GTP wont eat..how long bf forcefeeding?

[FireFoz]

I have a new GTP Aru locality. It ate 6 times at the breeder. Last time was march 21. I picked him up at march 27 and he hasn't eating at all since then. He doesn't show any interest in the pinky's im giving him (dead or alive) and I tried about all tips and tricks I could find on the internet.
He seems to be stressed because at the breeders place when i was chosing because him and his sisters and brothers, he was biting like crazy to anything that moved. Because of this i thought he would eat well because if he strikes at the pinky he'd probably eat it too, but since he's with me he doesnt strike at anything or even tried, he just tries to get away.

Anyway, temp and hum. are good, everything seems good (believe me, I have checked about all sites about chondro's and made sure everything (same cage he lived in at the breeder, good temps/hum etc are ok), i have no idea why it isnt eating or why it is stressed out...

So my question is, how long should i going trying to get him to eat by hisself? He did eat 6 pinky's before i got him, so he got some "reserve" though but its not much of course. What do you guys think?

[BoidKeeper]

Forcing, especially a fragile Chondro should be your last resort. This is not a corn snake, it will take a long time to settle in and relax.
He could also be in shed too but chances are he is stressed out.
Leave him alone for at least three weeks then try what ever he ate last while he was at the breeders.
What is your set up like? What are your temps and humidity?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Derrick]

I dont know much about anything but the first 2 things that come to mind is that you may be paying your snake a little too much attention. I think I would find it hard not to spent the day just watching such a beautiful creature. I'm thinking put it someplace won't of the way and dont bother it for a week or so and maybe cover it with a towel or something.

Also like boidkeeper mentioned check your temps and humidity. I would assume though especially with a fragile snake like a Chondro you had a stable setup running for a week or 2 before you brought it home.

You may want to get exact details on what type of routine the breeder kept and the temps, humidity and setup he ran and try to mimic them to make it feel more at home

[Piers]

As for any new snake if your tring to feed more than every 5-7 days you might be stressing it out.
As Derrick said you should leave it aloan. Have as little contacted as posibble, only as much as needed for good health.
Piers

[FireFoz]

temps are 28 celcius degrees during day and 24 celcius during the night. Humidity is about 60-70% during the day and about 80% during the night. I had this setup running before the chondro came so thats not really the problem.

I know I am too concerned about him. I feel like an excited dog who has to stay in his basket. This little guy is so good looking, I could look at him the entire day. But of course, I'm not doing this. The room he is in is my bedroom. I stand up in the morning at 8 am, dress myself quickly but quitly and leave. I come back in the room at about 7 pm, sit behind my computer till 11 pm and go to bed. I have no loud music or whatsoever. I have also put a black blanket in front of the windows of the terrarium so he doesn't see anything happening outside the terrarium (movements and so). Also i try to keep the vibrations to a minimum (vibrations from walking on the floor and such).

I have included a little picture of the setup he is in currently. I'll leave him alone for a full week now to see if it gets any better and then try a living pinky.

But after how many weeks should I really start to get worried? I know boa's can keep up for quite a long time without eating but chondro's seems to have a real different body structure, much thinner and less massive. He hasn't eaten for exaclty 29 days now. (4 weeks and 2 days)

These pics are taken when i just got him. His cage is flat now too (did that right after i took the pic, on the pic its a bit skewed.)

[FireFoz]

heres another one

[FireFoz]

Oh yeah I forgot to say he is REALLY active during the night (crawling around most of the time)

[Memnoch]

Your temperatures are all wrong. 24°C or 75°F is quite a bit on the cool side. They should have a gradient from 80°F - 86°F (26.5°C - 30°C). IMO night time temp drops are just stressful on young GTPs.

Are you spraying your GTP? GTPs tend to drink the beads of water that collect on their bodies after a spraying. Keeping the humidity high is only secondary. High humidity just decreases how fast they dry out.

Furthermore, humidity is a function of the ambient temperature. The warmer the air the more water it can hold. That means hydrometers like the one you have (the ones that gauge humidity by evaporation) will give a higher humidity readings when the temperature is lower. With that being said, your humidty is probably too low.

I've only touched on two issues (temp and humidity) so far and they seem to be quite off. If your GTP has eaten 6 times at the breeder, that'll probably make him/her about 1-2 months old (6 feedings, 1 feeding / 5-7 days = 30-42 days). At that age they are EXTREMELY delicate. Fix your temperature problem and your humidity problem and then try feeding.

In addition to temp and humidity, tell us a little more about your setup, how are you heating the enclosure? How many perches are you using? Is there any cover (e.g. leaves etc.)?

One last thing, I'm not sure what sites you've been reading about GTP husbandry, but keeping temps that low is not something most experienced GTP keepers suggest, especially when it comes to hatchlings. If you haven't checked this site out, I would. http://www.finegtps.com/Care_sheets.html
Alternatively, if you want to make a good investment, go purchase Greg Maxwell's book, "The Complete Chondro".

[FireFoz]

Hmm you are right about that it does indeed say minimum 75 F during the night (which is 24 C though), I could raise that to 76,5. A lot of people have been telling me 24 C is good though and that young GTPs can easily be harmed when you give them too much eat...so i was a little carefull with the heat and didnt want to overheat him.

I'm currently not spraying on the Chondro himself, because I thought that would stress him. I'll do that from now on. How often should I do that, and, should I do that during the night or day? I do have a small cup filled with water in his cage.

The chondro is in a plastic box. It is exactly the same type box as he was in at the breeder. It has 1 perch (like he had at the breeder) at approximately 4 cm below the "roof" of the box. I was thinking of planning another perch but it didnt had that at the breeder either and the box is quite small for it (about 30 cm x 20 cm). At the bottom of the box I have tissues (like toilet paper but bigger). Thats all there is in the box. Of course I have the box ventilated by perforations in it.

I placed the box in a larger cage, which I keep on tempature with a ceramic lamp located on a safe place so it doesnt give heat right at the box but near it. This lamp is connected on a thermostat which has its sensor INSIDE the box, so it measures the temp in the box and not in the cage, because that could differ.
I use a normal spot for the light during the day, from 8 am to 8 pm so he has 12 hours day 12 hours night. Should this be increased?

I'm planning on buying that book, but I live in Holland and it is quite expensive to get here, so on the next reptile expo (5th of april) I'm going to get it. I did read that site (finetgps) before though.

Anything else?


ps thanks for your help so far guys

[BoidKeeper]

My temps are 88-90 hot spot 24/7 and my room is 82-80.
Greg Maxwell recomends spraying every morning and allowing the tank to dry over night. I also use 4 perches of different sizes. Three run the length of the tank one width.
Cheers,
Trevor

[FireFoz]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
My temps are 88-90 hot spot 24/7 and my room is 82-80.
Greg Maxwell recomends spraying every morning and allowing the tank to dry over night. I also use 4 perches of different sizes. Three run the length of the tank one width.
Cheers,
Trevor

Well because he is in such a small box for now, It is hard to make hotspots... the tempature is basicly the same in the entire box. Do you think I should add another perch, even though the box is actually too small for 2?

In my big cage (where he is going to be in the end) I have 4 perches as well.

[BoidKeeper]

the tempature is basicly the same in the entire box.
That might be your biggest problem, the snake can't thermoregulate. That will deffinately cause stress having to stay at one temp all the time.

Do you think I should add another perch, even though the box is actually too small for 2?
I think you should move him into a 10g tank with a screen lid and a heat lamp hooked to a dimmer so you can control the temp. In a 10g you'll have lots of room for percheas, substrate that hold humidity and a basking spot.
Cheers,
Trevor

[FireFoz]

Originally posted by Memnoch
Your temperatures are all wrong. 24°C or 75°F is quite a bit on the cool side. They should have a gradient from 80°F - 86°F (26.5°C - 30°C). IMO night time temp drops are just stressful on young GTPs.


So you keep your young chondro's day and night on 26.5 - 30?
I got him at 29 during the day now and 25 at night...

I did spray him with not too cold water just a few min ago but he didnt really seem to care. I'll do that every morning from now and see how it goes with feeding in a week or so... or some longer maybe. Now he should be in a quite ok cage right?

Boidkeeper, you say you should move him to a larger cage, but I hear from a lot of people that when you move a young chondro to a larger cage he might not eat anymore because they get stressed and they are better off in a smaller box for the first months. What about that? The cage is not THAT small its like 22x30 cm and about 17 cm in height. (like 8.66 x 11.8 x 6.7 inch)

I hear so many different things...the breeder had him in exactly the same box so i would think that would not be the main problem

[marisa]

I don't know much about GTP's but I think the problems were a couple things that you are addressing now....one being lack of heat gradient. Two being no heat at night, and three being no misting.

Now that you are correcting these issues, let him be a couple/few weeks. Let him settle in. No handling, no feeding attempts just a daily schedual of misting. After that then try feeding. That's my non-expert advice.

Marisa

[FireFoz]

Originally posted by marisa
I don't know much about GTP's but I think the problems were a couple things that you are addressing now....one being lack of heat gradient. Two being no heat at night, and three being no misting.

Now that you are correcting these issues, let him be a couple/few weeks. Let him settle in. No handling, no feeding attempts just a daily schedual of misting. After that then try feeding. That's my non-expert advice.

Marisa

I did give him heat during the night, but just 75 F which seems to be a few F too low.
I did mist too, just not AT the GTP himself but more the cage. I was focussing on the humidity in the air and didnt think about the GTP himself needing moisture on him too.... so its not like i just put the GTP in, set the day heat at 28 celcius and didnt do anything else..

[marisa]

No I didn't mean that at all. It's obvious you are concerned and trying to better his situation. I just meant now that you know about the higher night temps, a gradient, and misting I think with time and patience he will come around.

Although I believe your main concern is knowing how long is too long...I don't think you are at that point yet. Like I said, I would perfect everything like you are doing now, and give it a couple weeks. You know, solitary confinment :P

Marisa

[FireFoz]

Ahh ok :) Thanks :)

Hopefully these new temps and full rest will do the trick :)
Its hard to do just nothing you know... i want to do something so it eats but basicly what i have to do is nothing, thats quite hard :p

[BoidKeeper]

Regardless of the size of the cage the most important thing right now in your case I think is to provide him with a cage that he can thermoregulate in.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Memnoch]

Daily misting is a must simply b/c the GTP will just dry out. It's even more vital when they are young b/c their skin is a lot thinner, allowing more water to pass through.

In regards to enclosure size, larger is better b/c they can thermoregulate much better and they can get some form of exercise via exploration. However, there must be enough cover for the GTP to hide in or he/she will get stressed out.

In regards to thermoregulation, the heat gradient can be horizontal and since they are arboreal, the gradient can also be vertical. You can establish a vertical gradient by making perches at different heights. So if he/she gets too hot, he/she can just go down to a cooler lower perch.

Finally, IMO and experience, GTPs are not as sensitive to higher temperature ranges compared to ETBs who will start to regurgitate due to the food rotting in their stomach. If I were you, I would bump the ambient temperature up to 82°F - 85° with no night time drops. There is really no need for night time drops when they are that young. The main idea of night time drops is to simulate rainy season to induce courtship / breeding behaviour. IMO the night time drops will stress the GTP out more than anything.

To summarize, the things I would do if I were you are:
1. Increase the ambient temp. to 82°F all day.
2. Mist on a daily basis. (room temp - warm water).
3. Leave the water dish in there.
4. Add some more perches. If you're using branches, make sure they're sterilized.
5. Add some sort of cover. e.g. fake silk plants, or add a plant such as porthos which will do amazing in a high humidity environment.
6. After doing all of these "renovations" comes the hardest part. Don't visit, touch or open the cage (unless when spraying) for at least a few days, preferably a week.

Honestly, if you follow this, your GTP will be eating by next week, if not by the end of the weekend. GTPs are not really that hard to keep. You just have to know what they "like".

I hope this helps.

[Tim Schroeder]

FireFoz,

It just sounds like your chondro is a bit stressed out. You're paying too much attention to it, and may be adding to the problem. Just be patient, that is the biggest thing you need when dealing with chondros. I've been there before, but in the end patience paid off.

Some tips for success with your chondro. You'll want a temperature gradient around 78-86. A smaller range can work, as can a larger one. Drop the temp drop at night, the animals don't need it, none of mine get one until breeding season. Humidity % isn't really all that important, in my opinion. Right now I would just put a large water bowl in the cage to raise the humidity, and forget misting. It may stress the hatchling out too much at this point. Not so much from getting misted, but your interacting with him. Once you get a small handful of meals in it, you should probably start misting again. The important aspect of humidity is not the percentage, but the cycling of high humidity with low humidity. You should mist every one or two days, so that you get some nice condensation on the sides of the tub that should last quite a few hours. Then make sure the cage dries out thoroughly, so you don't see the condensation on the sides of the box for a couple hours. Too much humidity can cause skin problems. Don't feed too often, it sounds like you've tried way too often. When I get new chondros in, or any snakes for that matter, I rarely feed before they settle in for a week. Oftentimes they don't get food until a month has passed. Even though it is refusing, I wouldn't recommend feeding any more often than if it did eat. Once a week should be fine.

Cagewise, I think you're onto the right idea. I don't think there is anything out there that can be better for establishing a hatchling or neonate chondro than a small plastic shoebox. Aquariums, and more spacious cages can cause security issues with a baby green tree, even if there is adequate cover. Aquariums with screen tops are going to be a hassle as they'll lose the humidity and heat more readily. It just flows right out the top. Granted there are ways to overcome this, but its not worth the hassle especially if you already have a tub for the most part set up. Here is a link to a great way to set up a tub for an individual chondro(http://www.finegtps.com/cagingbabies.htm). I keep mine in racks, but the concept is the same. I'm in no way against more naturalistic enclosures, as they can look phenomenal, but a simple cage will help you to establish the chondro in the quickest manner.

Best of luck, and remember these guys are addicting :)

Tim


http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/v51/chondroTim/Chondros/small115-1519_IMG.jpg

[Holy Mackerel]

It has been said already, but I want to add my thoughts to back people up:

1- Mist the snake, I am currently misting only once a day (but with a considerable amount of water, and definatly directly on the snake, as well as on the walls of the enclosure). My snake is now about 8 months old. At a younger age I was misting twice a day, once in the morning, and once at night, around 8pm.

2- I do provide a water dish. Direct drinking from it occurs occasionally, but not often. Most of the water intake is from water beads on its scales, and from prey sources.

3- Keep the temp at a resonable level, day and night. I have never flucuated my temp. to decrease at night. My snake is eating too well and is gaining weight like none other.

These are personal opinions, but also reflect similar things others have already said. You have to get to know your chondro and what it prefers. Best of luck.

[FireFoz]

Hey thanks for all the new replies :)
I have raised the temp to 78 F /night and 82 F day, so nearly any difference actually...maybe i;ll pull it even when i get back home.

Also i've started to mist. I did it yesterday when i got home at about 5 pm when the lights were on, but he didnt really react on it. He only moved a little but that was about it.
This morning i mist as well, and the same happend (nothing).

Tonight at 8:10 when the lamps will be off for about 10 minutes i';ll mist again and see what he does. He usually (every day) gets active at 8 pm when the lamps go off. He's crawling around for a few hours after 8 pm so maybe he'll do more with the condensation then.

I'll let you guys know how it goes, thanks for all the feed back man :)

[BoidKeeper]

I have raised the temp to 78 F /night and 82 F day
Are you refering to ambiants or basking?

Also i've started to mist. I did it yesterday when i got home at about 5 pm
You have to mist in the morning only and let the cage dry over night. If you mist at night you can really take down the temps.
I mist mine every morning like clock work but I also have a water bowl in there at all times too.
Greg Maxwell also wrote an article in the 2004 anual of reptile magazine it is really worth reading ASAP while you're waiting for your copy of The Complete Chondro.
Cheers,
Trevor

[FireFoz]

Ok now something REALLY odd happend :eek:

I quitly opened his cage to mist after the lamps were gone off. I put the mister (just a manual thing) at the finest mist there is and slowly spray inside the cage.

What do you think happens? He fells of his perch!!!!!!!
I first though he was dead! But he isnt for god sake...but man that was weird!!
i think he somehow was shocked by me misting or so...

man i regret that i did that misting now :(
I bet that just stressed him out even more :(

[Piers]

relax, snakes are not as graceful as we would like them to be all the time. I've had tree snakes so clumbsy that I'd wounder how they do in the wild!
Condros are a different animal at night, they are a lot more alert and can be more aggressive. this is why most people feed them at night. they are night time feeders, try to feed it about 1 hour after dark. use a red or black bulb in the room so you can see and try feeding. remember dont move too much and you might have to precent the food 1,3,6,+ times !
Yeah it sucks, but what you guna do ?
Piers

[FireFoz]

I just misted again and again he dropped on the ground... ?????
I really don't know why he is doing that i think he just let himself fall...

[Piers]

Well I think that tells you don't spray it directly. it seems to be startling the snake.
Spray the cage and avoid the condro.
Piers

[Memnoch]

FireFoz: What's the temperature like now? Also did you add any foliage yet?

[daver676]

Have you established a temperature GRADIENT yet. Gradient doesn't mean 82 during the day and 78 at night, it means 82 on one side and 78 on the other at the same time. You probably know this but it doesn't seem like you have solved the problem.

[FireFoz]

Hey guys I have GREAT NEWS !!!!! He ate !!!!


Just a few min ago!! I'll give you the report.


Yesterday I tried feeding him again with a small living pinky. As usual, no interest at all. He is crawling around his cage every night for hours though. So I left this tiny pinky with him all night and even all day today.

I called the breeder I got him from and told him the problem. I was hoping he would offer me to bring him back to him so he could feed him a few times (maybe force feed) and then get it back. He told me to get chickens (I dont know the word for them in english; those small juvenile yellow chickens) and cut of a LEG of it. So i did an i read a few times you can try to scent the pinky with chicken scent. So i did that, but guess what: no interest. So like the REALLY LAAAST resort, i had this chicken leg and I hold it in from of him (it was like 1,5 cm long and 4 mm thick (about 0.78 inch long).
Hey ! He didnt turn his head away! He didnt bite either but he was just sitting still. Then he curled up his neck but nothing happend. Because I was sooooo excited and nervous the leg dropped out my pincet tongs and felt on the bottom of his cage. He went to it and then gently took it in his mouth and.... "ran" away with it!! looooool!! He was just crawling around his cage with the leg in his mouth. So I quickly but gently put the top of the cage / box back on it and left him alone for about 15 min.
After 15 minutes I gently peeked and.... the leg was gone !!! YEEEEEEEHAAAAA!
Man i was so happy :)

The living pinky howerver, would still be crawling around in his box if i wouldnt have taken it away now.

I had a good look at my chondro today and I noticed he really started to become thin now. You can see his "bones" now and he kinda looks like skin around bones now. It was really necessery he ate today and so he did.

About the gradient: you are right on it, I know. However it is impossible for me to make, because he is in such a small box (the exact same box as he was in with the breeder) that i can't make gradient differernce. I wish I could but it is impossible. Also I can't put him in a larger box, because I put him in a cage where I can control the heat. I can't put in a wider box in that cage (its a small but deep cage, custom designed). I made that cage specially for my chondro, and it is small but deep and was meant for him for the first 1,5 year. Its a little hard to understand now but I'll show you some pics soon when i got my digital camera back (its gone now for a repair).
Also I'm not sure if moving him in a nother box would do him any good.

Anyway, he ate now and hopyfully he will do again when i'll try in a few days, maybe sunday.
Of course, untill then, I'll give him full rest.

I'll keep you guys updated, thanks for all the replies!!



Tonight it was my girfriends birthday so I had a little party. When I came back at midnight, I