Nutritional comparisson of pinky rat to fuzzy mouse

[ChristinaM]

Hey guys, I moved this out of Karma's thread cuz it deserves it's own.

I have a prey analysis, and actually looked up the info. I will see if I can find the website I got it from and put the link up. It's a pdf file with alot of info, very worth a look.

But, to the topic at hand. This is what I found:

domestic mouse size 3-10g vs rat neonatal under 10g

mouse: protein 44.2% Crude fat: 30.1% Cal: 6.65 per gram
rat: protein 57.9% Crude fat: 23.7% Cal: 5.30 per gram

mouse: calcium 1.47%
rat: calcium 1.85%

there's alot more info in this file, including other vitamins, etc. Lots of info.

If you want it, pm me with your email addy and I will send it to you ( unless I find the link first )

But, in regards to the topic. By the looks of things, rat vs mouse, rat exceeds in nutrition.

[morph]

Wouldn't that all vary greatly dependant on diet?

Scott

[Cruciform]

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

This one's been posted a few times too :)

[ChristinaM]

Originally posted by Cruciform
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

This one's been posted a few times too :)

By golly, that's the same charting I have :) The only diffrence is the pdf file I have is 20pgs.....it has alot of info written as well as the charts. But they are the same charts.

[ChristinaM]

FOUND IT:
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10966&highlight=information

[BoidKeeper]

I feed both my rats and mice the same food so I guess that must by default make my rats better.
As for a fuzzy mouse or a rat pinky. I go for the rat pinky every time. Eaiser to digest because of the lack of fur.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Tigergenesis]

Here's the 20 page doc:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

I talked with my vet about it and he said that yes you really have to consider the rodents diet, etc. And the study results don't show a huge difference to make it a big issue as to which one is better to feed.

[Tigergenesis]

Here's another way to look at it - mouse vs. rat of similiar age rather than size:

Mouse, neonatal <3grams: 64.2% protein, 17.0% fat, 4.87 gross energy kcal/g
Rat, neonatal <10grams: 57.9% protein, 23.7% fat, 5.30 gross energy kcal/g


Now the mouse looks better! Yes, it would take 2-3 mice this size to equal the size of 1 neonatal rat - but the meal would be healthier (at least in terms of protein). Which is better to do (feeding 2 smaller prey versus 1 large) according to my vet.

[HeatherK]

If you double the mouse meal rather than one rat, you'll see that you're also doubling all of those figures, not excluding fat.

I kept hearing that mice are higher in fat than rats - concern in captive snakes - but judging by the chart, it looks like not.. at least comparing an adult mouse to a younger rat (I don't think corns are fed adult rats all that often). Although some of those figures look a little 'off' to me.

Most of the time I hear the rat eating snakes become larger than the mouse eaters, although that's unscientific. Rats do have a lot more 'to' them, which would explain higher nutrional content. Proof is in the pudding I suppose :)

From a nutritional standpoint, it's of course best to raise your own rodents. I was thinking of doing this myself, but it's probably uneconomical when you only have one or two snakes.

[marisa]

You know the way I look at it is this....these snakes eat whatever they can catch in the wild, as often as they can catch it. That might be a parasite filled anole every month and some still grow up to adults and mate (yes yes i know how many in the wild die)

So if I am feeding a steady healthy clean diet of mice or rats....I think everything is all good.

What concerns me more than the prey item is people who over feed adults. I see photos of corns that are FAT and its sad.

Marisa

[Auskan]

Originally posted by HeatherK
If you double the mouse meal rather than one rat, you'll see that you're also doubling all of those figures, not excluding fat.


That would be correct if we were talking grams of protein & fat, but since we're talking percentages, nothing is doubled just by feeding two items rather than one.

[sapphire_moon]

ya, but if one mouse is almost 65% protien and add another mouse, you are still doubling the amount of protiene (and other nutrients)
Seems like that to me (but I never majored in math anyways!)

[sleddergirl]

But if you feed 2 mice or one rat, it doesn't matter the protein is still 65% of the meal............

[sapphire_moon]

but isn't the protein a main thing you want in the snakes food?

Does anyone know how much protein/fat that a snake is supposed to have?

[HeatherK]

Originally posted by Auskan
That would be correct if we were talking grams of protein & fat, but since we're talking percentages, nothing is doubled just by feeding two items rather than one.

When you're looking at an item's values, percentages are different than grams, yes, however anytime you feed (or eat) twice a serving size let's say, the body still gets double the amount of whatever is in just one. It doesn't matter whether the figures are expressed in percentages, grams, ounces, etc.

And that's another good question about this snake nutrition thing. I really have no idea of how much protein and fat they require in figures. With snakes becoming more popular in captivity, it would make sense to get this kind of information available.

[Auskan]

Originally posted by HeatherK
When you're looking at an item's values, percentages are different than grams, yes, however anytime you feed (or eat) twice a serving size let's say, the body still gets double the amount of whatever is in just one. It doesn't matter whether the figures are expressed in percentages, grams, ounces, etc.


Agreed. However in this case, where the examples given were a 3g mouse pinky & a 10g rat pinky, you would have to feed 3 mouse pinkies to equal the 1 10g pinky. So yes, you would be feeding 3 times the amount of protein as you would if you only fed 1 mouse pinky, but it would still only be 65% of the total meal. So its still more important to look at percentages - you can't just say you double or triple the amount of protein when the food item is 1/3-1/2 the size.

[marisa]

Heather brought up a good point.

You guys can go over and over this but in reality without guidlines as to what snakes need nutrionally, its a waste of time IMHO. Does anyone have this info, know where we can see it, or anyone working on it?

Marisa

[Tigergenesis]

I've not been able to find any answers to that question. I always just see the 'feed prey the size of the widest part of the snakes body' type rule.

Until that information is available, I just think it's a waste of time and energy for people to keep debatiing the 'which is better, mice or rats' arguement. There just isn't much difference in their nutritional qualities to really matter. Now if we were to find out how much protein, fat, etc they need then we could make use of the nutritional breakdowns to determine what's best for our snakes.

[HeatherK]

Originally posted by Auskan
So yes, you would be feeding 3 times the amount of protein as you would if you only fed 1 mouse pinky, but it would still only be 65% of the total meal.

I think I see what you mean now.

Marisa, I totally agree. I'm a little surprised it seems there isn't much in the way of information on their nutritional needs. I wonder if my exotics vet could point me in the right direction. Might have to send him an email and see.

I'm thinking because of how snakes eat (whole animal), it's harder for their diets to lack in nutrients, and perhaps why there doesn't seem to be much information on exactly what they need. Which is why I didn't think twice about feeding rat pinks instead of more developed mouse fuzzies, then finding out only from the vet that the snake may be hypocalcemic got me concerned. It's usually the keeper's fault when there is a problem with the diet, so it's frustrating when there is a lack of information.

[Tigergenesis]

HeatherK,
You bring up an interesting point that I have heard before - that the age of the prey (particularly when feeding younger snakes) is more important than worring about whether it's a mouse or rat. For a young snake the calcium offered by an older mouse would seem more important than a younger rat. A while back I read someone say their breeder alternates feeding rat pinkies and older mice to their young snakes since it's an important time for growth.

[Wizwise2000]

http://www.practical-pet-care.com/ebooks_snakes.php

I found this while looking this morning, will keep looking for something solid.

Shane

[HeatherK]

Tigergenesis- I was thinking of doing what the breeder you mentioned does (alternate rat pinks/mouse fuzzies) to cover all bases. I didn't know anyone who did it for that reason, very interesting. You'd think they would come across, and thus take both in the wild.

Shane, that book looks interesting, thanks. I wonder what the nutrition section is like.

[Tigergenesis]

Yeah, you figure they get quite a variety in the wild.

[Meat Man]

So basically, which is better overall, a rat pinky or a mouse fuzzy?

[HeatherK]

I still haven't been able to find a (working) link to a chart that compares both, with calcium/phosphorus percentages. It's probably best for now, to alternate with both if your snake is on rat pinks.

The information I could find, just from 'rat or mouse' discussion, is rats are a better food source.

[Tigergenesis]

The information I could find, just from 'rat or mouse' discussion, is rats are a better food source.

But none of those discussions included any hard evidence - just regurgitated statements of 'rats are better'.

One would assume that perhaps older prey would be better for a young growing snake as it would have more calcium while younger prey would have more fat. But I think alternating between a rat pinky and a mouse fuzzy (for example) would be a good practice. At least it seems to make good sense. I'm more apt to buy the 'age of prey' theory as opposed to the 'rats are better' idea- there just isn't much difference in protein. But it would seem that calcium differences would be greater depending on the age of the rodent

[Auskan]

If nothing else, until there is more data, I like the idea of alternating. I've been doing that anyway, as I breed both rats & mice, and what I feed my corns kind of depends on what I have available.

[marisa]

At this point in herping corns have been raised, bred and grown for 30 years at this point on mice alone. Generation after generation have been successfully grown on mice. I feed mine rats at this point, but thats because for me rats are convienent. Before this I had raised up four corns, and bred them on mice alone.

I really don't think switching back and forth is needed. Do it if you'd like, but a health must? No, not in my opinion at all, just a case of "over thinking" IMHO :) They do fine on mice, or rats. That's the one thing thats a fact.

Marisa

[Tigergenesis]

just a case of "over thinking" IMHO

Ditto!

[HeatherK]

Originally posted by Tigergenesis
But none of those discussions included any hard evidence - just regurgitated statements of 'rats are better'.

The 'hard evidence' I've heard is that the rat fed snakes in collections just grow larger on rats. Hard to be scientific, but with rats having more to them nutritionally (and mice apparently have a higher fat percentage) it makes sense. I'm not sure how much it effects genetic growth and final size, but I'm sure if anything, more nutrition would help them reach their genetic potential. I was also referring to older mice and rats. The switching back and forth, I don't think is needed unless it's between rat pinks and mouse fuzzies - in that case who knows, but to be certain the snake is getting the calcium it needs when we don't know otherwise, it definately can't hurt and might even benefit a growing snake.

[Tigergenesis]

The 'hard evidence' I've heard is that the rat fed snakes in collections just grow larger on rats.

But growing larger is not always evidence of being healthier. American diets are proof of that.

Hard to be scientific, but with rats having more to them nutritionally (and mice apparently have a higher fat percentage) it makes sense

Again, this depends on what age you're looking at. Not all mice have more fat. As in one of my earlier examples, if looking at the same aged mouse and rat - the rat has more fat. So you just can't say anything in generalities with this.

Oh, I long for the day when Herpetology has advanced so far as to gives all the answers we desire!

Interesting discussion. :cool:

[HeatherK]

Originally posted by Tigergenesis
But growing larger is not always evidence of being healthier. American diets are proof of that.

Well if it's just fat making the animal appear larger - and that would be width then, not length - then no, it's no good. I liken it to overfeeding growing dogs, (although probably not as much a serious issue in limbless animals ;) ) An overweight snake can get that way whether it's fed mice or rats.

I must have missed the rat having more fat part. I guess it would depend on their diet so it would vary between them, much like in humans. Another reason why it'd be beneficial to raise your own feeders.

I could just see me taking fat calipers to the feeders now :p

[Tigergenesis]

I could just see me taking fat calipers to the feeders now

LOL! I think you're right - the best thing is raise your own feeders that way you can have better control over their health.