help with sick tree frogs

[CONCEPT03]

we have a 55 galon terrarium set up: dirt bottom, half moss on top, nice big clean water dish, pleanty of wall plants for hiding, red heat bulb, half screen lid for ventalation. It houses 1 giant american bull frog, 2 cuban tree frogs and 1 whites dumpy tree frog, 1 died last week.

And all but one are sick

First one of our whites dumpy was darker redish in color hung around the bottom dug himself holes to hide in. We thought he looked sick so we consulted a very trusted pet shop manager she said that he must be a male and is acting like a normal male would act. So we thought everything was fine, but then he died on a dish, where there was a little blood that came from him.

Then one of our cuban tree frogs began to act the same as the dumpy, hes still alive but VERY skinny and just clings to the side of the water dish all day. His eyes are really squinty too.

Now our other whites dumpy is acting the same, currled up on the bottom, yet still quite lime green. And the bull frog has lost his hugh appitite, and seems to have lost his abblity to move about, and now is shrinking due to not eating.

My one Cuban tree frog still seems to be fine :)
Please any suggestions on what to do ?? and why this is happinging???? we thought they had everything they needed.

[Double J]

Mixing frogs is the smoking gun here. These frogs all come from different parts of the world. They all carry with them different strains of bacteria and/or parasites in their bodies. A Cuban may be able to deal with it's parasite load....... but there is a good chance a dumpy will not, and vice versa. Even captive bred animals carry some sort of microbe with them. This is much like when the europeans brought disease to the new world. They could deal with it... but the natives had no immunitites to these alien microbes, and thousands died as a result. Sure..... sometimes these mixed tanks "work" for a few months... or sometimes a few years... but eventually... something stresses one or more of the frogs.. thereby weakening their immune systems, and ultimately killing them. I consider myself a decent frog keeper. I have experience with many species....... but I would never consider a mixed tank. There are just too many variables at stake..... I do not want to put my frogs at risk after knowng what know about the potential consequences.
Appetite and weight loss are often associated with an Aeromonas infection... this is what is commonly referred to as redleg. Sometimes frogs carry it with them with no ill effects... but it rears it's ugly head when a stressor may trigger it. Common symptoms of an Aeromonas infection include: listlessness, loss of appetite, excessive shedding and/or skin sloughing, and finally...... reddening of limbs. The terrible thing about "redleg"... is that when symptoms are noticed... it is often too late. Redleg, is also extremely contagious. Treatment of redleg is a stressful ordeal.... both for the keeper and the frog. Sometimes frogs pull through with veterinary assistance, but usually they will not make it. When a frog dies from "redleg" ..... a series of seemingly painful convulsions occur right before death.
"Trusted pet shop manager"............... Often pet shop workers, and even managers are instilled upon them a sort of assumed knowledge and experience. Yes... many do mean well.... but I have found more often than not, that pet shop people don't really know what they are talking about. My first piece of evidence of course.... is that it seems that this "trusted" pet shop manager did not attempt to steer you away from this mixed setup. That tells me right there that they really do not know what they are doing. Anybody who *really* know what they are talking about with respect to amphibian husbandry knows that mixed species enclosures are only for the vastly experienced hobbyists , and zoological institutions. I think this robs the pet shop owner of credibility. Again, I am sure he/she meant well... and there was no malice involved.
Concept........ you are not at fault here. It seems that the advice you recieved was from a well meaning, but unreliable source. I am sure your pet shop manager friend meant well, he just doesn't know any better, and is likely relying on old and outdated literature and/or anecdotal experience from running the pet store.
Here is what needs to be done. All frogs remaining MUST be seperated from one another. You can get some cheap food storage tupperware like containers from dollarama, or Wal-mart. These should be lined with moistened white paper towel and a disposable water dish like a clean margarine tub or something. Their tank should be taken apart, thoroughly cleaned and disinfected. Any live plants should be thrown out along with the substrate. If you have gravel which is expensive... it can be boiled and sterilized. From here... you have two choices.
1) you can ride this out.. paying close attention to the status of your frogs.
2) you can bring them to a vet.... and they can give you a diagnosis and discuss treatment.
Either choice is up to you. Vets can be expensive...... and treatment can be unfeasible.
In closing....... please understand that this is not a personal attack or anything silly like that. This is one hobbyist giving real advice to another. Take from this post what you wish. But remember... that even the best of us lose frogs. I have..... to a hot bedroom on a blistering summer day, to lids that were not "frogproof," and to silly little mistakes out of sheer accident and bad luck. A great frogger once said "Experience is equal to the number of frogs lost." So, in the least here..... you will have learned much from this experience, which will make you a better frog keeper in the future.
Good luck....................
I hope it is not an aeromonas infection... it could be something else.... but if there was reddening in the legs or any part of the body it is surely the culprit. When in doubt. Consult a veterinarian.
Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.
Double J

[LISA127]

I was reading this post and it sounds like a frog I rescued last week may have red leg, but I'm not sure. I took in a pac man frog about 6 days ago from a teenager who could not care for him any longer. It is a juvenile frog. In the time I have had him, I have not been able to get him to eat. Then tonight he was soaking in his water dish, and kept flopping on his back and kinda convulsing. He could not right himself, I had to do it for him. And it kept happening until finally I took him out of his water dish. Once on his moss substrate, it seemed to stop for the time being. What are your thoughts on this?
And for more info, I have him in a 15 gallon aquarium with a heat pad on one end and a shallow water dish in the middle. The substrate is peat moss with a couple of plastic plants. The previous owner was keeping him in a critter keeper with no heat.
Thanks for your opinions.

[Double J]

The flipping, loss of limb control and convulsing actually sound like a calcium deficiency. If it was redleg... the frog would have died right after the convulsions.
What calcium supplement was being used? You should switch to either Rep-Cal Calcium with D3 (fine grade), or Miner-All I. Sometimes this hapens if people use ONLY reptivite or herptivite..... which do not have sufficient calcium to be used on their own. Or.. if a lower quality supplement like Fluker's Cricket dust is used... that could be the key as well. It is crap.
Dust this frogs crickets EVERY feeding with either Rep-Cal or Miner-All. This should remedy this if he is still feeding. If worse comes to worse.... dissolve it into some water, and administer it via syringe orally. You could also try dissolving some in his water dish and soaking him in there. This may be a little less stressful.
Again, I am not a vet.. this is just some advice.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Double J

[LISA127]

I use Miner-All I for all my herps, so that is not a problem other than the fact that he will not eat.

[CONCEPT03]

i have two packmans an albino, and a pigmented, when i first got my pigmented he would not eat for about two weeks, the breeder i got him from recommended a small scoop of canned cat food. maybe try that. as for yours he may have been neglected, so he may still be stressed, just make sure he always has food available, and he is in the proper conditions, what are you heating his tank with? a substrate heater is best and will increase his metabolism.

[CONCEPT03]

lol, i never read the bottom of your post, give him time im sure he will be ok, what temp is your tank at? does he have a source of uvb? i keep mine at around 81-83 degrees celcius,

[LISA127]

well, i soaked him in warm water with Miner-All I dissolved in it, so we will see if that helps. He still won't eat. no, i do not have any uvb on him. Just the undertank heat pad. I guess I will try the cat food thing, although I'm wondering how that will get his attention when it doesn't move? Anyway, thanks for all the help. I really didn't plan on keeping him, just rescuing him and finding him a good home. But that will have to wait till he decides to eat, hopefully.

[Double J]

No UVB necessary.. they are fossorial frogs and are buried all the time anyway. The D3 from the supplement klike minerall or repcal is sufficient.
I keep my pacman at about 76.
Keep up the calcium baths and he should get better. He probably won't eat the catfood.
Pacmans that are lousy feeders are often shy. They either need to be put into a smaller cage where they will find the food easier, or in a place that doesnt get too much traffic. Lisas pacman has a calcium deficiency most likely.... so even if he wanted to feed, he can't control hs body proplery. But.. he should get better is she cotinues what she is doing
Good luck
Double J

[LISA127]

Thanks. I will continue with the calcium baths and see what happens. I know he soaked in his water dish all night, and I had dissolved Miner-All in it, so hopefully things will get better.

[AstroZombie]

Listen to Double J and PLEASE seperate your frogs a.s.a.p.:eek:

Cuban Tree Frogs have a skin toxin that can cause eyes to burn and noses to run in humans, imagine how irritated your White's and Bullfrog must feel ! Your Cuban who seems under the weather is probably just stressed from being housed with the other frogs.

Good Luck, and keep us updated !

:skull: Jenn:skull:

[LISA127]

Well, I have been soaking him in Miner All I baths for a couple days. Still no change. He continues to occassionally flip on his back, not able to right himself. I have to turn him over. And he still will not eat. He shows absolutely no interest. So I am basically at a loss. :(

[Double J]

it will take time. also... try giving him a bath in dilute plain pedialyte. if he is not eating, it will at least give him some electrolytes.
Double J

[LISA127]

Update on pacman:
The flipping on his back has decreased a little, I think. He is still not eating yet. Not on his own anyway. I held a superworm in a pair of tweezers and held it against his lips. After a couple of minutes he opened his mouth and I placed the superworm in there. He finished swallowing it. That was yesterday morning. This morning I did the same thing, and he again opened his mouth so I could put the worm in. He does not, however, make any attempt on his own to grab the worm if I just hold it in front of him, even with the worm wiggling and stuff. He will just open his mouth and wait for me to put it in. What is up with that? Will he ever eat on his own??? But....I'm just glad he got some food in him yesterday and today, since he was beginning to get too skinny.

[JeffT]

Holy crap man...

Your housing 3 different species of frog together, from different parts of the world, and you didnt expectr them to get sick???

seperate them all into their own quarentined cage (paper towel substrate). See if thee is a change in health, also if possible, get a fecal check on them all at the vet, its like $15.

[JeffT]

Holy crap man...

Your housing 3 different species of frog together, from different parts of the world, and you didnt expect them to get sick???

seperate them all into their own quarentined cage (paper towel substrate). See if thee is a change in health, also if possible, get a fecal check on them all at the vet, its like $15.

[CONCEPT03]

up date on the frogs, the dumpy made it, the bullfrog made it but the two cubans died :(. well... i geuss i know now not to trust pet store staff ANY pet store staff, oh well hard lesson learned