Don't jump on me or anything but what is a venomoid??

[creepiecrawlie]

I have been looking for the question for a long time but never found it. I used to think it was an Elapid but is it a hybrid or something???

[crazykeeper]

It is a venomous snake that has had a duct or gland removal,so they say it is not capable of producing venom,but that is not always true.

[MsTT]

A badly abused animal that has been hacked up and mutilated so that someone can have a really cool pet cobra without bothering to learn any safety skills.

http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoid-faq.html

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

A badly abused animal that has been hacked up and mutilated so that someone can have a really cool pet cobra without bothering to learn any safety skills.

Eh..

[creepiecrawlie]

Oh okay thanks! How much training do you need and where do you get it.

[Mustangrde1]

A human with their arms and legs cut off. OOppss me bad that is what I wish would happen to these hackers.

Venomoid: A once venomous animal having gone through surgical procedure to remove its venom gland and venom duct. This is done to make the snake safe for handling and working with.
Many of these animals suffer greatly from having this surgical operation performed by unlicensed individuals without the proper medical care needed.

Venomoid Hacker: One who seriously needs to be bitten in the privates by a nice big Gabby with a follow up bite from a Russells.

[m1k3_88]

Originally posted by creepiecrawlie
Oh okay thanks! How much training do you need and where do you get it.
Are you saying you want a venemoid:confused:

[Mustangrde1]

Try no training and DO NOT GET ONE. Contributing money to purchase these animals only incourages the mortality and pain and suffering of others. Get some years under your belt with a venomous keeper and get the real deal. Why have a snake that no longer looks like the animal you wanted in the first place. Venomoids have as a rule seriously concaved/sunken in heads where the venom glands once were. No longer do they look like what they once were.

[MsTT]

Let me show you some very, very sad photos of badly abused mambas that some %$#@! attempted to crudely defang.

http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/mamba/

It is abusive and cruel to cripple a wild animal so you can keep it as a pet. It is much better to work hard and acquire the skills and the secure housing to keep them properly. You can start reading about safe venomous snake handling here:

http://www.snakegetters.com/demo

No web page can really teach you all the skills you need, so try to find someone near you who can be your mentor. Or volunteer at a zoo or wildlife center to get your training.

[Smulkin]

I used to live in India and was fascinated by the "snake charmers" with the flutes and baskets full of cobras . . until I got close enough to see that they had SEWN THEIR MOUTHS SHUT - and would use the snake until it starved to death until simply replacing it. I just about beat the crap out of the guy when I recognized that, and the thought still turns my stomach. Gah.

[Mustangrde1]

Does anyone happen to have a full head shot of a venomoid gabbon from above next to a hot gabby for compare

[creepiecrawlie]

No I don't want to get a venomoid I was asking about normal venomous.

[Mustangrde1]

Awe ok.... What species and what experiance do you have with hots?

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

If you would like, I would gladly help you out.
Xain

[creepiecrawlie]

I have never had a hot before. I have wanted one for a long time though. I used to think that I would never want to own one but they are just to interesting. If I started I would most likely want to start with a copperhead or rear-fanged snake. Yes I would love your help KrokadilyanGuy3!!!

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Very well then. You're in Broken Bow, Right?
Xain

[creepiecrawlie]

I live in Broken Arrow.

[creepiecrawlie]

By the way if I do get a venomous I would most likely never hold it unless I have to. Just to limit the chances of being envenomated.

[YummyCdnMale]

Buy yourself a flute and cobra

[cobraman]

Scott, this string of e=mails should take some of the heat off one of the well known hackers, right???

The following is an e-mail from someone that bought some Rhno Vipers and had them devenomized. My responce to his e-mail to me is posted as well. Hope it all makes sence to youm his e-maol to me sounded a little fishy, almost like it was designed or prompted by the hacker.

***hint: start at the beginning of the below string of e-mails by going all the way dow to the bottom of this post :)



From: <rayhunter@bellsouth.net>
To: <turtsandtorts@aol.com>
Sent: Friday April 09, 2004 4:45 AM

"Steve, you will need to get with Ricky for the pics. I will forward a copy of this
to him for you. The rest of your last e-mail sounds like a paid political
advertisement for Kevin's shady venomoid practice to me, but for the sake of
the poor animals, I hope the procedure went as well as he claimed. From all
I have heard, that is certainly a first for him. If he really is getting
better at this, perhaps he should quit the Burger Bin, and become a real
vet, if for no other reason, than to make what he does legal. I will be
happy to share your last e-mail with the rest of the concerned herping
community, so they will not be as hostile towards him about his practice. It
is good to know that he has finally incorporated the use of pain meds and
antibiotics in his work (presumably obtained legally).
Please Call 772-215-7625 if I can help you, or answer any questions you
have.

Be Blessed!
Ray Hunter
(772) 215-7625







----- Original Message -----
From: <turtsandtorts@aol.com>
To: <rayhunter@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Please reply...my other email is down..msg from Steve Clark


Please send me the pix of the rhinos again...can't find them! We had a
problem where I didn't have an airbill and they sat in the airport for 2
days, but Kevin said they are all fine and eating rat pups already. He said
he had bad transactions with you guys in the past, but he said he doesn't
know if it was an isolated issue, as these snakes are "bangin" in quality
and health. I'll have them back as venomoids saturday, they handled surgury
well and are all feeding again! Damn good procedure when 12 of 12 survive
flawlessly! I just need to keep them on their antibiotics (gotta keep them
clean and uninfected) and they will be fine! Ironically I just had my
wisdom teeth removed...I would imagine the pain and recovery is
similar...not bad! The little rhinos got better pain killers than me
though! They get lidocaine hcl, and I got tylenol!


Steve

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:11am, Ray Hunter wrote:
>Steve, I can not get through on that number either. You need to call me
before we ship. Ricky got the money, but we need to talk to you before we
ship. I am pasting a copy of the last e-mail I sent to your other e-mail
address.
>
>
>Steve, I have left you numerous phone messages, and sent you several
e-mails in reference to your order for rhino vipers from Ricky Duffield at
Exotic Reptiles Jungle. All of my efforts over the past three days have gone
unanswered by you. I spoke with Ricky today, and he is willing to go through
with the shipment to Smith in OR, but there will be no 'arrive alive'
guarantee if the animals are shipped to Mr. Smith. I have already outlined
the reason for this on one of the many messages I left on your answering
machine. If you opt to have the snake sent directly to you in PA, then we
will resume our guarantee, at which time you can forward them to Smith if
you chose, but at your own risk, and not ours. Mr. Smith has a reputation
(with many shippers, not just us) of questionable claims of DOA's, so I will
not ship any animals to him. I also have a problem with his qualifications
(or lack of) to legally and properly perform venomoid surgery on venomous
snakes. I think that Ricky was unaware of your intentions to have the snakes
you purchased shipped to Kevin Smith until after you sent your payment, so
he is willing to ship, but there will be no live arrival guarantee if the
animals are shipped to Kevin Smith. >Please Call 772-215-7625 if I can help
you, or answer any questions you have.
>
>Be Blessed!
>Ray Hunter

[Gary O]

I have never had a hot before. I have wanted one for a long time though. I used to think that I would never want to own one but they are just to interesting. If I started I would most likely want to start with a copperhead or rear-fanged snake. Yes I would love your help KrokadilyanGuy3

Some rear fanged are more venomous....Boomers come to mind. Man do I like Boomers lol........

I say find someone that you can work with and get to know your way around hots before bringing one home. This is a big step in the herp world but it also can be a great one!

Had to edit to out in the quote lol. I did not notice this was on page two

[Mustangrde1]

Please send me the pix of the rhinos again...can't find them! We had a problem where I didn't have an airbill and they sat in the airport for 2 days, but Kevin said they are all fine and eating rat pups already. He said he had bad transactions with you guys in the past, but he said he doesn't know if it was an isolated issue, as these snakes are "bangin" in quality and health. I'll have them back as venomoids saturday, they handled surgury well and are all feeding again! Damn good procedure when 12 of 12 survive
flawlessly! I just need to keep them on their antibiotics (gotta keep them clean and uninfected) and they will be fine! Ironically I just had my wisdom teeth removed...I would imagine the pain and recovery is similar...not bad! The little rhinos got better pain killers than me though! They get lidocaine hcl, and I got tylenol!

Ok I have some problems with this E-mail.

1. March 28th was your first letter to him about your concerns Ray when were they actually shipped?

2. On April 8th he confirms they recieved them finally after a two day wait in the airport. That to me would say he recived them on the 5th or 6th of April correct?

3. thats 8 days right?

I didn't have an airbill and they sat in the airport for 2
days, but Kevin said they are all fine and eating rat pups already.

4 He States they ate rat pups already from my reading before surgery.

So now if he recieved them on the 5th or 6th then performed surgery on say the 7th or 8th How in the name of all that slithers are they Eating again after surgery so fast. Not to mention within less then a week of a prior feed.

I'll have them back as venomoids saturday, they handled surgurywell and are all feeding again!


The little rhinos got better pain killers than me
though! They get lidocaine hcl, and I got tylenol!

Ok so how long does Lidocaine work? and how often is he administerring it .

Something does not sound right about that. And where is that thread where Kevin said he does not do the surgery or more to the point would not admit to it.

[Mustangrde1]

but Kevin said they are all fine and eating rat pups already. He said he had bad transactions with you guys in the past, but he said he doesn't know if it was an isolated issue, as these snakes are "bangin" in quality and health. I'll have them back as venomoids saturday, they handled surgury well and are all feeding again! Damn good procedure when 12 of 12 survive

Um Is Kevin a licensed Vet In OREGON...... Dont think so..... Ray below is the links you requested as well as the difinitive law. Enjoy yourself :)


Chapter 686 — Veterinarians; Veterinary Technicians


2001 EDITION

GENERAL PROVISIONS

686.010 Definitions. As used in this chapter, unless the context requires otherwise:

(1) "Animal medical problem" means any wound, injury, disease, discomfort, abnormality, deformity or defect of an animal.

(2) "Board" means the Oregon State Veterinary Medical Examining Board.

(3) "Veterinary college, or veterinary department of a university or college, of good standing and repute," means any veterinary college or department of a university or college, legally organized, which is approved and placed on the accredited list by the board, but in any event the accreditation requirements of the board shall be no more restrictive than the accreditation standards of the American Veterinary Medical Association. [Amended by 1967 c.334 §1; 1975 c.619 §1; 1987 c.651 §1]

686.020 License required to practice veterinary medicine; title and abbreviations usable by licensees. Except as otherwise provided by this chapter, no person shall:

(1) Practice veterinary medicine, surgery or dentistry, in this state unless the person holds a valid license issued by the Oregon State Veterinary Medical Examining Board and the license is not expired, revoked or suspended at the time of practice.

(2) Affix or append any letters to the name of the person, indicating a degree in medicine, such as V.S., V.D., D.V.S., M.D.C., D.M.C., D.V.M., or use the word doctor, veterinary, veterinarian, professor, animal doctor, animal surgeon, or any abbreviation or combination thereof of similar import in connection with the name of the person, or any trade name with which the person is interested, in the conduct of any occupation or profession pertaining to the diagnosis or treatment of animal diseases or conditions mentioned in this chapter, unless such person is legally entitled to use such designation. [Amended by 1987 c.651 §2]

686.030 Acts constituting the practice of veterinary medicine. A person practices veterinary medicine, surgery or dentistry when the person does any of the following in this state:

(1) Diagnoses, treats or prognosticates an animal medical problem.

(2) Prescribes or administers a drug, medicine or treatment for the prevention, cure, amelioration, correction or modification of an animal problem or for euthanasia.

(3) Induces anesthesia in an animal.

(4) Performs a surgical or dental operation or procedure upon an animal.

(5) Performs an embryo transfer or pregnancy, sterility or fertility evaluation.

(6) Gives an instruction or demonstration regarding the acts described in this section, except as an agent or employee of this state or of the federal government.

(7) Advertises or represents in any manner, publicly or privately, that the person is willing to do any of the acts described in this section. [Amended by 1987 c.651 §2a]

And the wonderful quote of confirmation He does preform the surgery himself and unless he is licensed is a CRIME ...

No, youre wrong. people like me beacuse I make something that is deadly safe to handle. And I trained under Ritchy Ritch, and he is one of the best. It sounds like you are a teensy weensy jealus, but need to be, you too can learn how to make these snakes better, and make the big bucks. I can almost afford to quit my part time job at nights because of the money I make cuttin (as we call it in the trade).

Thanks for the welcome.
Kevin Smith

Thank you for your own words in type. This has been forwarded to Oregons DNR and veterinary licensing Board.
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/
http://www.ovmeb.state.or.us/

[Gregg M]

Looks like he hung himself with just enough rope.....LOL..... Cant wait to find out how much crap he is going to be in...... Good job Scott...... Wonder if we can get his little buddies as well..... I also think he hung his "mentor" also......

[Gregg M]

Look at what I found....LOL..... I thought 12 were done and all lived...... Oh and this is the same person that you were writting back and forth to Ray..... There is no pic of them in the add because you have not sent him the pics yet Ray.....LOL..... Oh and all of Kevins ads have been taken down.... I wonder why???? LOL

Hi,

I have some killer rhino viper venomoids for sale. I had 3 professionally done, and I am keeping one for myself.

These guys were captive bred and born in 2003, and have taken frozen and thawed prey since two weeks after their surgury was preformed.

Right now these guys are feeding on the frozen and thawed rat pups on a weekly basis, and are growing fast! These guys have some amazing color which is found only in this local of animals. These guys have bloodlines which may be traced back to Uganda (the Ituri forest).

These snakes have had the best of care. The surgury was preformed by a professional using the best gas anesthesia, antibiotics, and pain killers. These snakes have anatomically correct heads, and are not flattened or shrunken like those commonly seen for sale. They have no external scars, as the venom ducts were litigated from inside of the mouth, and closed with self dissolving sutures. They still have their venom glands in place, which maintains their head shape, but their venom ducts have been completely removed.

All animals have been tested, and have been proven not able to envenomate!

They only had the ducts removed..... This is a disaster waiting to happen.....

[Cruciform]

Lidocaine is a local, at least that's what it's been used for on me in the past. It has a short half-life too.

I'm not exactly sure how long it lasts, because I'm resistant to it, but it's not something you'd continue to give the snake after the surgery.

As to it's effectiveness... in most people it works fine. In me, it took 18 needles to my fingers and I still felt the stitches going in. For my wisdom tooth, they gave me seven or eight needles with no effect, and finally had to snap the tooth off and take out the roots one at a time.

If those snakes are going through anywhere near that kind of pain those bastards should be hung from hooks by their eyelids and kicked in the balls until they blink.


--edit for spelling error--

[Mustangrde1]

Kinda what i was thinking but i was curious more toward its effects on reptiles and duration it last. I know it only last about an hour on me when i get stitches so if it is short lived on reptiles it would seam to me that he would have to be medicating it every hour on the hour.

[cobraman]

Here is the latest e-mail I just got from Steve (I wonder how much Kevin pays Steve to send these e-mails???):

Yeah...I was glad to hear he has gotten better...he actually got a lot of experience from roadkill! He collected up snakes that died from street casualties, of various species, and hacked away at them in order to learn more about them and their workings. His mortality rate now is very low, and only about 1-2% at most die after the surgury from related complications...pretty good for snakes which are now always CB or well aclaimated for captivity.

Kevin has learned a lot from Rich, who has also gotten a lot better! I know 2 men who are vets in NY (licensed vets) as well, and they are amazingly good with the procedure...they do just as well as hots if not better!

Also, I got the photos from Rick...thanks a ton!

We will be doing business in the future, as I am thrilled by your service!

Take it easy,
Steve Clark

[Gregg M]

There are 0nly 3 vets in NY that I know of that will work with hots and none of them will do void surgery.....

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

I HATE all the #(@)#$(#%^! venemoid suporters! I hate the dentist, what do you think the snakes think about you!?!?!?!

Chris

[SCReptiles]

Are there any know long term captive voids? I mean like the 5 to 10 year range? I am interested to know if there are known long term effective on these snakes. I know the one case of Greg’s rescue that passed, even though it was kept exactly like his hots. I am wondering if there should be housing consideration, such as a high temp for digestion, for voids.

[Gary O]

I have heard of a few that was 2 or 3 years old but I forget where I read it.

But if you up the temps for digestion would that not cause other problems too?

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Are there any know long term captive voids? I mean like the 5 to 10 year range?

Apparently, many void collecters claim they have worked with them for a great deal of time. Here is a quote from another void thread (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29825&perpage=5&pagenumber=3) :

I work with a collection of venomoids. Many of them are going on 10+ years..without any ill effects.. did some snakes die....yeah..did many live as well..yes..

I highly doubt this person really knows what they have to say, and many seem to claim this general subject. I have never heard of any void living this long either, as they should be if these pro-void folks claims held any water.

[Mustangrde1]

Ok so how much is Kevin paying this guy or more to the point how much is he taking off his burger bin hack job price , for this guy to be his public relations officer. There is no way in hell he fed them twice once before surgery and once after. Does he think people are stupid. Although im am curious to how many snakes steve will actually recieve today?