Whacking/Live feeding/etc.

[ChristinaM]

Ok, yes I'm aware these topics have been discussed many times. I have been browsing through previous posts for the lat hr/and a half. But I have yet to find a really really good post on the questions I have.

1. does anyone have a little video, or anything like thing of how to whack?

2. is there something wrong with feeding live young rats ( ie. pinkies or fuzzies )? I am aware of the dangers of feeding live older prey, I have seen the pics of snake damage done by prey. But a fuzzy or pinkie, I don't see how it could harm the snake.

Is it just an ethical choice, of the length of time the prey suffers, or can even small babies cause damage to the snake?

3. If one does feed live, and stays to make sure the snake kills, eats, etc. and the prey cannot damage the snake, is there still risks to the snake from feeding live?


Alot of this is stemming from, my momma rat just birthed her first litter last Thurs.

Last night was feeding night for 2 of my snakes.

I fed my corn 2 live pinkies. I stayed and watched. The first one died within a minute I would say. The second one did not. It took longer. I'm aware of the ethical issues, the humanity or lacktherof. Trust me, I did not feel good watching the second rat suffer.

I'm trying to ready myself for what to do as the rat pups age and need to be frozen, etc. I only have the one snake that eats pups. Everything else eats a minimum of 70g prey. So I will have to choose how to euthanise, or feed live/stunned, etc. There's an inner battle going on, and I'm hoping researching this will help.

I appreciate your time, and any links to specific discussions, etc. would be appreciated.

thanks.

[M_surinamensis]

1) While it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea in one respect, since the point of prekilling prey is twofold and one of the issues is to make it quick and clean and that means knowing how to best go about it... Imagine such a video in the hands of an Animal Rights nutjob group, the fallout would be bad. Very very bad.

2) They can't physically harm the snake, although big fuzzies are kinda borderline... There's the ethical issue you raised but that's something everyone must decide for themselves... The only really negative aspect would be the tendency of certain species to be picky feeders and the fact that there is a possibility of the snake then refusing prekilled or F/T prey at a later time. Prekilling pinkies/fuzzies/rat pups isn't quite the same as prekilling subadult or adult rodents though, the tail isn't fully formed or particularly strong- trying the typical method would just result in removing the tail. Personally I've found that for those borderline rat pups that have just gotten their teeth and hopper mice, a quick pinch to the back of the skull where it joins the neck does the trick quickly and easily but there's a certain knack to it that makes it difficult to describe. Many people (including myself at times) will flick the tiny little guys with a fingernail, but sometimes this might take more than one try.

3) A minimal one of course, in that an adult rat can cause some pretty serious damage before you can remove it from the enclosure but supervised feeding of live prey isn't the criminal act that some people seem to believe it is. The danger is lessened because you'll risk getting bit yourself to remove the prey item if it begins to go poorly and the moral issue is, again, a personal thing.

[daver676]

I was just thinking about starting a similar thread since currently I'm feeding my ball live 150g rats, and I'd like to start the switch to f/t.

I'm armed with two things when I feed live. A rat dangling by the tail with one hand, and a set of tongs with the other. Lower the rat to the snake, snake takes rat, grab rats head with tongs until dead. It's working well so far, but I know it's just a matter of time. I'm thinking, since I don't think wacking is for me, of building a small CO2 (baking soda+vinegar) gas chamber.

Here are a few ideas for CO2 chambers:

CO2 Chamber using vinegar and baking soda. (http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/)

[Auskan]

The way I whack the younger pinkies & fuzzies that do not yet have well developed tails, is to put them in a little ziploc bag and whack that real hard against the corner of a table. It never requires a second whack and I don't have to worry about the tail coming off.

[latazyo]

you can pinch a pinkie's head and destroy its brains instantly

[Linds]

I always chuck em in a bag ans smash them off the concrete. I can't do it by the tail or I end up smashing my hand :eek: I've also ended up snapping off a few tails before :o

Pinkies and small fuzzies I just pinch their skulls in forcing their brains back in to their bodies (have to get the angle right or it shoots out the nose). They have very thin skin and more often than not when I wack them they have split right open, but have still been alive :eek:

[Wizwise2000]

Wow!!! I've never smashed one so hard the tails snapped off LOL:)

I break the necks of younger rodents and whack most of the bigger ones by the tail off a desk or something. Whacking them is effective.

Shane

[sapphire_moon]

when killing rats that has yet to open their eyes, I snap their necks. When killing rats that have a light fuzz to no fuzz, I flick the back of their heads, and break their necks.

Anything that has it's eyes open (if I have enough of them) I just gass them, if I don't have enough (under 20), I whack'em

[annieb_mice]

1. does anyone have a little video, or anything like thing of how to whack?

*** Unfortunately, no.


2. is there something wrong with feeding live young rats ( ie. pinkies or fuzzies )? I am aware of the dangers of feeding live older prey, I have seen the pics of snake damage done by prey. But a fuzzy or pinkie, I don't see how it could harm the snake.

Is it just an ethical choice, of the length of time the prey suffers, or can even small babies cause damage to the snake?

*** For the most part, this is really just a personal choice. Larger fuzzies might be able to inflict minor damage, but I believe this is rare.


3. If one does feed live, and stays to make sure the snake kills, eats, etc. and the prey cannot damage the snake, is there still risks to the snake from feeding live?


*** Live feeding always involves risks. Not only from the rodents themselves, but also from the various parasites that might be on the rodents. Freezing kills all the parasites dead. When you feed live, you are risking the possibility of transferring a nasty parasite to your snake.
There is also the problem of the snake becoming a fussy eater when it is bigger. Feeding frozen/thawed from day one prevents this.


I fed my corn 2 live pinkies. I stayed and watched. The first one died within a minute I would say. The second one did not. It took longer. I'm aware of the ethical issues, the humanity or lacktherof. Trust me, I did not feel good watching the second rat suffer.


*** Unless you are a sadist, this is always hard to watch. I made that mistake once... and ONLY once, and from then on have fed F/T. I know it sounds stupid... after all, I kill mice and rats everyday and don't give it a second thought. But I don't like to see animals suffering, so I chose the quickest and most humane way ... CO2.


I'm trying to ready myself for what to do as the rat pups age and need to be frozen, etc. I only have the one snake that eats pups. Everything else eats a minimum of 70g prey. So I will have to choose how to euthanise, or feed live/stunned, etc. There's an inner battle going on, and I'm hoping researching this will help.

*** I'm glad to see someone actually taking the time to research! In the end... whatever you decide to do, whether live or F/T, is entirely up to you. Try to make your decision not on what OTHERS will tell you to do, but on what YOU can live with. Some people can deal with live feeding, some prefer frozen/thawed. Others chose to stun the rodent first.
However you decide to offer the prey item, remember to think of what consequences it could have on your snake and whether you can live with it.
Good Luck!
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[jjnnbns]

Dry ice and water works well and is fairly inexpensive. Whacking young mice and rats definitely causes them to split and makes a big ol mess.

I've never heard the vinegar and baking soda thing before

[M_surinamensis]

Justa couple things...

" Live feeding always involves risks. Not only from the rodents themselves, but also from the various parasites that might be on the rodents. Freezing kills all the parasites dead."

Is simply not true. It kills most parasites- not all. While it's certainly a great way to reduce the potential risk by an enormous amount, it is not a surefire way to kill off every parasite that a feeder rodent is capable of carrying. Especially when discussing the temperatures used to keep rodents fresh (Not too much lower than those in a home freezer for the initial freeze).

"There is also the problem of the snake becoming a fussy eater when it is bigger. Feeding frozen/thawed from day one prevents this."

Is also not universally true. Certain species will become picky feeders at the drop of a hat, regardless of what they may or may not have ever eaten before... while feeding a live animal can often interrupt a feeding routine and cause reluctance to accept prekilled, there are situations where snakes will, despite having taken exactly what you wanted to give them for years on end... suddenly decide they want nothing but frogs... or birds... or live rodents with a certain color fur.

Both of your statements are valid... to a point. It's just important not to phrase them as absolutes.

[annieb_mice]

Sorry... you are right... I should have said ... It kills MOST of the possible parasites... LOL! I've only had one problem with mites... YEARS ago... and haven't had anything since. Which parasites can withstand the freezing temperatures?? I can't think of any so I'm curious. :)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[daver676]

What type of parasite are we talking about here. Internal? External? Both? What types of parasites can be transfered from a rat to a snake? I've been told many times before that most types of parasites are host specific.

[ChristinaM]

Thank you all very much :) Annie, I appreciate your lengthy response, thanks for taking the time to write it.

On the parasite front, I breed my own rats, and know of the conditions they are kept, etc....they "shouldn't" have any parasites. Does that help my case, in the sense that there should be minimal risk of the live wee ones giving my snakes any parasites?

:)

[jim mcallister]

Are the snake mites host specific? I was always under the impression that snakes could not get mites from rodents? but from other snakes...

[Auskan]

Originally posted by jjnnbns
Dry ice and water works well and is fairly inexpensive. Whacking young mice and rats definitely causes them to split and makes a big ol mess.


I've never once had a mouse or rat pup split, and I whack them as hard as I can against the edge of a table, or the bathroom vanity, as I want it to kill them instantly - not leave them suffering and have to re-do it. I've whacked everything from hour old rat pinks to 4-week-old rat pups, always killed them instantly and never had one split.

[M_surinamensis]

Many parasites are very host specific, others are a bit more generalist...

Snake and rodent mites are good examples of highly host specific parasites, they really won't cross from one group to the other to feed. I personally (and I *think* the thread starter) were thinking more of internal parasites though. Many of these are pretty host specific as well, some are not.

With regards to which ones won't be killed... I don't remember specific species offhand. There were a few groups and a few individual species that won't be killed off but will instead go dormant; a few species of worm and a good cross section of bacterial parasites. I moved recently and most my books are still boxed up, I can go digging if you like, but no guarantees on how long it might take me to locate the specific information (I get easily distracted).

It's really an issue of the temperatures used. If you freeze a living organism cold enough, it will eventually die. The question centers around how cold is "cold enough" to get everything. Commercial producers of frozen rodents generally "flash freeze" which involves extremely low temperatures applied very quickly... this is going to kill off more gut fauna than someone whacking their own and dropping it in the freezer next to their burger patties and Hot Pockets... On the other hand though, commercial breeders deal with a far larger number of rodents and, no matter how clean they keep everything, parasite communication is more likely to occur than when dealing with a home breeder who has a colony of a dozen adult feeder breeders. Even the methods used by the commercial rodent breeders aren't 100% though and going the opposite end of the spectrum... everything that has an intestinal tract has parasites, it's a question of how nasty they are and what the population density is, so even a pristine immaculate home breeding setup will have *some* parasites in it.

I didn't wish to give the impression that using frozen rodents was in any way bad or pointless... it greatly reduces the chances of parasitic transmission and I feel that every (non-venomous, although that's a long standing debate) animal which will take frozen thawed should be given frozen thawed... But if there's a picky animal, it needs to be fed what it will take. If that's freshly whacked or even live, then so be it.

Parasite transmission is a valid argument against freshly killed prey items, but it's important to keep it in perspective. Feeding captive bred rodents kept in clean conditions leaves a very small chance of parasitic transmission. Freezing makes for an even smaller chance (not 100% clear, but very very very close) but it's an improvement on a situation which is already close to ideal.

I can't draw very well, but I'm going to talk to a friend to see if they can knock me up a kind of diagram to describe where to apply pressure and the angles involved in prekilling rodents. It's not as good as a video would be and even then there's a certain FEEL to the entire process that lets someone know they are doing it correctly (the sudden release of resistance can be difficult to explain) that can only be gained by trying it until it's done right but... couldn't hurt and it might be of some help. Maybe. To someone. Somewhere.

[jjnnbns]

Auskan, you're lucky. Well over 50% of the rat pinks that I've whacked have split back near the hind leg/pelvic region. I had them in a plastic ziploc bag and used a hard tabletop surface. Hmmm, maybe I just have superhuman strength, lol. That's why I built a gas chamber for them and I didn't breed rats at the time, just bought a few every couple weeks.

[annieb_mice]

<< I moved recently and most my books are still boxed up, I can go digging if you like, but no guarantees on how long it might take me to locate the specific information (I get easily distracted). >>

I would REALLY be interested! My research on the internet hasn't turned up much information and I really despise the "pet rat" information pages, which are VERY misleading and in many cases outright wrong.
You can email me privately if you want, as I'm sure people on here probably won't be too interested in the whole parasitic information stuff... but I love to learn new stuff and I'm sure this knowledge will help me in some way. My email is annieb_mice@yahoo.com Take your time, I know what it's like to move and try to organize in a new place... and stuff... LOL!

I'm not sure if the people who are whacking the pinkie rats are trying fresh killed, but rat and mouse pinks are VERY easily killed by putting them in a freezer for a few minutes. Heck, I've found that most of the mouse pinks are dead within 30 seconds, or at the very least "asleep." I realize you would then have to warm them up again, but if you are a bit squeamish about the whole whacking process, putting them in a freezer for a few minutes works great. I don't recommend doing this with animals that already have their eyes open, but this works good on the hairless pinks and peach fuzz stages.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

"I'm a Newfie... I'm half an hour behind everyone else."

[marisa]

I do what Annie does.....for pinkies and slightly larger they go directly into the freezer.

For anything bigger, we have a whacking day and my boyfriend uses a board and a large screwdriver handle. One whack with the handle and they are DEAD. :P Took some practice but now he can do it instantly, with no blood in almost 100% of the mice we do in a day.

Marisa

[Auskan]

Originally posted by annieb_mice
[BI'm not sure if the people who are whacking the pinkie rats are trying fresh killed, but rat and mouse pinks are VERY easily killed by putting them in a freezer for a few minutes. [/B]

I personally think this is an inhumane way to kill them. Sure, hypothermia eventually causes sleepiness and you just go to sleep and don't wake up, but initially the cold is felt (try locking yourself outside your house in a nightgown in mid-January), and the body works hard to try to keep the temperature up, before submitting to hypothermia. Whacking is instant. I wouldn't put them through even 30 seconds of suffering if it could be avoided.

[annieb_mice]

<< I personally think this is an inhumane way to kill them. Sure, hypothermia eventually causes sleepiness and you just go to sleep and don't wake up, but initially the cold is felt (try locking yourself outside your house in a nightgown in mid-January), and the body works hard to try to keep the temperature up, before submitting to hypothermia. Whacking is instant. I wouldn't put them through even 30 seconds of suffering if it could be avoided. >>


*** I agree with you for the adult animals. But this is actually considered one of the most "humane" ways of killing a newborn mouse or rat, according to several University sites that I have visited, including the University of California and several others.
And there are some people that believe gassing them is inhumane as the CO2 mixture is irritating to the respiratory system and can be quite painful, yet this is widely accepted as one of most humane ways of killing.
Personally, I used to whack my animals, but after trying out CO2, I MUCH prefer that method to any other. No blood... no fuss... no mess... just a dead rodent. But.. that's just my opinion.. :)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[marisa]

I also remember reading the with young animals, Co2 is not very effective as they have such small lungs and it can take ages to kill them. I do not know if this is true though.

Marisa

[Cruciform]

I did my first CO2 gassing last night.
With the current valve on my tank I was able to get a very small amout of gas flowing but even then it was too much, and I watched the rats gasp, choke, collapse and seize before they died.

It was a terrible thing to see, and I hope I can get the flow control down to the point where sleepiness just creeps up on them.

[ChristinaM]

Ok, I've read TONS over the last few days. Alot of differing opinions especially on the CO2 methods. Some say it is the best, others say that there is sufferring, gasping, etc. ( like the above poster as well as some US university sites, which I will dig up the links for ). As well, I've read what someone mentioned about CO2 NOT being a good method for young rodents.

Personally, I am not into watching them gasp and choke, etc.
Nor do i think I can whack.

From what I have gathered, some conclusions:

- no matter what method you choose, there will be some sufferring. Whether it be fear from being shoved in a bag to be whacked, whacking gone wrong, CO2 not work properly, etc. There will be sufferring.

- the choice of how to kill the prey is a personal, ethical decision. One can give you suggestions, and how-to's, and ultimately its your choice what to do.

- the method of feeding your snake, live/frozen/whatever, is again a personal decision that can be debated over and over. Bottom line, there are pro's and con's to all methods.

- I cannot whack, knowing that it is possible that I will not do it right and have an alive, bloody rodent in my hands. If I could guarentee 100% death then maybe.

QUESTIONS:

1. I've read somewhere about freezing to euthanise. It said that freezing can destroy some of the organs, etc. and lower the nutritional value.

ethics aside, does freezing negatively impact the quality of the rodent?

[annieb_mice]

<< 1. I've read somewhere about freezing to euthanise. It said that freezing can destroy some of the organs, etc. and lower the nutritional value. >>

*** I would ONLY freeze NEWBORN mice and rats and very small fuzzies. When they are that young, they don't have the ability to generate their own body heat yet and die very quickly.
Older mice, from the larger fuzzy stage, can generate their own body heat and can stay alive for a long period of time in a freezer, which I feel is extremely cruel and inhumane.
When you chose to kill, you should do so quickly and with as little pain and/or suffering as possible to the animal you are about to kill.

<Does freezing affect the quality of the rodent?>

*** This depends on how long the animal is left in the freezer, whether it is properly vacuum sealed quickly or simply put into a ziplock bag or just left out.
An animal that is properly vacuum sealed quickly after freezing will have a freezer shelf life of between 2 - 3 years as long as the vacuum seal is not open. An animal in a ziplock bag will not last nearly as long and will start to deteriorate within 5 months. An animal left out will be freezer burnt and unedible within days of being frozen.
As for the actual freezing destroying any of the nutrients, I haven't heard anything ... but I've been wrong before... :) In my own personal opinion, I don't think there is any substantial loss of quality to a frozen rodent as compared to a freshly killed rodent.
There MIGHT be some "quality loss" with the different thawing methods... A rodent that is thawed and fed off quickly may have less bacteria growth than one that has been left out on the counter to thaw out in the early morning before you leave to work and then fed off in the evening when you get home has a lot more time for harmful bacteria to grow... <think of salmonella with raw chicken> Does this affect the quality of the rodent? Well... I think that's up to personal opinion. :) Some people do this... some don't.
Hmmm... I went a little off topic there... didn't I? LOL! Sorry for the ramblings.... :)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[ChristinaM]

hmmmmm, I don't think my question came out clear.

About freezing, I did not mean freezing after death. I read that freezing to euthanise can degrade the quality, as in the freezing process it destroys some of the organs/etc. I will try to find the link to where I read it. maybe that will help :)

I wasn't comparing fresh killed to frozen thawed.

siodenote: I was thinking as I was reading. I have aquariums. I have predatory fish which get live feeders to eat. I don't kill them before feeding. They are feed live and the fish eat em. It's not a quick process. Some of my fish enjoy wanderring around with prey clasped in their mouths. The prey very much alive. I've seen many a cichlid with a feeder fishes head sticking out of their mouth, and the feeder fish still breathing.....

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. just rambling.

[daver676]

Originally posted by ChristinaM
About freezing, I did not mean freezing after death. I read that freezing to euthanise can degrade the quality, as in the freezing process it destroys some of the organs/etc.

Not to mention freezing to euthanize is cruel as hell.

[ChristinaM]

Originally posted by daver676
Not to mention freezing to euthanize is cruel as hell.

I won't disagree with that one, for older prey. But am researching the thought of it on younger.

But, all ethical issues aside, does freezing the live prey to euthanize, degrade quality?

[Auskan]

Originally posted by ChristinaM
Whether it be fear from being shoved in a bag to be whacked

Mine have no fear of being "shoved" in a bag. For the pinkies, I use a little plastic ziploc bag and at that age they are too clueless to know what's happening. Once they have their eyes open, I use a cloth bag with a drawstring, which they enter willingly. When I open the neck of the bag, it looks like an inviting place to explore and they run right in. Then I simply close the drawstring, and whack and its all over. No fear. No mess. No fuss.

[M_surinamensis]

Freezing does have an effect on the tissue of the prey animal, rub your finger across the back of a frozen rat and check out all the hair that comes off... far more than would be the case for an unfrozen freshly killed animal. The tissue breakdown is pretty minimal however, as long as the freezing process is quick enough to prevent immediate decay and cold enough to ****** decomposition lonf term... Much like with a frozen steak though, eventually it will go bad.

As to placing the feeder rodent inside a bag and slamming them off a table... Messy. Imprecise and messy. Breaking the neck is much quicker, cleaner and easier, most you get then is a small nosebleed and those only infrequently.

[Auskan]

How is it messy to put them in a bag and whack them? I've never had even a drop of blood spilled in this way.

[marisa]

Auskan he is mentioning it because many of us have had rodents split when whacking in a bag, especially adults. I gave up on that method long ago when I had to do more than a few. Although many members here use that method.

IMHO and this might sound cruel, these are feeders not pets. And while they deserve a high qaulity of life and a humane death in the end the goal is a dead rodent going into a snakes mouth. And no matter which way you choose to kill, its far better than feeding live, for BOTH parties involved....prey and predator.

Marisa

[ChristinaM]

technical question: when whacking.....you bag the rodent, then do you hold the tail or just bag?
Do you aim for the head or whole body to hit the hard object?
Is there any way to describe how hard to hit?

[ChristinaM]

technical question: breaking the neck...

do you hold head in one hand body in other then twist?


for either this question or the one above, if you want to pm me go for it.
I'd like to hear as detailed "instructions" as possible before my first time arrives.

[marisa]

Christina-

For whacking what we do is use a board. It's about 6 by 8 inches....we take the mouse to be whacked and place near the edge of the board, naturally they grasp the edge normally and this stretches them out for a clean hit.

We use a screw driver. Yup. LOL. Actually we use the handle itself for the hitting, its about a toonie around thick and it only takes a minor strength hit to kill them instantly, and without blood almost every time. It does take awhile to get it, but once you have practice it is fast clean and easy. I can't really say how hard exactly. Just try a few times as bad as that sounds.

Marisa

[M_surinamensis]

When breaking the neck or a rat or a mouse, pressure is applied to the base of the skull where the spine meets the head, then the tail is pulled. If done properly, this will break the spinal cord away from the brain, killing the rodent pretty much instantly. For those massive old breeder rats that could probably eat a spaniel, I generally stun them first by flipping them upsidedown against a hard surface, then use *something* such as a screwdriver or a dowel to hold the head in place, pulling the base of the tail up and away at about a sixty to seventy degree angle. The big guys are a bit tougher to do, for obvious reasons... Little to normal sized rats and mice, I generally hold the head in one hand, with the nose facing my palm, my knuckles above the head and the neck between my index and middle fingers, then pull the base of the tail with the other hand, angling the pull up and away once again. Done properly, the rat will be slightly longer than it used to be, as the vertebre seperate. Do not grip the tip of the tail, as the skin will sometimes come off like a glove as you pull, grip only the third or so closest to the body.

[ChristinaM]

gag gag gag.
Please tell me it gets easier, please.

I thought about doing the above method, but as soon as I gripped, I hesitated and it squealed.

So I tried Marisa's way, kinda. Using a board, with baby rat wrapped in a cloth, I positioned the head so it was off the board, then flicked the back of the head/neck. I hate to say it, but my best was 3 flicks. One was absolutely awful cuz I could NOT get it right.

In the end, I have 5 dead, 12 day old fuzzy pink rat, and feel extremely nauseous.

But, I wanted to get "practice" in before the buggers opened their eyes.

A question......for Marisa, and anyone else:

when you whack, do you have the rodent covered or uncovered?

I had the babies coverred, and wonder if that restricted my blow a bit.
But I think I restricted it even more though, because I didn't want brains and blood all over the place, so I was timid, instead of doing it and getting it over with.

sigh.

[annieb_mice]

If you are feeding your snake prekilled prey, why not get a large order of frozen food? It makes it a WHOLE lot easier on you, and all you would have to do is thaw and serve. :)
Unless you need a "still twitching" body to entice the snake.
If you keep whacking it WILL get easier over time... and as sickening as it is now, this too will pass. The first time I whacked a mouse I didn't hit it hard enough and the poor thing "screamed" and was bleeding and I felt horrid! I just kept hitting the poor thing over and over and over hoping it would die... and it seemed to take forever! That was YEARS ago and it has gotten a LOT easier, though I now use CO2. Rats were harder on me though, as I used to keep several pet rats and didn't realize how much force you needed for an adult rat. :P I tried putting it in a pillowcase and whacking it... but the pillowcase split open and the poor rat was thrown across the room. So I decided to hold it by the tail... BIG mistake. It didn't die right away. I finally took a hammer and hit the head... or at least TRIED to. Anyways... at the end of THAT little experience, I spent nearly half an hour kneeling at the "porcelain altar." :P As I said... that was over ten years ago and things DID get easier.
You have the benefit of people helping to teach you to make things easier for you and the rodent. I didn't. :P Anyways... yes, it WILL get easier and yes, you WILL get better at this. :)
Now... go make yourself a nice hot cup of tea with some honey and relax. :) Or grab a cold beer... whichever you prefer... ;)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[marisa]

I agree if it makes you feel weird, buy pre frzoen. But I will say this, it gets MUCH easier like Annie said.

We don't cover them at all. We take one out, hold it by the tail, allow it to grasp the edge of the board and whack! :P

It really does lose more and more of its grossness and sadness as time goes by. Especially since each tiem you get better and better at it.

Marisa

[ChristinaM]

I'm really fussy on what I feed my pets. So I try to raise what feeders I can, hence the rats. I like knowing what goes into them, health, etc. I have assorted worms for my dragons and leo's, now the rats.

I still have a bunch of frozen rats from an order, my goal being to raise enough that by the time everything is gone from that order, I will have enough to supply my snakes without having to buy any.

Definately with more experience, I think I will get better at it, and it grow somewhat immune to killing the prey.

Personal accounts definately help. I know it sounds bad, but I guess I will just have to continue practicing till I'm whackin' with the best ;)

[M_surinamensis]

As has been said... first few times are always tough. You don't want to apply too much force and really make a mess... too little just hurts the animal without killing it, which is even worse to have to look at.

If you can force yourself to try a certain method, any method, until you can do it quickly and cleanly, even once... it all gets easier from there.

[annieb_mice]

Originally posted by ChristinaM
Personal accounts definately help. I know it sounds bad, but I guess I will just have to continue practicing till I'm whackin' with the best ;)


**** <dirty mind kicks in> LMAO!! Oh... now THAT sounds really bad!!
<tries to shut dirty mind off... and fails> Oh well... I tried. LOL!
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

*dirty mind still going strong... *

[ChristinaM]

Originally posted by annieb_mice
**** <dirty mind kicks in> LMAO!! Oh... now THAT sounds really bad!!
<tries to shut dirty mind off... and fails> Oh well... I tried. LOL!
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

*dirty mind still going strong... *

o>
:w

;)
:D
:cool:

[Lisa]

I don't want it to get emotionaly easier... To me all life is sacred and even though I'm killing for my snakes food, I don't want to become desensitized to the process.

[likeal0stchild]

anywhere from a mouse to a jumbo rat i just grab by the tail and fastball tehm directly into the cement in the driveway................never takes more than one throw

[ChristinaM]

Ok, yah, I'm bumping this back up....but I have to post. Some may think badly of me but....here goes anyways.

I've been practicing.....and some tries are better ( quicker ) than others. I tried to break the neck, as I thought that would be best. But I can't do it. So I went with whacking. It has gotten easier to take on my part. But I'm still having probs figuring out the right strength to use. I'm leary of being too hard and having a bloody mess all over.

I fed one of my snakes a live rat.
I have to honestly say, the rat's sufferring was over way way quicker than when I attempt to euthanise them.

But, the rat scratched my snake....which I'm not fond of. :(

So I will continue to practice my whacking, and hopefully sooner rather than later, I will become better at it.

I just wanted to share, because I know its helped me to read others first attempts at euthanising the prey.

[asphyxia]

If you where a guy you would have way more pratice at it.

But hey keep it up...pratice makes perfect as the say
..
B

[ChristinaM]

;) I will :)

[dave68]

wow you guys and gals really like to type, honestly when you get a puppy is it hard to feed it it's food? maybe the squeemish should just stick to cats and dogs for pets

[ChristinaM]

sorry Dave, some of us are human and need to learn how to murder our snakes food. It's not just instinct.

[dave68]

Sorry if I offended you Christina, I am human by the way and I wouldn't consider myself a murderer. It's just that there are two alternatives, buy pre-killed or kill them yourself, but if that really bothers you then I think you should stick to pre-killed. I tried again last year to raise my own food and found it took more time to keep them clean and fed than it was worth. I now buy frozen in bulk. Again I apolagise but four pages wow!

[ChristinaM]

LOL, yah I know, 4 pages and over 500 views....but alot of decent info has been provided. Unfortunately rodents don't come with a how to euthanise me for dummies book ;) I've learned alot in this thread.

I think it would bother anyone the first time they euthanised the prey.....moreso if it were a bad experience....but as I have found, it does get easier, especially with people around to share their experiences.

Peace Dave, twas just the way you said it......no biggie :) Thanks for posting again to explain what you meant. Cheers.

for the record.....if I had to euthanise everything that goes into my dogs food, I'd have a hard time with that too. LOL.

and on that note, me thinks its time for another drink:)

[Dani33]

Good thread. I killed my first mice tonight. I had Brian aka Aphyxia show me recently (thanks again). I took them in my hand, with their backs pointing towards the floor and threw it against the cement floor in the basement. Sort of aiming with for the head. All six died instantly. No blood, nothing. Easier than I thought actually. I was actually surprised that it didn't take more force.

I have dreaded this ever since I started the colonies. I actually put it off for a few days. To prepare myself, I tried to think of them as food only(not cute little gaphers). I haven't a problem with feeding bugs, so I tried to look at them the same way. It actually helped. I have to admit though, I kept the cuter mice back.

[latazyo]

I, too, killed my first rat tonight

I held it's tail and hit it in the head with the back of a screwdriver

I didn't know that it had died instantly (I mistook the twitches for life) but I came to realise it had died since it was not making any noise

[ChristinaM]

That's what I think I need Dani......find someone to show me how to do it. Especially now with needing larger rats ( I found pinkie and peach fuzz rats easy to do ) but whacking my first fuzzy ( aka 40-50gr rat ) was a not nice experience. As it took me about 10mins to do. I'm ok with doing it, I just lack the skill to judge where to hit, how hard to hit, etc. I'm not out to torture the food.

Anyone in the London vacinity willing to show me how to whack a rat?

[Cruciform]

Sure Christina :) Maybe I can get it on video for ya.

Have you seen the video where Chuck (I think it was Chuck) was knocking the pieces out of the clay pots for hides? It's pretty much the same thing, except it's a rat in your hand, not a hammer :)

I've been trying the different methods...

Gassing - haven't gotten that perfect mix and it either drowns them and they suffer, or it takes too long and they suffer.

Cervical Dislocation - much easier with mice. I crippled the rat but didn't kill it outright. The snake finished it off.

Whacking - Mixed bag. I've had one appear dead, then wake up after lying in the cage for a minute. I still wouldn't walk away from a "dead" rat that had been freshly killed, just for that reason.

[Pixie]

I too whack my rats to kill them, anything older than a week gets the whack bag. 1 week and younger, they go straight to the freezer.

Killing prey has never been easy and although it's not as hard as it was in the beginning, I still hate doing it and don't feel too hot after I killed something.

I had been explained a couple years back the technique on cervical dislocation. I tried it on a couple of already dead mice to practice and eventually to a live one. It was a complete disaster and I couldn't even attempt it again. That's when I turned to whacking.

It's fast easy and the margin for error is much lower. My whack bag is like a small pillow case, 12"W x 18"H. What I do is put my hand at the bottom of the bag and grab the rats tail with that hand. With the other, I bring the bag (inside out) over the rat so he's at the bottom.

With the bag closed, I get ready and shake the rat down one last time before the big swing. This usually gets the rat at the bottom of the bag lengthwise so when it's whacked, it's across it's entire body.

The force of the swing is relative to the size of the rat. Fuzzies and hoppers take almost no force whereas small adults and bigger take a good swing. It's rarely messy for me, if anything there is a bit of blood coming out of the rat's nose. That was, until last night!

Had my first rat open up on me being whacked. There was a split of about 1" on it's belly and the liver and some intestines were hanging out. I was SO GROSSED OUT! Not a pleasant sight...

Now my cute albino boa looks like the snake of death as it's covered in blood from that meal! I can't wait to give him a bath but I can't disturb him now that he's just eaten! Argh!

Even with this happenstance, I will still continue to whack my rats. With all the rats that I've whacked (well in the hundreds) this is the first time one has split on me.

Pixie

[Lisa]

Last night I did in about 200 rats using dry ice (basicly killed anything in the colony that wasn't a breeder)... way easier then wacking them one by one... I don't think I could have handled that. With dry ice I just add a handful of cubes to a container of hot water and put it in the large rubbermaid that i have the rats in, close the lid and come back in 15 minutes. Now I need a bigger freezer so we have a place to keep PEOPLE food.

I picked up about 2 pounds of dry ice during my lunch break and had plenty for when i got home about 5 hours later. I even had enough dry ice to toss in the freezer to help with keeping the freezer cold (all those rats are pretty warm).

[Dani33]

Lisa, where did you buy dry ice and how much was it?

Thanks

[Lisa]

prax air - and it was free but normally they charge $1 a pound.