whats a proper wieght gain?

[Pirranha]

I was curious to know what people consider to be a healthy amount of weight gain for a growing Ball python.
To get them to grow fast without getting obese or deformed would be a breeders ideal-but where is the line between overfeeding and healthy growth?
I know ive seen similar threads before about over feeding,but i dont remember anyone posting weights compared to age and length.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Specific weight gain per month is not really important. If you want a nice healthy snake, feed it one good meal every 7 days.

Now, you can still have a nice healthy snake if you feed it one really good meal every 5 days, but you don't seem to be worried about rapid growth so you can save your self some food costs.

Also, in most cases, your ball python will make the rules... not you. :) If she only wants to eat once a month, there's nothing you can do about it! :D

[BoidKeeper]

I've recorded ever meal and shed and deffication for one of my balls since she was 120g. I'll post some numbers for you when I get a chance.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Pirranha]

ya i guess i was assuming the snakes would eat as much as you fed them-not really the case for most ball pythons is it.
I was kinda curious to find out how my lil girl is doing compared to some raised by the pros.I keep a feeding record and shed record,but the defication record ive slacked off a bit-got most of em,but i know i missed a few.

[mykee]

Balls that are raised by 'the pros' are not going to differ in size to those raised my the 'un-pros'. You feed them when they're hungry, they eat when they want. I don't think 'the pros' have any secret recipe for growing giant balls really fast. Correct me if I'm wrong "pros"....(I'll pay for the recipe if you have one).

[Pirranha]

well i ment that in so much as they raise them to breed not just for a pet,and will want to get them to grow at the best rate,and be as heavy and healthy as possible every year for breeding.

[tHeGiNo]

Whether you have a ball python for a pet or for breeding, the goal for both options SHOULD be the same, a healthy snake who is fed when it should be.

[Pirranha]

yes but what is healthy for a pet and whats healthy for a breeding snake are a bit different.A breeding snake is fattened up so it can use its energy reserves for eggs,while a pet snake fed the same and doesnt lay eggs would just get obese.
none of this answers my original question of whats the usual weight gain and growth rate of peoples snakes.
Guess i should have worded it a bit better,it seems to be getting taken the wrong way.

[emroul]

I sent you an email Pirranha. Hope it helps, let me know. ;)

[mykee]

Breeder snakes are not 'fattened up', they're fed. How would you suggest doing that? If you own a ball, you know that they either eat, or they don't and it's all done on THEIR schedule. Half of my adult females were to be used for breeding this year, and the other half, not. Their feeding schedules were identical. Unless you're injecting your rats with Crisco prior to feeding, it's pretty unlikely that you're ever going to see an obese ball. I keep hearing about 'em, but someone is yet to produce a pic.

[Pirranha]

i really wasnt looking into debating what people thought was too much or too little food for their snakes,i just asked what different growth rates are.

[daver676]

Originally posted by Pirranha
i just asked what different growth rates are.

There are an infinate number of growth rates. Every snake is different in it's growth rate.

[Pirranha]

yup,and im curious to find out how much difference there is from people.Emroul is the only person to actually answer my original question with a detailed feeding/weight chart-thank Jen!
I really didnt want to get into personal opinions on how fast a ball python grows,i just wanted some data.
Isnt anyone else curious to find out the rate other ball pythons grow?

[Vengeance]

*rasies hand*

I'm curious, would be nice to know everything is on the right track.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I really didnt want to get into personal opinions on how fast a ball python grows

Isn't that EXACTLY what a "growth rate is"? How fast a BP grows. I'm confused.

[scalawag]

Jeff, I think he means personal opinions such as, a Ball Python will only eat when it wants and it'll grow if you feed it. The opinions he's recieved for the most part have not answered what he was asking. He's asking about data and figures. Something tangible to measure his by I would imagine.

I didn't keep accurate weight/lenght mesurements untile recently but as of today my balls are 1: 4'1" 1467 g 2: 3'2" 1016 g (a rescued ball)

[Pirranha]

i was looking for numbers,not disscussion on whats too much or too little food for a healthy snake

[emroul]

Glad I could help, Pat. :) Ok, I didn't really want to post such a long thing, but since it seems there are others interested in the "numbers" as well, I'll go ahead and post a couple growth rate charts of a male '03 and a female '03. You will see the male is currently 'sort of' off feed (gotta love those males!). Here they are. The first one is the male '03:

1.0 Python regius: “Caesar" (M0827PRXA01)

Acquired: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 at 2 months old
Estimated date of birth: June 25, 2003
Weight: 90 grams September 9, 2003

Defecated: Saturday, August 30, 2003 [One adult mouse Saturday August 23, 2003]
Full body shed Saturday August 30, 2003
Feeding: one f/t hopper mouse September 6, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup September 13, 2003
Weight: 118 grams September 18, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup September 20, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup September 24, 2003
Weight: 148 grams September 27, 2003
Defecated: September 27, 2003
Full body shed Saturday September 27, 2003
Weight: 136 grams (after defecation) September 27, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup September 29, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 4, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 8, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 12, 2003
Weight: 192 grams October 16, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 16, 2003
Weight: 188 grams October 19, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 20, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 25, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 29, 2003
Full body shed November 1, 2003
Weight: 224 grams November 2, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 3, 2003
Defecated: November 5, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat November 7, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 11, 2003
Feeding: two f/t hopper mice November 15, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 18, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 20, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 23, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat November 26, 2003
Refused feeding: November 30, 2003 (in shed)
Refused feeding: December 4, 2003(in shed)
Full body shed: December 7, 2003
Defecated: December 9, 2003
Refused feeding: December 9, 2003
Feeding: one live rat pup December 11, 2003 (left over- not being picky)
Feeding: one f/t small rat December 21, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat December 26, 2003
Weight: 494 grams December 28, 2003
Defecated: December 29, 2003
Weight: 460 grams December 29, 2003
Refused feeding: December 30, 2003
Length: 30 inches January 3, 2004
Refused feeding: January 5, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat January 10, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat January 15, 2004
Refused feeding: January 24, 2004 (in shed)
Full body shed: January 25, 2004
Refused feeding: January 29, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat February 3, 2004
Refused feeding: February 9, 2004
Defecated: February 11, 2004
Refused Feeding: February 24, 2004
Feeding: one f/t rat pup February 28, 2004
Feeding: one live rat pup March 6, 2004
Weight: 578 grams March 13, 2004

And this is Shayla, one of my female '03's:

0.1 Python regius: “Shayla”

Acquired: Tuesday, September 9, 2003
Estimated date of birth: June 2003
Weight: 104 grams September 9, 2003

Feeding: one f/t rat pup September 13, 2003
Weight: 124 grams September 18, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup September 20, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup September 24, 2003
Weight: 164 grams September 28, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup September 29, 2003
Defecated: September 30, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 4, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 8, 2003
Defecated: Saturday October 11, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 12, 2003
Weight: 196 grams October 16, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 16, 2003
Weight: 194 grams October 19, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 20, 2003
Full body shed October 25, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 25, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup October 29, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 3, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat November 7, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 11, 2003
Defecated: Friday, November 14, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 15, 2003
Feeding: one f/t rat pup November 18, 2003
Feeding: two f/t rat pups November 23, 2003
Full body shed November 23, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat November 26, 2003
Feeding: one live sub-adult mouse November 30, 2003 (left over-not being picky)
Defecated: December 3, 2003
Weight: 340 grams December 3, 2003
Refused feeding: December 4, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat December 9, 2003
Feeding: one live rat pup December 11, 2003 (left over- not being picky)
Defecated: December 16, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat December 16, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat December 21, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat December 26, 2003
Weight: 552 grams December 28, 2003
Feeding: one f/t small rat December 30, 2003
Length: 29 inches January 3, 2004
Full body shed: January 5, 2004
Defecated: January 5, 2004
Weight: 520 grams January 5, 2004
Refused feeding: January 5, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat January 10, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat January 15, 2004
Weight: 648 grams January 19, 2004
Defecated: January 21, 2004
Weight: 604 grams January 21, 2004
Feeding: f/k hopper mouse January 21, 2004 (left over- not being picky)
Feeding: one f/t small rat January 24, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat January 29, 2004
Defecated: February 3, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat February 3, 2004
Feeding: one f/t medium rat February 9, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat February 17, 2004
Full body shed: February 18, 2004
Feeding: one f/t small rat February 24, 2004
Feeding: one f/t rat pup February 28, 2004
Defecated: March 3, 2004
Weight: 852 grams March 3, 2004
Feeding: two f/t small rats March 8, 2004
Feeding: one f/t medium rat March 14, 2004

Hope that helps someone. :)
Jennifer

[Auskan]

Jennifer, in looking through your feeding charts, I notice that you feed pretty often. For eg, you fed Caesar on Nov 7, 11, 15, 18, 20, 23 & 26. I have always been told that you shouldn't feed more often than once every 5 days under 1-1 1/2 years & only ever 7 days after that.

Please note: this is NOT a criticism of your methods. I only have one BP and I'm still learning what is best for her. Can you comment on why you feed so often? I haven't been offering food as often as you have, and I guess I'm just wondering if I should be, or if others are feeding more on the 5-7 day schedules?

[elevation24]

Feed 'em when they are hungry!!

[mykee]

Elevation; correction, try to feed them when you think they're hungry.
Auskan; you can't be so structured when it comes to snakes, it's good to feed them once a week, and I'm sure most people would agree that that is an OK method, but if you know your ball(s), then you'll know that they may prefer a different feeding schedule than the one you are offering. For example, I had a male who would eat a good-sized rat every 3 days for two weeks, amd then not eat for 2 months. If you pay attention to your balls, and experiment with feeding, you'll notice that most will tell you when they want to eat.
Hence, the reason why growth rates vary greatly from one ball to another.

[mykee]

Pirranha; how's this, you tell me the sex of your ball, and it's age, and I'll post the weights of some of my females at that age.

[Pirranha]

sure mykee,my snake was last weighed a few days after a meal-about mar 13 at 657g,and on feb 22 was 535g "empty".She was born july 11/03.She is now about 33inches long.Other than that i dont know because ive recently bought a scale and didnt keep track before that.

[boomfala]

Here is a good tangent/sub-topic.
How do your pythons tell you they are hungry? (besides when they eat... LOL)
Behaviors?
Mine definately tend to begin stalking and peeking out of hiding spaces when i come into the room. My girl arches about 6" into the air and looks around... VERY cute!

[Auskan]

Mykee, I guess what my point was, was not so much about being "structured" about feeding, but that my understanding was that it wasn't a good idea to feed meals too close together (less than 5 days) as its not good for their digestive system. Some of Jennifer's feeding intervals are only 2-3 days, and I was curious whether that could eventually be detrimental.

[daver676]

My bp (10 months, 24 inches, 460 grams) eats 2 adult mice every 4 days.

June 15, 2003 - 44 grams
November 15, 2003 - 160 grams (refused a lot of food to this point)
March 2, 2004 - 460 grams (eating like a tank)

[emroul]

Auskan, Ball pythons are "availability" feeders. Meaning, if they see a rat they are going to go for it. And if one comes around 2 days later, they're most likely going to go for that one, as well, because they don't know when their next meal is going to be.

I am purposely packing on the grams because I plan on breeding. Right now, almost all my Ball pythons are off feed. This doesn't bother me one bit, because they know when they need to eat next, and there are plenty of meals in them. "Caesar" ate every 2 or 3 days, I didn't force him... ;) And if you notice, that didn't go on for very long. Also, I don't ever hold them while they are going on this "food rush", so I would think their digestive system isn't in any real danger. They have all the time in the world to digest comfortably and stress-free. I basically just let the snakes be snakes and they eat when they want and don't eat when they aren't hungry; or feel that if they did, complications may occur (aka stress or brumation).

If you're just going to have a Ball python or two for a pet, I would say that the most efficient way to feed is the recommended every 5-7 days (or of course for an adult every 7-10 days). This saves you money on food, and it doesn't fill them up to the point where you can't ever hold them because they are digesting. I hope I answered your question.

Take it easy,
Jennifer

[Vengeance]

Originally posted by emroul
Auskan, Ball pythons are "availability" feeders. Meaning, if they see a rat they are going to go for it. And if one comes around 2 days later, they're most likely going to go for that one, as well, because they don't know when their next meal is going to be.


Wish mine ate like that :D

Although I just found out that if I leave the rat with him overnight he will eat it, just found that out last feeding. But usually I leave it with him for an hour if he doesn't coil when I dangle it in front of him. After the hour I take it out, but I'll be leaving it overnight from now on.

[Pirranha]

hey i was wondering about that-leaving food in the enclosure very long.
I had a fresh killed rat i left for a few hours and it wasnt eaten,so i froze it.How long do people leave the food out like that before they decide not to feed it to the snake anymore?

[Vengeance]

If I'm going to frezze the rat again I'll only leave it out for an hour or so. If I leave it in there all night and it's still there the next day, I'll throw it out.

[emroul]

Ditto.

[mykee]

Pirranha; Some females that I had (from hatchlings), at 8 months weighed in at, 533g, 417g, 641g, 879g, 584g, 916g and 758g, all on empty stomachs.

[BoidKeeper]

That's not enough time to get hungry. I feed every 5 days under the first year every 7 after that. Raising them up too fast is not a good thing. Jeff Rone says in his video that all the boas he raised to 6 feet in 18 months died after just 3 years for no aparent reason. Raising slower is healthier for the animals long term health. Over feeding causes snake to get fat, fat is not the right type of growing. There is a balance to getting them to grow with out getting fat. Time and time again we keep hearing 5 days and 7 days from people who raise snakes for a living, I wonder why that is?
Cheers,
Trevor

[mykee]

Trevor, seriously, who says that "X" amount of days is "not enough time to get hungry"? Some people would say it's not possible for me to be hungry after a huge steak dinner, but man, have I proved them wrong.....on more than one occasion.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ball Pythons are not boas.

[BoidKeeper]

Ball Pythons are not boas.
Really! Thanks Jeff! What ever would the members of the site do with out you? I mean really, it's insightful comments like that which keep us on the cutting edge.:p :rolleyes:
And here I was building an incubator for every boa in my collection.
But seriously Jeff, they are closer to boas then corns, the grow faster I would say but they both metabolize food at almost the same rate so therefore wouldn't stand to reason that power feeding (there I said it, that dirty word) them would have the similar effects on them as boas?
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

I would say Ball Pythons are pulse feeders and (look at their habitat/niche) and Boas are not. Boas are slow, steadyy, large-mealed eaters. Ball Pythons are built for rapid weight gain, followed by extreme periods of fasting. Look at where they live.

Who said anything about corns?

Does this un-knot your panties now?

[BoidKeeper]

I was making a comparasion of metabolisims, meaning that a ball has a metobolisim that is some what faster than a boas. So when speaking in terms of metabolism speeds, balls are closer to corns then boas are. Meaning that you can feed them more often like you can with corns.
So I agree with you that balls can be fed more often then boas. All I'm saying is that they still can't be fed that often with out them getting fat instead of growing.
And no, that doesn't un-knot my panties,
Cheers,
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Good.

But I never said that Balls can be fed more often than Boas. I would never say such a statement. All I said was that their inherent biology/physiology is/was different, and that comparisons to another sub-family of snakes might not be useful.

But it might be.

I just think it might be more helpful if we stick to Ball Pythons. Just my opinion though. No harm intended.