South Florida Grand Slam of hots

[Mustangrde1]

I went out tonight to see if anything was out and about and found

2 Eastern Diamond backS
2 Cottonmouths
1 Coral Snake
4 Pigmy rattlers
1 Yellow Ratsnake
2 Red Ratsnakes
Countless ribbons and watersnakes andnd some good ole dekays.

[Mustangrde1]

The Coral

[Mustangrde1]

Da Mocc

[Mustangrde1]

And yet another tennant checks in to the pigmy motel

[jay72]

Scott,

Congrats on a great night. I am kicking myself for not going with you. Enjoy the new additions.

Sloane

[Mustangrde1]

Answer your phone next time the first time i call lol by the way its a male edb

[jtpRUGGER]

Scott, I'm happy for you, however...the horrible song you made up to interrupt my dinner with lastnight was completely inappropriate. Why, might you ask? Oh, because the weather here is a nice overcast 34 DEGREES!!!!! Lovely cold front...it should hit you right about the time James and I start finding klauberi this week. That will make me feel better about your song.

[Mustangrde1]

lmao.Oh and by the way are 7 day forcast is.Mid 80's to High 70'S by weeks end. Have fun with your cold front. I know im going to pay for teasing you so bad when you actually get warm weather for collecting.HOWEVER until then im having fun...

[Retic chic]

Great finds, and what an assortment of herps you have to go looking for.

[Gary O]

Yeah he is very lucky to be where he is. Up in Ohio not so many lol.

Nice finds Scott. As you already guess I like the Coral. Something about the little guys.

[Mustangrde1]

I love corals and kraits. I hope to start breeding them next year. atleast the corals for sure. crossing my fingers

[anders_240sx]

Did you take them from the wild and put them in your tanks?

[SCReptiles]

Don't forget where you got that coral from and point me that way in 2 weeks. =) lucky dawg!

[SCReptiles]

Did you take them from the wild and put them in your tanks?

No, we take them from the wild and put them in our pockets. What kind of a stupid question is that? Where else would you put them? =)

[JoeBradley]

I put mine on a leash when I catch them. Makes them feel a little more like they are in the wild instead of a cage.

[Yness]

Gonna go look for herps here....maybe under that last remnant pile of snow...DOH...I am off the the Narcisse breeding grounds in a couple of weeks...Gonna have fun it'll be my first field herping expedition...I can guarantee that I won't find any hots tho....not native ones anyway

[SCReptiles]

Good luck Yness. You going to put them in a tank or tie them up out back?

[Bartman]

I think he just wanted to know if you are keeping them in those tanks..and not setting them free..just what id see that question as.

[Yness]

gonna catch and take a picture and let them go...It'll just be garter snakes...
heh...talking about garter snakes in the venomous forum, way to go Yness!!!

[SCReptiles]

I think he just wanted to know if you are keeping them in those tanks..and not setting them free..just what id see that question as.

Thanks Bartman, don’t know what we would do without you!

[Mustangrde1]

Chuck I will be more then happy to tell you where i caught them, From the Motel you stay at. Directions are simple, turn left out of the parking lot go 15 miles and your right about there. that east 15 miles:) ill give you the road when you get here. its about an hour and a half drive so you will need to leave about 5 pm to get there.

[Bartman]

Well cleary you didnt get what he was saying...

[jtpRUGGER]

Scott, what time do I need to leave to be there in time? I'm chomping at the bit here. Oh, and when it IS herping season here, I will pay you back. Believe me.

[JeffT]

Nice stuff you found, Pigmy's have got to be the most colorful RS there.

[SCReptiles]

Well cleary you didnt get what he was saying...

Bartman, go to www.Dictionary.com and look up sarcasm. Study it, write it down. Put it on flash cards and work with your friends. Then come back and read what I wrote one more time. =)

[Mustangrde1]

The Easter Rattler as he will now be called seems to like his new accomidations

[herpetological]

Great bunch Scott! Scott called me about these the night he caught them......He said he wanted to give me his count for Saturday.....Well, I didn't get a "grand slam" on venomous but in 6 hours on Saturday afternoon to 10:30 pm I did get the following: 11 Green Water Snake, 24 Florida Water Snake, 11 Brown Water snake, 2 S.Fl. Red Rat, 2 Yellow Rat, 1 Everglades Rat, 2 Striped Swamp snake, 4 "True" Blue Phase Ribbon Snake, 4 Fl. Garter, 1 Florida King Adult(Gravid), 1 Yearling Fl. King, 1-Scarlet King, 1 Legless Lizard, 1 Scarlet Snake, 7 normal Ribbon Snake, 11 Fl.Cottonmouth, 1 ringneck, Leopard Frogs, Pig Frogs, Anoles etc. Not bad for 6-7 hours? It's drying up very badly in the South! At night you can look down the canals.....The gators' are so thick in what water is left that you could nearly walk on them! For those who are concerned about over collecting....I left several hundred more that will replace the few I collected. Especially the water snakes.... One area of highway about 1/2 mile long had over 50 carcasses hit by cars.What a shame.

[shaggybill]

Awesome pics. What a great night that must have been!

You guys from the Port Saint Lucie area are always talking about the great roads you cruise, but everytime I go down there, I cant seem to find any that are low-traffic or open to the public. Are these roads you guys are talking about close to PSL?

[TheRedDragon]

Great finds there! I wish I was lucky enough to find such beautiful creatures. :) Good luck with your new additions. :)

[herpetological]

Port St. Lucie proper is no longer a viable collecting area......You have to go west. Many of the productive roads we know of come from years of exploring and careful secrets! The prairie area Scott was talking about still produces but, it looks like a mob scene now on any given night. It's getting bad but, we still have our secrets!!LOL's!

[shaggybill]

Thats cool. I dont collect, not that I have anything against it, but I dont want to make headlines for carrying a EDB on the plane ride home. Hehe.

I didnt know there were so many people that were out there looking for them. Are these roads close to Lake Okeechobee? Last time I was down, I briefly cruised what looked like a great dirt road in the Okeechobee area. When I come back down in May, I hope I'll get an opportunity to drive it.

By the way, have you ever herped Jonathan Dickinson State Park? I did when I was there in March, but I only saw a few Racers and a couple of gators. It was a pretty neat place though.

[Mustangrde1]

SDSP is a fun place to go herping. The roads out and around the big O are always a good place to look be careful some of these roads are private property access roads. If your up to a little drive there are some real good roads off SR 70 near Highlands county and a few more in In northern Ockeechobee off Sr 68 /441 around Fort Drum. If you ever have time when your down here i could take you out on them.

Ive ran in to several fish and wildlife and sheriff's officers lately while out road running so best to not mess with the hots unless you have your Fl VRL. Also rmember molesting gators or gopher torts will get you in a world of trouble no touch rule on those.

[shaggybill]

Thanks for the info. I didnt realize there was a no touch rule on Gopher torts. When I was at JDSP, there was one out by the road, and I was moving it around for better pics. Good thing that Wildlife Officer didnt drive by at that moment. He didnt seem too nice of a guy.

Oh yeah, which park is SDSP? I am racking my brain, but its not coming to me.

[Mustangrde1]

Um should have been JDSP do to lack of coffee and early damn hour it was misspelled. Juan hadn't brewed yet lol. I wish they made an alarm clock that just released coffee straight in to your vein.

[herpetological]

I worked on a study there in the early 80's on Sceloporus (Scrub Lizards.) They seem to frown on any disturbance in regards to herps these days. Still a good place to look. Quite a few upland scrub species.

[AlexPan]

I thought we as herpers, are SUPPOSED to preserve nature, educate people about nature, and most inportanly NOT go out and catch the snakes ( or any other animal) just so some one can look at them at their house!!! I am sooo pissed at some people here! I will work and do my best in letting the authorities know (including the police) about the things that are being done, and more importantly by who!

Every one, preserve nature! Leave it the way you found it! NEVER take anything from the wild! In last month i have seeing numerous desterbing posts in which people said they take them home to take pictures, or even to keep! Am i not wright? Should we just go ahead and take what we want untill there is nothing left to take? This is such a shame to see people to see so many people going and catching the snakes as if there were some kind of toys!

[Julliet]

ok Alex......I think I might have an opinion to give here. While there are some out there that do rape the land not everyone does. In fact people such as Ray gushaw do return animals to the wild and replace things that they take. Now as far as leaving everything where it is....um I take it you live in a house or some type of housing. Where you are now living was once home to a multitude of creatures by having that apartment or house built you have ruined part of thier habitat. Doing that you have also taken away viable land which was being used for food ,breeding etc. As in the case of deer overcrowding occurs when habitats are shrunk due to developement. this causes a major strain on the remaining wilds to be able to support the wildlife. Not to mention the quality of the wildlife . I have seen deer starve to death due to the fact that the remaining forrests could not support the amount of animals who were forced to cram in there due to developement of the land. Now hunting while some consider barbaric is actually a great form of conservation . it thins out the herd so they can better survive in the diminishing wild lands. Here in Florida I see the same thing happening with the alligator as well as the florida panther . I have also seen it with certain snakes such as the eastern diamond back . If taking a few animals out of the wild so that many can and will survive I see no harm. That is not to mean to wipe out a population however , carefull harvesting will help the remaining populations survive and thrive in the remaining wild that humans allow them to have. So while you are on that soap box ...how about educating people not to wipe out entire forrests for houses or clubs?


Also as a side note......ummm those california king snakes you breed? I do believe that they came from snakes that were taken from the wild as well as all of the animals you breed...including those cute little madagascar hissing roaches. While they may now be captive bred they origonated in the wild correct? sssooooo how about returning them to the wild?

[lowrider2004]

So Julliet what your saying, it isn't illeagal to take wild life from there habitat?, i'm not on anybody's side but just wondering if it is illeagal?

I have took a few gardner snakes and alligator lizards home but put them back after a few hour's of looking at them and seeing what they do.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Being illegal would depend on the place, animal and person collecting. Here for the most part you just need a wildlife collecting permit or a hunting/fishing permit. Some animals you can't touch unless you are a "Degreed" scientist that is permited.
It all depends.

Also, Catching keeping then releasing isn't always a good idea..

~Xain

[Mustangrde1]

Alex. It is perfectly legal to collect reptiles here in Florida with a few exceptions. We also have permits that one must posses to own certain numbers and or species. If you do not like field collecting then do not do it. http://myfwc.com/permits/

Many of us however do enjoy it and do far more conservation work then anyone could imagine. Just Curious how many times have you got out and helped build new or restore" Upland or Riparian habitat " or worked helped clear a land for Marshland?

Some states have diffrent laws so you need to be aware of each states laws pertaining to reptile collection and ownership check your local DNR for information. Remember all reptiles in captivity once were from wild stock.

[herpetological]

Ok here we go with the whole"box of worms" so to speak. First and foremost I am a conservationist. In addition I am a degreed Biologist. The specimens we collect go to research programs or facilities interested in working with a particular species. I agree that collecting pressure can and often does have an impact on certain species of herps. However, many species can sustain a harvest. As mentioned, due to habitat loss and destruction most appex predators are eliminated from the "food chain". When this happens the species which once had biological checks increase in number. The entire biological and ecological chain in S. Florida has sustained a change that may never be repaired. Certain areas still are safe from these impacts......But, for how long? I has been determined that many species are actually increasing in numbers due to habitat changes brought about by man. A good example is the area to the south of Lake Okeechobee. This area(Which consists of hundreds of square miles) was once a very important part of the Everglades. It was drained in the 1930's to make farm land. Species such as everglades rat snakes no longer exist there. The populations of Florida King Snakes, Scarlet King Snakes, Red Rat Snakes(Especially the Anerythristic color form) have expolded over the last 30 years. These species have been collected by commercial collectors for many years. In one season back in the early 80's over 10,000 Florida Kings were collected. When this was heard everyone was up in arms! However, it has been proven that this species not only can sustain a harvest but, that it was beneficial to the overall health of the population. Now, before we get off on a different topic.......I'd like to point out that I am a firm supporter of Captive breeding and will always recommend that a person select C.B. over wild caught specimens. I also, do not condone overcollection of a species. The biggest impact by far is habitat destruction, loss and modification done in the name of progress. Yes, we did collect quite a few snakes while we were in the field. However, we carefully selected which specimens we wanted to keep and work with. We set limits and once those limits were reached we only removed snakes from the roadway to keep them from being killed. While we were there the water levels were extremely low. Population densities of some species especially alligators were very high. (As many as 200 per 1/2 mile) Why? Because it was in mans interest to install drainage canals and water controls structures to keep the multimillion dollar golf courses and condos dry! These were within 1/2 mile from the main swamps edge. I saw over 10,000 acres being cleared on just 3 projects! Please by all means lets blame the collectors who catch a few snakes for the population loss! The alligators were cannibalising each other. Why? for one habitat loss and modification. The second reason.....Because, there is no controlled harvest to keep the population in check. we have created this problem! It's wonderful that the protection programs have allowed alligators to come back as strong as they have. Here's our choice....Allow controls to keep the population at a healthy level or plow over the condos and golf courses and restore them to swamps! I'm for the latter!!! This whole argument on collecting wild caught specimens is circular in nature to begin with. Every species that is bred in captivity today at one time came from wild caught blood lines. (Again. remember that I do support captive over wild caught any time there is an option!) You could also, support the PETA mandate. They are against anyone having pets. OF ANY KIND! Yes I do support and collect limited numbers of wild caught species. However, I also spend about $20,000.00 per year rehabing and rescuing herps! There are pros and cons to both sides and both sides have some valid points. However, if you live in a house, eat food, drive a car, keep any pet.....You have been just as guilty if not more so. All these things have had an impact directly or indirectly on the environment. On the other hand if someone is illegaly collecting a rare, threatened or endangered species for commercial gain then by all means throw the book at them!! "It reminds me of that quote,"People in glass houses..." If you want to do something then by all means get out of the chair and become active in conservation or protection programs. Instead of pointing a finger , research the topic then come up with active solutions. Collecting sustainable species in the wild is not the number one cause of declines by any stretch of the imagination. It IS a small fraction of the problem but, that's only in cases where you have an uneducated, greedy person doing it for nothing more than commercial gain. Last but, not least.....Many of the water snakes will be released on a 5,000 acre wetland that is being created locally. It was filled in years ago for cattle ranches and orange groves. Sorry about any errors in grammar or spelling.... I just get a little irritated when someone makes snap judgements without all the facts. A simple question such as, "I was wondering why you collected these species, is it legal, does it hurt the populations in the wild and what will be done with the surplus specimens.....Well you get my point! SORRY! Ray G. HBR

[Mustangrde1]

Very well said Ray. I think it is important though since conservation was brought up to say there are many outstanding groups out there that do conservation work every day. A few that I belong to and that i can say are well wourth joining are Ducks Unlimited. Delta Waterfowl. National Wild Turkey Federation. Quail Unlimited. Of course there are more but these groups put there Money,Blood and sweat where there mouth is. They are the ones trying to fight habitat loss and in fact are purchasing thousands of acres to restore lost habitat.

As for the threat of calling police lol. WANT THE NUMBERS I am sure our local officers would love comming over to see my animals again. As 1 of the laws in Florida if you keep Venomous you MUST BE INSPECTED. That meens a visit from the Officers to the place you keep them {ie} your house or bussiness. As I have stated before my Local Police and Fire Dept know what I keep. WHY?Because in the event of an emergency if they need to make entry they know what room to stay clear of for their safety. My neibors also know what I keep how? Because one of their sons is Capt with Florida Fish and Game. Also nice because instead of just killing any snake they see as they use to they now call me for removal LIVE.

[Julliet]

Lowrider,
In some cases and places it is indeed illegal to take wildlife out of the wild. As mustangrde has said if you wish to harvest venomous you have to have the proper permits here in florida. Also there are national parks from which you may not harvest as well.
Some species are protected and should never be moved from the habitat unless the animals life is indangered and then it is best to leave it up to the rehab experts so the animals may be returned to the wild,
I am one who has harvested animals out of the wild on occasion as well as given some homes that have litterally shown up on my doorstep. I have also repopulated a few places which have been depleted due to the destruction of a habitat for developement that was then allowed to lay dormant because the money had run out.
I also have enjoyed the rare privalige to have seen these animals thrive and survive in thier new homes.
I also consider it a privalige to have met and know people like Ray gushaw who does rehabing of these animals as well as returning some of them to the wild. Not everyone harvests solely for profit.....however there are some that due. But like everything else people tend to onely see one side of the coin.

[SCReptiles]

Few things aggravate me more then a hypocrite. AlexPan, where in the blue hell you do you think those snakes you keep came from? No one who keeps any type of animal has a right to question field collecting, because that is where they all came from. It’s just like the vegetarian that wears leather shoes. Threatening to call the police? Just when I thought you could not look any more stupid, you go and surprise me. Do you really think we would get on the internet and brag if we were breaking any laws? You think just cause you are an idiot that everyone is? Ray took a lot of time and effort to try and reach you, but I think he wasted his time. Even if he drew you a picture I doubt you would get it. Herpiculture began with us, collecting, studying, and breeding. Without us, there would be no herpiculture, herpetology, ssnakess.com, etc. It never fails to piss me off when people try to demonize the people who started the hobby they participate in.

[BWSmith]

OK, let me give Chuck his Valium ;)


I do know people that keep EVERY SINGLE snake they catch. I do not agree with these collection methods. I try to be a responsible herper and try to encourage it in others. If I am going herping, I generally have a short list of the animals that I need to add to the collection. Even then, I am very picky about the individuals. I am about full on hots, so I cannot really see taking much from the wild this year with the exception of an adult female Dusky Pyg (no males, I dont want any breeding).

But I also think that your location has something to do with your stong opinions. I will make the assumption that you have never been herping in the southern US. Eventually you get sick of kicking water snakes and Cottonmouths off the road. ;) In order to be responsible, you really have to know the snakes and their status in certain areas.

By the same token, there are certain species that just should not be collected by the average or above average herper. They just have too rigid of care requirements. A couple that come to mind are Mud Snakes, Rainbow Snakes, Crawfish Snakes, and Queen Snakes.

[AlexPan]

Guys lets make a few things straight..,

I do agree that all snakes at one time were taken from the wild, but it had to be done in order to start a breeding colony in captivity. What you guys doing is just BARBERIC! You guys take the animals from the wild even thoe you can get which are captive bread! The snakes that are captive bread, did not see the wild there for would not suffer as much in your Rubbermaids et. Yes they came from the wild animals, but it had to be done in order to start a captive colony! What you guys are doing is, taking the animals from the wild even thoe you can get captive bread ones instead!

You guys mentioned that it is good to take them from the wild if there is over population. Well wrong again! the wild animals have a tendency of keeping its balance, and did so for millions of years before humans came!

I am by no means against people keeping and breeding captive bread animals, or with an exception wild caught animal which does not exist in captivity only!

[BWSmith]

What you guys doing is just BARBERIC!
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am sure that PETA and the HSUS think that YOU are barbaric for even keeping animals in captivity. Many would find you barbaric for even eating meat (assuming that you are not a vegitarian).

I am curious as to what YOU have done for conservation and education.

[BWSmith]

Also:
You guys take the animals from the wild even thoe you can get which are captive bread!

Find me Captive Bred Eastern Corals and I'll give you a dollar.



captive bread
I wasn't aware that you could find Wild Bread :D

[lowrider2004]

So, i went to petsmart(I KNOW PETSMART PEOPLE THERE ARE STUPID AND MOST OF THE TIME DON'T NO WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!) a few years ago and they said it is illeagal to take the garter snake and alligator lizards? I wonder if it is?

If you guys are taking snakes out of the wild to give them a better life i have nothing against that, i think that is good, or if you are taking them and breeding them and keeping some and putting some back, but i think if u put a captive bread animal back in the wild i don't think it will do that good.

But alex they have already told you it is not illeagal to take them in florida, so you can't really do anything about it. plus your in canada and there in florida.

[BWSmith]

Animals that have been in captivity should never be released due to the risk of introducing a foreign pathogen into the native population. That is why all of the EDB rescues from the roundup cannot be released. Also due to the unknown locallity of them.

Lowrider, it is GARTER snake ;) Just one of my pet peaves.

[AlexPan]

BWSmith, jere are your Captive Bred Eastern Corals http://www.drmaccorals.com/sys-tmpl/door/

lowrider2004, what is legal is not necessary good for the nature! A good example is.., it was legal to kill Hose Shoe Crabs, until there were almost none left!

[BWSmith]

Eastern Coral SNAKES. Jeez. I truly hope you posted that as a joke.

[lowrider2004]

lol, thats how you spell it, garter snakes, k

[Soul_Reaper]

Originally posted by BWSmith
Eastern Coral SNAKES. Jeez. I truly hope you posted that as a joke.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! I don't think he did. :p :p :p

Some people are just clueless...

[BWSmith]

OK, I promise i will not keep any fish i find under tin piles :D

[Mustangrde1]

Brian. Becareful what you joke about I have found walking catfish under piles :)

Brian you will owe me a dollar soon if all goes well. I now have 1.1 and by summer if collecting goes well should have a nice colony of corals going.

[BWSmith]

Bah. an UNRELATED CB pair ;)

[Mustangrde1]

Picky aint ya

[SCReptiles]

Scoot, Brain, you are barbarians! =)

[Mustangrde1]

Oh you should speak I have seen you eat. It is truly scary even the wolf was afraid of you when you had a fork in hand. either that or he was figuring out how to steal it from you.

[herpetological]

Alex Pan........You make an arguement again without all the facts. Many of the species we work with are locality specific.(I'll explain. Certain species have color, patterns or other morphological differences which make them unique or identifiable to a specific geographic area.) In many cases the only specimens from a specific area are those that were collected from the wild before that area was developed or the environment was so drastically changed that they no longer exist. A good example is the lower Keys form of the Red Rat Snake(Rosy Rat) We have specimens from about half of the historic range. Before the 1950's this was considered a specific sub-species. The problem is that this species no longer exists in the wild as a Lower Keys specific recognizable sub-species.(There are more taxonomic arguements there...) The reason for this is two fold. One, with the introduction of progress came the need for "landscaping". With the ornamental plants came "mainland" red rats snakes. These are larger, different colored, patterned etc. etc. These specimens have intergrated with the "Keys" population and created a hybrid. Two, many of the areas(Upwards of 70%) no longer have any true rosy's or all red rat snakes have been extripated due to development. We have collected specimens for years from these areas. We keep detailed records of where they come from. We only breed specimens to each other that come from the exact locality. Again, many of these no longer exist in the wild. If these programs and collection of specimens were not initiated in the wild years ago....many would not exist. Also, 1.1 is not a viable gene pool when it comes to some species. Therefore, a group sizable enough to develop a genetically diverse group is needed. Hence the collection of more than 1 specimen. When the opportunity arises we still take time to go to specific areas to collect a few more specimens that might match the specific form from a given locality. If they exist......This particular form has a commercially bred comparison, the hypo red rat snake. The hypos were derived from rosy's. They have selectively bred geberation after generation until they no longer resemble the origional form. Obviously, the locality specific specimens we work with are not worth what the hypo's are. Therfore, we obviously have not done this for the money. We have done this to save a specific morph or species/sub-species. Now......If we had waited and not collected specimens when we did we would not have exact locality breeding groups that represent historical populations. In this case it is impossible to release the neonates back into the wild even if we wanted to...It's all concrete and shopping malls! If we follow your argument then they should have been left to be bulldozed out of existence! Also, as has been mentioned, it is not recommended that specimens wether C.B. or W.C. be released into a new location. (Plenty of reasons but, I won't go into them here.) In the case of our planned release of some of the Nerodia specimens...In that particular location water snakes have not existed there for at least 30 years. The man made retention/wetlands area has no current population that can be affected. Therefore, a release here is a viable option. (Oh, did I mention that you should ask before you make judgements???? Oh, YES I DID!) Now, we have another statement that was incorrect. It was mentioned that (By lowrider) a captive bred specimen will not do well if released into the wild. This is untrue. Herps are "hardwired" so to speak, differently than mammals, birds etc. For example snakes are not taught by their parents to feed, avoid predators, mate etc. etc. They operate totally on "hardwired" instinct. We would not have the problem with introduced exotic species here in Florida if that were the case. However, in the case of commercially produced color morphs, they may not survive since they do not resemble the natural patterns of their wild caught relatives. Alex Pan....I like your quote. You should read it AGAIN! "....The wild animal have a tendency of keeping it's balance,and did so over millions of years before humans came." YES, BEFORE HUMANS CAME!!!!!!!!!!!! Either you live in the city and only see animals in your local zoo or small park or you live in an area that has no one for 50 miles or more??? Here, it's a different story. We have 7000 people per week that move to Florida. We do not collect in protected areas or areas that are not in danger of future habitat modification or development. Even in the parks I see mans impact on the environment. Reduced water levels due to drainage modification, environmental extremes brought about by habitat changes, destruction of the environment by unscrupulous off-road vehicle use(This does not include everyone) etc. etc. When I was collecting cottonmouths we traveled through a park area(Not collecting there) and we came across a cottonmouth that was still alive BUT, it had just been chopped up with a machete! Gee, if that had been a specimen that was collected at least it or it's progeny could have gone on to produce more specimens in captivity or educate the public. IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DEAD! Why not jump on these people! As I mentioned there was an area of the highway with hundreds of dead water snakes. Why not criticize the drivers or a state that feels funding is better slated to the big popular furry animals Also, population densities for herps are much different in the south. Particularly when it comes to species like water snakes, ribbons, garters etc. During one study in S. Florida along a 5 mile stretch, water snakes were found to have a population density in the thousands. (I'd have to look up the specifics so don't quote me directly) You also, want to argue the "Right to collect or take snakes from the wild". Well waht gives you the right to own any being? (A whole entire argument in itself!) It has already been mentioned that some species should not be collected. Many do not do well in captivity due to specific diets or enviromental needs. I totally agree with this. However, if a person has a project and is working to find out how to fill these needs....obviously they will have to be taken out of the wild. Obviously it would entail collecting more than one specimen. Now....Do we collect specimens now and learn what we can, make our mistakes now or do we wait until there are only a handful left in the wild and we cannot afford to make mistakes! I was going to go into the other argument about how many preserved dead specimens we need in museum collections as well....But, this is getting long and that would be another argument to take up another page!!! LOL's!

[AlexPan]

herpetological,

I agree with you 100% that collecting specimens is very important and that it had helped before.

But i guess you have missed my point, like i said before, i am by all mean not against people keeping snakes and wild specimens, ONLY IF they do not exist in captivity already! I am by no means saying go and let the snakes get bulldozed over! All i'm trying to say is, if the certain area is NOT under any threat do being constructed over, then take the species only that do not exist in captivity!

[JuliusSqueezer]

I think taking one or two now and then is a non issue....driving up and down the roads filling trash cans with cornsnakes or something is just all wrong though. Most snakes taken from the wild at least by anyone I herp with are taking them more from yards and off busy streets at night where if left there, by morning they would be a greasy spot with crows picking at it. Most of what I "take" from the native wildlife are either calls to come get a ratsnake out of a basement or someone was kind enough to do that part for me and leave it at my door. Most of these are wormsnakes, ringnecks and dekayii...nasty little bug eaters. Most of them are probably still happily rooting around under my shrubs outside.

I took a grey ratsnake last year from way out in the middle of nowhere at last year's camping trip because the park rangers gave BWSmith a wish list for their display. I brought them the ratsnake and a copperhead. They were for educational purposes and I think the cause for that will do more for the snakes than that one particular snake living in the wild.

BW has another grey ratsnake I took in that I scraped off the interstate in Alabama one night with a prolapsed cloaca and several broken ribs. I kept him for a year rehabbing him and turned him over to Brian's educational program. That snake can never be released. He also has a Black ratsnake that I plucked out of someone's basement and there was no place near by to release it and the weather was getting cold fast. Now I have another black ratsnake from a similar removal that seems to be a hybrid from a corn x black mating...and I seem to be stuck with him lol...

Kingsnakes around here aren't shy and I have taken countless kings that were seconds from being on the ouchy end of a hoe.

What I am getting at is...trust me...a LOT of what we take, we have to or they die. The examples I gave are just a couple of random recent rescues...I have taken hundreds over the years and I'm sure Brian has too.

I rarely keep anything I catch but sometimes I do. here in Georgia the laws are weird and if you want a cornsnake or any nonven native species, you get a permit and go catch them because it is illegal to sell them. Native hots are legal without permit. But you can't just go to a petco and pick up a canebrake or a pygmy. Releasing back to the wild is seldom an option unless there is a safe place for them really close to where they were caught. Studys have shown that snakes released even a mile or two from where they were caught seldom survive a year....maybe 20% is a rough estimate. But to most people, I suppose out of site out of mind is the cliche` of the day. It feels good to release an animal back to the wild. But it feels really bad if you do it and know it's odds of survival are near nill.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh...Alex...another thing to consider...There is a huge difference in taking a snake in anywhere in Canada and one in Georgia where BW and I live. Down here they are everywhere. The eastern Box turtles that you guys pay 200 bucks for....I see about 10 or so a day in the summer time without looking for them. sliders and painted turtles...I might get muddy a little but I could easily fill an order for a thousand or so turtles for someone if I had the urge in a weekend....maybe even a day lol. I just don't think down here that some kid wanting to keep a kingsnake he caught is ever going to put a dent in the kiingsnake population here.

[SCReptiles]

You continue to change your argument and back off from the position you took to begin with, but either way you are still wrong. We (collectors) started this hobby and you think you should demonize us with board pointless statements. Look man, go hug all the tress you want and vote for the Canadian version of the Democratic Party, but don’t keep snakes if you are so opposed to removing them from the wild. None of us come over to the corn snake forum and ridicule you, so I, for one, expect the same from you. If you got a question, ask it. But knock off your ridiculous statements and threats to call the police.

[Mustangrde1]

Every one, preserve nature! Leave it the way you found it! NEVER take anything from the wild!

I agree with you 100% that collecting specimens is very important and that it had helped before.

Alex which of these three statements do you wish to go with. A says { NEVER TAKE } B says you say its ok but only from the past collectors or for new species. You cant have it both ways either its NEVER or its OK!

You guys mentioned that it is good to take them from the wild if there is over population. Well wrong again! the wild animals have a tendency of keeping its balance, and did so for millions of years before humans came!

Before making statements such as the above one try some research. Species that have suffered and would have been seriously declined or even been lost without mans intervention are vast. Where man has caused most of these problems Man also has solved many of them to the best of our abilities to date.

If you want to learn then ask questions. But making threats towards people are foolish especially when you obviously know nothing about the laws. I would also bet you know very little about conservation work from your statements.

[Julliet]

sigh.....Sorry I am just getting caught up on everything due to work. Now Alex..if you reread my post you will find that I said that they had to be thinned out....due to Human Developement of the land. Now if you wish to allow the animals to reclaim that land then I am sure they would eventually repopulate it as long as we stayed the hell away. Shame is there are subspecies and species lost every day to human developement of the natural habitat. Those that are now extinct due to our carelessness with nature.

As far as my statement about you rereleasing your particular snakes....please forgive me that was called sarcasm, the finer point of which does seem to elude some people.

as far as rereleasing some specimans back into the wild. the area I have done so with sustained the same species prior to thier extinction in this area due to developement. I check them periodically ( and they come to visit) and they do seem to be doing well. I would not have introduced something which would not be indigenous ( forgive me I don't have spell check on this thing) to my area nor that would not have prey on to which survive. When they first started to develope this area I had a pregnant water snake show up and invite herself into my home. I gave her refuge and a good meal, she repaid me with 54 babies since water snakes are not quite what I am equiped to comfortably keep for long periods it made sense to release these little guys back to a lake area close by that developement had stopped on for monetary reasons. The snakes had been cleared however underbrush had started a comeback and there was plenty of insect larve for the babies to feed on. I am happy to say I now often see these watersnakes where before you could walk the 40 plus acres and never see a snake. I wouldn't release a mamba here although it probably here in south florida survive with our temprate climates.

Alot of the snakes that are rescues in fact most can never be rereased into the wild. Ray is right and to introduce a foreign pathogen would probably wipe out entire colonies. Much like man does.

However prior to making inflamatory statements I would suggest you go back a few nature refuges and wildlife refuges and talk to people read a bit and maybe learn what true conservation is about . we all have to be here on this planet it is time we start learning to be responcible for it's well being.
Strip mining , burn off, and continual planting has caused massive damage to the atmosphere and the ecology. Since we need to farm for food ....and I am sure you like that car you drive and to stay warm at night, we need to also learn how to replace what we use by replanting and allowing nature to reclaim what it can. It is only common sense to do so. We can never erradicate the damage that past generations have caused due to ignornace and greed, we can see to it that the gifts that are left that nature gives up continue to survive.

[Mustangrde1]

Barbarian report for Chuck.... You left 3 days to early Friday was great on the prairie. 1 Mocc 2 pig 4 red rat 2 yellow rat 16 ribbons 3 dekays and some of them venomous tropper collecting garters.

[edh]

Hello,

I have absolutely no intention of offending anybody. I am just curious about all the people catching snakes from the wild and keeping them in captivity.

I mean what do you do with them?? Are they for breeding, selling, or just for the fun of it?

Let me point out that looking for snakes (even here in Holland, where we have 3 species of snakes, and only 1 venomous species) and taking pictures of it, is one of my favorite past times.

I imagine that there are different laws concerning collecting snakes in the USA, for instance collecting Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia is not allowed, but what about Eastern Diamondbacks or other species wich (I understand) are also endangered because of loss in habitat??? Is it legal to catch them or do you need permits???

I understand that some people catch them to protect numorous morfological variations, but I am not aware off endangered morfological mutated red rat snakes, ribbonsnakes, ot whatever that are not being bred in captivity? Please correct me if I am wrong. So why catch them?? I mean red ratsnakes is one of the most popular snakes in Europe and by far the most of them is CB.

CB reptiles are always preferred over here (except by most animal traders), even if they are more expensive. I can only imagine importing WC specimens of species that are not being bred yet, or are in desperate need off new blood (eg Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia)!

I must admit that I did not read all the previous posts, so if it has been mentioned before: I apologise (also for all my spelling errors!).

Again: no harm intended!

Cheers,

Erik

[Mustangrde1]

Erik. with species such as ribbons and redrats people do like to get new fresh blood in their collections and I have had many people ask me for fresh wild caughts. There is certainly no shortage of them and keep in mind there are not as many collecting as one would think. Also I only collect what i concider to be topnotch specimens and only what i have need for. Many of the animals i see i wont collect just move off the road. Also another reason is people need feeder snakes for other species.

Breeding some of the other species is also a reason for collection I am trying to get a large enough base of Coral snakes together to try captive breeding of them.

As to Easterns Diamonds. Collecting from areas where houses are being built at incredable rates of speed is more of saving the animal. Most people would just as well kill it as let it alone. However collecting from National parks or other areas protected from human incouchment is something i personally wouldnt do. Its a shame when you see one of these truly amazing animals hacked up by some home owner simply because they were in its yard if you get my meaning.

[cobraman]

" but what about Eastern Diamondbacks or other species wich (I understand) are also endangered because of loss in habitat??? Is it legal to catch them or do you need permits???"

Erik, Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnakes are NOT endangered or protected. They are on a list called "species of special concern". And a venomous reptiles permit is required to have them or any other venomous snake in Florida (where Scott is).



"CB reptiles are always preferred over here (except by most animal traders), even if they are more expensive."


There would never have been such a thing as "captive born" if someone had not have collected a wild caught pair in the first place.

Blessings,
Ray Hunter

[edh]

Erik. with species such as ribbons and redrats people do like to get new fresh blood in their collections and I have had many people ask me for fresh wild caughts. There is certainly no shortage of them and keep in mind there are not as many collecting as one would think.

Mustangrde1: Ik can relate to this argument if it concerns endangered species. For instance I would like to obtain fresh blood for my Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia :D : kind off impossible!!!!

But I can imagine that over the years a lot of different bloodlines of redrats and ribbons have been caught, so that refreshment is not necessary. I am aware of Ribbons that have inben bred for the 12 th generation, without visible malfunctions.

But I can imagine that's just fun collecting snakes when it is legal, maybe comparable with going fishing???

Breeding some of the other species is also a reason for collection I am trying to get a large enough base of Coral snakes together to try captive breeding of them.

I find this to be a good reason for catching snakes.

Erik, Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnakes are NOT endangered or protected. They are on a list called "species of special concern". And a venomous reptiles permit is required to have them or any other venomous snake in Florida (where Scott is).

Ray. Thanks for the update!! I am afraid I have let myself be misled by various television shows ( some episodes off National Geographic for instance). How does you permit system work in Florida?? I am interested in learning about as many different legislation systems as possible.

There would never have been such a thing as "captive born" if someone had not have collected a wild caught pair in the first place.

You are right! But is catching snakes still necessary when species are easily bred in captivity (considering my previous arguments)???

Cheers,

Erik

[Mustangrde1]

Erik. All you need to do is go to various states websites for their Game and Fish dept and you can find most laws. Fishing is a good example of snake catching. Some of it is Catch n Release some of it is catch and keep. Most the ribbons,dekays and smaller ratsnakes i catch go to the catch and keep for my corals that wont take pinkies. It only takes a few though so the others get catch and release. Why pay 7 to 15 dollars for feeders when i can get them free.

[anacondaman]

we all share one thing in common in this site....we love herps.....this wonderful hobby was started by people like Mustangrde1 who go out and collect..... im sure Must. only collects those snakes that are either common or he has a permit for...or he wouldnt post it....and if he did collect a snake of threatened value he would release soon afterwords in the same area.....the fact of the matter is....if ur against Mustang. then ur against the hobby......and until you have no snake, dont post these hypacritical views.

my 2 cents

adam

[edh]

we all share one thing in common in this site....we love herps.....this wonderful hobby was started by people like Mustangrde1 who go out and collect.....

Anacondaman: You are totally right!!! I certainly love herps! I also agree that people like Mustangrde1 intitiated our hobby al long time ago!

if ur against Mustang. then ur against the hobby......and until you have no snake, dont post these hypacritical views.

I find this to be a little bit strange post :( . How can I be against the hobby when I love to keep herps??? I am definetely not against anybody (except those who are in to venomoids or other "unnatural" things), but I will post my questions and arguments! I think it is very important to discuss a certain subject, not just take something for granted (just my humble opinion). At least that is the way I have learned a lot (and I am still learning).

Most the ribbons,dekays and smaller ratsnakes i catch go to the catch and keep for my corals that wont take pinkies

Mustangrde1: For the record: I am not judging you or anything, I am just curious!! As I said before I can relate to this reason perfectly. I am just wondering (SORRY): are you not afraid of cross infecting your Corals by feeding them WC snakes??

Just a thought: no harm intended! ;)

Erik

[Mustangrde1]

Erik i think adam was reffering to someone else whos post were less then hospitable.

As to my coral I dont worry about it to much as first i freeze for 30 days anything reptillian they are going to get fed. Luckily right now only 1 of my three corals is still refusing pinkies.

Hey everyone who keeps and shares knowledge about herp keeping is very valuable to the hobby be it the old times who passes on breeding knowledge or the field biologist who makes sure the wild stock is still viable and thriving to the new comming kid with a zest for a million questions. Personally its the newcommer that benifits us most by challenging us to find better ways or answers we may not thought of to his questions. We all areimportant to the hobby.

Erik no offense taken your post are intelligant and honest.

[edh]

Erik i think adam was reffering to someone else whos post were less then hospitable.

OEPS :o !! In that case I apologise to Anacondaman (Adam)!

As to my coral I dont worry about it to much as first i freeze for 30 days anything reptillian they are going to get fed. Luckily right now only 1 of my three corals is still refusing pinkies.

That is a good result!! I hope the breeding program will go as planned!!!

Thanks for your patience and profound answers!

Erik :)

[anacondaman]

nothin to apologize for man
lol

adam

[anacondaman]

truly...im only against one thing in this hobby.....and thats when snakes get neglected (not saying any of you do that)..... people buy snakes...people collect snakes....as long as its legal and the reptiles are taken care of (Which im sure Mustang, and everyone else does) then we all should be able to live in a happy reptile world:)....now everybody grab hands and yell i love snakes:)

adam