recent bust?

[Dom]

Hey

I heard some rumors about a house with 300 or so reptiles that was found recently .. like past week .. and it was in such bad shape and badly taken care of that they took away aniamls and kids..

HAs anybody heard about this or could anybody straighten out this rumor / anecdote?

I need to know as i think one of my animals was there...

tx
Dom

[magnum1]

It was in the paper apparently they ? are facing animal cruelty charges they had a caiman, wallaby (sp) and a coati amungst others in innisvil that is all I heard so far

[Drew S]

http://www.ospca.on.ca/libr_pr_2004_April21.html

Maybe?

[Dani33]

That's the one. We read an article after the first was published that the animals or some of them had to be returned. They don't have any laws in Innisfil, so they had no right to take them. The SPCA and law enforcement officers have no idea as to how to care for the animals, so they realy couldn't judge as to how the animals should have been kept.

I believe(trying to recall from my feeble memory). That the owners had to help recupe some of the socalled veterinary costs. They had a complaint, so the SPCA barged in and confiscated the animals. As far as we know, the animals could have been cared for properly, they just acted on the fact that they are reptiles and overreacted. The owners must have been doing something right, they are returning some of them. I'm not a big fan of the SPCA. It's funny how the SPCA didn't mention that in the article, hmmmmm.

[BoAddict]

i cant stand the spca's stance on exotic animals , they used to be a favourite organization of mine years ago , i used to even vollenteered there many many years ago, today i wouldnt give them the time of day

how can an organization that is supposed to be for the rights of animals have such a negative out look on reptiles?

well thats my rant of the day

Mike

[SDSnakes]

I dont know if i should really say anything, BUT, someone on
this forum is actually taking care of about 50 of the herps
from that house. And doing an EXCELLENT job. I dont believe
its a perminant home for them, just until things clear up.
I believe the animals are in WAY better hands now than they
were before.

Thats all im going to say, maybe they will post about it later.
No idea though.
But dont worry, the animals are in great hands for the time
being.

[Beejay]

Originally posted by SDSnakes
someone on
this forum is actually taking care of about 50 of the herps
from that house. And doing an EXCELLENT job.

I agree. I've interacted with the animals and seen a visible improvement in one of the most sick ones in even the first couple of days. The animals that did not have adequate enclosures are being setup appropriately and the animals in need of special care are being medicated and treated accordingly.

As for the people who previously cared for the animals, they are nice people who let things get out of control I suppose, taking in sick animals that they were unprepared for and doing the best that they could under the circumstances.

I don't know about the mammals or child but the reptiles, amphibians and arachnids, etc are being cared for very lovingly and completely.

~Bj

[Dani33]

Ah, well that makes sense. I have been curious as well. Newspaper articles only give so much information. It's good to find out if the SPCA was overeacting or not. I personally don't have a lot of animals. But it's good to hear that our animals won't be confiscated because someone complains, even if they are legal and being cared for. That's what worried me most.

[SDSnakes]

The people taking care of the animals right now have put lots
of hard work into the animals and their enclosers on VERY short
notice. Got a call one night LATE, went to pick up 50 animals came
home at about 2am i believe and set them up... I find it hard to do that for 1 or 2 animals let alone 50. You guys are doing a great job and i can't think of anyone that could do any better.

[Cruciform]

I think two of the biggest reasons the SPCA has had success lobbying to get reptiles banned in municipalities are:

1) ignorance and fear of the animals in question.

and

2) no shelters available to take them in.


I don't like the idea of the city council telling me I can't have my pets, (and I'm just going to ignore them of course) but I understand that without a shelter that can handle them it's an effective death sentence for any exotic that is found to be improperly cared for.

Any time someone is found with reptiles in poor condition it's another strike against us :(

[marisa]

The newspaper here noted dead animals, and what they called "deplorable" conditions. I am not a fan of the SPCA at all, but these people are the people who get US in trouble and I am glad the animals AND child (also noted in two of my papers) were removed.

Not everyone can have 100 reptiles folks! Its about qaulity NOT qauntity. It's a disturbing trend I have noticed lately....everyone trying to get collections of 50, 100, 200 reptiles. Everyone buying new stuff constantly then giggling about some addiction....frankly I'd say about 10% of those people can handle that same collection once all the species are adults. Its a sad sad fact.

Marisa

[Linds]

Originally posted by marisa

Not everyone can have 100 reptiles folks! Its about qaulity NOT qauntity.

I hear ya on that one! I'm at my personal limit for now. I may finish up pairing up the single kids, but no more new projects. I don't think I could care for a collection of 100 reptiles properly at all, unless I didn't have to do anything else with my days (how likely is that?).

[asphyxia]

Same with me Linds

Cheers
Brian

[Removed_2815]

Well this is another huge blow to the hobby. I believe I have met this person once (he/she is a user on this forum) and sold him/her a pair of Hognose snakes. This person seemed nice enough. If the animals were, in fact, kept in deplorable conditions then I am glad they are being relocated. If it is just another SPCA exaggeration then I hope everything works out for him/her.
Cheers,
R

[V.hb]

Reading this thread makes me think of all the bearded dragon breeders right now. Iam sorry guys, I in no means am trying to down any of you, and you do produce some nice animals! but where do they all go? I mean, my female can clutch many times a year, and I get at the minimum 25 eggs from her, and this is ME, i only have 2 beardies, they're pets, from one female i could easily achieve 150 eggs a year.. I really wonder where they go? I mean, you see lots of baby beardies in petstores, iam sure most of them die there. I 'am kinda steering myself towards believing alot of breeders are irresonsible with what they breed, and how many they do breed.. As I said, iam not trying to point fingers, Iam just curious, but have to say in the end iam never surprised to hear about how many unwanted/sick/dead reptiles are popping up in the local papers..

Iam not just saying beardies here, theres many others. Iam just using it as an example. The lack of respect for animal life, espeacially reptiles reflects more on this hobby every day.. Il also add, to avoid any war starting from this post that Iam not directing this to anyone on this site, most seem to really care about what they do keep, and show pride in that.

[snakers55]

I agree with V.hb.. Pretty well anyone can breed the more common reptiles out there(such as beardies, cornsnakes, veiled chameleons, leopard geckos, crested geckos,etc...) but why?? There are soooooooooooo many out there now that they are almost a waste of space.. I don't dislike these animals at all, but as V.hb said, where do all the babies go?? The hobby can only handle so many of these animals and the rest parish. The breeders are basically only doing it to make a buck.. Why not put your knowledge to better use and try breeding rarer animals?? Too many people are taking advantage of the money side and not caring enough that these are living animals who have specific requirements to survive... Let's face it, who is going to buy large quainities of baby bearded dragons from the many breedes out there?? Most WILL end up in petstores who couldn't really give a $#!+ about their lives or who they go to... It's either they sell (to any fool with $100) and we make money, or they die and oh well. Money is the heart and soul of evil in this world.. I've heard about petstores getting several threatened (in the wild) animals in and they all die, and all the store says is damn, we lost money on that one.. This is something that irritates me personally very much and V.hb's post has opened a gateway for me to voice my opinion.. I'm glad to see at least one more(and I'm sure most of the people on this forum/site agree) that still have a genuine love for the animals.. Personally, I would rather (and have done so in the past) give my animals away for free to good homes than to sell them to the first moron with a pocket full of cash...

[TheLionsShare]

Wow.. I have been waiting for someone to finally say something like that! Way to go!

[TheRedDragon]

I second that thought! :)

[V.hb]

Iam willing to put money on the fact that 90% + animals sold in petstores die or are returned in worse condition than the time of purchase within 2 years on average. I would break that down to, 10% find good homes and remain healthy, or gain their health back. 40% die in store, and the other 40% are impulse buys that are the flavor of the week until something a bit fancier comes around, and in the end are bumped down on the totem poll until they find themselves in a freezer from sheer neglect.

[beth wallbank]

AAAAMMMMMMENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

[beth wallbank]

in a non religious way of course............

[snakers55]

Well,good to see that this issue isn't only in my eyes... Where will this hobby go in a few years?? Know what I mean? I think it's brutal right now..

[Terri]

Hi, I'm kinda new to this forum,but this has me a little upset.Has anyone here met the people in question? If she looks familiar,maybe it is because she had a booth at the last show,or you saw her display at the Barrie Mall,maybe at a school,or front page of the paper with her coatamundi or on the local cable show "Daytime"(all since March break) I guess the paper did not mention they had a travelling educational show,teaching people about these exotic animals.Yes, I know she had some that were in rough shape,these were the sick and unwanted that were dropped off at the pet store where she worked, or left on their door step. Like any animal lover,you try to save them all, but it dosen't always work that way. Why was the SPCA and police called, maybe a disgruntled landlord?hmmm, or just maybe, is there new compition in town,someone with many animals,almost a small zoo who also does educational parties, hmmm I wonder. All I know is that they love their animals and would not purposly hurt any of them.I spent the weekend with them when they bought the wallaby,hedgehog,monitor and the one pigeon for their son.(only 2 weeks ago)They have always been there to help me with questions and willing to lend there support so don't jump to conclusions, take a good look around your own home, be honest,what would the SPCA claim if they barged into your domain with no warning. Terri

[marisa]

SPCA or any forum member here could walk into my herp room at ANY time and NOT see dead animals, deplorable conditions, especially not in such a way my child needs to be removed from my home. What you are saying she didn't clean up after stuff for 1 day and now its a conspiracy to take her kid away? Yeah uh huh.

Let me tell you what happened here IMHO. A person wanted to help out animals and for a long time has probably done their best with them. But like in many MANY other cases, this person did not know when to say no. This person possibly had other life issues and didn't know when to admit the animals were too much. Then things escalate to the situation officers found and neighbors complained about.

It's only the people who truely care that know when to say enough is enough and realize their family and they need the personal time before they can take on any more pets. It's simple to say no, and it would have been simple to avoid this situation.

Marisa

[Sunrunner]

Originally posted by marisa
SPCA or any forum member here could walk into my herp room at ANY time and NOT see dead animals, deplorable conditions, especially not in such a way my child needs to be removed from my home. What you are saying she didn't clean up after stuff for 1 day and now its a conspiracy to take her kid away? Yeah uh huh.

Marisa

I did not read anywhere in this article that she lost her child please keep the facts straight. This article is so vague I find it amusing that everyone believes this article right off the bat but when they find a corn snake in someones apartment and call it a cobra everyone laughes and calles the SPCA a bunch of idiots,
I have done rescue for the spca before because they usually kill the reptiles before they atempt to rehabilitate it so as for the herps being in their hands is in no way better. Dead is dead.

If I am wrong in this I apologize but I have personally driven around to 10 different ones and inquired about what happens to herps that have been recovered or dropped off and gotten the same responce "we did not have the facilities to care for them so we had to put them down."

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Sunrunner
I did not read anywhere in this article that she lost her child please keep the facts straight.

Originally posted by marisa
I am glad the animals AND child (also noted in two of my papers) were removed.

[marisa]

Actually it was mentioned in almost every single news source that a child had been removed. I have it right here in my paper.

Even IF the child was not removed and the news sources are all wrong, the artciles mention the following pets:

Snakes (boas, pythons, King snakes)
Iguanas
Chameleons
Monitor Lizards
Cayman
Scorpions
Tarantulas
Hedgehogs
Ferrets
Prairie dogs
Wallaby
Turtles
Coatamundi
Hyrax
Pigeons
Cockatiels
Mynah Birds


You really think ANYONE who is not lisenced in some way should have this many animals and of this type? Wallabys, Cotamundi, Caimens and moniters? I am sorry some of you may personally know this person, but they did something wrong. Another qoute which is the same in all my news sources:

"One of the largest removals of its type undertaken by the Ontario SPCA"

Another
"removed approximately 200 animals "

"discovered animals in cages throughout the two-story farmhouse in extremely unsanitary and poor living conditions."

I am sorry. Anyone who thinks these calaber of animals can be housed properly in a two story farmhouse has problems. Lets even assume its a giant house...then why the disgusting conditions?

They simply got in over their head and didn't know when to say no. Which is why after almost five years of reptile ownership, I still own less than 20 reptiles. Its called self control, knowing your limits and being honest with yourself.

Not only has this person suffered the loss of her "pets" but she has succesfully put HORRIBLE attention on those of us who AREN'T animal hoarding and who actually follow the "rules" I mentioned above about knowing personal limits. Thanks for the bad press lady!

Marisa

[nicola_boulton]

i totallt agree with V.hb, its so hard to find good homes for are herps now,espically if were breeding common's. At the end of the day what are you gunna do when you've got loads of leo or corn babies on your hands,espically if there not morps. Theres no way of bein able to aford keeping them,to make sure they stay in a good home. Mabey we should started getting our herps nutured?

[V.hb]

Sunrunner, the SPCA deals with IDIOTS daily. Why wouldn't they be a bit tired of dealing with idiots, that call THEM idiots?:) sounded like a riddle....(no iam not calling you an idiot, just herpers in general that dont understand the spca's position)

I use to work in a few petstores, where I spoke to the SPCA on a very frequent basis, as many complaints came in, (usually for the sale of arachnids.) They were always pretty decent with me, and knew I cared for the animals in the store with everything I had available to me. They are just fed up. And I'am too, to be honest.

It all comes back to the breeders responsibility, and of course the pet store owners, and the importers etc. To much is about money, like said previously money is evil. Animals are tossed around to make a few bucks. I can name off many people on this very site that buy and sell to profit, regardless of where the animal goes. Then, the animals stress builds up, health falls and it ends up with good people that want to help it and they get nailed. May not be fair, but its still a long line of responsibility that has been broken in one way or another..

[Sunrunner]

Just to set the record straight I do not know these people personnally and the article that I read did not mention the child I agree that this was horrible but either way it is sad because in MY experience the SPCA usually puts these animals down if I didnt make that come across well enough i am sorry I am speaking out of my own knowledge of thewm not anyones elses.

[justinO]

The major threat here is that this will give them weight for more laws against reptiles.

It seems that we sit back and do nothing, or resort to hiding what herps we do have, instead of fighting and educating the people who would like to see all of our pets put down!

There's alot of people on ssnakess..... there must be something we can do other than being upset on a forum board????

My Mother used to be the head secratary of the OSPCA, she'll be on the phone with them as of 10 minutes from now when I tell her what happened....... hopefully i'll have a way in that way.

Any other suggestions on what we can do? If I get any phone numbers, etc, i will post them here to contact.

Jessy

[V.hb]

If I know the people in question, only due to the wallaby reference..... Iam sure they're good people, but they seem pretty overloaded with animals, and from what I saw some were lacking. Wether they mean to do it or not, the animals deserve to be kept 110%.. So unfortunatly, I'am on the SPCA's side here.

[V.hb]

JustinO,

What you say is true, those who do take care of their reptiles shouldn't have to hide them. Most people, and i mean MOST dont take care of their animals, and leave them in deplorable conditions. Its a very select few that take the time to make sure they can properly care for their animals before purchasing them.

Its a big damn game of show and tell with most,"Look at my snake, isnt it coooooool?" What an idiotic excuse to get any pet, espeacially a snake. To show off.

Iam very into monitor lizards. Iam no expert with them, but I do my best to care for them. I keep Blackthroats as alot of people know, and they're kept in 10 and 12 foot pens! I have thousands of pounds of dirt that I've brought in so my 6 footers can still burrow and do whats natural. My point is, anything short of what they are use to, is unacceptable... If you cant keep a big cage, supply a good and healthy food source etc, dont get it. Ive even gotten rid of animals due to the fact that I've felt they werent being cared for entirely. I love turtles, and caimens but they dont fit into my schedule, nor my daily cleaning routine, so I GAVE them away to a friend that is more oriented with that kinda of maintenance....So, iam not trying to sound all mighty, as its happend to me as well, where I wasnt caring properly for something.. But I knew when to pack it in and put the animals first........

[Wizwise2000]

I agree with Marisa.

JustinO: I would like to know of something we all could do to make a difference aswell.

Cheers
Shane

[nita]

Thankfully our SPCA has a place to send their reptiles, they come to ERAS and our wonderful reptile rescue run by Neil and Michelle(members here). I believe that with their own and the rescues that they have they are around the 110 animal mark and they also have to occasionally put people on a waiting list to find homes for their now unwanted reptiles. I must say I'm also thankfull that every 12 yr old cant' walk out and buy a burm or retic here, we are always overrun with Iguana's and turtles. There are a lot of uneducated people buying reptiles and a big problem is that pet stores give out WRONG information and breeders don't nescesarily make sure that the buyer knows what is going to be required to care for the animal. The fact that most reptiles regardless of adult size start off pretty small doesnt' help either, people buy this cute little reptile only to find out they get 6ft + in size as adults. Education is the key. The shows and sales help, but how much of them is about education and how much is sell, sell, sell.

[snakeylesnake]

some very interesting points. i have mentioned this subject before about animal welfare groups going out of control.
In the UK reptile shows are pretty much a thing of the past due to the RSPCA nad a group called animal aid. Animals aids main objective is to stop All animals being kept as pets, even cats and dogs. However, to get public support they pick on a minority and hugely misunderstood greop of pets to start with; reptiles. Because of their biased and incorrect views and claims, the RSPCA forced all local councils to ban reptile shows. The main "evidence" was that all reptiles cause salmonella to be passed onto humans, this story started from a child that sadly died from salmonella after it had ingested the feces of a burmese python that was let loose in the house. surely thats more a case for child welfare, not animal rights. as tragic as that story is, what sort of parents would let a large mamal eating reptile loose in the same house as their own child? would they let a child roam free among dog feces as well?
AS for the amount of reptiles that die in store etc, it is a terrible thing, but if their is a market for reptiles and people can make money then it will always continue. But, in my opinion i would much rather have hobbyists breed reptiles than for them to be needlessly removed or farmed from the wild just to supply the pet trade. Unfortunatly, alot of newcomers to reptiles will be at a pet superstore, these superstores dont care if a 100 reptiles (or cats or dogs etc) die if they make profits. There are good reptile shops about, Reptilia breeds the majority of animals that it sells and will stand by them 100%.
Right now i have a small collection that i do intend to breed, this year i was hoping to breed my GTP, in a strange way i was almost relieved that i didnt. Just from 2 breeders that i know, over 100 baby chondros will be available, some will be sold overseas, but most will be sold in canada. NOw, if people are wanting to buy a chondro they will most likely end up at a respected breeder, and for me being my first breeding of chondros, id probably be down the list a fair bit!. So i may not sell one baby, but what to do? to be honest if i ended up keeping each and everyone of them i wouldnt bat an eye, but thats just me.

cheers
Paul