Please Do Not Kill The Snake

[Mustangrde1]

Please Do Not Kill The Snake

I was recently called by a neighbor to identify a snake in the garage. This is nothing new for me or many other Reptile Keepers. I went and Identified it has a Harmless Scarlet King Snake. They both were very adamant that it was in fact the Dangerous Coral snake and told me in years past they would have just taken a shovel to it. How many times have we heard this story of killing a snake because it is perceived as dangerous or in “someone’s” house?

Which is Dangerous Which is Harmless?
<img src="http://novogate.com/forums/1046/user/26764/14977.jpg">

In the United States we actually have Three species of Coral Snake, The Eastern The Texas and The Arizona. Yet we have many species of Tricolor snakes that people mistake for the more dangerous tricolor Corals. It is important that anyone living in an area never touch any snake they do not recognize. Even if you recognize the snake as venomous and have worked with non-venomous snakes Leave it Alone it really is not worth the risk. Please leave the handling and manipulation of venomous snakes to people who have the proper tools and training to work with them.

If you find a snake in their house “ not yours , after all you built your home on their property” You can if its in the house pull the trash bag out of your trash can and lay the can down on its side and with a long handled broom gently brush it in the can. Place the lid back on it and call your local Animal Control Agency.

If you find a snake in Its Garage the same technique hold true or take that same offending shovel and a broom and sweep it on the shovel and let it go back in its nice Rose Garden. If you just have to have it removed from its property. Sweep it in the can and call the professionals.

I believe it to be our responsibility to educate persons whenever possible. So I proceeded to explain to my two neighbors the difference and a simple way to tell them apart. I do not believe in using the old Rhyme of red touches yellow kill a fellow. As that if you run across an aberrant specimen it may not hold true. What I do like to tell people is to think of a stop sign Yellow means Caution, Red Means stop so just like a stop sign if red and yellow touch you better not.

So were you right about which is a coral and which is a Scarlet King

<img src="http://novogate.com/forums/1046/user/26764/14978.jpg">

<img src="http://novogate.com/forums/1046/user/26764/14979.jpg">

Top is The dangerous Coral Snake. Bottom is the Harmless Scarlet King.

[wyz]

Easy way to remember for me instead of using the many riddles around.

The red cross signifies medical aid... so I say to myself if the white and red touch (like on the red cross logo) then there's danger :)

We can also change the white for yellow..

WYZ

[jungle_man86]

this is what i use to remember "red on black your ok jack" "red on yellow your a dead fellow"

[M_surinamensis]

Rhymes relating to the color touching are just plain stupid. Period. End of debate they do NOT work.

The following photos are not mine... are the animals in them harmless or dangerous? Coral snakes or not?

Edit: removed first photo, annoyingly large.

How about this one?

http://snakequiz.com/pict/micrurus.jpg

If you do not know *exactly* what any given snake is, then leave it alone. Do not mumble some idiotic rhyme and then get yourself bit.

[Gary O]

Seamus good post.

[M_surinamensis]

Thank you Sir.

I may have been a bit blunt, but I just got done having this exact argument with someone in person.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Aquatic corals, suck. Pigmy black heads are way better.

It amazes me on how everyone here still think watersnakes are cottonmouths..
Easterns and Texan are ssp.. Wouldnt that mean we only have 2 species of coral here?

[M_surinamensis]

Aquatic corals whatnow?!

Remember... I know where you live.

I really dislike all the inaccuracies that abound in the states about venomous versus non-venomous species. The color rhymes are horrible and wrong, pupil shape is NOT a universal indicator of toxicity and there are plenty of snakes with pointed heads which are harmless... and plenty with rounded heads which are not.

It's bad enough when someone who's in a position where ignorance is only expected starts spouting that kind of stuff but to see herpers saying it... Makes me... not happy.

[Crotalus75]

"Easterns and Texan are ssp.. Wouldnt that mean we only have 2 species of coral here?"

There are 3 distinct species of coral snake that are native to the U.S.:

Micrurus fulvius
Micrurus tener
Micruroides euryxanthus

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

I seem to be stuck in the past.. When did Micrurus fulvius tener become Micrurus tener?

[Mustangrde1]

From that pic red on black and your dead jack...... Another reason rhymes do not work. then again that is a south american coral not native to north america. still best to leave it alone if you dont know and if you do know and do not have experiance leave it alone.

[Knightmare113]

That was agood post mustang and I really hate to shoot you down on this but, it seems to me that the people who would just kill a snake they don t want around probably wouldn t be viewing this site.

[Mustangrde1]

Ture but they have friends they can reffer to sites for help and advice. always look for ways to help wildlife

[xfade7]

red on black is a friend of jack, red on yellow could kill a fellow... easy to remember, and it works.

[M_surinamensis]

Er... Alright Xfade7, the animal I posted a picture of, is it harmless or venomous?

[xfade7]

harmless

[allamericanPD]

red touches yellow kills a fellow red touches black venom lack

[M_surinamensis]

Really? Totally harmless eh?

In case you missed it, the snake in the photo I posted is a Micrurus surinamensis- amazon giant coral snake, giant aquatic coral snake, amazon aquatic coral snake... It's venomous, gets somewhere between about five and six feet long on average and packs a pretty mean (not the worst but pretty nasty) punch in terms of toxicity and venom yeild. And at six feet it can certainly get it's teeth into you.

Once again... Rhymes are stupid and do NOT work. If you don't know exactly what a snake is, then leave it alone or, if you absolutely have to handle it, treat it as being venomous, agressive and capable of moving quicker than you can.

[psilocybe]

Seamus,

Although I do agree with you that rhymes are a stupid and childish way of distinguishing hot from not, it DOES work for N. American corals...a person is highly unlikely to encounter M. surinamensis in the wild here in the states. I have heard of aberant patterns, etc. in N.A. corals, but I have yet to see a picture of a N.A. coral that didn't fit in the rhyme...please post a pic if you have one, and I'll be more than happy to retract my statement :)

Abhishek Prasad

[M_surinamensis]

You're going to make me go looking for photos, aren't you?

I have personally seen a melanistic eastern coral, jet black and in no way coral-looking... Albinos crop up from time to time...

I did own a thayeri for awhile which, according to the rhymes, was a coral snake and have heard antecdotal accounts of other people having similarly abberent scarlet snakes, eastern milks, variable kings and so on.

I'll poke around for some pictures, no promises though.

[psilocybe]

LOL, I didn't intend to send you off on a wild goose chase Seamus, I'll take your word for it...I just have not personally seen such specimens. Like I said though, I also do not agree with using a nursery rhyme to make potentially life-threatening decisions (like picking up an unidentified snake), so I'm not really disagreeing with you...on a side note, a melanistic eastern coral, huh? That must have been a sight...I gotta go now, you're making me jealous :)

AP

[Mustangrde1]

I havent seen them myself I would love to ive only seen a couple pictures best way to describe it was a minature Pak Black

[M_surinamensis]

I can't find any photos online... not easily anyway. I did find refernces to Reptiles magazine and a melanistic texas coral though... Don't get the magazine, can't really say how accurate that may or may not be or which issue you'd have to check.

I know Scott treats that rag like it was the herper's bible though (Joking Scott, calm down) and he or someone else might have an issue number.

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by M_surinamensis

I know Scott treats that rag like it was the herper's bible though (Joking Scott, calm down) and he or someone else might have an issue number.

A herper's bible, or the latest issue of Hustler? :medmummy: LOL

As for the pictures...
It's okay Seamus, I'll take your word for it...like I said, I'd heard of aberrant specimens as well, but have never seen one...

AP

[M_surinamensis]

Oh yeah, by no means are abberent animals common (or they wouldn't be abberent) and the rhymes do work on normally patterned animals within the United States (they stop working in Southern Mexico so it's not even safe to say "North America") but because they aren't universal indicators I try to downplay them whenever the subject is raised.

Heck, we've got two people on this thread who would have grabbed that surinamensis barehanded because they believed it was harmless (Which raises an interesting story about Henry Winkler, but it's not my story to tell).

I like to stress "If you don't know exactly what it is, leave it alone."

Or for those of us who feel confident enough to poke 'em anyway, poke them with a hook if the species isn't known, treat them as potentially dangerous until you're positive that is not the case.

[M_surinamensis]

And Scott... can you open the pages on the latest copy of Reptiles or are they all stuck together?

(I'm going to assume with glue, because kids read this board and I'm getting dangerously close to crossing lines)

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by M_surinamensis


I like to stress "If you don't know exactly what it is, leave it alone."



I treat every wild snake I come across as venomous until I can identify it...considering the only hots in my range are rattlers, it's not very hard. If it's not a rattler, it's not venomous (or at least medically signifigant). Unfortunately, there are no corals where I live (S.E. New Mexico).

[herpetological]

Seamus, I might be able to help....I'll dig up some pics of an Eastern Coral with no red bands...Collected in Fellsmere in 1992 and a Eastern that had no yellow bands for the first third collected in Homestead in 1998. I also have pics of 3 scarlet kings that I hatched in 1989 with less than 4 red bands. Also a Scarlet king with no ventral pattern(YES I KNOW...NOT A SCARLET SNAKE!! SCALE COUNTS ETC...) Collected in Frostproof in 1994. In the U. Fl. collection now. I may still have some pics of spixi somewhere. I recieved two that were over 5 ft. in the late 90's.

[Mustangrde1]

Um dont get Reptiles Mag myself. Just preffer to actually read the scientific papers and journals and old field notes. and bug the hell out of a gentleman who has been know to jump in a few canals and swamps and play bat the 747 blood suckers in S FL.