selling indigenous herps?

[dave68]

I don't know about the rest of the country, but in BC it is illegal to keep, let alone sell indigenous species like garter snakes gopher snakes etc... Just curious if anybody has any info on this matter as i've seen posts from Saskatchewan and Ontario from people selling garter snakes. Anybody know?

[kcsnakes]

I don't think it is illegal in saskatchewan to keep indigenous snakes like garters. I jsut dont think that you can sell WC but I am pretty sure you could sell CB garters. Please tell me if I am wrong but I don't think garters are endangered there.

[Scales Zoo]

In Saskatchewan, you can collect garter snakes to keep as pets.

However, you can not collect them for commercial purposes. Collecting gravid females, waiting for the babies be born, then selling the offspring, is "collecting for commercial purposes" and is not allowed.

Currently, I've been told, CBB garters can be sold in Saskatchewan - ie, someone buys some from a breeder in Ontario, and then has babies from those.

Ryan

[kcsnakes]

Ok, then here is a question to that. How do they regulate it? I mean how does any one prove that you caught them and sold the babies rather than buying adults and selling babies. Here's another question. If someone was to catch them, keep them as pets, breed them, and then breed babies from them, is that legal then??

[Katt]

If you actually put the effort into feeding, brumating and breeding the adults, for at least a year, then you can claim to have "bred" them, not just go out and catch gravid animals, wait til they drop and then sell the babies. Babies in the former situation would be considered CB, whilst the latter would be CH, basically the same as "farming".

And for that matter, there is *NO* market for garters. There are very few garter enthusiasts in Canada. I currently live with one such enthusiast, and I am sure, he wouldn't shell out big bucks for them either. Unless they are flames, (the ones in the classifieds are truly tempting).

To go out and catch gravid animals and then sell the babies seems to me a true waste of time, especially in the case of garters.

[Scales Zoo]

If you have a receipt for c.b gartersnakes, you can prove they are c.b. and the local C.O's could talk to the breeder you bought them from.

If you don't have a receipt, and you live where plains garters live, then you can't really prove you didn't collect gravid females.

In Swift Current, for example, the plains garters have a lot of red on them compared to other places in Canada.

I know 2 biologists who can tell the locality of native species by scale counts. One accuratly sexes the snake by looking at a shed skin, after determining what approximate locality the snake came from.

Ryan

[dave68]

I was once told that I couldn't keep nothern pine snakes because they are in the same family(pituophis)as the great basin gopher snake which is indigenous to the okanagan. No garters either,you guys in Sask. are lucky. Any BC people know any more legalities to fill me in maybe I heard wrong previously.

[Jaeds]

If you actually put the effort into feeding, brumating and breeding the adults, for at least a year, then you can claim to have "bred" them

If you have a receipt for c.b gartersnakes, you can prove they are c.b. and the local C.O's could talk to the breeder you bought them from.

I dont get how anyone could tell if you just caught wild snakes and sold the babies instead of keeping them for a year and breeding them then. And if you did that then you would never have reciepts

[Scales Zoo]

jjaj02, kcsnakes, jaeds...

You've got the same IP, which means all the posts came from the same computer. Your not fooling anybody.

Pick a username and stick with it, 1 name / person.

This "catching wild snakes and selling the babies" thing is not about how a person can get around laws or find loop holes, it is about ethics. By taking gravid snakes from the wild, you are doing the same thing as if you collected 20 or 30 babies from the wild and selling them. It's wrong you shouldn't do it, stick to breeding corn snakes.

Ryan

[Vanan]

Well said SCALES.

dave68, only subspecies of Pituophis catenifer are considered wildlife and thus illegal. That includes bullsnakes (P. c. sayi). Pines are P. melanoleucus ssp. Hope this helps. :)

[dave68]

I only started this thread to discuss if anyone actually knew of applicable laws in this regard, not because i had any intention of breeding and selling garter snakes. Sorry if I touched a sore spot with some.

[Katt]

dave68, you can keep northern pines as they are not P. catenifer (gophers/bulls).

Here's the BC regs.

http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/W/Wildlife/168_90.htm

[Scales Zoo]

Dave68, you never touched a sore spot. Others trying to figure out a way around the laws, and being sneaky with 3 usernames did.

It's good you are trying to find out the laws, I'm sorry if you thought any sour tone in any posts were directed towards you, they weren't meant to be.

Ryan

[dave68]

Ryan, I was pretty sure there was no sour tones directed my way but wanted to make sure. Thanks for all the replies.
Katt-Thanks for the link to the BC regs, helps alot.

[Oliverian]

Jeez! ANOTHER Dave from the Okanagan? How am I expected to keep it all together? AAAH!

...Oh well, I guess when I'm with a bunch of herpers and can't remember names, I'll just call everyone Dave and get it right like half the time. :D

-TammyR

[Oliverian]

Oh... and with everything else being said... If you're really into the indigenous species and you find someone who's selling CB ones, the authorities really aren't going to go around and check to see if you have local herps. So if you really like them and it won't mess with anything in the wild, I say go for it. Just my view on things.
-TammyR

[Katt]

Tammy, you horrible law breaker you! ;)

[Jaeds]

No one ever said that anyone was catching garters and selling them. I was just wondering what the laws were. Its just speculation. I myself have owned a few of them for a couple years.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Well I won't comment on BC or Saskatchewan, but here in Ontario, it is legal, at the present, to sell *legally obtained* red-sided and eastern garters without any sort of permit. Butler's garters, OTOH, being a species at risk, require permits for possession/acquistion/etc. Theoretically it is against the law to collect garters without a small game hunting license, unless you are a farmer on your own land. In reality, no one is likely to bother you regarding garters, but I would always recommend following the rules. Plus, I think that it is not a good idea to collect ANY without a very good reason. There are CB ones around if you look for them. In fact, for red-sideds, they aren't even hard to find- just contact Jonathan Crowe!

One of the biggest difficulties with rules regarding the possession of wildlife is identification of specimens. How to tell if something is wild caught vs. captive bred, if it is the same one you had last year, etc. PIT tagging is getting the most attention currently as a method to solve this, especially here in Ontario, and in Ohio. It is not without faults, though.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Oliverian]

Tammy, you horrible law breaker you! Hehehe... :D Ahem... uh.... that wasn't the only law I broke in Calgary.... ;)

Ask Vanan, he might have an idea. (mabye...)

[Vanan]

;)