Optimal Enviernement

[Steeve B]

OPTIMAL ENVIERNEMENT

What is optimal for reptiles? Many keepers say theirs no such thing as optimum temps and humidity, well I say yes there is an optimum temperature gradient and also a humidity gradient, I know this because Iv learned it from years of keeping reptiles, they have shown me what they need, not the books not the breeders.

Reptiles in nature have different behaviours at different stages of there life’s, these behaviours are dictated by predation, temperatures, humidity.

Every reptile start life the same way, A safe and steady environment that will allow them to develop, then birth (viviparous) or hatch (ovoviviparous)! now they will seek an environment quit similar to there pre-born stage, as these temps and humidity allows them to preserve energy and moisture, as the days go by they have more endurance and can venture farther and longer outside these life sustaining temps and humidity, going out to feed and bask, then proceed to other life events like breeding, but they always come back to the very fundamentals to lay there new descendants.

So what is OPTIMAL?

Would you say a Saharan uromastyx basking in 140f in the desert, needs a 140f dry habitat?
This same Saharan uromastyx was incubated at 88-90f with 75%-92% humidity and spent his first years not far from his nest chamber for safety only coming out to feed and bask.

This is the story herpetoculture is telling us, every species we have bred where incubated in a relatively similar way with temperatures ranging 84-92f and humidity’s 60-98% yet we keep on giving them cages that simply don’t fit there basic needs.

Just my 2 cents

Rgds

[Siretsap]

Well I am not sure I got what you meant so correct me if I am wrong.

But a uromastix if you give it that high of a humidity level at all times, then wouln't you not be doing him any good. An adult Uromastix doesn't have humidity nor water. They get what they need from the food. If you give it too much humidity, it would developp problems on it's skin?

I noticed almost all my reptiles are energetic at an average temp of 29 celcius (leopard geckos, fat tail geckos, cornsnakes and ball pythons) all active and eating normally. I did notice that our uromastix are not active at those temps bu more in the ranges of 115 farenheit. So yes some reptiles will be active in the similar temps of their incubation but I am not sure for the humidity.

[Steeve B]

This is exactly why I posted, uromastyx will dig deep borrows, as deep as they need to get moisture, if they find what they need at 10inches then that’s where there borrows will end, if not they keep digging, also most uromastyx ornate, benti, ocelata, Saharan’s live in rock outcrops, moisture is always trapped in crevices, other species much more tolerant of dryness Mali, Moroccan, egypticus will dig very deep to achieve this moisture, there body’s are designed to better endure dryness, they have much bigger tails (water storage- fat reserves) then the latter species, therefore can tolerate our husbandry mistake better, not the case with the above uromastyx with dehydrate faster and often fail to acclimate to our harsh husbandry. This is why aim posting too many Niger, Saharan, Geri all the same! Are failing to acclimate because we don’t cover there needs. Uromastyx need a humidity gradient, be it a hid box, nest box or like me full dirt enclosure, the problem is wetness, keeping them wet will cause tail rot, blister disease and respiratory illness.
The key is to know how to judge between dampness and moisture!
We provide them with a temperatures gradient, but we don’t consider humidity.
My cage humidity is quit high if you compare with uromastyx standards 75-80% ambient, however it’s only 30% or less under the basking area, this allowing them to completely dry out when they chose to.
No uromastyx habitat is completely dry, and no uromastyx live in real desert habitat, all species evolved in areas where rivers floods and swamps used to be, these habitats have high clay content and still hold moisture to support life.

Also the notion of not giving standing water to uromastyx was only so they don’t wet there cages or substrate witch is often bird seed. All my uromastyx drink water, however I don’t keep the water bowl in the cage as they continually pass in it and slash water all over, therefore I leave it a day a week.

Rgds

[tHeGiNo]

That was a very interesting read Steeve. So are you suggesting that for young lizards, their environment should match that of incubation?

[Steeve B]

Yes aim suggesting that these pre-birth parameters shod be available to them throughout life, at least as a retreat (hid box), reptiles are amazingly tough and adaptable, many will live decades in a sweater box on news paper, this is very far from being optimum.
This post is mostly about uromastyx as it seems to me that common knowledge wants them to be kept in very dry conditions, way more then they who’d in nature!

They are imported by the100s and most will die (except for Mali’s) witch are said to be bullet proof, however because they are tough and can endure our pour husbandry doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make things better for them.

I think by providing these pre-birth fundamentals to all reptiles will allow many to acclimate and maybe save them from a slow death?

Rgds

[tHeGiNo]

Thats very interesting. I am just curious, where did you come up with this from. Do you have some evidence to back all of this up? Not that I don't believe you, so please don't take this as offensive, I am just curious. Because if this IS infact true, then a lot of us are making some grave mistakes.

[Steeve B]

How can you think this? Coming here and saying this without having don the research who’d make me a total idiot, you don’t give me much credit do you?

[tHeGiNo]

I knew my post would be misunderstood. Thing is, when someone tells me something, no matter who it is, I take it with a grain of salt. That is a pretty deep assumption, or fact, that you are stating here. So I was just curious as to the research which led up to this conclusion. We are a community in which we are all here for the same reason - for the love of reptilians alike. I hope you understand what I mean here. I am not saying you didn't do the research, I am asking for you to share the research, so that I can better understand the concept.

I think what you are saying may make sense, which is why I am asking you to elaborate. Sorry for any confusion.

[Steeve B]

It not easy to accurately give you references, as there is so many things to consider that broth me to this conclusion, apart from information given to me by peoples in Iran, Somali and Tunesie these peoples have collected just about all known species of uromastyx from the above country’s but also in Ethiopie, Yemen, Sudan, Morocco, Niger, Mali and because of my partnership with one of them I have access to unpublished information, from there on I investigate and research via other medias mostly on the net, Encarta, museums, libraries and then combine all this information with my personal experience, I then apply this to my captives and ultimately they by there behaviours tell me if aim right, no dough time will provide more data and maybe few months from now Il post about problems I may have encounter, but the importance is to share otherwise how who’d you know without walking in my shoes.

Hers one more statement for witch I can’t pin point why or what exactly broth me to this conclusion, but still I see no reason not to share this information.
Uromastyx venture out when temperatures are high not because they like it hot, but only because it’s to hot for predators snakes, birds. What we think is a preference is actually a survival skill.

Rgds

[tHeGiNo]

Thats interesting, thank you for sharing that information. I still don't understand exactly what characteristic indicates that these environments matching incubation temperatures are optimal. Do they choose these spots for you, rather then such conditions generally accepted in the hobby? Or are they healthier in some way, and if so how was this determined? Thank you for sharing the information. Now, do you think this is true for all reptiles, or just uromastyx?

[Steeve B]

What are the conditions generally accepted in the hobby?

I think incubation parameters shod be considered as a base to reptiles husbandry, this who’d already be an improvement over most husbandry practice.

Not long ago I started keeping a group of 10 Saharan uromastyx, and as predicted by a top uromastyx breeder, I was on the way to lose a few, this man’s estimation of non acclimating wc Saharans is 25-30%, I think this number is realistic for experimented keepers, however out of 5 shipments (about 600+ heads) that entered Canada in 2004-2003 id be surprised if 5% survive till next year. Back to my group one showed sins of parasites lost weigh and 4 others stopped feeding, correcting my husbandry allowed them to thrive, even the one I was sure to lose made a complete recovery. I understand this is not much to advance such a statement, however in my case it’s supported by 25 years of herping with 100s and many species of reptiles, enough to make me confident that this route shod be farther investigated.

Rgds

[ReptiliansDOTca]

Very interesting, however you have arose a question: if this is true for the husbandry of all reptiles, why is it that uromastyx species are given a basking temperatures of 120°F and up, when their eggs are incubated at temperatures much less?

Steeve, do you have an e-mail where I can contact you?

[ReptiliansDOTca]

Also, is there a particular reason why uromastyx take such a long period of time to shed fully?

[Steeve B]

I provide my animals with temps that will allow them to thrive, in nature as in captivity all reptiles have parasites, and I keep saying this sterile organism is a dead organism! the only way they can regulate there parasites load is by basking, internal parasites die when temps exceed 40c-50c, this is why I like to use 120f for my forest species and 140f for arid species, my basking are on 24-7 and my uromastyx use them when ever they need too, other then to serve this purpose my animals who’d not need any basking at all, my gradient 80-95f fulfils all there fundamentals needs.
Also a constant 120f will kill any reptile on earth, some will survive 1h while the toughest may last a few days’ maybe weeks, but none who’d acclimate to this high temp as non who’d acclimate to 70f even though some may Telerate close to freezing a sustained 70f will kill them all. I call these extreme temps! Temps that most wild reptiles are subjected too, however I see no reasons to flirt with the lower extremes as they serve no purpose in captivity.

As for shedding! I wish I knew more about uromastyx shedding cycle, unfortunately I don’t, however sins I changed my set up to an ambient 70-85% humidity they seem to completely shed in about 2 days, its clear that this is much faster then when kept dry, and this will surly play an important role in growth rate.
Rgds
:)http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/959Photo_139-med.jpg

[ReptiliansDOTca]

Again, thank you for sharing this information, it is great to have people such as yourself who are always willing to share their experience with the hobby. I have sent you an e-mail, hopefully we can keep in touch.