Just so you guys know......

[Gregg M]

There is someone in the KS forums that goes by the name of Gaboon001 that seems to be very pro-void....... He just tried to rip me up in the viper forum........ He said something about what I say about voids, is crap and that no one wants to here it........ He also frequents this site..... There was a pic of someone holding a void gaboon that looked like someone stepped on its head....... Oh and it belongs to NERD........

[Crotalus75]

Ya.....I saw those sad looking pics........


and here:

http://www.tinygiants.com/NERD/misc.htm

[Big_V]

That pic with the Gaboon on the guys hand is just disturbing to me. The snake almost looks sad in a way.
Venemoids (vene-moi-ds) -Human medaling in nature for profit. also see account for animal cruelty.
Cheers, Ryan
Dictionary definition I swear. ;)

[crazykeeper]

Venomous all the way No voids,just my 2 cents

[Crotalus75]

The KS venomous forum is full of punks.

[Mustangrde1]

Well Nerd just hit my list of do not buy from.

[TheRedDragon]

I'm disgusted by their support of venomoids, ugh, I've blacklisted them as well. :mad:

[Lrptls]

venomoids are one of the sadest things people have done to animals, thats so sick. i hate those pictures of them free handling the snakes like that, they look like they are fake, rubber snakes. to me there not real at all cause there not them selves.
kingsnake and nerd is crap!

[Mustangrde1]

OK SOME OF YOU AND YOU KNOW WHO HAVE BEEN BUGGING ME ABOUT THE PETETION .... THIS IS A ROUGH AND I MEAN ROUGH START TO IT BUT IT IS IN THE LINE FOR WHAT WERE SHOOTING FOR. AS SOON AS THE FINAL PRODUCT IS OUT YOU WILL SEE IT ON HERE TOO. BUT JUST TO WET YOUR MOUTH. HERE IS THE ROUGH DRAFT.......

We as concerned members of the herpetological community find the surgical alteration of venomous snakes to be a practice that can be cruel and inhumane and potentially life threatening to the handler or bystanders. We pray you to not allow or condone the sales of these animals through or in your state or on any {Website, Magazine or Reptile Shows, Private Party Transactions} within your State's jurisdiction without proper proof of the surgery being performed by a Licensed Qualified Veterinary Surgeon registered with the The American Veterinary Medical Association.
We ask that any and all of these Altered animal be accompanied by a Notarized sworn affidavit from the Veterinary Surgeon that conducted the operation as well as copies of all medical records. We ask that the Veterinary Surgeon certifies that animal to be harmless and incapable of ever again delivering a venomous bite.

We ask that in order to sell any of these altered animals on or within your State on any {Website, Magazine, Reptile Shows or Private Party Transaction} that the vendor/seller provide proof upon request for verification of the Veterinary Surgeon who performed the alteration as so the buyer may contact the Veterinary office for confirmation. This information should be provided to any employee of your State and to the {Website, Magazine or Reptile Shows, Private Parties} for verification.



We put this to you as it is known that these surgical procedures are performed by unlicensed person and without proper use of narcotics for the relief of pain and suffering along with post surgical infections that this causes great pain and suffering to the animals.

This pain and suffering is animal cruelty and is an unneeded procedure and not warranted for the animals health or well being. This Surgery is performed to render a venomous snake harmless and with cases in point to show that in time the animal if the surgery was not performed completely can again be capable of producing venom and delivering a fatal bite. This can and does pose a risk to the handler and or any bystanders and is a matter of public health and safety.



With many State as well as Federal laws pertaining to Surgical standards and Pain and suffering to animals we ask you to not allow any animal without the above mentions documentation and verification of legal surgery performed to be sold through your state or any {Website, Magazine or Reptile Shows Private Party Transactions} within your jurisdiction.


AGAIN THAT IS A ROUGH DRAFT.......

[Crotalus75]

For the most part it seems like the main proponents of the venomoid craze are those individuals who are not very deeply involved with venomous herpetoculture. Just an observation....

[Mustangrde1]

OR IN IT FOR MONEY

[Crotalus75]

Scott,

I think that you have a fantastic start. There is a little wording that I would change here and there, but looking good. Do you mind if I give it a proof read and send you a couple suggestions?

[Mustangrde1]

Tad there are others working it now , like i said its very rough draft...

[kevyn]

You guys really need to read some the opinions of some of the gurus regarding venomoids on the Bob Cl... forums. It is truly disturbing. It's pretty pro-venomoid there. They are very quick to call anyone with a anti-venomoid opinion there "uninformed". MSTT (I think) from here, is one of the few voices of reason there and impossible for even them to call her uninformed. The NERD thing is no shock. I know that a few people there are venomoid keepers.

[Crotalus75]

I've been there.....it's tragic. Thats what were up against......the innumerable masses of people with a fringe interest in venomous herpetoculture. These are the sort of folks that are eager to jump on the venomoid train instead of having respect for these animals and learning how to handle them properly.

[kevyn]

I would like to say, that I'm not against the animals themselves and I don't see them as any less or deserving of any less respect or compassion. I pity them and if one came my way for proper care or a rescue I wouldn't hesitate to take in a venomoid. I won't buy them though, and won't support anyone selling them or performing the procedure.

[Crotalus75]

I agree with you. It's not the animals fault that they were abused. I wouldn't hesitate to give or find a venomoid a home as long as no money changed hands to support this trade.

[Mustangrde1]

It is not the animals fault ofcourse they didnt say hey Mr Shade Tree Hack. Please put me under your pocket knife and take out my venom gland i really dont need it and you want to freehandle me. Whoever or whatever you believe created life certainly did not make them venomoid that is a product of mans ego. They do not deserve it. Now where exactly is this Bob Clark forum. We all know im not afraid to take people on and I am informed.

[BWSmith]

Here is the BC forum
http://www.bobclark.com/bcforums/

They dont care for me there anymore :D


And yes, NERD and Kara (KLG) work with voids. I don't know if they buy them voided or have the surgury done though. *shrug**

[crazykeeper]

Mabye just me but i could not find anything on voids,,mabye just not looking in the right place???Lets keep the fight going!!!

[Mustangrde1]

could not find anything either,,,, Drat maybe when im not so tired and covered in drywall and paint i will just have to start something.,,, seems to me like its more of a boide forum.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

The thread named Venomoids (http://www.bobclark.com/bcforums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20748&FORUM_ID=1&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=Venomoid&Forum_Title=Bob+Clark+Main) just may help you folks out there...:)

[Derrick]

just a quick question. I've followed all the void discussions here and have read that the surgery isnt always 100%. Whats going to happen when someone with a void get tagged and dies as a result? Who's liable?

[Mustangrde1]

Interesting question.. But the one thing for sure is lawyers will be having a field day... Speculation would say that the Seller would be held liable for selling a dangerous animal under false representaion of it is safety. Possibly the supplier of the animal to the seller could be as well. all speculation mind you but this is a sue happy country.

I know in the past people have said well if a hot bites you then you can go after the seller, That is false you knowingly willingly purchased an animal that is known to be dangerous thus you accept the reponcibility. With a Void however you are buying what amounts to a safe product that has been told to you is safe thus you may have grounds for finacial awards.

[jay72]

Can you believe this quote from their site:



"Kevin free handles all of his venomoid snakes. Venomous snakes are not for the novice. Making hotties venomoid is a heated discussion. For those who feel strongly against the practice I respect you feelings, but for me, in captivity, venomoid is the way to go."

And this one:

"I got the chance to hold this animal. It was just like holding a kingsnake, but much more intense. As for the snake it just cruised around in my hands like nothing was any different"

This is totally sickening. The people who they are appealing to (designer python collectors, etc) will buy right into this. And BTW what does this mean " Kevin free handles all of his venomoid snakes". How else would one handle a venomoid? And this one "It was just like holding a kingsnake, but much more intense". That sounds like he is only appealing to his own personal gratification. What would he expect a venomoid to feel like?

It is very frustrating for me to debate this topic on that site because you are dealing with people who pretty much have no experience in keeping hots and really do not understand what or how to get into working with hots. Even if most of them did, they are approaching the issue differently. To them it is a matter of having something 'neat' or 'different'. They could not care less how many snakes suffered, died, its a matter of there own ego and personal gratification. How anybody could look at a snake with two big scars and sunken in heads and not feel any sympathy should say it all about the person. Very disturbing site.

Sloane Russeck

[Crotalus75]

I thought that those comments were particularly absurd myself. Heres a scary thought........what if these large mass market dealers decided to push venomoids as the new craze instead of python morphs???

[Gregg M]

To me it is more intense to handle a hot on a some hooks than it is to handle any type of non-ven or void........
But that intense feeling seems to pass and when it all boils down hots are just snakes that need the same care and devotion that any living creature should get when in captivity........
They just warrent a bit more repect because of the damage they can do.......
The big majority of people not against voids are non-hot keepers that do not have the skill, training, or mind set to handle the real thing......... I am not generalizing non-hot keepers in any way........
There are many non hot keepers here that have as much respect for these creatures as the hot keepers do....
One can not train themselves to handle hots by using voids......... It will teach them nothing but bad habbits.........
I feel the only way to train for hots is to train with hots........
I hate when someone suggest to use some species of non-hot to train with........
You will never have the same respect and use the same caution with a non hot, no matter how good your imagination is........
Most people that get into keeping hots, soon realize it really is not for them........
Training with real hots can bring that realization before someone goes out and buys one.....

[creepiecrawlie]

That, I hope will not happen. I think that pythons produce better colors than venomoids plus people normally (I hope) would think twice before buying a venomoid. I know that because when I ask my dad "Hey dad can I get a venomoid?" I do it just for fun. He yells NO! and the whole house shakes (not really). I personally think that the purple albino phase of a retic is the most beautiful snake.

[Gregg M]

Hey Creepie,
I think you mean to say venomous........LOL....... Your opinion on hots not producing beautiful coloration is just that...... Your opinion........
To me, all snakes hot or not are beautiful in their own way....... How can you not love the color of an indigo snake or the pattern of a gaboon?????
Or the color of a yellow eyelash, and the the pattern of a retic?????
I think you need to look at more pics of hots and non hots........
There are so many beautiful snake out there......

[jay72]

The argument that people use that voids will help them train for the real thing is so absurd it is ridiculous. When they compare it to declawing a cat is also ridiculous. I am against that to, however vets declaw cats, not backyard butchers. If backyard buthers were declawing cats, I am sure plenty of people would speak up.

Another argument that I have heard is that hot keepers frown upon void keepers because of their own egos. I keep hots and I am associated with a wildlife facility that has one of the largest collections of venomous reptiles in S. Florida. Dedicating your time to working with, learning about the proper care of these animals is a very rewarding experience. It is a dedication and commitment. To me void keepers as a rule want instant gratification. They are not interested in devoting time and respecting an animal for the way God created it. They are more interested in handling their new fixed rattlesnake or cobra to satisfy their own egos. So yes, I do frown upon people who do not want to put the time in and take the easy and cruel way out. It is the animal that always seems to suffer due to peoples negligence.

For human beings to surgically 'customize' these snakes to meet their own selfish needs and not have any remorse or guilt as to what they are doing is beyond my own comprehension.


Sloane Russeck

[bubba]

The Humane Society of the United States is already trying to stop private individuals from owning exotic reptiles. This inhumane and bizarre practice of creating "venomoids" just adds fuel to their fire.

[Mustangrde1]

Well I found the Bob Clark thread LMAO you all know what i did... I think the Modreators over there need to learn respect for new members and to not shoot off their mouths about Knowledge or Credentials before the speak... This should be fun.

[JHherpetofauna]

to begin with...Why would you alter ANY animal to fit your needs?

[Gregg M]

JH, I have ask pro-vemoiders that same question and I have never heard a justifiable reason yet........ I hate when they get into that whole education thing....... That is one of the lamest excuses I ever heard and 99% of the people who say that they use them for education are lieing...... They never did a stitch of education work........ It is just a short cut from having to do the things needed to do, to safely maintain venomous animals....... It is a punks way of doing thing and I could not take someone seriously if they keep voids........ There are a hundred reasons why they do this void thing but not one of them is justifiable...... Its just BS.....

[beagle]

I was just over at Kingsnake and I've got to admit the venomoid craze is pretty bad over there, sick to tell you the truth. Not to mention I was looking at the classifieds and there was a venomoid Copperhead. Now that's sad!! You know that the practice is getting pretty bad when they start preforming this alteration not operation on the poor little old copperhead

[kevyn]

I brought up the venomiod topic on an Aussie herp site I belong to, and they had no idea what I was meant by 'venomoid'. When I explained it to them, they were horrified. They couldn't believe it, and were shocked that this was legal in North America. It was pointed out by one of the moderators of the site, that this procedure was highly illegal in Australia is considered as abusive and excessively cruel. They couldn't understand why anyone would want to do this for any reason. I had to agree with them.

[kevyn]

Well I found the Bob Clark thread LMAO you all know what i did... I think the Modreators over there need to learn respect for new members and to not shoot off their mouths about Knowledge or Credentials before the speak... This should be fun.

BTW you've already been shredded by the "expert" hot keepers over there that have kept nothing but pythons and boas. Guess you've been told.;)

[Mustangrde1]

LOL ya i love being told and asked for credentials. They seam more hung up on the little peice of paper or letters before a name then hands on knowledge. To them it appears to be cool to own a void or work with them, Bet the have high dollar cars too and little wankers. No balls to stand up for what is right . I would love to see what people in India would do to someone who tried to harm a Cobra over there. and yes from what I have seen the US is the big void spot, EGOS and Show Offs. Its sad. Then again im just a stupid hot keeper that doesnt know anything, or atleast dont let on how much i know and let the "EXPERTS"make fools of themself slowly.I know of one True expert that told me once. " If you can explain what your talking about in 5 minutes to lay persons then your study wasnt wourth a damn"

[BWSmith]

LOL, Medical School holds no water for herp knowledge ;)

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by Lrptls
venomoids are one of the sadest things people have done to animals, thats so sick. i hate those pictures of them free handling the snakes like that, they look like they are fake, rubber snakes. to me there not real at all cause there not them selves.
kingsnake and nerd is crap!

What about the cat you get declawed? What about the dog you get fixed or get the vocal cords cut? Those are just as bas as a venemoid in my opinion. A cat without it's claws is like a human without it's toes, he has to learn everything it knows about walking, running, climbing...

Unfortunatly, I do not see a difference betwen a venemoid and a declawed cat... None of those should be tollerated.

As long as there will be money to make out of it, it will be present. Plus, you can be sure they will try to proove that it makes the snake less dangerous to the humans...

[Gregg M]

Siresap,
You are 100% correct...... Declawing of cats is not a good idea, nor is the cutting of vocal chords of a dog, but atleast the operations are done by licensed vets...... They are cared for and given drugs to releive the pain...... And I am pretty sure the mortality rate is ummmm 0%...... Also when you "fix" a dog or cat, it is for its own good..... The dog or cat lives a longer, healthier life and there are not a bunch of unwanted puppies or kittens running around the streets or in a shelter where they will be put down........ Personally I do not keep cats because I do not want my furniture clawed...... The same should go for venomous snakes....... If you are not willing to deal with the responsability of keeping a fully venomous snake, dont get one!!!! Plain and simple....... So yes, there is a huge differance between a declawed cat that was done by a vet and given the proper meds and a venomoid snake that was done in some jerks basement.......

[Siretsap]

I really doubt it's for it's own good we get a cat or dog fixed, it's more for our own good, cause we don't want them pissing all over the place to mark their territory or taking a certain pleasure to our legs... As for the longer healthier life, it's mainly cause you lessen the chances of your cat or dog getting a std from an other cat or dog outside... But yeah if you look at it this way, people with a fixed cat will have it in the house more often if it doesn't always scream to go outside to get laid so lesser chance of an accident outside... But health wise, it doesn't change anything on the cat or dog.

I am 100% in accordance with you on the fact that there really musn't be a qualified vet out there that can do that venemoid thing. Plus, what is the fun of having a venemous snake if you take off it's main attribut???

Anyhow, I don't own any hots or venemous, and prob never will since it's not allowed where I live, plus I would prob be a wuss and never try to move it anywhere... lol

oh and the risk for a castration on an animal, well my gf works in a clinic for cats and just last weekend, they lost a cat just after a fixing... Sucks when that quite low percentage of deaths do happen. The vet who operated on the cat has been a vet for a long time and it was her 1st loss of a cat by castration.

[Gregg M]

That sucks about the cat...... I wonder if it was a reaction to the suff they make them sleepy with........ There is some risk with any operation but it is much less when done by a vet....... Well anyway, like I said I am not a fan of altering animals to fit our needs so that is why I only keep reptiles......LOL...... They fit my needs perfectly the way they are.......

[marisa]

Actually dogs and cats are made to be pregnant A LOT. Sometimes a cat or dog left unspayed can encounter what I believe is called "false pregnancy" Here is a qoute from: http://www.canismajor.com/dog/spayneut.html

"Repeated heat cycles subject the reproductive system to uterine and mammary cancers and uterine infections. Some bitches experience false pregnancies that can be a bother to deal with and uterine infections that can be fatal."

That was just one website, you can find a thousand others that agree with those thoughts though. So in some cases, it is indeed for the animals own good, as cats and dogs evolved to have constant litters which is why they come into heat so very often. By preventing this or allowing them to get pregnant each time (obviously not a good choice) you are also lowering the risk of cancers, infection, etc.

Marisa

[Siretsap]

In the webcite you put there, the main reasons are for our own benefits... yes the can be some, but it isn't 100% either... There are a zillion studies that contraditc each other.. There is even a book of a vet that explains clearly what is a must to do with your pet and what is only there for the money and declawing and nutering for male dogs are bot only there for the money... and the well being of us.

As for the female, well I know many friends with female dogs who are still alive after many many years (considering the dog's life expectancy) and are still healthy even if they are not fixed. I know some will be subject to have some complications...

[C.m.pyrrhus]

I really doubt it's for it's own good we get a cat or dog fixed,

Truthfully, any vet can tell you it is. Female dogs, for one, are at risk of pyometra after every heat cycle. Left untreated, pyometra is a fatal condition, the surgery and concurrent treatment is extremely costly and because of this is one of the main reasons that spaying (ovariohysterectomy) is recommended at a young age. Male dogs are at risk of several cancers, it helps with some behavioral problems and it reduces the risk of benign prostrate hypertrophy later in life. It eliminates the possibility of testicular cancer, it reduces the incidence of fight wounds, hit by car
trauma and other injuries associated with looking for and finding female dogs in heat. Neutering also reduces the risk of perianal adenomas. Not to mention the so many damn animals brought into the the world that cannot be properly taken care of. In my own opinion dogs and cats are feral animals that truly need to be dealt with by means of population control as well.

The animals that pass away usually die due to complications from anesthesia and surgery, not the surgical removal of the reproductive organs. Also, they are seen by a licensed vet for their surgery. Something that must be done by law, much like any surgery such as venomoid surgery, declaw or whatnot.

I have seen declaw operations done on cats, nothing about it looks good or enjoyable for the cat. Post operative care is easy and simple to do for the owners, but for the cat the pain and cumbersome nature of the surgery is something that I agree is a hardship upon their life's. For me I see it as a useless and cruel operation. But that is far from a venomoid surgery where a huge portion of the head is removed, along with the start of the digestion system which aids in the health and livelihood of the snake. Aside from operations much like the neuter and spay that do benefit the animal, the removal of venom glands plays no beneficial role in the life of the animal. It is simply done to "protect" people from the risk of a bite from a venomous creature.

There is, as I stated, no beneficial reason a venomous snake be turned into this poor useless creature. The only reason that the surgery even exists is so that people can handle them without the worry (and risk...?) of an envenomating and possibly deadly bite. This to me as a logical and sound thinking person, seems to mean that only egotistical and irresponsible owners are the result of venomoid surgeries. Prove to anyone that this is not the case. Cannot be done.

Even licensed vets can mess up and produce a 100% lethal animal after a surgery. There are cases in which snakes have regrown part of the venom delivery systems (which is something I am looking into as far as "proof" goes). Being that the bulk of venomoids are done by unlicensed persons without proper medical aid and protocol, there is a bigger risk for a person to be envenomated. It is to simple for the average irresponsible keeper with these creatures to simply not take the time to properly train and care for a true venomous snake, which should be implied upon any venomous snake collecting by all means. In all logical thinking, it seems highly pointless that this method of relating to venomous snakes still goes on in this day and age.

[Crotalus75]

C.M.pyrrhus,

That has to be one of the most thought out and logical posts I have seen! It's great to see so many people here that stand up for whats right.

I just don't understand why people can't appreciate animals and nature the proper way without causing harm. Human beings are quick to destroy any beautiful thing that they cannot understand in their misguided attempts to "appreciate" or "enjoy".

[marisa]

c.m. pyrrhus thank you. your first paragraph was exactly what I was trying to get across in my meager and badly worded explanation! lol. good post.

Marisa

[BWSmith]

guess I have to go back and read it now LOL

[Mustangrde1]

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/55

That has to still be one of the best Articles to illustrate the NON-Medical conditions these animals go through. since when is Newpaper and wood considered steryl or clay and such a thin low body weight specimen.

[MsTT]

Declawing is fairly comparable to the venomoid operation both in terms of postoperative pain and being an elective, owner-benefit only surgery. Declawing is considered a cruel and illegal procedure in the UK, and UK vets who come to our US conferences are quite horrified that any of their American colleagues are still doing this operation. Many American vets refuse to declaw for ethical reasons.

Many species of mammals do receive real health benefits from being spayed or neutered, some more so than others. In addition it is a humane measure to prevent the birth of animals that cannot be properly cared for. No vet refuses to spay or neuter, and some volunteer to do it for rescued animals who have no owners to pay for the operation, for humane reasons.

However if some backyard breeder was doing spay/neuter operations in their garage on newspaper and clay using cheap tools from Home Depot, that would not be to any patient's benefit. The perpetrators would rightfully be punished for animal cruelty. It is unfortunate that it is much harder to get officials to prosecute similar cases when they involve venomous snakes instead of cute fuzzy kittens and puppies.

[Mustangrde1]

So true Tanith.. BTW ive been getting food for your upcomming children. mostly dekay and ribbons, rednecks are a baby kings best friend.

[Lrptls]

quick question about venemoids...
when they do this, they just remove the venom glands and leave the fangs right? or do they take the fangs too? just wondering

[Cruciform]

Why wouldn't someone just start out with a snake with less potent venom.

The snake encyclopedia I picked up says that Wagleri only produces localized pain and swelling for 2 to 3 days. So you're hurting like heck but at least you live to learn from your mistake.

Then again there are some doozy mistakes in this book from translating the original Spanish to English.

Anyone with personal experience or more info on Waglers?

[Mustangrde1]

Michele. They can remove the fangs all day long but like sharks they regrow them.. Pointless to remove the fangs . They remove the venom gland and duct canal.

[jay72]

Cruciform,

I would not believe what was in that book. Different people react differently to snake venoms.

Sloane Russeck

[cobraman]

" Here is the BC forum
http://www.bobclark.com/bcforums/"


Is it just me, ordid they remove the thread? I can't seem to find it.

[Mustangrde1]

Ray.
The thread is still there but now LOCKED.... Interesting they locked it down directly after you provided proof of the deaths do to the surgery. My guess is now that facts to the horrible outcome and dangers of this are starting to emerge that they no longer wish to talk about it as it no longer is something they can fight and or argue with others about...CAN WE SAY ANOTHER KINGSNAKE.

[Mustangrde1]

I was just thinking. There are many X-Dealers in voids Perhaps if some of us contacted them they might post their Information here so we can start having a verified place to compile factual data on the deaths and illness's post surgery. Its a thought If any will and would be willing to do so.

[BWSmith]

well, only a matter of time before a couple of the BCers come here to troll.

[Mustangrde1]

Let um come. The one thing nice about this site I noticed vs that one is there it appears only 3 people care to post and try and insult. Here you get people that work with many species posting and adding to conversation. The more posters the better as it challenges you to think and research more. Look at this { venomous forum } you have not only just hot keepers on it but so many other site members posting to it and trying to help and learn. Now if you ask me thats what this is all about the challenge to become better keepers and the want to learn. Not the want to get brownie points and a title under your avatar. notice none under our names!!!

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

"venomoids are one of the sadest things people have done to animals."



Really? Have you ever seen a stunt animal from a circus close up?(Possibly one of the saddest due to the animals having to face this everyday of their lives.) Have you ever seen a crippled cat due to the fact of declawing; Declawing is actually an amputation of the last joint of your cat's 'toes' being that their nails are practically adhered to the bone. Even then before that cat heals, the cat would still have to use its feet to walk, jump, and scratch in its litter box regardless of the pain it is experiencing. There are many other things that very saddening due to human interferences and joys..
(Dr. Christianne Schelling, animal veterinarian)


"OR IN IT FOR MONEY"


Many things in this hobby are only done for money purposes, if this wasn't the case morphs wouldn't be highly sought after once a buyer has robbed several dozen banks. I find this more saddening because most of people who buy these morphs degrade the less expensive animals. Even the same animals of the species 'it's' morph is. This whole hobby is starting to be very degrading..


"How can you not love the color of an indigo snake"


heh, I personally find these one of the ugliest snakes the US has.. ' Oo it's iridescent' ::Twirls finger::


"I hate when they get into that whole education thing....... That is one of the lamest excuses I ever heard and 99% of the people who say that they use them for education are lieing"


How do you know?
I have actually used my -moids in educational talks at my school and other local areas.
You of course can get attention of children with ball pythons or large snakes, but to people like me? I want to see buzz worms, you can not substitute any snake for a rattlesnake, and you do want to keep your audience in awe, right? Now you wouldn't want a hot around either because alot of people cause alot of distractions and accidents do happen, so, a rattler would be in order. Being said, you should always treat a -moid as a hot at a show, the purpose is to get the correct message across, so I think for educational purposes moids are of use. That's just me though..


"Declawing of cats is not a good idea.. And I am pretty sure the mortality rate is ummmm 0% "


I agree, it isn't a good idea, and the mortality rate may be 0% but crippling is a very common factor. The pain is long and strenuous. Nearly everything a cat does in it's life includes its claws, and even while the few weeks of healing the cat still must walk on its feet..


"as cats and dogs evolved to have constant litters which is why they come into heat so very often."


Er..Yeah, sorta.. Domestic cats and dogs were typically created. Most wild canines and felines are seasonal while female domestics are spontaneous ovulatory.. So I dunno' if that would claimed 'evolved'.


"The animals that pass away usually die due to complications from anesthesia and surgery, not the surgical removal of the reproductive organs."


Isn't that the same way most surgery "victims" die? Including -Moids?


"There are cases in which snakes have regrown part of the venom delivery systems (which is something I am looking into as far as "proof" goes)."


I would like some scientifically, evidential proof of this as well.. Not one person who I have talked to about venomoids ever came to encounter this. Well, except -moid haters.. I know a guy down in San Antonio, M. Bishop, who has been dealing with hots and -moids for a very long time. He even does the operations himself, and has told me that not a one animal has died on him or his partner. His animals, venom and moid alike, all look exceptional. Very interesting guy, been all over the place, and is one of the first few who have produced RhinoxGaboon. (Greg, you might know him).
In general, I dont really have an opinion on -moids. Ive kept both, Ive like both the same. The animals acted in no different from each other (On a general sense-Different animals different acts) and good surgeries go unnoticed. Its all a personal matter, I think. I do prefer a hot but this is just because I prefer natural state animals. (I dislike morphs and hybrids).
I would like these facts as well, Scot. All I ever hear is how many die and the such and these are all from the Cons. And it seems the only people who stand up for moids, typically dont even keep them, or know anything in this area of the field(Hots/moids).
Im actually surprised at how many posts on here which have survived for several weeks, because it's all repost of the same things being said, and nearly none are on the pro side. I'm surprised at how this is entertaining for you guys. I just figured I should post being I keep both and have equal feelings for each side, just so you guys can have something to say, ya' know. Providing for the economy. =)
All animals are at risk to anesthesia, mammals are less effected (Yet, still are) mainly for the sole reason that we generally understand this. To an extent.. The only way for us to further understand reptilian medicines are to use them. Sure, it may not be for what you like, but hell.. I dont see anyone in the herp community waiving rights for the animals in LD testings. Or other animals with any other testings. Doesn't local anesthetic (2% Lidocaine?) block painful stimulus in localized areas? Surgery point.. Isn't a pain relieving analgesic used to help stop pain during operation proceedures along with anesthesia? Can't the right amount of buprenorphine stop or regulate the pain in reptiles? What about butorphanol? Er..? isoflurane? So forth an so on..

Next thing is everyone's saying they will end up in a 15 yr old's hand.. Well, as I hear it, laws apply to -moids as they were to a hot. If a seller sells to a kid, he will be charged, if caught the same way he'd be charged if it were hot. Not to mention, I do not know very many kids willing to cough up 400+ dollars to intertain a friend.. Hell, I dont know very many people who would do that..
State laws that revolve around hot(s) are the same for any moid of the same species. Not to mention, I don't hear much of anyone none herp oriented keeping -moids. So on and so forth..
I have yet to see any facts, sources, evidence of any hot dying from its food source that lack venom, which is often called out when someone mentions -moid.
Ah well, Im tired..

[Mustangrde1]

Xain . Two very good examples of Voids still being hot are 1 the Liverpool England bite and secound the PNG Black Ray Hunter posted on BC forum. That Paupan I can speak from first hand experiance and say it was without a doubt brought in as a VOID it was to be sold as a VOID had it been sold fast it would have gone to someone as a VOID its bite was hot and would have killed this i have no doubt on. There are other memebers who are aware of regeneration or botched surgeries perhaps one in the same so i will let them post to that.

Why there has not been many venomoid related envenomations is very simple call your hospital and ask them how many venomoids bites they have call any hospital and ask you will here O or whats a venomoid .. Now ask them how many venomous bites they have had? If a snake injects venom it is by all counts called a venomous snake bite regardless if the owner calls it a venomoid its still a Naja ssp , Crotalus ssp etc etc and thus is written up as such. Venomous is venomous period in the eyes of a bite report or medical report.

As to statistics on surgery again i site what ray hunter posted on Bc forums.
The bottom line of all that is that out of 10 snakes:
1 died during procedure
4 died of post op infections
1 was treated for infection and lived
1 was still hot after "surgery"
and
3 were returned ok, and sold

The way I read that is 4 dead 1 more would have been dead if not treated so total 5 and 1 still hot so 6 of 10 either dead or hot pretty crappy odds if you ask me. And why whould a person want even 1 animal to die so they can play with a void. If you love the animals you would not want any dead. Unless ofcourse you have no morals or cares for the hobby you hold so dear.

If you think anyone that is a HACK is going to give any credable information out your mistaken as they themselves know they are in violation or possible violations of laws. They know Fish and Wildlife officers are over taxed and over extended so they are very low on their radar. So they can do these procedures without much fear of reprecusion. for now...

[M_surinamensis]

One small thing...

The website those photos were on was not NERD's. The words written down were not NERD's. The photos, if they were placed into a different context, might elicit an entirely different response.

Nobody from NERD has come forth publically as of yet to address any of the concerns raised over some third party anonymous (and brainless) interpretation of their facility. They can't really be held responsible if someone takes away all the wrong impressions, there are people simply unwilling to be educated.

Kevin, Kara and the entire NERD crew are all good, responsible people. They're not perfect people but they're close... they do a few things which I disagree with a bit (I don't like morphs at all for instance) but they do these things honestly and explain themselves truthfully and openly. There's also not a stupid person involved with the entire operation, so the page leaves a lot of questions as to who the creator is and why they came away from a facility tour with the impressions he did. I've toured NERD, I'm sure others have as well... never once was I given the kind of information this person supposedly was. My sucpicion is that, rather than NERD acting irresponsibly, the page creator is just not that bright and was unable to comprehend what he/she was being told.

[Mustangrde1]

Seamus I know you know them how about asking Kevin or Kara to come post here and explain it to us. I for one respected nerd till i read that. Now I am very curious

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

..But are were these actual, once upon a time -moids or just a sales ad? I mean, anyone could claim a hot being a -moid to a seller who hasn't seen the animal in action.. Hell, If I were crooked, Id sell a hot to someone wanting a -moid.. I could use an extra 3+ hundred dollars in my pocket.. The one in Liver pool.. Was this an all out surgery? Complete removal? Or just another false advertisement? Hell.. Just give me the article..



Why there has not been many venomoid related envenomations is very simple call your hospital and ask them how many venomoids bites they have call any hospital and ask you will here O or whats a venomoid .. Now ask them how many venomous bites they have had? If a snake injects venom it is by all counts called a venomous snake bite regardless if the owner calls it a venomoid its still a Naja ssp , Crotalus ssp etc etc and thus is written up as such. Venomous is venomous period in the eyes of a bite report or medical report.



I understand this. And somehow figured this, my question is: Where exactly does yours and everyone elses statistics come from? Being they are eluded..



As to statistics on surgery again i site what ray hunter posted on Bc forums.
The bottom line of all that is that out of 10 snakes:
1 died during procedure
4 died of post op infections
1 was treated for infection and lived
1 was still hot after "surgery"
and
3 were returned ok, and sold

The way I read that is 4 dead 1 more would have been dead if not treated so total 5 and 1 still hot so 6 of 10 either dead or hot pretty crappy odds if you ask me. And why whould a person want even 1 animal to die so they can play with a void. If you love the animals you would not want any dead. Unless ofcourse you have no morals or cares for the hobby you hold so dear.



Eh, I'm sorry but this here isn't a very valid source for me. Why? Because, 1: These were not his animals. 2: He I believe is too, against -moids 3: So far Im only reading what is being wrote by "Con-moids" (I like this, heh) 4: I'm not seeing any source. 5: I do not even know where any of this is coming from. Im wanting sources, tests, studies, ect. I'm only reading words written by people who hate these things.



If you think anyone that is a HACK is going to give any credable information out your mistaken as they themselves know they are in violation or possible violations of laws. They know Fish and Wildlife officers are over taxed and over extended so they are very low on their radar. So they can do these procedures without much fear of reprecusion. for now...



Actually I would. If he was worried about a violation with the law, he would not have told me about him doing this. He is a person I trust. I like and respect. Very knowledgeable man. I also believe him, because of the animals he posses. Sure, some may have died, but
why would he lie to me about this after he knows I could care less if they were moids or not?

[M_surinamensis]

It's one of those situations where I know them because they were in New England and obviously reccognizeable... they might reccognize me if they saw me as "That one guy... the short one with no hair." or they might not know me at all...

However, I'll send off an email. They might decide to participate if it can be demonstrated that people haven't already formed conclusions that they aren't willing to change. Or they might not, no offense to anyone here and I'd be very interested in a direct response myself but they don't owe any of us any answers.

[Mustangrde1]

Um they were his animals under his care until sold. You asked for evidance I gave it to you. If you wish to discount it then what good is it to post evidance you ask for.

[Mustangrde1]

This is the coding used by DR's for description of bites I see no place VENOMOID listed its either venomous or nonvenomous.

ICD9 Code Description

E906.2 BITE OF NONVENOMOUS SNAKES AND LIZARDS
E906.4 BITE OF NONVENOMOUS ARTHROPOD
E905 VENOMOUS ANIMALS AND PLANTS AS THE CAUSE OF POISONING AND TOXIC REACTIONS
E905.0 VENOMOUS SNAKES AND LIZARDS CAUSING POISONING AND TOXIC REACTIONS
E905.1 VENOMOUS SPIDERS CAUSING POISONING AND TOXIC REACTIONS
E905.4 CENTIPEDE AND VENOMOUS MILLIPEDE (TROPICAL) BITE CAUSING POISONING AND TOXIC REACTIONS
E905.5 OTHER VENOMOUS ARTHROPODS CAUSING POISONING AND TOXIC REACTIONS
E905.6 VENOMOUS MARINE ANIMALS AND PLANTS CAUSING POISONING AND TOXIC REACTIONS
989.5 TOXIC EFFECT OF VENOM
910.4 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF FACE, NECK, AND SCALP EXCEPT EYE, WITHOUT MENTION OF INFECTION
910.5 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF FACE, NECK, AND SCALP EXCEPT EYE, INFECTED
911.4 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF TRUNK, WITHOUT MENTION OF INFECTION
911.5 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF TRUNK, INFECTED
912.4 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF SHOULDER AND UPPER ARM, WITHOUT MENTION OF INFECTION
912.5 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF SHOULDER AND UPPER ARM, INFECTED
913.4 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF ELBOW, FOREARM, AND WRIST, WITHOUT MENTION OF INFECTION
913.5 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS, OF ELBOW, FOREARM, AND WRIST, INFECTED
914.4 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS, OF HAND(S) EXCEPT FINGER(S) ALONE, WITHOUT MENTION OF INFECTION
914.5 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS, OF HAND(S) EXCEPT FINGER(S) ALONE, INFECTED
915.4 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS, OF FINGERS, WITHOUT MENTION OF INFECTION
915.5 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF FINGERS, INFECTED
916.4 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS, OF HIP, THIGH, LEG, AND ANKLE, WITHOUT MENTION OF INFECTION
916.5 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS OF HIP, THIGH, LEG, AND ANKLE, INFECTED
917.4 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS, OF FOOT AND TOE(S), WITHOUT MENTION OF INFECTION
917.5 INSECT BITE, NONVENOMOUS, OF FOOT AND TOE(S), INFECTED
Go Back

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Well Scot, You should include that these were his in first place. I was just a tad mislead when you say "i site what ray hunter posted on Bc forums". That's just telling me you said what he said he said on a forum I don't attend.
Plus, I was looking for something more along the line than just someone writing the evidence.. I was kinda looking for articles, books, news lines, ya' know.. The normal stuff people use as evidence..

Afterall, I am 7' 3" biceps the size of an elephants leg, but I only wear a size 4.5 shoe. See what I mean?
By the way, I'm not trying to ridicule ya' or it's not that I don't believe you or Hunter. But a few words from a keeper and importer doesn't hold much water, If you get down to it. Again, no disrespect. I'm just a keeper.. heh..

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Heh, responded faster than I did. By chance, could you send me the link to that majig you were on?

[Mustangrde1]

Xain its the ICD { International classification of decease clinical modifications } Look it up on google its a pain to refind. If its out there its classified. Some that will make you die laughing too.

[MsTT]

Just a quick note here.

You can quite easily kill a mammal with improperly applied anesthesia. It is actually very difficult to kill a a sick reptile with gas anesthesia and nearly impossible to kill a healthy one that way. Reptiles that die on the operating table or shortly thereafter generally do *not* die from complications directly relating to gas anesthesia from compounds such as isoflurane, sevoflurane, etc.

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by Crotalus75
Ya.....I saw those sad looking pics........


and here:

http://www.tinygiants.com/NERD/misc.htm

It's funny, on the page he says "venomous snakes are not for novices" as if he actually keeps "venomous" snakes. If all his "hots" are venomoid, does he think he's some kind of professional? Anybody can wrangle with a gaboon or monocle cobra if it's a venomoid, it doesn't take any great skill. As long as you dont mind some fangs in you, nothing to it. "In captivity, venomoid is the way to go..." 'Scuse me while I puke.

AP

[snakeskin]

I'll hold the bucket for ya... :p

[marisa]

For one you guys are blaming NERD for this page. Are you BLIND? Its a page made by someone ELSE. Not NERD. Seamus Haleys post was right on. NERD is not responsible for how someone talks about their visit there. Just because they own voids doesn't mean they EVER told this person "its the only way to go" and such.

By saying "I'll puke" you are acting like people watching a news story. You blindly listen to what the news caster says without having ANY IDEA of what the truth is. Next time take a little time out to read the link, notice that its not NERDS link, and comprehend.

Marisa

[marisa]

P.S. Just to clarify I am against voids. I just do not understand how people can go so nuts about something that doesn't even belong to NERD (that website) without even READING it clearly.

Marisa

[psilocybe]

Marisa,

I acknowledge my mistake thinking NERD owned that page, but bottom line: that person took something away from their visit to NERD, and you can't tell me that a person who keeps venomoids isn't gonna have a pro-venomoid stance. If nerd only keeps venomoids, I'm sure they have nothing against it. I stick by my original post: Comments like that make me wanna puke.

AP

[snakeskin]

I'll hold the bucket for ya... :p

[marisa]

"that person took something away from their visit to NERD, and you can't tell me that a person who keeps venomoids isn't gonna have a pro-venomoid stance"

Oh so you are saying I cannot adopt an abused void in need of a home unless I also agree with the sugery? Thats ludacris. Of course I can. Is that the case here? No. But does that mean people like us who have NEVER EVER even spoken to NERD can say things like "oh blacklisted them" and "make me wanna puke"

No. Not in my eyes. That's juvinile badmouthing banter. If NERD comes to this thread and says "we support voids" thats a totally different scenario. But they haven't. And until they do I'll save my bad mouthing and assumptions for those who have voiced in this thread that they agree with voids.

Marisa

[Matt_K]

Just to remind you all, there have been a couple posts about this taken down already.. If you guys want to slander NERD or anyone else, please, take it to the BOI.. I'll leave this thread up for an hour so that those of you participating in the thread can read this, and hopefully understand why it will be taken down..