Clementine - many questions

[feranaja]

Hi all, Catherine here with a whole bunch of questions...I hope it's ok to put them all in one spot?

First of all, Clementine is a three year old wild caught ball whom I bought about three weeks ago. She is my first snake. I handled her several times at the store and she seemed a little shy but not terrified - since she's been here she has been VERY edgy and once even struck at the top of the case when I placed my hand too near. Needless to say, I am now both nervous and concerned about her.

So...in some semblance of order...
1) I know it's to be expected that she won't eat quite yet. BUt how long is reasonable? I've offered dead mice but nothing doing. One expert suggested a live gerbil, but since CLem is a bit underweight and quite nervous I thought perhaps a live mouse? I hate to do it but I will have to when and if the refusal to eat gets problematic. When should I start to worry?

2) How important is a vet check up for all new snakes? I bought from a very expereinced breeder who has already tested her for parasites. I'm not keen on transporting her again, so soon after the trip home.

3) Her tank is only 20 gallons, but I will be getting a larger one eventually. I'm thinking of either a 50 gallon bow front, or a basic enclosure (which is cheaper but i haven't even seen yet.) I want her to have as much room as possible and space to climb in, as well.

3) Temperature - I only have one thermometer in there, it's in the cooler end, and it's always between 70 and 75 degrees, with the light on..of course i turn it off at night.
There is a heating pad under her cave but I don't know what the tmp is in there...she is always in there now, but the first few days when she was home she was out a lot. I'm concerned it's too cold in the tank,and if yes, what do I do?

4) Interaction - what do you all feel about the connection you make with your snakes? Are they pets, friends, do they know you, interact with you, or are these unreasonable expectations to put on a reptile? How much do you guys handle your snakes? (I couldn't bring myself to say balls, in that context...sorry
:D )

5) How sensitive is their hearing???

I think that's it for now. Thanks in advance! I feel better just seeing all the topics about balls not eating..I guess I'm not alone in this...:rolleyes:

Cat

[Big_V]

Okay firstly if its Wild Caught I would still take it to the vet to make sure there arent any parasites. Its always extra percaution. Secondly, you must always know the temps in the cage before you put the animal in. The cool side of that tank needs to be a bit higher in my opinion like 78-80. Heating pads can get very hot when not on a rheostat so make sure to move the snake and check out that temperature. ALong with this make sure there is more than one hide in the enclosure so the snake can thermoregulate in whichever hide it chooses. Hot spot around 88-92 is what ive used with mine and had no problems. The hotspot should be just less than 1/3 the tank and allow the whole snake to fit over the hotspot. In terms of feeding, you will have to get those temps correct immediately before trying feeding IMO. Was this animal eating before you got it ? YOu should usually feed a new addition about a week after it has settled in. Feeding it before this date usually just stresses the animal out and will lengthen the non eating of the animal. If you find out it has eaten before it can last a few weeks no problem without a meal. If you must feed live you may want to try a wealing rat. Rats are more nutritional then mice plus I find snakes usually take them easier than mice in my experience though. If that doesnt work. Freeze a gerbil and when it comes time to feed rub the mouse or rat against the gerbil to transfer the scent. I wouldnt put a live gerbil in the cage because t. They can inflict some serious damage as all rodents can. Supervision is the key to this. You cannot leave a rodent unattended with a ball python especially. Also, dont handle the snake until at least a week has passed, only if the snake has eaten. Wait until it has its first meal before handling to reduce stress, and dont handle the snake until a day after just to reduce the chances of regurgitation. And last they have no ears so they dont hear. THey sence vibrations on the ground. Its best to put the snake in an area of low house traffic. Dont be blaring a stereo around them as that would stress them out.
Cheers, Ryan
This is just my advice, others may have different ideas.

[Vengeance]

First you should have looked into this information way before you go the ball python.

Second, I'd return it to the store you got it from. If this is your first Ball python you are no where near equipped to deal with a Wild Caught one. There is absolutly no need with the amount of Captive Bred ball pythons in the industry that you would ever knowingly need to take in a wild caught ball python unless it was a rescue attempt.

But you have it so it's best you take care of it properly.

#1 Your temps are way to low, 70 - 75 on the cool side is way to low and you have to KNOW for sure that those are the temps, don't guess. On the cool side the temps should be between 80 - 85.

#2 The hot side needs to be 90 - 95 and again I can't stress enough that you NEED TO KNOW what the temp is. Get a thermometer with an external probe and place it over the hot spot so you know what the tempature is. If you have a UTH plugged in without a rheostat or light dimmer chances are the hot spot is reacing over 100o F

#3 A 20 gallon may be big enough depending on the size of the python. Do you have any idea how old he is. Also make sure you have atleast 2 hides one on the cool side, one on the hot side.

#4 I love my Ball python it's great to hang out with him. But I also realize that he may not like hanging out with me and since I can't acutally ask him I limit my handling sessions right now to only about 15 - 20 mins every day or every other day, except when feeding. I don't handle the day before, the day of and the day after a feeding. But with a wild caught Ball python it may take years for it to calm down to be handled if it ever calms down at all.

#5 For your ball python a vet check up is absolutly necessary. Being a WC ball python he needs a checkup to make sure he is in good health. The breeder does not sound as reputable as you make that person out to be. Any respectable breeder would not sell a WC ball python to a first time Ball python owner.

Again you should have done your research before you made this purchase and if you can I would return the Python and get your money back and get yourself a captive bred ball python. You won't have anywhere near as many problems as I forsee you having with this one.

[MouseKilla]

I also think you may have bitten off more than you can chew with this animal but I don't see a need to panic. The reality is that ball pythons are tricky animals for even the most experienced keepers even when captive bred.

They require higher than normal heat. The proper temps have already been given (80 on the cool side and 90's on the hot side). They also need high humidity (60 - 80%) which isn't an easy thing to accomplish in an aquarium as they tend to mean wire mesh lids or other things that let out a lot of heat and humidity. Of course none of that means a thing unless you can measure the heat and humidity. If you go to Radio Shack or most department stores you can get an indoor/outdoor thermometer and hygrometer for $20 - $40. It's the best investment you will ever make for keeping snakes.

You would likely be better off (or, rather the snake would be better off) if you scrap the aquarium altogether and got yourself a $10 Rubbermail/Sterlite container with a few holes in it. You can use the UTH you already have to heat it but you will have to find a way to regulate how hot the hotspot gets. You can do that with a thermostat, a rheostat or you can improvise by raising the enclosure and leaving some space between the heater and the bottom of the enclosure until the temps don't get any higher than the high 90s.

As for hearing, snakes have no ears so it's not really an issue. They are sensitive to vibrations (you would be too if you had your belly pressed to the ground all the time) but I think this sensitivity is often exaggerated. Should you keep you snake's enclosure on top of a stereo speaker and play a lot of dance hall raggae? No. But you can yell at them all day and you won't get a reaction from them. I have a couple of snakes in my living room and I like to watch movies with the home theatre on, Saving Private Ryan and Platoon haven't seemed to stir my animals. Noise isn't a problem but shaking the hell out of the cage probably isn't the best thing.

Good luck with your snake.

[feranaja]

WEll, Vengeance, to be fair I did my best to research python care. I spoke many times at length to a very knowledgable person, and I visited the snake at the store multiple times. I live about five minutes from the store, I work from home so I am always here to watch over things, and I have an extensive background with mammals, which may not count for much in the reptile world, but I feel gives me a good idea as to how much work and care it takes to properly look after any pet. My bottom line was, if the store owner was comfortable with me having her, I would be as well. I think he knew I would be a committed and caring owner...and would stay in touch with him in the event of any problems.
That said - he's been great insofar as he has a business to run and breeds carpet pythons etc and he can't be expected to cater to my every call and question. To be fair, I think he already has done very well helping me. The fact I am unclear is just growing pains, and probably, encroaching midlife that means I forget more often than I remember. practise makes perfect. I am most concerned with tank temperature and space, as everyone is saying the same thing about feeding. Clem's tank is much too small for more than one hide; she is about three feet long and I bought the biggest one I could find, and it takes almost half the tank. With her water dish there is really not enough room for another hide. It appears that I need a larger tank asap,and another thermometer for the hot end. I don't know why the tank is not warmer as I have the light I was given on all the time. This does worry me.

I do consider this a rescue attempt, actually.

What I was told was that a wild caught is a bit more difficult for a newbie, but only as far as feeding goes, the attitude was the same as captive bred. To be fair, this snake is not as friendly and confident as the captives I have met. BUt she also has been moved aroudn a lot, and apparently lived in a really "rowdy" household for a time, which mine is definitely not!

I appreciate your ire since I work with Rhodesian Ridgeback rescue and I see all sorts of bad situations arising when people get an RR and they think they can handle them, but in fact they can't, and they ruin the dog. It's a sad thing, but it is definitely not always the breeder's fault. I can assure you the person I bought from has a great reputation and enormous knowledge! He sold Clem to me becasue she WAS accepting of handling, I appeared to be a caring and committed person (I work wth dogs, professionally) and I live closeby. I hazard to guess he would not have sold her to me had those qualities not been apparent to him.

I do appreciate your imput, but I think the suggestion my breeder is not reputable is goinga bit too far. I am purchasing a captive bred as well but I will not surrender Clem, because I feel I can offer her a good home, given the right information and a little time to implement it all.

I will take her to a vet asap if you feel this is a necessity. WE have a great reptile vet nearby, in Ottawa.

Thanks again Vengeance. I appreciate your expertise.
Catherine

[feranaja]

Originally posted by Big_V
Okay firstly if its Wild Caught I would still take it to the vet to make sure there arent any parasites. Its always extra percaution. Secondly, you must always know the temps in the cage before you put the animal in. The cool side of that tank needs to be a bit higher in my opinion like 78-80. Heating pads can get very hot when not on a rheostat so make sure to move the snake and check out that temperature. ALong with this make sure there is more than one hide in the enclosure so the snake can thermoregulate in whichever hide it chooses. Hot spot around 88-92 is what ive used with mine and had no problems. The hotspot should be just less than 1/3 the tank and allow the whole snake to fit over the hotspot. In terms of feeding, you will have to get those temps correct immediately before trying feeding IMO. Was this animal eating before you got it ? YOu should usually feed a new addition about a week after it has settled in. Feeding it before this date usually just stresses the animal out and will lengthen the non eating of the animal. If you find out it has eaten before it can last a few weeks no problem without a meal. If you must feed live you may want to try a wealing rat. Rats are more nutritional then mice plus I find snakes usually take them easier than mice in my experience though. If that doesnt work. Freeze a gerbil and when it comes time to feed rub the mouse or rat against the gerbil to transfer the scent. I wouldnt put a live gerbil in the cage because t. They can inflict some serious damage as all rodents can. Supervision is the key to this. You cannot leave a rodent unattended with a ball python especially. Also, dont handle the snake until at least a week has passed, only if the snake has eaten. Wait until it has its first meal before handling to reduce stress, and dont handle the snake until a day after just to reduce the chances of regurgitation. And last they have no ears so they dont hear. THey sence vibrations on the ground. Its best to put the snake in an area of low house traffic. Dont be blaring a stereo around them as that would stress them out.
Cheers, Ryan
This is just my advice, others may have different ideas.

Oooh, I just figured out how to use the quote function...:rolleyes:

Hi Ryan and thank you for taking the time to reply.

I see I have a fair bit of adjusting to do, in terms of the hide(s), the temperature and even the enclosure itself. I admit I have bena bit worried about the heating pad, as I can't tell how hot it is othr than by lifting the tank and feeling the glass, it is never very hot, but perhaps that means nothing. I wasn't sure how to check the temp of it, since it's flat on the bottom. Also, the tank istelf has no legs, is that an issue? It sits right on the little table from Ikea I bought for a stand.

AS for the hearing thing - how do snake charmers use music to "hypnotize" cobras? Or is that a myth of some sort? Just something that occurred to me the other day, I was wondering if soothing music helped a snake relax.

Thank you for all the ideas. I am feelinga bit overwhelmed, but that's not a bad thing, it just means I need to double my efforts to get this right.
Cheers, Cat

PS -Clem was never a good feeder, apparently, so I did know that much when I choose to take her on.

[Big_V]

The tank should be raised just a bit of the surface of the stand to allow air circulation below. This way you dont the risk of a fire hazard and makes sures that you arent overheating the bottom of the tank. Snakes cannot hear as they have no ears but do sense vibrations. If i have my stereo on in my room my ball python comes out to check it out but goes back to rest quickly. They kinda enter a trance with a rythmic sound. Or at least thats what people have told me.
Cheers, Ryan
Id also go out and by the Ball Python Manual from Phillipe Vosjili (sp)....its something that you should always have on hand. Has lots of feeding techniques and is a quick reference to problems.

[Auskan]

Originally posted by feranaja
Clem's tank is much too small for more than one hide; she is about three feet long and I bought the biggest one I could find, and it takes almost half the tank. With her water dish there is really not enough room for another hide. It appears that I need a larger tank asap,and another thermometer for the hot end. I don't know why the tank is not warmer as I have the light I was given on all the time. This does worry me.

If the tank is too small for more than one hide, then its too small for the snake, because a hide on each side is essential. That said, how big are your hides? Ball Pythons feel most comfortable crammed into a hide so that their back is touching the top of it. Therefore, your hides don't need to be huge and you should be able to fit one in each end of a 20 gallon. (Edit: I just noticed that you said the hide takes up half of her tank. Get rid of it. Its way too big for her to be comfortable in).

However I would scrap the tank idea and put her in a rubbermaid. It will be much easier to keep a decent humidity level in one. You can use one of those under the bed type of tubs, or what I use is a Sterilite that was around $8 at walmart. It is 3' long and about 18" high, so she has some climbing room.

Its been said by others, but knowing what the temp is on your hot side is ESSENTIAL. A heat pad will get way too hot so you need to put it on a dimmer or it will burn your snake. Best to get a digital thermometer (around $15 at walmart) so you can measure the temps, and adjust your rheostat (lamp dimmer) until you get the temps right.

[Vengeance]

Sorry to jump to conclusions but for first time owners WC are not good starter snakes. Also by no means am I an expert, I only have the one Ball Python, picking up 2 more in the next few months. But from all the reading I've done WC are not good to buy for a couple of reasons, one you're never sure what your getting into in terms of sickness, parasites, and everything and two because paying for a WC ball python encourges the seller to go out and get more because they are making a profit.

Anyway if the Ball python is 3 feet then yea and 20 gallon may be a bit too small, espically if you can't fit 2 hides in the cage. You need the 2 hides because that way the snakes doesn't have to choose security over cooling down or heating up it can deel secure at anytime.

Rubbermaids are a good suggestion. But you can use a glass tank if you want, just realize that the work involved in settinup a glass tank costs allot more and requires allot more effort then setting up a rubbermaid. But since you do need to upgrade the tank sooner rather then later for ease of setup a rubbermaid would be the way to go.

For measuring temps you can usually find the thermometers with a probe at walmart for $20. If you want something a little better I use an inexpensive temp gun that is advertised on this site. I can't remeber the URL right now, mabye someone else would like to post the Temp Gun sold by Ravi? I have the site at home I'll post it later.

[ChokeOnSmoke]

If you are worried about the temps on the hot side why dont you move the thermometer from the cool side to the hot side?
Snakes feel more secure when their hides are confining. So get a hide that will just fit your snake.
To get the temps it is much easier to do with a light dimmer attached to you UTH.
I'm not sure if you have ever wired a light dimmer but if you haven't there are some really good threads about it in the general enclosure forum.
Good luck

[BoidKeeper]

Hi,

I said this once but I'll say it again, get a copy of the Ball Python Manual.
Now for your questions,

since she's been here she has been VERY edgy and once even struck at the top of the case when I placed my hand too near. Needless to say, I am now both nervous and concerned about her.
Wild caught balls almost always stay nevervouse and head shy. When taking home a WC ball I always recomend the 4 and 1 rule. Don't handle it until it's had 4 meals and one deffication. Given that it's not eating that could be a while. This is the time of year that balls are off food so don't worry about it. Some don't start eating until June.


1) I know it's to be expected that she won't eat quite yet. BUt how long is reasonable?
They often stop in September and can stay off until June.
Do you know when the last time it ate was and what it was that she ate?

I've offered dead mice but nothing doing
Do not offer mice. Balls should be fed rats. You don't want a 4 foot snake that needs to eat 10 little mice at a time to constitute a meal. A snake should always be offered a food item that is equal to or 1.5 times the widest part of it's body. A snakes diameter is refered to as it's girth. So you want to feed it something equal to or 1.5 times it's largest girth.


One expert suggested a live gerbil, but since CLem is a bit underweight and quite nervous I thought perhaps a live mouse?
This "expert" should have also told you that this is only for the most extreme cases. Again it is important to find out what it ate last. There are a tone of things you can try before offering lize. If you do have to go to live try a live hopper or crawler rat if anything and then move up from there.

When should I start to worry?
Get it vet checked, take it home keep it warm 90-95 hot, 80-85 cool, 60% humidity, two hide boxes, cage in a low traffic area and for get about it for 4 weeks then try to feed it. If it hasn't eaten by May then I would start to try more drastic matters like live food.


2) How important is a vet check up for all new snakes?
Extremely.



I bought from a very expereinced breeder who has already tested her for parasites.
Experienced breeder or pet shop, big difference. Why is a breeder selling WC? The good news is that if you bought it from some one experienced you should be able to find out when and what it ate last.



3) Her tank is only 20 gallons, but I will be getting a larger one eventually. I'm thinking of either a 50 gallon bow front, or a basic enclosure (which is cheaper but i haven't even seen yet.) I want her to have as much room as possible and space to climb in, as well.
Tank size depends on her size. Something 36"Lx18"Wx12"or18"h is great for an adult ball. Too much room for a WC ball is bad, it stresses them out. Make sure it has at least two even three tight dark hide boxes.

3) Temperature -
This is the most important aspect of keeping snakes. You need to know what is going on in the cage. The best thing to buy is a digital thermometer with a remot probe. Lay the probe on the surface of the hot spot and adust the temp buy raising or lowering the tank until you get a hot spot of 90-95. About 1/2-1/4 of the tank should be 90-95. Another way to adjust the temp if you don't have a control hooked to the heat pad is to adjust the amount of substrate you have in the bottom of the tank. What are you using in the bottom anyway?
4) Interaction -
They tolerate us, that's it. It won't come when you call it or miss you while you're away.
5) How sensitive is their hearing???
They are deaf to air born sounds. They are however sensitive to vibrations.
Hope this helps,
Trevor

[mykee]

Hey Trevor, that even hepled me! You should consider writing a book on the captive husbandry of ball pythons, I'd buy one, you probably gave out more information in that post than the first two books I read.

[BoidKeeper]

Thanks man.
Maybe after I retire from my day job.lol
Cheers,
Trevor
PS
Jack is doing great, going to try him tonight.

[mykee]

Trevor, good luck with him. He's a super good boy.

[BoidKeeper]

Well nothing yet. Should go anytime though. I'm going to try and hold out for F/T. The other one is enjoying a place of honour in high school bio class.
Cheers,
Trevor