View Full Version : Trip to Indonesia
Bighead
03-25-04, 05:04 AM
My brother is moving to (what used to be) Irian Jaya, Indonesia next spring. I haven't done a whole lot of field herping in the past, but my interest is growing. I will probably be visiting him when I go on my honeymoon in about 1.5 years (screw hawaii). Should I entertain the thought of importing anything? By then I will be living in the states, so keep that in mind. Also, I won't even consider dealing with hots, as I don't have any experience. Do any of you know of anything interesting I might start looking into?
I know that if I decide to do it, it will be expensive and lots of paperwork, etc, but I figured now is the time to start if I want to do this. Thanks for any help you might offer.
-Jordan
Bighead
03-26-04, 02:41 AM
I must say, I was expecting some emphatic, "Don't bother, you don't know what a pain or how expensive it we be" comments by now. Lol. What about bring back some IJCPs for fresh breeding stock or something?
AlexPan
03-26-04, 01:02 PM
Bighead, If i have understood you correctly, you want to catch some herpes and bring them to your house?
Well i am absolutely shocked! How can some one thinking of keeping wild animals as pets! I for one, am keeping snakes and soon starting to breed them to only fly back to California meet up with the scientist, and let them go to freedom after i'm finished checking for unwonted parasites and stuff.
We as herpers (atlest most of us i think) breed the animals to sell/give to other people so that no more animals will be taken from the wild!! No paper work will fix it, all paper work is you pay government money and they let you keep the animal!
We as herpers should think from the animal's point of view. I know every one here treats their pets really good, but still the animal which was taken from the wild is used to slider around for many miles, which i think very few people would have a chance to have such an exhibit for them.
I do encourage people to keep pets for many reasons, one of the reasons is, people population is growing, there for we destroy more and more forests, so by having snakes etc. as our pets, we help to preserve the animals for the future generations even if their natural habitats will be destroid.
The point i'm trying to make is, keep pets but NEVER EVER take anything from the wild. Paper work does not change the way the animals feels!
I don't think he meant taking them from the wild. I think he meant that he wanted to purchase them and wanted to know what procedures he needs to know of and what to do to bring them back.
Alex Pan your claim of letting captive bred snakes go into the wild is just as bad! Are you talking about Kingsnakes?
Without SERIOUS years of effort into a detailed relocation program, the chances are not one of your snakes will survive in the wild. The same parasites and things you will rid them of are some of the things that PROTECT wild snakes! Captive snakes being set free will quickly succumb to the parasites when left to eat wild prey suddenly. They will have no idea of the location, prey items, or flora and fauna that will be introduced internally to them.
I have yet to hear of successful captive bred snake release as there is no way to track them, I haven't even heard of HIGHLY credited establishments even trying this, let alone a civilian with limited resources and without a detailed plan or breeding program.
Marisa
AlexPan, you seem shocked that he would consider keeping "wild" animals, but snakes ARE wild animals, even when bred in captivity.
And I agree wholeheartedly with Marisa. A snake that has been bred and lived its whole life in captivity doesn't stand a chance of surviving in the wild. They may consider themselves to be great hunters, but the reality is that we feed them - they don't have to develop superior hunting skills. And ridding them of parasites prior to release is going to be a wasted effort as they will pick up parasites immediately after release into the wild - especially if they are lucky enough to be able to catch something to eat. Then, having no resistance to those parasites, they will become sick and die - if they don't become food for another predator first.
Yes, snakes are bred in captivity to avoid taking more specimens from the wild. But the idea has never been to release captive bred specimens back into the wild. That would be irresponsible.
AlexPan
03-26-04, 02:06 PM
Marisa,
I have being researching about the idea of releasing my California King snakes in the wild for 6 month know, and have aquared much knowledge. When i said i'm gonna get the scientist to take off the parasites etc, i mean not the parasites in particular, but all stuff which will come from canada BC that is not native in California so not to introduce anything new there.
Lots of people are sceptic but i'm am so sure of my 2 year releabation plan, that no matter what it takes i'm gona complete it successfully!
AlexPan
03-26-04, 02:16 PM
Auskan, yes captive bred snakes are still wild. But you missing my point, the snakes which lived in the wild will die and have an unfortunate life if kept as pets! The snakes that were born in captivity, do not know the other world, and are becoming used to people from day one.
Also i have a perfect plan of which i'm not gona say nothing yet until its atleast in progress, to make sure that captive bred snakes will not get used to people, and will have to kill their own pray.
No offense but I am afriad you will be killing all the snakes you set free.
You are telling me you are going to be able to INTRODUCE natural things into their systems? No. They will have NO defense when set free.
BTW It doesn't take a "scientist" to remove parasites. And he CANNOT put them into a snake.
Also without permits and compliance from the areas you are doing this, its HIGHLY illegal. But yeah good luck with the murde...I mean the release.
Marisa
But you missing my point, the snakes which lived in the wild will die and have an unfortunate life if kept as pets!
So umm.. Where did the first CB snakes come from??? Im quite sure they didn't just show up in someone's rubbermaid or aquarium...
Originally posted by AlexPan
Auskan, yes captive bred snakes are still wild. But you missing my point, the snakes which lived in the wild will die and have an unfortunate life if kept as pets! The snakes that were born in captivity, do not know the other world, and are becoming used to people from day one.
Alexpan, I can't make sense of this paragraph. You say the snakes which lived in the wild will die. Well yes. All living animals die at some point. So will any that you release into the wild - probably before they've had a chance to breed. You say they have an unfortunate life if kept as pets. Well, I'll leave that in the "that's just your opinion" barrell. Most responsible snake owners try to give their pets an excellent quality of life. I don't consider that mine have an "unfortunate" life at all.
Then you state "The snakes that were born in captivity, do not know the other world, and are becoming used to people from day one". Precisely. Isn't that the exact reason why its not a good idea to then release them to the wild? Because they don't know the "other" world? Because they are used to people from day one and not used to fending for themselves?
AlexPan
03-26-04, 03:02 PM
Auskan, I said IF the snakes are kept as pets which came from the wild then they will most likely die.
And thats why i'm working on a 10by 12 meter room, in which i'm gona poot the captive bred snakes as well as mice etc. In that room they will not see any people and will have to catch mice that runs around them selves like in the wild.
AlexPan
03-26-04, 03:08 PM
Matt_K, so what you saying is that its alright to take wild animals to keep as pets?!
And yes the first snakes were captured but that had to be done in order to start a captive bred colony BUT, now people just catch them to not have to pay for them, but those snakes are already available in captivity.
AlexPan, you are mistaken. Snakes that are captured in the wild and kept as pets do not necessarily die. I think that was Matt_K's point - that all captive bred snakes come from wild caught stock originally and obviously their wild caught ancestors did not die since they successfully reproduced.
Also, the number of people who catch snakes to avoid paying for them is minimal. I'm sure there are some - and shame on them - but for most people, buying a pet snakes is much easier than going out and finding one. Plus, its not necessarily cheaper, as ridding a wild-caught of parasites can be costly. Not to mention that when buying a captive-bred snake, you can have your choice of color morphs.
Your idea of a room to allow them to get used to wild conditions is commendable but not necessarily practical. You cannot possibly simulate wild conditions. A room in a building is still shielded from most elements (you can't have rain/storms/frost/dew etc). In the wild, snakes sometimes have to travel great distances in order to find prey. In a 10x12 room, you are still feeding them. And unless you are going out and catching wild mice/rats to set loose in that room, you still won't be giving them access to the parasites they will encounter in the wild. Even if you did that, you would still be introducing parasites into captive bred snakes that weren't born with the ability to defend themselves from those parasites. In that small a space, you still can't put very many snakes without them occupying the same space and stressing each other out. How will you provide hot/cool spots so they can thermoregulate, since a room, unlike the outdoors will not have sun. I could go on and on, but I won't. Its a fine idea - just not a practical one, and I urge you to reconsider - or at least put off your time frame until you are old enough to realize what a ridiculous notion you are proposing.
Alex Pan not only is most of you logic faulty, so I won't even bother writing the novel this would take but....
you say you will feed them mice? What about their NATURAL food? Do you have any idea what you are doing? These snakes will DIE. Mice and rodents play a part in wild diets, but so do lizards big time, as well as a portion of LIVE snakes. You cannot feed them these things while also monitering parasite levels (because these items carry parasites especially when fed live)
Frankly you are an amatuer like the rest of us trying to do something 100% the wrong way. You should NOT be letting ANY snakes loose, not to mention its ILLEGAL to do so in almost all areas.
Bighead I am sorry your thread got hijacked, I just cannot BELIEVE Alex Pan and his half thought out, terrible plan for these poor snakes he is sentencing for death. As for importing exporting there are some great people on this site that know much about this and hopefully they will get a chance to reply before Alex fills the thread up with more crack pot ideas. Again I am sorry for participating in this hijakc of your thread.
Marisa
AlexPan
03-26-04, 04:11 PM
This can go on and on, but i already stated my opinion, and the last thing i want to add is all snakes where ever they were born have to start from nothing and go on from there. I will offer them as much experience as i can, and the rest is up to them. Even if some will die in the wild, still most will survive, there for it would be successful. In the wild like 1 out of 50 snakes becomes an adult, if i can make it even 3 of 50 its a great success. Think about it, some one might have acsedently killed an adult snake there for destroyed a small part of ecosystem, i for one want to restore the ecosystem.
Bighead
03-26-04, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by marisa
Bighead I am sorry your thread got hijacked
No worries. I wasn't offended by anyone here. By the way, There are plenty of captive bred animals in Indonesia. I really wouldn't need to catch anything wild, although I would love to explore and observe some of the wild herps. This is one place I will definitely be visiting. It's supposed to be one of the most beautiful reptile zoos in the world.
The Breeder's site:
http://www.herpafauna.com/
The Park Site:
http://www.herpafauna.com/park/park.html
beth wallbank
03-26-04, 10:39 PM
why the heck would you want to breed a dime a dozen animal to begin with, that is readily available in captivity, accept the fact that most will die with your acceptance in your 'room' idea, then assume you would just be able to release the remaining? First of all, in the states where kings are found it is ILLEGAL to release a captive bred animal into the wild. Secondly, your released CB babies could potentially harm the wild animals if they brought with them a diease, and wipe out the wild populations that are thriving there now.
Why not focus your energies on wanting to breed a more endangered animal, and work on raising up stock so that the herping community could have a rarer species in their collection? There are many rare species out there for you to work with instead of wasting your time on a project that will never have any meaning to it what so ever.
A few months ago, you came on here and wanted us to all teach you how to milk venom from snakes, so you could bottle and sell it. Now you want to breed a readily available animal and chance destroying their natural habitats with releasing potentially life threatening diseases with them. You seem to have the drive to want to work on a herp related project, I think you need to think of realistic goals and ideas or no one will take you very seriously.
Just my two cents.
Bighead
03-27-04, 04:40 AM
You tell him, Beth.
Jason Wakelin
03-27-04, 06:34 AM
Beth,
No one could have said it better. Thank You!!
lolaophidia
03-27-04, 02:39 PM
Beth, good post. I don't think I could have said it as kindly... The problem is not necessarily the lack of snakes in the wild, as Beth said.
Alex, if you are really concerned for the welfare of the California Kingsnake and other snakes in California- protecting the habitat where they currently live is one of the best things you can do. Educating people about the importance of maintaining wild habitats and the importance of a diverse ecosystem that contains stable populations of native species is crucial. There are 4 endangered species of snakes from what I've read in California and they are not threatened because they can't breed or even because of an overwhelming number of predators or lack of food. The lack of habitat due to human development is endangering their welfare. It's pointless to introduce animals into an already strained situation. Keep your snakes, take the best care of them in captivity that you can. Learn about the environment they naturally inhabit and protect it!
AlexPan
03-28-04, 04:10 PM
Well i do agree with you guys about breeding the more endangered species, and protecting their environments, But i have no $$ that is needed to afford it. I am doing what i can and if any one wish to join up the forces with me they are welcome.
AlexPan
03-28-04, 04:14 PM
O and Beth_Wallbank, i have being studying how to milk hots and how to handle them, (no thanks to most UNHELPFULL and discouraging people in that other conversation), and have arranged and am getting my first hot in 2 month :) :) !
Originally posted by AlexPan
Matt_K, so what you saying is that its alright to take wild animals to keep as pets?!
And yes the first snakes were captured but that had to be done in order to start a captive bred colony BUT, now people just catch them to not have to pay for them, but those snakes are already available in captivity.
I think about 90% of people that collect wild specimens do it for educational purposes.. I think there are very few people that collect animals to be kept as pets these days.. Most will capture them, study them and let them go.. And no, i am not saying that it is okay to take animals out of their natural habitat, however, if someone hadn't years back, you wouldn't have your pet snakes now, would you??? And if those survived, i think it's quite obvious that WC snakes kept in captivity are not prone to death..
O and Beth_Wallbank, i have being studying how to milk hots and how to handle them, (no thanks to most UNHELPFULL and discouraging people in that other conversation), and have arranged and am getting my first hot in 2 month
Haven't you only owned snakes for like.. 4 months?? And you're already getting a hot, good luck with that, and im not looking forward to the replies your threads will get..
Crazycorn
03-28-04, 04:59 PM
My opinion is that AlexPan is a troll looking for a good time. Ignore his or her or it's posts.
Removed_2815
03-28-04, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by AlexPan
you want to catch some herpes and bring them to your house?
Oh gosh! This literally made me laugh out loud, I am sorry but it's funny how the inadvertant addition of an "e" can make this the funniest thing I've read today.....
Alex, your heart is certainly in the right place (your wanting to "help" the animals) but the logistics just don't work. And you are very misinformed about a lot of things pertaining to your endeavour. Everything has already been eloquently said by the other members so I won't repeat, but, bottom line, this is a bad idea. There's no use introducing animals to a population that (as far as I know) is still thriving, in fact, according to this site (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/hcpb/species/p_a_rglr/genplantsanimals.shtml), California Kingsnakes are not even on the Special Concern list (just like there's no use in setting up a captive breed-and-release program for pigeons in downtown TO neither ;)). Only bad things can come from this, the introduction of novel genes isn't always a good thing. I have a feeling this is all moot anyway, I am sure there are laws preventing this.
Cheers,
Ryan
So you're saying i should put an end to my Pigeon Breeding Project??? :/ :D
You failed to state the most important thing, without which this whole "plan" is of no use:
What is the POINT to all of this...? What goals to you hope to achieve and why do you feel these actions are nessesary...? What do you hope to achieve...?
How 'bout we start from there...
And that herpes thing IS classic...
Good eye Ryan! LOL! Never would have caught that myself! ;)
AlexPan
04-05-04, 01:09 PM
Will, i do that cause i enjoy helping nature, and don't no body worry i'm not gona do it any time soon, i still need to get some things done. I'm as concern as every one als, probably even more concern then most people here, so don't think i'm gona go out and do something with out knowing everything. What i hope to achieve in the future is, reproduction colonys of endangered species, and to pare up with some company that preserves parks so we together will hopefully succeed in breeding endangered species, so the future generations can enjoy the nature too.
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