Just an idea... for both sides.

[herpetological]

Me and Scott were just having a discussion.... Amazing yeah, I know. LOL's!!! Anyway, the biggest issue on Venomoids is that much of the surgery conducted is done by non-verterinarians.(Being nice) We have already discussed the issues of ethics, morals etc. Let's put that aside. I would like to develop a petition which would propose a law requiring that any sale of an altered venomous species be accompanied with a notarized statement that verifies the surgery in question was conducted by a recognized veterinarian. I still haven't changed my mind on the issue however, it should satisfy both sides of the venomoid issue. I would think anyone considering the purchase of a venomoid would agree that they would prefer a specimen that had a paperwork trail and had the surgery conducted in a humane manner by a certified veterinarian. Suggestions????? THIS WOULD ALSO GO A LONG WAY TOWARDS INSURING THAT SOMEONE DOES NOT BY A "HOT" VENOMOID!!! (One that has not been through the surgery but, the supplier is saying it is to get more money! (Yes, it has happened!) Shall we say, "Certified Venomoid"??

[Mustangrde1]

OH OH sign me right up,,, oh damn I already am. Thanks Ray you do have the cooler head in this as i said. Sometimes its best to sit back and let a cooler head do the writing thank you.

[Mustangrde1]

ooppss For the petetion its

Scott Bice, Fort Pierce, Florida

Names do help

Who is Next?

[jtpRUGGER]

I would sign a petition like that in a heartbeat.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

That is a relatively great idea. Would be nice like folks such as Kingsnake dot com who classify herps for sale to help out, or even the basic run-of-the-mill person. Good idear...

[Cruciform]

It's a good idea not only because it would regulate the methods, but the document would also put liability on the vet and the vendors so if they sell you a hack-job reptile that eventually gives you a hot bite, they have responsibility.
You'd see fewer vets with questionable ethics willing to do it for fear of being sued out of existence :)

There'd still be a black market of course, but all industries have that problem.

[Auskan]

I would sign such a petition. Just let me know how and when....

[M_surinamensis]

Doesn't really address long term health issues though.

'course... At the moment there's some question about how much of those health problems is due directly to the hack job the snake underwent and how much is due to the importance of venom in the snake's digestive process. Having snakes which were from a known source where the surgery itself didn't open them up for secondary infections would provide a control group to test a few of those factors.

If the health problems are still present when someone who is competent performs the surgery with the proper concerns in place, it's evidence enough to call it universal cruelty.

[herpetological]

This debate on venomoids has so many levels. We have to start somewhere... Getting the issue out will open many doors and allow us to discuss the other factors which can affect a specimen which has been through the surgery. I agree with you Seamus that in particular in pit vipers the venom assists in digestion and these surgeries can have still unknown affects for the long term health. However, we have to get our foot in the door without too much opposition. If we were proposing a complete ban on venomoids it would turn even more heated. At least in this manner we are addressing the most important issue.... The surgeries being conduvted by a non-licensed person. I hate to repeat it but, the most likely scenario is unsanitary conditions, no anesthetics, specimens going through the surgery as fresh imports or at least not completely healthy, possible high mortality rates etc. etc. With a law going into effect which allows only recognized veternarians to do the surgery... At least we are addressing the major part of the issue. This also is a plus to the persons purchasing the Venomoid. They get a certification which states where and when the surgery was done and by whom.... The person purchasing the specimen can be comfortable in the fact that the specimen IS VENOMOID and done correctly and is likely to be much healthier. Good example.... Would you be more comfortable buying a het ball python from an unknown person with no paperwork or a known breeder with a track record and a paper trail. Same in this case scenario... Buy a venomoid from an un- certified hack or one that is certified and has a paper trail. It's not a pefect proposal but, a start. This would also cut down on the number of surgeries since many vets would not do the surgeries if it conflicted with ethics(Was done for a good reason) or if they felt the liability too high...????? It would also give us hard data in regards to the mortality rate and long term survival of the specimen... THEN WE WILL HAVE HARD DATA FROM A RESPECTED SOURCE!!>( >(

[Mustangrde1]

Veterinarian's Oath


Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, the relief of animal suffering, the conservation of livestock resources, the promotion of public health and the advancement of medical knowledge. I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics. I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.

[cobraman]

Good Idea Ray.
Ray (the other one)

[cobraman]

Hacker’s Oath

Not being admitted to any profession (largely in part because I am a looser) I swear to use my lack of scientific knowledge, as well as any other common sense, and my skills with my old rusty girl scout knife for my own benefit, with no regard for the well-being or pain and suffering of the snake. I will practice my hacking in my garage (next to the parts of my moped), with indignity, and so people don’t confuse me with a real vet., I will use illegally obtained drugs (when I can borrow my mom’s bathroom scale to calculate incorrect dosages) otherwise I simply won’t bother with the medication crap. And if moral people do not like what I do to God’s creations, I promise to make a fool of myself on the internet by lying, contradicting myself, showing my ignorance, and a little name calling. So help me, Me!


-vs-

Veterinarian's Oath


Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, the relief of animal suffering, the conservation of livestock resources, the promotion of public health and the advancement of medical knowledge. I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics. I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.

[herpetological]

It's amazing that we hear these statements such as.... "There are no laws against it". Well as with any society, new laws are not enacted until a situation becomes a problem or until society dictates that such an act is immoral or unjust. JMHO

[MsTT]

Couple of problems with these ideas. One, it is already illegal for non veterinarians to perform surgery without a license. Some leeway is granted in some states for farmers with their own livestock and for licensed wildlife rehabilitators, but these guidelines do *not* allow for surgery that is essentially performed for a profit to increase the value of an animal for sale, major invasive surgery that could be considered inhumane if done in a casual manner without pain control medication, or for people who are not licensed wildlife rescuers. In short, venomoid hack jobs are already illegal. We don't need new laws, we need to enforce the ones we've already got.

I don't keep venomoids, but 95% of the snakes in my collection have lived for years without ever envenomating their prey because they are eating frozen/thawed. The digestive advantage of envenomating prey in the wild evolved because a snake might catch a mouse and then the weather might get cold, slowing down the snake's metabolism and its rate of digestion. In these cases the venom keeps on working, and digestion happens. A captive snake that always has a nice warm place to bask doesn't need the extra advantage, which is why they do just fine on f/t prey.

The reason that a veterinary certificate should be required is not for human safety, but for the sake of preventing animal abuse and cruelty. There are inexperienced veterinarians who might undertake an adenectomy and miss some tissue. According to reptile medicine experts, even a professionally done ductectomy can regenerate. So the safety of a venomoid cannot be 100% guaranteed regardless of who is doing the surgery.

[Mustangrde1]

Well said Tanith. BTW Mamba and Copper doing great.

[M_surinamensis]

Tanith, with all due respect, the jury is still out on the exact degree of digestive "help" granted by venom.

Different toxicities and different venom compositions clearly would play different roles and not every species has evolved to the point where venom injection would play a *major* role in their digestion.

Scott... Do you remember Roger? I can't recall his last name, younger guy but had a doctorate, the marines put him through school. I haven't talked to him in several months because he's been in the Middle East (last I heard anyway) but... He had started a project that was interrupted by his military duties where he was trying to measure the role of venom in digestion. If he ever manages to finish it and collect some concrete data I believe it will confirm not only the benefits but the NEED for venom (and live prey) for some of the more toxic species.

Essentially he was trying to create control groups to test assorted variables... He was putting together a collection with multiple animals of identical gender, age and weight (Which should provide similar enough metabolic rates for his initial gathering of information) and then feed prey items of identical weight and type... but vary between live, prekilled and frozen/thawed prey items. His theory was that the live prey would be digested more completely as the prey animal's own systems would spread the venom and cause greater tissue breakdown. By measuring growth rates and the mass and composition of feces he could get a fairly clear idea of the value which may be represented if the project was continued with larger test groups.

I believe he had managed to put together a collection of about three dozen animals that he was going to place into three control groups... Obviously not enough to completely rule out outside factors having an influence but when the weight of the test subjects is within a few grams, the ages are within a few weeks, the envieonmental conditions are as close to identical as possible, the genders are all verified and every animal is essentially "flushed" prior to starting any data collection the results can be used as early indicators of what may be attained with a larger group.

[MsTT]

Sounds like a great study. I look forward to the results.

I agree that no one has really done a thorough study on how the micronutrients and macronutrients in prey items are affected by envenomation or the lack thereof. I hope that someone does conduct the research. However it is hard to argue with the large body of anectodal evidence that suggests that venomous snakes in captivity can be maintained in good health for many years on f/t prey that is never envenomated.

Certainly there is a metabolic advantage to envenomating prey; it speeds digestion along considerably in some species, and has antibacterial properties as well. This is a huge advantage for a wild snake in a colder climate. In captivity a good basking spot after eating is always assured, so the advantage is much less critical to survival.