer to keep it pure but that's just me. :)

[Scales Zoo]

I didn't want to touch this thread before our trip, but some interesting things have been brought up whilst we were away.

Jeff, the "what to do with sibling jag crosses" thing was the first thiing I asked about when talking to someone who was thinking of getting some. King Cobra was my first thought, and we will probably be getting one (for anyone who is thinking about doing Jag hybrids.)

Some of the hybrids look really cool, and as you said, they aren't really hybrids.

But.... I was just told that there are no pure diamonds in Canada, and the diamonds we are working with won't be considered "pure" - because of the crap that has gone on with diamonds and jungles in the past. Now I'm quite sure I have 2 unrelated diamonds, but no one else seems to be, because of so many crosses being out there. That kind of thing pisses me off to the point of not thinking anyone should cross any carpets.

However, once again, some of the jag crosses (white ones) are the mot beautiful snakes I've ever seen, and are the only snakes I've ever really "envied". I wonder what a Hypo Jag x Diamond would look like. I wonder what the F2's might produce.

So once again, I am kind of left undecided on this one but... I think the sibling jag cross babies should not be allowed to live and muddy future gene pools.

Did I already say I might be getting a very hungry King Cobra? I hope everyone remembers this before they do Jag crosses.

Ryan

[Scales Zoo]

Oh, and Dan, I was quite sure that Eric had something written on his page about the first Jag being produced from a coastal to coastal breeding.

Ryan

[Yasser]

I feel that I should point out the even the "Normal" siblings of Jags are not normal. They develop much more golden coloration at much earlier ages. And so far, from what I have seen, even their patterns can be pretty wild...quite unlike a normal coastal.
And just for the record, "normal" Jag siblings have not yet been bred to each other yet and there may be some surprises lurking in those guys too. That will hopefully be proven (or disproven) this season. So don't go buying King cobras just yet!

-Yasser

[Derrick]

I kinda started this topic off here on the wrong note and thought the thread was going to die but it turned out kind of intersting.

I have one question in regards to siblings. There has to be just as many sibblings out there as jags. Why are people so slow to breed them??? The are a FAR cheaper investment with the chance of a good pay off if something unusual turns out.

[Scales Zoo]

Well now that is an excellent question.

Could it be that some people have bred them together, and saw that nothing interesting pops out, but they don't want to say that - because then they couldn't sell the siblings as well if people knew that nothing happens whe breeding the siblings.

Or maybe people are breeding their male jags to older and larger coastals (or other carpets, cough cough), and that there aren't enough big female siblings to have tried it yet.

Jag to Jag was bred together last year, I think, wasn't it? I heard something about a single white baby that died - or something like that.

Will be interesting to learn of all the genetics involved, I suspect it is just regular co-dom. I'm more anxious to hear about other jag to jag breedings than I am siblings, a "super jag" would rock!

Ryan