Coconut Husk for Substrate

[GP212]

Hi
I was planning all along on using play sand as my substrate. After reading up I have decided to go with the Coconut Husk stuff.
Anyone using this? Any concerns?

I also had a thought of using sand at one end and the husk at the other. I thought if I kept the food dishes at the husk end and the crickets I figure would also stay at this end trying to find cover.
Thoughts.

Glenn

[Pia]

I started out using sand with mine but switched about 8 months ago to coconut husk. My main reason for switching was the worry of impaction (there are some very informative posts if you ever feel like doing a search). I also believe that since bearded dragons originally came from an arid but not true desert environment, the coconut fibre which looks and feels much like soil would be a fairly natural substrate for them. Making it can be a little messy. You soak the bricks of fiber in water then wring out as much moisture as you can, then I let it dry for a couple of days. It's still a little damp when I put it in the cages, but it dries out quickly and doesn't harm the dragons at all. It's easy to scoop the poop out of and my dragons seem to like it fine.

Regarding feeding small dragons, if you find they are having trouble finding the food in a large enclosure, you can always feed them in a smaller container such as a rubbermaid (or the like) tub or smaller tank if you have one, then return them to the main enclosure. Hope this helped :-)

[GP212]

Thanks Pia.
I have read all of the arguments on sand. This is why I think that I will go with the husk. But what about sand just at the "no food" end. Just for looks.
And what name brand of husk are you using? Have you tried others?
Lastly, I have a 100 gallon tank. Any idea how much of this stuff I will need? How deep?

Thanks again
Glenn

ps; I love your little quote at the botton of you message!!!Too true!!

[tHeGiNo]

I hate the coconut husk, for dry cages that is. Being a desert terrarium, the temperatures are obviously hot and dry. When this stuff gets dry like that, it tends to get really dusty. This dust can be impacted in the nostrils, and the like. If your going to use the stuff, use the ZooMed three pack one - it will be your best value.

There is nothing wrong with using sand in enclosures, so long as certain accomedations are met. For instance, I would never recommend using sand on a dragon less then six months of age. Anything older - with proper husbandry and set-up that is (ie. proper temperatures) - should not encounter any problems.

I also believe that since bearded dragons originally came from an arid but not true desert environment, the coconut fibre which looks and feels much like soil would be a fairly natural substrate for them.

If anything, sand is closer to their native environment. They live on hard rock and dirt based substrates. If you have a small dragon, do not house it on any substrate. In fact, I would recommend raising it in a small rubbermaid, until it obtains a somewhat larger size. On newspaper, paper towl, or my new personal preference - shelf liner. I hope that helped, and if you have any questions please feel free to ask.

[Leviathan]

I find it very interesting that people think sand is bad but Coco husk is ok. I worked alongside a vet for almost 2 years. I saw one anole come in with sand impaction (yes this smartie pants kept his anole on sand in a half gallon kritter keeper) but I've seen 4 bearded dragon babies and 3 or so leopard geckos die of coco fiber compaction. Sp for me I would use niether but if I had to use one it would be sand. I reccommend the organic paper towel that save-on carries or just news paper. Or alot of people use bird seed for beardies too.

Alecia

[tHeGiNo]

What most people fail to recognize is, that a healthy lizard is immensly less prone to impaction then one kept under improper care. Temperatures are important.

[GP212]

Wow. I thought that I had finally figured out what I was going to use. Now I am back a square one. I know that I read a post somewhere on this site that stated that that person and some vets had tested sand verses coconut husk substrate and they found that the husk was fine. No compaction.
I don't know.
Can I just get opinions on what TOO use and why.
I really need more help on this!


Thanks
Glenn

[tHeGiNo]

I will tell you this: I know several successful breeders who breed and keep adults on sand. Keep him on carpet liner, paper towel, newspaper or something of the sort until 6 months of age. If you have the proper temperatures, and he is cared for properly, you will not encounter ANY problems.

I vouche for sand. It is someone similar to their natural habitat, and poses minimal problems. They do not live on fluffy dust in wild... coconut husk is FANTASTIC for humid-seeking reptiles where it is kept moist and wet, in fact it is exactly what I use for all my high-humidity animals. For dry, it just doesn't work.

[Dani33]

I personally keep my baby on shelf liner. When he is larger, I am going to use sand.

[GP212]

When yous guys say newspaper do you mean flat or torn up in strips or what?

[K1LOS]

somebody once recommended wetting the sand and pressing it down in the bottom of the cage, and then drying it out. That would be similar to their natural habitat i think. Dust wouldn' t be a problem, and it would be hard, so they wouldn't be getting any with their crickets.

i use sand, and i love how easy spot cleaning is. I got this little "pooper-scooper" thing from superpet that is meant for hamsters. It looks like what people would use for their kitty litter but smaller. It makes spot cleaning a breeze. You wouldn't be able to use that with hardened sand or coco-fibre.

I'll tell you what, i have a friend in australia right now. I will have her keep track of what the substrate is wherever she sees / catches a beardie. I'll let you all know when i get some results.

Geoff

[Big Mike]

I use the expanded coconut, and I spot clean with a kitty litter scoop. It works great.

It does get dry but it all it takes is a very light mist to keep the dust down. I like the ability that is has to get wet and dry out very easily. Every once in a while, I give it a good wet down to increase the humidity for shedding.

I don't use sand because I believe that it could cause chronic impaction. Lots of people use it with no apparent problems so the choice is up to you.

[Pia]

GP212, are you sorry you asked? lol. Lighting and substrates have to be the most confusing issues in reptile keeping. I made my decision to use coconut husk based on the possibility of chronic impaction. This is a cumulative effect of ingestion of small amounts of sand over long periods of time. Apparently, small particles of the sand can begin to stick to the inside of the digestive tract which over time (years)inhibits the absorbtion of nutrients from the food. I got this information from a member of this sight who has done many necropsies on deceased beardies. I also asked a vet for his opinion and was told that it was a legitimate point,but since coconut fibre hasn't been a used much until lately in the drier set ups he couldn't say for sure (I think that's called a non-answer :-) Anyway, that is what I based my decision on. I don't think the debate will be settled any time soon, about all you can do is find out as much as you can, which I know you have, and make an informed decision. As mentioned above, the only sure fire way to avoid impaction is to use a substrate such as newspaper (just laid flat, not shredded), paper towel or reptile carpet (watch out for frayed edges). If you do go with the coconut fibre, there are several brands available such as Bed a Beast, Eco Earth (which is what I use) and others I can't think of the names of but they all seem to be the same thing in different packages. I buy the 3 packs because they are more economical and use 2 at a time for a 5 ft by 2 ft enclosure.

[GP212]

Hey thanks so much for your input yous guys. And yes Pia I am almost sorry that I asked. Still not sure but I'll descide when the time is right. Kinda sounded spiritual almost eh.
Anyways, can't wait to hear what your Aussie friend has to say KILOS.
Hey, I just mentioned to the wife that I was going to put real skulls and stuff in the aquarium (just FYI my wife does not like this stuff and is letting us keep the tank in the living room because she thought it would "look good")
How did she react? Well she went to bed.
It's me and the three kids against her so we'll see.
I know that this is probably not allowable language for this site but she HATES SNAKES as well.
I know I know. We are workin on her though.

Thanks again
Glenn

[drewlowe]

I do want to respond to this thread but it will take me awhile because i'm at work and it's supposed to be a busy day. If i don't post back today it will deffinatly tomorrow.

Jamie

[GP212]

Hey, I am at work too. This is the only time that I DO have time.

[drewlowe]

These are all of my personal opinions of different substrates you can use for beardies. Before reading this I will say I am one of those members that are anti-sand, I HAVE seen the negative aspects of this substrate and will never use it again.

Sand and Calci Sand-
Pros:
It's "natural", but "is it" They say it's natural, but the only way to achieve that is make it compact, which a lot of people DO NOT do.
Easy to clean- The poo is easy to clean out, but smaller pieces of food is not be prepared for hand picking out smaller particles of food.

Cons:
Impactation- This can occur when to much substrate is swallowed at one time or over a few days. It causes an intestinal blockage and can not pass the substrate through, some times a simple soaking will help make it easier, possible surgery or death can occur.

Chronic Impactation- This one takes A LOT longer, it's what happens when your beardie "tongue flicks" he/she picks up small grains of sand (or other) and when swallowed some will pass and some will get stuck to the stomach and intestinal lining, this allows the sand to block needed nutrients from being absorbed through the body. Can cause death over years. Will explain more on this if you would like.

Calci sand- same as sand but they say it's supposed to be digestible, but it isn't.

IMO, I used sand as a substrate for quite a while (years) for my beardies and other herps. I truly believe the chronic impactation thing is 100% true!!! I have had a cellular stomach wash (the vet will place a tube down their throat into their stomach and pump saline solution in and out 7-10 times then what they pull out the last time they keep and send off to a lab for testing) I had this procedure done to my male beardie, guess what was in there SAND and they hadn't been housed on it for months.

Bed a beast (eco earth, forest floor, or what ever name they go by several, but they are all basically the same thing).

Pros:
Looks nice
Easy to clean
Cons
VERY slight risk of impactation, by slight I mean slight, ANY thing can cause impaction, even a prey item that is too big may cause it. If they swallow a big enough amount then the possibility is there, but the expandable coconut fiber CAN be broken down in beardies (cannot be broken down in iguanas)
When dry it does get stuck in their nostrils, I have tried and seen the effects of bed a beast (or similar products) that is one reason that caused me to switch to my current substrate choice.

IMO this substrate is a pretty decent choice it does have a few problems that can be overcome.

Now to my personal favorite (for a more natural enclosure)

Wheat bran- You can purchase it at a feed store, I got mine 50LBS. for 8.00USD. There is enough in there to last me 3 completely full cage cleanings and some extra if the substrate runs low and I need to add just a little more (from spot cleaning).

Pros-
Completely 100% digestible, can't complain about fiber. Lol
Controls odor like a champ
Easy to clean (have to hand pick smaller pieces but is easier to get out of this substrate that sand).
Beardies can dig little wallows and "play" in the substrate
Looks good
Cons-
Water can cause it to mold pretty quickly, if you leave a water dish in there and water spills all over it can get pretty nasty, but if your aware of it you can section off a small part of the cage for water and food dishes (Bichiraddict has photos in her gallery of how she sectioned of an area for this).
It's little dusty but not to much.
You should bake it before using it, the reason you should bake it is there are possibilities of "stow aways" (little bugs) if you freeze it you may not kill all the possible bugs (example weevil) they may lie dormant until the substrate is used and heated up by the heat lamps). So for this I bake mine. I put the wheat bran in cake pans and heat for 15-20 mins at 325 F. For enough substrate for a 75 gallon tank it took about 1 -1 1/2 hours to do (if you have multiple pans). Yes it's a little time consuming, but I don't mind and if you bake the whole bag and store it in an air tight container you won't have to worry about baking anymore for awhile or bugs getting back into it. I also breed mealies for my leos so I have multiple uses for wheat bran.

IMO, I absolutely love this substrate so far (I've been using it for a few months now.) I don't have to worry about impactation, because it's 100% digestible. My beardies seem to enjoy it, they have their little "play time" in the stuff.

Newspaper/ paper towel- I don't think I need to say anything about this substrate choice, IT'S perfect!!! Maybe not aesthetically

Reptile Carpet- If this is used make sure your dragon can not catch hes/her nails in the material, they could possible rip out a nail which can be very painful. You should have at least 2 pieces to rotate through when cleaning cage. You should also make sure they thourouly dry if not they can mold. Another downside is you have to completely take and move everything to get the carpet in and out.

There are other substrates you can use like yesterdays new and bird seed, I personally have not used them my self so I won't make any comments on them.



A few things I want to say about sand that I didn't up there (this isn't aimed at anyone impeticular just my opinions). There is a risk associated with sand wether you want to believe it or not. You can say well then never leave your house cause something "can" happen to you if you leave. I say you cannot compare the 2, It is OUR job (responsibility) to give the best care possible to any animal in our possession, if that means not using sand for substrate because of possible impactation (in either form) and if it only claims the life of 1 out 100, why not??? I personally don't want my beardies (or any other animal I have) to die of something I could have easily prevented!!! Beardies should live 15-20 years +++ if housed correctly, they should out live their wild cousins because we try to take out all of the RISKS they take in the wild.

I do take other risks that you never know how the outcome is going to be. For example I do take my beardies outside on a leash in the summer and I let them run all around. Now there is a chance that they eat an outside bug (possible parasites or pesticides, or for that matter the dreaded killer the Lighting bug). That is a risk I'm willing to chance because they are getting a chance to run around in natural sunlight I've weighed the pro's and cons of it and feel I should take them outside for some natural UVB under proper supervision (I do take certain precautions and I have a great vet if something were to happen). Now if you want to compare that risk to leaving my house go right ahead that's more of an equal comparison.

The comment I know several breeders that house on sand, The questions to them are, How long have you been breeding beardies??? After the breeding years are over do they keep the animal or sell it off??? Have they had a beardie 10+ years old die (that was housed on sand) and did they have a necropsy done to determine cause of death??? One thing is people that have had beardies 10+ years don’t' normally get necropsies done they just figure they died from old age. When there is that possibility that it was chronic impaction, New studies are always done this is one thing I learned from them.

Ok I think that's enough of my Anti-sand post. LOL Continue doing your research I'm sure you will be able to decide eventually. If your still uncertain go with paper towels or newspaper until you feel certain you pick the right substrate for your BEARDIE not you.

Jamie

P.S. Sorry for the long read!!!

[GP212]

Wow!!!. Thanks!!
Thats great! I really appreciate you taking that time to say all of that. I find it amazing actually.
You will never see a note that long from me. Only because it would take me about a week to type it!!
I searched for Bichiraddict and say there was no match. Then I seached just addict as a partial search and found some threads of hers but when I tried to go dirrectly to her by clickin on her name is says that she is not registered.
You do have me thinking about using bran and wanted to see those pics of hers. The only thing that has me wondering is my wife has asthma and I wonder about the dust.

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!
Glenn

[Leviathan]

Like Drewlowe said, almost anything can kill your beardie... just like we can be killed by pretty much anything. You want to give your beardie the best set-up as possible for him, not for you (sorry) If he doesn't care what he is on and seems happy on paper towel or bran, even if it was only like 1% better. That should be worth it. Just what i think. Why my leopards are on ugly brown papertowel lol.

Alecia

[drewlowe]

Your welcome, that's one reason we are all here, to share information. The typing part wasn't the hard part, putting all the info was, so i didn't get it all jumbled up and incoherent babble, LOL trying to do that and work.

She had her name changed here is her new user name, ChristinaM .

Can't help on the asthma and bran though, luckly (knock on wood) i don't have allergies and neither does my boyfriend.

Jamie

[tHeGiNo]

Sand and Calci Sand-
It's "natural", but "is it" They say it's natural, but the only way to achieve that is make it compact, which a lot of people DO NOT do.
Easy to clean- The poo is easy to clean out, but smaller pieces of food is not be prepared for hand picking out smaller particles of food.


Just thought I would add, in regards to Calcium sand and ALL similar products, it is a product similar to Tums. It is is Calcium Carbonate based, and although it IS digestable, it neutralizes the acid in the stomache. This is harmful when digested in large amounts, not only because it neutralizes the acid - preventing digestion - when the acid in the stomache is depleted, or reduced, a signal is produced telling the body to create more acid. Therefore causing further issues. I would definitely not use calcium sand.

Impactation- This can occur when to much substrate is swallowed at one time or over a few days. It causes an intestinal blockage and can not pass the substrate through, some times a simple soaking will help make it easier, possible surgery or death can occur.

I must admit, at one point I too was convinced with this fallacy. And a big part of this was due to Eyespy and her several thousand apparant impaction victims, until she was proved a fake. Anyhow, I now refuse to believe that sand is as deadly as it is acclaimed to be. Once someone proves to me with solid cases of impaction deaths, I do not believe it. If kept under the proper conditions and temperatures, I do not believe it poses a problem.

Newspaper/ paper towel- I don't think I need to say anything about this substrate choice, IT'S perfect!!! Maybe not aesthetically

I wouldn't really call this perfect, for bearded dragons that is. I find they do a lot better, psychologically wise, on a substrate such as sand. They just do not seem the same in their activity and behaviour on this, from my perspective.

Under cons for bran, you forgot to mention the fact that peices of this can be really sharp, and are potentially dangerous when ingested. The stuff molds way to easily, so I do not favour it.

Again, I believe this whole sand bit is a bunch of balogny. In the near future, I am going to get some tests ran on all of my dragons for signs of impaction.

[V.hb]

From expierience, sand does cause impactions in beardies mainly due to the fact that they ingest to much of it while eating. With proper heat/hydration some do well, but juvis will usually die from it.

Most people keep beardies incorrectly, a tank with a screen top will just dry out the beardie, and then add sand to the mix and its even dryer.. Dont forget beardies don't originate from the sahara desert... They live in all climates, but nothing thats bone dry all year round.

[tHeGiNo]

Where exactly do they ingest 'too much' so to say. I rarely see dragons take in sand with the feeder items. And I've been forgetting to mention, I only use sand on dragons at LEAST six years old if they are males, older if they are females.

[V.hb]

I think at one point everyone kept them on sand.... I just dont agree with it. You can't get anything right with sand, its dusty and like I said before you can't achieve any decent level of humidity, period...

Think about it, beardies grab crickets with their tongue, lots of sand attaches to the food item, and of course their tongue.. when swallowed sand does crystalize inside them.. Iam not saying every beardie will die, i know the paranoia that eyespy put on alot of you, but it just isnt good all around for the animal IMO. Most people feel because their beardies breed they have done everything right, but beardies will breed in horrific conditions.

[V.hb]

btw. I use bran most of the time, its no better than sand condition wise but at least its digestable.. Ive never heard of it having sharp edges that can cause injury, thats news to me..

The mold part is true, if any moisture touches it, it molds, which is a pain in the butt, and man it STINKS.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
I must admit, at one point I too was convinced with this fallacy. And a big part of this was due to Eyespy and her several thousand apparant impaction victims, until she was proved a fake. Anyhow, I now refuse to believe that sand is as deadly as it is acclaimed to be. Once someone proves to me with solid cases of impaction deaths, I do not believe it. If kept under the proper conditions and temperatures, I do not believe it poses a problem.

I wouldn't really call this perfect, for bearded dragons that is. I find they do a lot better, psychologically wise, on a substrate such as sand. They just do not seem the same in their activity and behaviour on this, from my perspective.

Under cons for bran, you forgot to mention the fact that peices of this can be really sharp, and are potentially dangerous when ingested. The stuff molds way to easily, so I do not favour it.

Again, I believe this whole sand bit is a bunch of balogny. In the near future, I am going to get some tests ran on all of my dragons for signs of impaction.

I have dealt with it first hand, i HAVE had a cellular stomach wash and SAND was in the vial left over as i have mentioned in a previous post, so there is NO convincing me that sand does not build up in the stomach and intestinal lining!!! That is all the proof i need (because i didnt' believe the claim at first either), but other people don't believe things until it happens to them and these is one of those things. Where was Eyespy mentioned as a "fake" i would like to read that (kinda like where's proof before you make a claim like that)???

Have you ever seen and felt wheat bran??? There is NO sharp edges at all!!! I did also mention it will mold when the water bowl is left in the cage on the substate, mistings and salad or food pelets that get tossed out of the dish should not mold wheat bran at all. I have been using it for a few months and have NEVER had a problem with it molding, after taking the advice NOT to leave a water dish in. I also made the suggestion to look at ChristinaM's (sorry if the name is wrong) gallery to see how she sectioned off a spot for the food and water dish.

As far as the "psychological" thing goes, that's only "assuming" they enjoy it more. I may only have 2 adults but i have also had "youngins" and i have not seen a change in their "attitude" no matter what substrate their on. I use more natural substrate for me not for them, if i didn't want a nice enclosure or didn't have the money then i would have them on papertowles and newspaper. I'm sure most members have seen my leo setup that thing is a pain to fully clean, but i do it me cause i like looking over and saying WOW that looks really good. But if for a second it wasn't "proper" for them then they would be on paper towels, heck they lived 1 strait year on them.

Ok my tv shows just started i have to go, have a great weekend all!!!

[Pia]

"I must admit, at one point I too was convinced with this fallacy. And a big part of this was due to Eyespy and her several thousand apparant impaction victims, until she was proved a fake." quoted from previous post by thegingo

thegino:

How do you mean a fake? I did a search of this forum and couldn't find anything to that effect. Have I missed something? Please clarifiy your statement.

[tHeGiNo]

Pia - eyespy was a member here who was supposedly a veterinary technician, who knows if she really was. Anyhow, she would always say how she had thousands (literally) of bearded dragons come in dying from sand impactions. This led everyone to believe that sand was an evil substance from hell. Anyhow, a story I am not going to get into, she was proved to be a fake. Anyone who has been frequenting this site for a while will likely know what I am talking about, and thats why I didn't explain what I meant.

[tHeGiNo]

Oh and I forgot:

Have you ever seen and felt wheat bran??? There is NO sharp edges at all!!! I did also mention it will mold when the water bowl is left in the cage on the substate, mistings and salad or food pelets that get tossed out of the dish should not mold wheat bran at all. I have been using it for a few months and have NEVER had a problem with it molding, after taking the advice NOT to leave a water dish in. I also made the suggestion to look at ChristinaM's (sorry if the name is wrong) gallery to see how she sectioned off a spot for the food and water dish.


Take it easy, I was thinking of something else I guess and make a mistake, relax.

As far as the "psychological" thing goes, that's only "assuming" they enjoy it more. I may only have 2 adults but i have also had "youngins" and i have not seen a change in their "attitude" no matter what substrate their on.

Like I said, this is from my experience of what I thought I noticed.

In regards to my "claim" the evidence I have to make such a "claim" is right here, take a look and knock yourself out.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30200

[spidergecko]

I will give my take on the whole sand thing based on some gecko experience.

My geckos were kept on play sand. Maybe last month, I was feeding the geckos (spider geckos) and I noticed one female was very thin and boney. Since the colony was healthy, I wasn't paying the daily attention to them that maybe I should have. It was only 2 weeks prior that I guranteed she was feeding. I promptly removed her and felt her belly; hard with sand. It took about two days for her to die. When I did my own "autopsy" I found that her lower intestine was ruptured, sand filled her body cavity, and the lower portion of the bowel was necrotic. Last year, I came home from work to find trickles of blood on a rock in the enclosure. Attached to the rock was a hard mass of sand and feces. This time it was the male. His colon was everted. The vet told me it was parasites so it didn't clue in that this was sand related. He died a few months later since it seems he never ate again, at least not on his own.

I switched to quartz-based sand (not silica play sand). This week I found another female with a hard belly. Fortunately, the sand passed within an hour or so after quarantine so I'm sure she has had and passed quartz sand this way before. She wasn't thin or boney like the other female.

Silca sand is jagged and sharp and this allows it to "stick" in the gut. It can accumulate in the gut. Quartz sand is "rounder" so even if it does impact a gecko, there is a possibility it will pass with time or minor treatment (soaking, laxatives, etc.). With silica impaction, it's usually over for the gecko without surgery or invasive treatment.

I only wanted to state my experience because my geckos were not unhealthy. It does affect healthy animals. But of course, geckos aren't bearded dragons. But I did a little research and I don't believe silica sand is native to bearded dragon environments, either. Australia?

[tHeGiNo]

Like you said, a small likely WC sand gecko, and a healthy adult bearded dragon are two totally different scenarios.

[spidergecko]

Regardless of the species, I just want to say that losing a reptile to sand impaction is a horrble thing to witness. I can't stop anyone from picking a bedding they want to use but I can just say that play sand is too a big risk for me.

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
Like you said, a small likely WC sand gecko, and a healthy adult bearded dragon are two totally different scenarios.

Wait a sec. Are you calling my spider geckos "small likely WC sand gecko", or are you refering to another post? I can assure you my spider geckos are all CBB by me. I know what they've eaten from their first meal to the day they leave me.

[tHeGiNo]

Whoops, I thought they were from a pet store. Sorry. Again, I am going to run some tests on all of my dragons which are on sand, which is quite a few, just for interests sake. If I find any problems or any sand in any of them, then I will start to think of an alternative substrate.