Gas Chambers

[Vengeance]

I was thinking about how to setup a gas chamber for when I start breeding my Feeder rats. I would much rather prefer to use co2 over whacking. But because I won't be having a huge production line of rats to euthanize, using co2 canisters could get expensive. So I was trying to brainstorm some other ideas on how to setup a gas chamber and was wondering what you guys would think of the following idea, would it be considered humane or not?

Basically my idea is to use a large air tight jar or container and instead of introducing co2 into the environment and pushing the o2 out. What about burning the o2 out of the air and replacing it with co2? Basically I'd want to secure an area that the mouse/rat would not be able to access by suspension or other means (I haven't figured this part out yet) and use a clean burning substance such as isopropyl alcohol and basically light the fuel, close the lid and allow the flame to burn off all the o2 in the container and replace it with co2. Now because I would use a clean burning fuel I wouldn't have to worry about smoke inhalation being the cause of death. But I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on if the o2 would be burned from the air too quickly thus causing the burning sensation on the eyes and lungs or would the heat produced by the flame heat up the air to a point that it would cause allot of discomfort to the mouse/rat?

Any opinions on this matter would be great, also keep in mind I'm currently not using this method, only brain storming ideas for cheap ways to euthanize mouse/rats using a co2 method.

[sapphire_moon]

actually, if you dont plan on having alot of mice/rats to kill off, one can of c02 would last a long time. So in the long run I don't think it would be as expensive as your thinking.

Sounds more like suffocation than being put to sleep, you would basicly be burning the oxygen up, where co2 they inhale and it puts them to sleep.....jmo though

[Vengeance]

See that's what I'm trying to figure out. When the o2 is burned out of the air, it has to be replaced with co2. So just as you are replaceing the o2 with co2 by forceing the o2 out of the container and replaceing it with co2 wouldn't buring the o2 there by produceing the byproduct, co2 produce the same effect?

[sapphire_moon]

I think fire and co2 would be a bad combination. not sure though, lol. I'm probably wrong.

[Vengeance]

Scientifically it seems sound, but humanly I have no idea.

[Syco]

I don't think it sounds like a good idea, but fire and CO2 would not be a problem.
I use a CO2 fire extiguisher to introduce CO2 to my "Gas Chamber", if it puts fires out I'm sure it shouldn't cause an explosion or anything. :D

[Batdad]

If you are looking for a cheap (inexpensive :D) and effective source of CO2 you can mix baking soda and vinegar. If you are interested I can look for acopy of a web page I put together awhile ago showing how I do it. It's not on line anymore as I recently moved and changed servers. Think it cost me about $10 CDN to set it up.

Bruce

[Vengeance]

I've seen this explination for how to setup a vinigar and baking soda chamber.

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/

I'd like to see your explination as well.

Like I said I have no idea if the idea is pratical or not, just brainstorming ideas is all. In the end I'm sure I'll either use a co2 canister or the baking soda method because I'm not sure of any other ways to go about it.

[Cruciform]

I tried the baking soda and vinegar setup, increasing the amounts to match the size of my small rubbermaid.

I think the smaller the container, the better. After 20 minutes the mouse I was testing it with was altered and gasping, but not fatally injured. She was suffering so I resorted to whacking to end her suffering. It may be that she was just an extremely resilient little creature. She revived twice from two whacks that would have killed a small dog. All was not in vain though, as she was eaten by an obliging BP.

I modified the rubbermaid system I build to accomodate my CO2 tank. I'll post pictures when I get home. It looks pretty spiffy :)

[Vengeance]

I'd like to see the pictures of other people gas chambers.

[annieb_mice]

I use CO2 from a cannister usually, but out of curiousity more than anything else, I tried using the set-up that is described in the link that Vengeance supplied. I tried it in two difference situations.
With the first, I tried it on one large adult rat, approximately 180 grams, in a shoe-box sized Sterylite container with a hose in the lid. It took approximately 2 minutes for the rat to fall asleep, and within 10 minutes it was completely dead. I did not notice any of the convulsions that can happen when using compressed CO2 from a cannister. I used approximately 3 cups of vinegar mixed with 6 tablespoons of baking soda.
In the second trial, I used the same size sterylite container with three large adult rats, all about the same size as the first one. They were all unconcious in less than a minute and dead within 5 minutes. I used the same amount of vinegar and baking soda as for the first one.
If you are only wanting to kill one or two animals, this method will take a bit longer, but seems to be very effective and a pretty cheap alternative. Obviously, the more animals you are killing at one time greatly reduces the length of time for death.
Personally, I would recommend this method if you are looking for a cheap and effective alternative to "whacking." Both times I've used this method, I've found it to be very effective and humane and very easy for most people to set up and use.
Thanks to Vengeance for finding that site!
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[jjnnbns]

Dry ice and water also works extremely well, and if you have any extra dry ice its pretty fun to toss it in a 20 oz bottle w/ water and let er rip! Just be careful...

[Vengeance]

I can't take credit for finding that site, Daver676 found it in another thread, I just used his link.

[annieb_mice]

LOL... well... I knew I saw the link here SOMEWHERE... and since you were the one to post it in this thread... I wasn't sure. :)
Good luck
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Lisa]

burning up the oxygen will give you more then co2. besides oxygen you will have other things in the mix, plus fuel. oxygen isn't a fuel, it's just what the fire needs to breath (basic grade school science). you will end up with hydrocarbons, amongst other things.

As a CO2 source i use dry ice... it's cheap. and it works well.

I take a sweater box crammed with rats and place a small container of hot water and dry ice in the sweater box.

15 minutes later they're done. and ready to freeze

because the rats are still pretty warm I put whats left (alot) of the dry ice in my freezer too so it doesn't have to work as hard (I just spread it).

Because of the way the dry ice fogs it increases the co2 in the chamber at a humane rate (with a tank you run the risk of increasing too fast). CO2 is also heavier then air so it pushes the rest of the air out of the top of your container.

When I pick up dry ice I get about a kilo or so... and if i put it in the freezer with in an hour i have some left over the next day

[Vengeance]

I wanted to use dry ice but I'm moveing up to Keswick. There arn't any Praxair dealers anywhere near keswick, so I need an another method.

[daver676]

Originally posted by Vengeance
I can't take credit for finding that site, Daver676 found it in another thread, I just used his link.

I'm glad someone has now tested this method and it's getting some positive feedback. I too am a person who doesn't enjoy whacking, so for the extra time and expense, baking soda and vinegar spares me some grief and guilt. :)

[daver676]

Hmmm... Seems the link is dead now.....:confused:

[annieb_mice]

Really? It still works for me... :) Maybe you got the link wrong? http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/
I wanted to try it out because I know of several people that breed their own feeder rodents and wanted to get a humane way of killing them without paying a lot of money for a CO2 tank. These people were only killing a few mice or rats at a time, so the baking soda/vinegar setup was perfect for them. :)
I really recommend it for people who only need to kill a few animals at a time. :)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Steele]

I billt a vin and bakingsoda gas chaber and it workes grat I should not take to long for the rats do die if ittakes to long more gas I have found that malt vin workes better

[xfade7]

I just made a gas chamber w/ a milk carton (1 gallon size), and a grocery bag. took me a total of 2 mins to setup. I think I mixed the vinegar and the baking soda too fast because the bag was about to explode and in turn was forced out the tube and into the cage fast. the mouse started weezing and laying down.. then I looked back in about 5 mins and it was there, still. with its eyes open not breating. so it took a grand total of 5 minutes to kill the mouse. I will try it with about 10 in a couple days.

I have so many mice so often i was making a business of selling them over the internet frozen.. there is probably too much competition and I dont know how I would keep them frozen while they shipped..

xfade7

[annieb_mice]

*** Dry ice is great for keeping mice frozen when you do "next day" shipping. I know of a few "feeder breeders" that use regular ice, but I find that it melts WAY too fast and when the order arrives the mice are half thawed, if not completely thawed. :P Not the best if you want to make a name for yourself. You will also want to check around for a good reliable shipper that doesn't charge an arm and a leg.
Good luck!
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[xfade7]

Thanks for the advice, What type of rack, cages, and water bottles do you think would be ideal? I know that I will probably stick w/ the sweater type of flat bottom/top boxes from walmart or something. I'm mainly looking for the most cost effective way to maintain a large colony of mice. I think 1 male per 5 females in a steralite container will suffice. Anyone with suggestions, I would be glad to hear them. Once the steralite containers are paid for and such, the whole thing would be pure profit. Since I already have snakes, it would be ideal for me. thanks

xfade7

[annieb_mice]

Well... you are REALLY going to have to seriously think this through. Having a large number of mice, or rats, will start to get VERY smelly... and to be perfectly honest, NO, it is NOT pure profit. You have to buy food, shavings, meds when needed, replacement bins, water bottles, ect.
I have a LOT of animals, and for me this is a full time job and is how I support myself. The smell, now that it is getting to be summer, can get bad if I am unable to keep my "cleaning" schedule. You also have to think about WHERE you plan to keep all these rodents, and whether your neighbours are going to complain. There is a HUGE difference in keeping a few bins of mice in your bedroom to feed your snakes and keeping several thousand rodents.
There is also the question of how you would plan to kill the animals when you have that many. Using a home made solution of Vinegar and Baking soda wouldn't be efficient or cheap when you plan to kill a large number of animals at one time. You will also have to invest in a freezer to store them.
I'm not trying to put you off... but I do want to make sure you are looking at this realistically and not thinking you can just jump right in and make tons of money right away. There are several feeder breeders on this forum, myself included, and I'm sure they will be glad to help you out with any questions or whatever. :)
Oh... and in response to your questions.... I use sterylite containers and have one male to four females and find that to be perfect. No over crowding and the male and females don't get "overworked." I personally prefer to use water bottles so if I need to administer medications or whatever I can simply add it to the drinking water without having to worry about whether the bin that NEEDS the meds are actually getting them or not. Others prefer to use a professional watering system. The automatic watering system does make things a LOT more easier to maintain. The water bottles do have to be checked on every couple of days. Generally when I clean the bins out, I give everyone fresh water.
Anyways.... good luck!!
Annie B. <:3 )~~