What kind of Pine is this?

[MouseKilla]

I've had this guy for quite a while now but I still can't figure out what he is apart from being a Pine of some kind. I got him from a pet store and got a great deal because the owner of the store thought he was "mean" and didn't think anyone would want him.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2511pine1-med.jpg

It's a bit of a dark, crappy pic but this guy is very active and to catch him being still is the best I can hope for.

Turns out he's not "mean" at all but he'll tail-rattle when you touch him at first and I've had him hiss the world's loudest hiss when annoyed. He's about 5 feet long now and at feeding time he hits so hard he nearly puts the rat through the side of the enclosure.

If anyone could tell me what specific type of Pine he is it will help me out when I search for a female to pair him up with for next year.

Thanks.

[Katt]

Looks like a real pretty northern pine to me.

[ChokeOnSmoke]

I would say Florida Pine but thats strictly a guess
sweet snake whatever it is

[gonesnakee]

I was going to guess Northern too, not that I'd really know. I'd take Katt's word for it though. I used to have a Southern? patternless & he would hiss up a storm! I didn't think snakes could hiss that loud LOL He was like 2 feet, but he sounded like he should be 20 LOL All show though, would shake his tail like crazy, but it was as simple as reaching in & picking him up. Very intimidating though if you don't realize that they are all show 9 times outta 10. Watch for that 10th time though Heh Heh Good luck with it. Mark

[MouseKilla]

Going by the pics I've seen (very few) and the Pines I've seen in person (even fewer) Northern was my best guess too, though the others I've seen all had black on them. This guy doesn't have any black at all, not that it necessarily makes a difference.

[AHLizards]

It's a northern pine.. nice pattern on it.

[Scotty Allen]

That's a textbook Florida Pinesnake, Pituophis melanoleucus mugitus.

[Jayson]

According to both of my field guides it a florida pine, but i personally am not an expert.

[MouseKilla]

Well it can't be Northern and from Florida at the same time can it? LOL!

Melanoleucus mugitus or melanoleucus melanoleucus?

If this guy is textbook anything I'd sure like to see the textbook!lol! I'll have to know for sure before I breed him, I just can't seem to track down any good resourses for pics.

[Scotty Allen]

"I've had this guy for quite a while now ..........." What did you buy it as? First field guide that comes to mind is the Peterson Field Guide Series -- Reptiles and Amphibians of Eastern and Central North America. There's also the Audubon Series of Field Guides, both have excellent illustrations of your pinesnake. Try this link from the University of Florida:

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/fl-guide/Pituophismmugitus.htm

[DataRipper]

Florida pine..

[MouseKilla]

That was a great link, thanks! I think you're right too, the snake in the picture there is by far the closest I've ever seen.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

I am saying it is a Florida Pine...by far. Looks like all the Florida Pines I have seen, and not like many Northerns.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Holy moly, I'm not a Pine fan, but that is a COOOOOL snake!! :D

[MouseKilla]

Sounds like we're coming to a concensus now, which is a good thing for me.

As I said about buying him though, I got him from a pet store and the owner didn't want to go near him. He didn't even have this snake on display at the time but I had spent enough time and money at this store to be able to hang out in the back room and look at everything that they had. I'm not sure whether it was the guy at the store that suggested that he was a Northern Pine or whether I came up with that on my own based on the very few pictures and discription I could find. All the store knew was that he was a pine, they didn't know the age or sex or much of anything useful.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. Now does anyone know where I can get a female? lol! Sounds like they're protected in Florida.

[MouseKilla]

Here's a head shot. Unfortunately I had to turn the picture quality down a lot to make it fit in my gallery.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2511Im001823-med.jpg

[Stockwell]

Are you sure it's a male... ?

[MouseKilla]

Sure as I can be. I had someone experienced probe him so until I get a definite female that's the best I can do I guess. I think it will probably take some work to find another one of either sex unless one of the colubrid freaks around here has a connection.

[AHLizards]

Florida pines are more colorful than that, they have more of a cream tinge if iam not mistaken.. That really looks northern to me, but if not, i stand corrected!

[Katt]

Ok, I'm going to have to agree with southern actually. I keep thinking all southerns are patternless (like our pair) and forget that they have pattern too! Maybe that's why Mark thought the same as me!! I'venever seen a normal patterned southern.

Hehe, Vanan's got a nothern pine, you'd think I know better!!

Definitely a nice looking snake!!

[ChaosCat]

that's a gorgeous Northern pine!

-cat

[Crazycorn]

Looks just like a red phase southern. ;)

[MouseKilla]

Oh God. I'm gonna cry.

[Vanan]

Accoding to the Pituophis page, the only differing scalation is the subcaudals.

melanoleucus:
Subcaudals: 50-79

mugitus:
Subcaudals: 28-33 for females, 46-62 for males.

So, unless your snake is a female, (which it's not), scalation would be of help. Guess you'll have to keep crying! :D

[crimsonking]

They are protected here. to a point. You can have 1 per person of wc, but albinos are not protected. Normals cannot be bought/sold/traded here.Most southern (FL.) pines do not have "black" black if you get me. While northerns tend to have more stark black. Both are quite variable, however. FL. pines can be very bright and high contrast or quite "muddy" Yours sure looks to me from that photo to be mugitus. Hey, I'm no expert. Throw into the equation the possibility of an intergrade and it's anyone's guess without data. Guessing you're in Canada, it's also more likely to be a northern! lol!
:Mark

[crimsonking]

David, (Crazycorn) PLEASE don't go there!
:Mark

[MouseKilla]

Well if it's to remain a mystery maybe I'll look into one of those crazy albinos. Those are just amazing.

[Simon Sansom]

Hi MK;

To get good pics of active snakes you need to place the animal under an opaque object such as a bucket or a bowl for a few minutes, get set to take the shot, then quickly remove the cover and shoot.

The quick transition from darkness to light usually startles the snake for a moment, and you have time for at least one or two shots of a motionless subject.

Cheers!

Simon R. Sansom

[Simon Sansom]

Oh, by the way, for what it's worth I would bet that your snake's a Southern Pine.

Simon R. Sansom

[MouseKilla]

Thanks Simon, I actually trapped him in a cardboard box yesterday to try to get him all in the frame at the same time and it worked fairly well. I just need to make room in the gallery before I can post any more.

Your best guess is most welcome though it looks like I'm going to have to resort to scale counts to solve this puzzle. I'll need to wait for him to shed to get that info though because there is just no way I could ever pin this guy down long enough to get that done.

[Jonathan Crowe]

That's definitely a Florida (southern) pine.

[MouseKilla]

Just wondering what makes you sure... any comparison pics or anything like that?

[Jonathan Crowe]

I've seen too many of each; after a while you sort of get to know them by sight. Florida pines tend not to have a strongly defined pattern up front; the blotches start to kick in midway down the body. Also, the contrast is less: with the northern pines I've encountered, the blotches are very dark and defined.

But then I only keep black pines; they're a little easier to tell apart!

[MouseKilla]

I tend to agree based on the descriptions and pictures I've been able to dig up in my recent search. Unfortunately, I haven't seen enough of either ssp. with my own eyes to be absolutely certain especially since both are known to be highly variable. The more I look though the more convinced I am that the snake I have is a southern. I'll make a more informed judgement after his next shed when I can do scale counts.

[Simon Sansom]

Anyone got a pic of a positively identified Northern Pine that they could post so that we could try and examine the differences...??

I'm looking at all my references, and the evidence points towards Southern Pine Snake. I'm checking out some photos of each and comparing them to your pics. The "nominal" Northern Pine Snake is definitely much darker and more "contrasty" compared to yours. The difference is particularly noticeable around the facial area. The Northern seems to have much more prominent dark vertical markings on the labial (lip) scales.
Easy to tell the difference, if you ask me, once you see pics of 'em side by side.

Cheers!

Simon