This is rediculous!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gregg M]

All of my post are being deleted on KS because of my stance against venomoids....... I posted the legalities and the seriousness of what KS is allowing to be sold on the site and they keep knocking my post off the board....... Then the guy tried to say that he had to hear a ton of crap from people about selling venomous on his site........ I simply replied that it is not illegal to sell hots but it is illegal to make venomoids if the persons are not licensed...... That reply has not been deleted yet but all the others I posted were........ That site is on a fast downward curve and is about to hit bottom because of the amount of illegal void sales they allow.......... I hat to look in the ads because every other post is a venomoid for sale....... It is sickening.......

[Matt]

gotta love censorship, maybe they should get off their high horse for once!

[Dani33]

That is so sad. I just went and looked at the classifieds. The poor things look scarred w/ sunken heads. It sorta made me feel like crying. The shape of thier heads are a part of what makes them so beautiful. I agree with Matt about censorship.

[Mustangrde1]

Gregg You and I just talked about this subject and I never post on KS but send me a link and i will be more then happy to fire off the laws and ramifications that they themselves could possibly face for allowing it. Ya I know it will be deleted but you know how i love to stirr **** when this subject comes up. and Post it to the BOI as well im sure many will love to see the censorship.

[BoidKeeper]

You've got my support Gregg. Keep fighting the good fight. Not eveybody rolls over, good to see.
Cheers bro,
Trevor

[Gregg M]

Its funny how they allow the breeders and dealer that sell on their site to say whatever they please without post being deleted........ Someone like You or me cant say how we feel........ Money talks, I guess..... And thanks Trevor......

[Gregg M]

Unreal!!!!!!!!!!! They did it again to two of my post........ I am pretty much done with that site.......... Think I will keep going until they ban me......LOL....... Too bad not all forums can be as great as the ones on this site......... You mods do a great job out here........ Thanks for giving us a great place to hang........

[carpetman]

.

[Gregg M]

Now did you have to go there???????LOL....... I want to keep this in good nature so I wont rant........ I will just give you a few reasons why voids in general are bad........ I am sure you love snakes as much as me and maybe you will take something from this and change how you feel........ The majority of venomoids being sold are not done by licensed people....... This means they are done in less than clean environments........ There is also no pain reliefe meds given to the snakes after an operation....... They are pretty much hacked into and closed up........ Imagine you having some teeth pulled with no pain meds........ Does not sound like a day in the park to me....... Also, the majority of the animals operated on die during or shortly after the "operation"........ Do you know how many die before one actually lives???? Some species even suffer for longer because the venom that is used to break down tissue is no longer there, so the snake actually starves to death but very slowly......... I had a rescued venomoid gaboon viper that was poopin out half digested mice........ Can you explain that???? All my other hot gaboons are thriving but the one void died due to starvation when I fed it as frequently as all my others........ The necropcy was done by a vet...... No signs of a virus, bateria, or worms to put it simply......... It staved to death....... Plus the fact is, the operations are illegal......... You can not practice vetinary medicine with out a vetinary license........ I hope you would change your views on this and hold back from ever buying a venomoid........ All you will be doing is supporting the inhumane treatment of reptiles........

[carpetman]

.

[Gregg M]

Hey Carpetman,
I can say 100% that the big majority of voids being produced are done buy garage hacks........ I am sure there is more than one person that will have no problem backing that up........ The fact is a very low % of vets will even see a hot snake and an even lower % of them will preform the operation........ If you look in all the venomoid ads, not one of them says the operations were done by a licensed vet....... Not a single one........ They may say profetionally done but that is just a missleading statement to make you think it was done by vet without having to say it.......

[BoidKeeper]

It donesn't matter who's doing the surgery, it's mutalating an animal. It's unessacery surgery. It's even worse then de-clawing a cat. If you don't want you house scratched up don't get a cat. If you can't handle the risk with the venom intact get a corn.
Trevor

[marisa]

Gregg you would have fun reading Web Wars & Cult Headqaurters forum over at fauna. LOL Its filled with stories just like these.

I was banned from that site a year ago. Don't even bother with their forums anymore even if I wasn't.

Marisa

[Dani33]

I agree with Trevor. Would you remove dog's set of teeth because it has the potential to bite, or a parrots beak? Imagine someone did that to a pup by someone who wasn't qualified to do it, no anesthetic or pain medication. I am hoping that you would be outraged! To me it's the same thing. Plain out horrific.

[carpetman]

.

[AshleyL]

IMO it doesnt matter how much money you can make off them, mutilating an animal for ANY reason is irresponsible and disgusting.

[Gregg M]

Why else would they hack up a snake????? Put it this way, I can buy a captive bred gaboon for 50 bucks....... If you hack it up you can sell it for 400 bucks....... Still think there is no profit in this...... They make tons of cash on these mutilated snakes....... Its a shame........Carpetman, I am trying not to take your post as a personal attack and I am also trying not to take them too seriously....... I dont think I have been rude to you at all, infact I have been very nice and did not rip you a new arse for the previous statements........ Am I being too sensitive?????

[bear24]

I cannot believe a Herp keeper would say that. I hope you leave the window open in the winter Carpetman. It is plain old wrong to deface an animal to suit your needs for it. If you don't want to get bit and really sick don't go venomous. That is thier appeal to me a rush!! NO VENEMOIDS

[M_surinamensis]

Even outside of the immediate concerns regarding how the surgery is performed, there is extremely strong evidence which suggests that venomous snakes NEED venom in order to maintain an intake of nutrients that exceeds their use. The more toxic the species, the more important the venom is in breaking down tissue as a sort of pre-digestion.

There was an interesting debate about this on http://www.venomousreptiles.org a while back... in order to find it, one has to search through the archived articles for the Venomoid Overview. As it was mainly participated in by hot keepers, it does give a bit more strength to the perspectives that have been expressed by Gregg M (And of course Scott) on this thread. The more experienced and educated a keeper is, the more they see the negative ramifications of these actions. The majority of venomoid owners are young, frequently fairly stupid and seem to need a hot snake as a kind of penile substitute... None of which leads to a positive situation for the animal or the keeper (Venomoid "surgeries" aren't 100%).

[Gregg M]

Well said Seamus,
Sometimes good info that is being put out like yours, Scotts, and myself, falls onto def ears as you can see in a couple of post above these....... I still dont agree with the sand as substrate for leopard gecko debate......LOL...... Thanks for your input and the link Seamus......

[wyz]

Greg you're really a calm guy, I admire that.

You're mature enough to see that he's only looking to start a stupid debate by trying to make cracks at you.

Good job keep it up !

I'm not a hot snake kind of guy but I still understand your point of view, makes me sick just thinking suposedly herp lovers make such procedures on living animals.

WYZ

[M_surinamensis]

The only problem with the digestive impact is that it was studied due to conjecture about the direction of snake evolution. This once well accepted theory has been turned on it's ear by Fry, although I think much of this is due to his credibility in general rather than evidence of this specific conjecture.

Basically though for anyone who might not be as aware of the health impacts of venomoid production, what can't be argued with is that snakes which produce venom cause some degree of tissue breakdown prior to consuming a prey item. Hemotoxic species obviously do so to a greater degree... more toxic species or those with a much larger venom yeild break down more tissue faster as well. The species which are generally turned into venomoids are those which people are afraid to own but need as a status symbol... more dangerous species for advanced keepers. Since the potential danger to human life (and limb) goes hand in hand with how much tissue is broken down in a prey item, it can quickly become a problem.

The original conjecture as to the evolution of snake venom was as follows... Snakes develop a stronger digestive fluid, this allows them to metabolize prey better and more efficiently and makes the individual animal more successful. Evidence of this can be found in the physical structure of Duvernoys glands (very similar to salivary glands) and the function of such in species with primitive toxins (Garters and Nerodia with anticoagulants released into the salive for instance... Heterodons produce toxins which pretty much MELT toads and so on). The obvious tendencies for any animal which is more successful or able to outcompete others to leave their mark on the gene pool would have a cummulative effect- the more toxic an individual was, the more successful and the more likely to breed. Eventually the chemical warfare going on in the breeding population would give rise to an animal which would be capable of subduing prey with greater ease in addition to more efficient digestion... the species as a whole becomes more and more toxic until it can finally be utilized as a defense against potential predators.

However... as a species becomes more able to utilize avaliable nutrients, they also become more dependant on a higher nutritional intake. Anyone who's kept hots knows that they're much better at digesting prey than a fat old boid, the proof is in the end (see, it's a pun) product.

By removing the ability to envenomate prey, the digestive capabilities of the animal are impeded. The nutrients the animal is able to leech from the prey items are no longer sufficient to meet the amounts which are used, the health and general well being of the venomoid animal suffers.

All of this is IF they survive the procedure and IF they survive the first few weeks after it's completed without succumbing to an infection... Stressed snakes are immunocompromised snakes.

Then add in the fact that the procedure is virtually never performed by a vet... The few who would be qualified to make the attempt generally see it as pointlessly dangerous to the animal's health. This means that most venomoids are the product of basement procedures performed in insterile environments with inappropriate tools. Why would anyone feel any safer with a venomoid animal knowing the sort of person who was responsible for the removal of the glands or cauterization of the ducts? Incomplete procedures have been known to completely reverse themselves, with "venomoid" animals being capable of just as much venom production (yeild and toxicity) as they were before they were hacked.

Basically it all boils down to a situation which is unsafe for the animal, unsafe for the person considering the ownership of such an animal and unsafe for everyone who IS responsible with their hot ownership, who took the time to learn the proper respect for the creatures involved.

[BoidKeeper]

Carpetman you're being antagonistic and looking for a fight. That sort of behaviour will not bring about anything positive and therefore will not be tolerated.
In other words stop stirring the pot.
Trevor

[carpetman]

.

[bubba]

Jeez! I did't even know these things were still available. I was given a "venomoid" mahave rattler around 1975. It never acted right. It was very placid, didn't rattle and rarely ate. It eventually just wasted away. It was kept properly but just didn't thrive. I also had a normal mahave. It was the opposite story. bubba

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by carpetman
What my opinion is looking for a fight??????? ,,How convienent a moderator is agreeing with the person who is whining because someone is selling venomoids,he is the one that keeps complaining that people are selling them,on both sites and i take it the other site dose not like his posts........He is the one stiring the pot.......

Because what these people are doing IS animal cruelety and it shouldn't happen just to make a buck.


Your basicly saying that is ok for these people to butcher these animals just to make money or have a typicly hot become "tame"( tame as in the opprotunity to handle with out becoming envenomated). When research shows that it does harm these beautiful snakes.

[carpetman]

This is a FREE country and i believe you can do what you want,if you have a problem with people selling venomoids,DONT look at there AD,s,,,you are not being forced to read their ads,this discussion will never end because people are stuck with their opinion and looking at the way it has been going their opinion will never change ,,,Untill all Venomous and venomiods are OUTLAWED

[Mustangrde1]

Putting emotions aside and looking at the subject from a pure statistic view 90% of the animals that go under this " UNEEDED" surgery by Unqualified person DIE. That comes out to 10 out of 100 survive hence the high cost for a venomoid.

Now lets look at the safety issue. If the surgery is not done perfectly the animals can again become venomous and fully capable of delivering a fatal bite. I know of one animal that had the surgery done and after a check just off a gut instinct had yellow fluid show on a towel " venom " though it was not conclusive after having numerous mice and rats bitten by the animal they all died in realitively quick order "venom". Now as this was a Paupan Black snake and not by any meens a constrictor or viper with large fangs all i could say is " VENOMOUS".

Concider that animal being sold as a VENOMOID and the person recieving it deciding to play with it and it bit him. He / She would have been dead. This is the biggest problem with venomoids that they can become after time leathol again and kill.Imagine if the buyer had a kid and the kid was bitten and died. Public outcry to ban reptiles would be beyound belief. It would not just be venomous but all reptiles. If you think thats not true your kidding yourself. So now this has put the entire hobby at risk. Care to loose your corns , balls , boas , monitors, geckos???

Many people purchase these animals so they can show off and handle a normally deadly animal. This is a foolish move for the above reason I have handled venomoids myself and always kept a very warry eye on them and no longer do it period for the same reason as well as my belief the surgery is wrong in that no animal should be subject to a surgery with such high mortality rate.

Another reason is that they feel that if they train with a venomoid they will be ready to handle the real thing. This is so far from the truth it makes me laugh when i hear it. First off I have never seen a venomoid after surgery act like a true venomous. Also you will always have it in the back of your head that it is not deadly so you wont show it the proper respect needed. If you do want to keep hots or are thinking about it write on a yellow sticky note every time a snake bites you " today I could have died" at the end of a year see how many times you would have died and then ask yourself if its wourth it.

Many people think they also can not find a true venomous handler to properly train them so they get the voids to learn. I can get the same trainning out of a cornsnake or coachwhip. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A TRAINER WITH REAL VENOMOUS to teach you. Anyone that says they cant find someone is plain lazy and really isnt looking for one. This is a fact I lived in CA and kept native venomous from 1987 till 2000 when i moved to FL where I had to meet all of Florida's laws and regualtions to get a permit for keeping them here which I did. It took me time to find a venomous teacher here but I did it so no one has an excuse in my eyes not to.

Then we have the people who buy one for the same reason they buy a expensive car or get a big constrictor and that is to SHOW OFF. Showing off gets you killed.

Now lets suppose you do get one anyway and it does bite you depending on species you may not be able to get antivenom in time to save your life. This is because you or the hospitol does not carry the AV needed or may not know where to get some from. Also hospitol personal may not know how to treat such a bite. This occurs because a Venomoid keeper does not do near the research on the animal a venomous keeper would do. Nor do they research the proper AV and where to locate it.

As to the surgery and standards of the surgery. Medications are regulated, but more to the point there are federal laws that require proper steryol surgical enviroments as well as a host of other requirements including full medical records on the animals.These subjects would take hours to go in to.

Bottom line is this is a heated emotional debate especially among venomous keepers. But everyone should feel that if any operation to any animal has such a high mortality rate it should be outlawed. These surgeries are preformed at high cost of life to the animals involved and done purely for no other reason than selling the few that do survive at an eaxtremely high price.If you think that is incorrect the wholesale cost for say a Monacle Cobra " Naja kaouthia" in Bulk is about $65.00 per animal. The resale price of a venomoid is $400.00 to $500.00 the cost of surgery through an unqualified person useing substandard equiptment and medications is roughly $50.00 so now the animal is wourth $115.00 add in shipping of $65.00 and a box charge of $25.00 it all comes out to these people doing it ONLY AND SOULY FOR PROFITABLE GAINS. No care for the animals no reguards for the animals safety or well being.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by carpetman
This is a FREE country and i believe you can do what you want

And i thought we had laws agaist animal cruelity.


Are you tring to say that all venimoid procedures are done correctly and humanly and that we shouldn't argue the fact that what they are doing is ANIMAL CRUELETY!!!!

If i were to go out and cut dogs and cats teeth out the way these people do it i would be jailed as soon as i was caught why shouldn't these people face the same charges.

[Big_V]

Its not a profit debate its an ethical one. Who are we (other animals on the planet) to modify what nature has provided us with and furthermore to make a profit off this. There is complete evidence that the venom is necessary to these snakes to thrive and live full lives..otherwise why would they have this. If there was no need for this venom there would be no poisonous snakes and every snake would be a colubrid or boid. You cant alter an animal for the sake of profit... medical research maybe but to permanently alter the physical make up of a snake so that you may say you have a venomous species when its really not is absurd. So if it were possible to put venom in say a boa constrictor it would be fine then by this logic. We cant be playing 'God' here with animals and biology. Species are made a certain way and if eventually over evolution they change so be it because it was natural. But the modification of these animals and there 'weapons' to survive is unethical and inhumane. Without venom these species have no real tools to catch prey the way they naturally should. Evolution has its place but modifying animals for profit or human ammusement just makes me sick.
Cheers, RYan

[Cruciform]

The only problem I have with Gregg's posts is that they're darn hard to read! ;)

Dude, use the enter key a little more often! hehe.

[rwg]

Originally posted by carpetman
What my opinion is looking for a fight??????? ,,How convienent a moderator is agreeing with the person who is whining because someone is selling venomoids,he is the one that keeps complaining that people are selling them,on both sites and i take it the other site dose not like his posts........He is the one stiring the pot.......

Either you're looking for a fight, or you're just a jerk. You tell us which. Do you think it being a "free country" gives people the right to perform acts of cruelty to animals? If so I'd say you're not looking for a fight...you're just a jerk.

You can usually tell when someone is looking for a fight. They have no basis for their opinion, no facts on their side, and they hold to their opinion no matter how many good points are made against it. Sound familiar?

rg

[Gregg M]

LOL Cruciform,
I will make a note of that........LOL.....

[Mustangrde1]

HEY CARPET IF YOU CAN NOT HANDLE A HOT GET A CORN AND STICK WITH THEM. have a nice day:)

[Big_V]

Originally posted by Mustangrde1
HEY CARPET IF YOU CAN NOT HANDLE A HOT GET A CORN AND STICK WITH THEM. have a nice day:)

Could not have said it better. One day I want to get into Hots, ill stick to my boids to train up and will never buy venemoids because it is unethical cruel and against evolution. Stay out of hots unless you are willing to deal with the animal as it was created. The hot keepers know what they are talking about so dont try to debate them on an issue for which you have no facts and premises except its a free country.
Cheers, Ryan

[Mustangrde1]

Heh ill stick my head out on the { FREE COUNTRY } STATEMENT. Yes is certainly is a free country but it also has LAWS. The fact is many of the people doing this surgery are breaking laws plain simple and factual. They get away with it because law enforcement agencies are over taxed as is for personel and cases. So under the FREE Country mentality I can run redlights all day if i dont get caught or I can remove the Livers or Kidneys from a human as long as im not caught. Ya its breaking laws but hey its a free country lol.

Try looking up CRUELTY STATUES relateding to animals, then try oh lets say laws reguarding surgical procedures and records for operation. then maybe the requirements needed to legally do a surgery oh and finally who may legally perform a surgery.

[carpetman]

.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by carpetman
I think these Hot keepers are just mad that the $$$$$$$ is not in their pocket, Personally i do not care!
The ONLY people who have a problem with Venomiods are HOT keepers

If that's true then why do i not belive it's right to do that to a venomous snake. I have/will never keep a hot, i have no desire to ever keep one, but yet i still do not belive this procedure should be done ever. Why, because of the ANIMALS!!!!!

Just because you have money on the mind doesn't mean the rest of us do. I'm in the hobby because i LOVE the animals i work with not to make money.

[AshleyL]

Originally posted by carpetman
I think these Hot keepers are just mad that the $$$$$$$ is not in their pocket, Personally i do not care!
The ONLY people who have a problem with Venomiods are HOT keepers
That's because they have the most EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE in regards to dealing with venomous snakes. It's easy to understand how they form strong, EDUCATED opinions on something they deal with every day.
Being that they understand and fully appreciate these animals, who better to stand against their cruel and unnecessary mutilation? I seriously doubt this is an issue of jealousy....

[Mustangrde1]

I think these Hot keepers are just mad that the $$$$$$$ is not in their pocket, Personally i do not care!
The ONLY people who have a problem with Venomiods are HOT keepers



Ok lets ask the people who sell Reptiles for a living I am sure they will be on soon. And they choose NOT TO SELL THEM and could..


By the way Carpet. As you speak of something you obviously know nothing about there is a old saying I would like you to hear/

One can only asume your a Idiot till you opne your mouth and prove them correct. Well proof is in the typing in this case.

New Darwin candidate???

[Dani33]

The ONLY people who have a problem with Venomiods are HOT keepers


That is certainly an incorrect statement. I do not have hots nor do I ever intend on keeping them. I am whole heartedly against them. They are right, you are making rediculous statements and trying to pic fights. You are obviously one of those people who shoot off thier mouths for arguments sake.

The majority of people who have replied to this thread are canadian. Which tells me that they do not keep hots. As it is next to impossible to get the permits to keep them. I think that the majority of animal lovers period would be against it. In fact, you are so rediculous that I think that everyone should ignore your posts, as they are stupidity at thier finest!!!!

[Dani33]

LOL, 4 people replied to his thread at once. I think that everyone should ignore him. He is acting childish and should be treated in such a way.

[Mustangrde1]

Dani no no we need to hear these post. It is very informing to people to find out about these cruelties and if a idiot is there spokesman and advocate well so be it. Just lends that much more reason why its so wrong.
if i just misspelled anything forgive me im laughing so hard i can barely see

[Dani33]

LOL, your right!!! All the better for the arguement against them!

[jtpRUGGER]

Ok, I've kept my mouth shut long enough. I've been watching this thread all morning, and I think I've done well to keep my mouth shut. Carpet, you said a few things that kinda made sense to me. I can almost understand why its safe to say people are allowed to have their own opinions about v'oids, even if it is an opinion that I completely disagree with. That last comment, however, was ridiculous. It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with the treatment of the animals. If it was a money issue, why wouldnt they get upset about people selling ball python morphs?

[drewlowe]

I personally want to hear the benifits from him, myself.

What is it that would cause you to want a venimoid after all the info that has been given. To be "cool"...

Is it really worth the life of 10 other snakes just so you can have a venimoid that will possible regain thier venom, or that will wither away to nothing from the lack of not being able to properly digest their food.

If you say it's for the money then you obviously do not care at all for these animals.

[Gregg M]

I cant believe what this carpetman is typing...... I even tried to keep it civil but he felt the need to start insulting people that are against the illegal operations........ I will never understand......

[tHeGiNo]

This is a FREE country and i believe you can do what you want,if you have a problem with people selling venomoids,DONT look at there AD,s,,,you are not being forced to read their ads,this discussion will never end because people are stuck with their opinion and looking at the way it has been going their opinion will never change ,,,Untill all Venomous and venomiods are OUTLAWED


I think these Hot keepers are just mad that the $$$$$$$ is not in their pocket, Personally i do not care!

Wow buddy, could you be ANY more ignorant? I hope you don't take everything in life with that attitude, "if you don't like it ignore it." Some people have more morality, or even common sense then that. I, PERSONALLY, feel terribly sorry for all the herps under your 'care,' if you want to call it that.

[cobraman]

Hey Carpet Clown. You are right this is a free country, so why don't you go out and rob a bank?

I import and sell venomous snakes, and would love to make the $ venomoids bring, but I refuse to lower my standards to your level.

In case you have not yet noticed, your silly remarks are never going to lower the standards of the people on this site, so why not drop it, go out and have a good cry and you will feel better.

I hope someone does not decide to remove your brain because you have the potential to be dangerous. That is exactly what you are saying is okay to do to venomous snakes.

[crazyboy]

here lets think of it this way. say there is this nice little dog. and say the owner didn't like that it had such big teeth so he decided to take the dog into his garage. straps it down to his workbench breaks out the pair of pliars and goes to work. starts ripping out the teeth one by one. doesn't use any medicine or anything. after puuling out the teeth he just leaves the cuts open and lets them get infected. then he unstraps the dog and brings it inside. the dog will act all weird. it probable wont eat for a long time because it wont kno how because it cant chew. It will also hurt so the dog wont eat. hereby starving. say this dog was now worth twice as much money. would you start going out to the pet store buying dogs and bringing them home to your garage and hacking them up and then selling them for profit. would u?

How about we take you to a shed in your backyard. We starp you into a chair and take out a pair of pliers and start tearing out your teeth. not we didn't give you any medicine. once all your teeth are out we bring you back inside. what would you do? would you be happy? id ont think so.

remember keeping herps is to take care of your herps and give them the best care and what they need. i dont think they really need nor want this to happen to them.

[Oliverian]

Exactly Ray.

Carpet... I don't know if you really are that closed-minded and cruel, or if you're just trying to get a rise out of us. Personally, I think you should just grow up, and leave animal keeping for the people who actually care about the animals. Enough said.

-TammyR

[Cruciform]

There's a popular link site called Slashdot that has a VERY active comment system. They even have user moderation so the users can police each other.

Posts like Carpet's are called "trolls", and some people spend all of their time trolling to get people angry because they enjoy the frustration they cause.

I think we've been trolled.

[Mustangrde1]

Cruciform the world needs its trolls to bring to light the knights of the world. The troll is a sketish little creature that is horrid and disfigured and spouts false things and trys to rob plunder and extort. The Knights stand for good and right and are willing to fight the trolls of the world. If in fighting these trolls we find even wourse dragons that need fighting on our journey it is our duty and obligation to do so.

Ok enough of that. This troll i dont think got much more out of me that one hell of a good laugh so if his purpose was to insight it failed in that, But it has again brought up a subject that needs to be stopped and people willing to stop it are growing in numbers. No more voids.....

[TheRedDragon]

The ONLY people who have a problem with Venomiods are HOT keepers

You sure sound pretty sure of yourself there.... I don't own any hots, and I'm VERY against the creation of venomoids. Everyone here has that is against the procedure has already explained why it is a cruel and unnatural thing to do, I agree with them wholeheartedly. I do not believe in altering such magnifcent creatures, and the pictures I have seen of venomoids has sickened me and brought me to tears. How could you condone something that inhumane? Most of those poor animals don't stand a chance in hell of ever leading a full and healthy life, and for what? So someone can own one of these creatures without having to put any effort into research, dedication and respect of hots?! I'm with you all the way Gregg, they shouldn't have been deleting your posts, that just goes to show how ignorant some people really can be. :mad:

- Sorry about that guys, I didn't see the previous posts before my rant, I just read up to the last post that I quoted. ;)

[Jeff Hathaway]

Firstly, Dani, there are no 'permits' required for Ontarians to own venomous snakes. That isn't true in every province, but it is here. They are prohibited in many municipalites (with no permits available) but if you live somewhere else, no problem. There are actually quite a few hot keepers in Ontario, which I find disturbing despite the fact that I am one myself in about the smallest possible way.

Secondly, the issue at hand. Now anyone who knows me knows I don't go looking for fights, but they also know I'm a stickler for legal issues and statements being correct. Gregg, I understand your viewpoint on voids, and generally agree with it, but it is not true for you to make a blanket statement that they are illegal (though I don't doubt for a second that *most* are). Now I'll admit I'm no expert on these laws, so if I'm wrong, please let me know.

Here's my reasoning:

1) Canada and the USA have animal cruelty laws. Does Guatemala? What about Cameroon? If a specimen was 'mutilated' in another country and then imported, it would not be illegal.

2) It is not 'practicing veterinary medicine' to operate on your own animal. Farmers do it all the time. You can even operate on someone else's animal, provided you don't charge them money for your services. This doesn't automatically avoid the cruelty laws, but it does mean that the 'illegal to perform the operation' argument is not always true, and in fact is often not. I understand that many of these people purchase the animals, do the 'surgery', and then resell them. While this may be abhorrent, this is not practicing veterinary medicine. Combine this with the fact that it IS possible under some circumstances for people who aren't vets to have skills in the this area, and have access to medications to do things properly. I admit this isn't common but suffice it to say that I know some personally (no, they don't make venomoids). This would eliminate the cruelty aspect *as far as the procedure goes*. I'd still say it is cruel from the long term point of view, but I'm not sure the law would agree, just like it is okay to declaw cats as long as the procedure is done properly.

I wasn't sure whether I wanted to post this or not, in case the 'wrong' people read it and got ideas. I think I'll leave it up for a little while for the purposes of the debate and then delete it. Anyway, like I said, if I'm wrong, let me know, but I think it is simply wrong to make blanket statements about their legality.

Cheers,

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Mustangrde1]

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/art...484794fadae28fd

The above is a actual venomoid hacking in progress look at it very carefully and then read below....

Just a Thought but here is a link everyone might find interesting as to what is cruelty to animals. ALL 50 STATES.

http://www.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cruelty/cruelty.htm

Alabama
3-1-10. Wanton, malicious, etc., destruction, injury, etc., of animal or article or commodity of value of another -- Prohibited

Any person, who unlawfully, wantonly or maliciously kills, disables, disfigures, destroys or injures any animal or article or commodity of value which is the property of another must, on conviction, be fined not less than twice the value of the injury or damage to the owner of the property nor more than $1,000.00 and may also be imprisoned in the county jail, or sentenced to hard labor for the county for not more than six months, and so much of the fine as may be necessary to repair the injury or loss shall go to the party injured.

Florida
828.12. Cruelty to animals

(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

(3) A veterinarian licensed to practice in the state shall be held harmless from either criminal or civil liability for any decisions made or services rendered under the provisions of this section. Such a veterinarian is, therefore, under this subsection, immune from a lawsuit for his or her part in an investigation of cruelty to animals.

(4) A person who intentionally trips, fells, ropes, or lassos the legs of a horse by any means for the purpose of entertainment or sport shall be guilty of a third degree felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this subsection, "trip" means any act that consists of the use of any wire, pole, stick, rope, or other apparatus to cause a horse to fall or lose its balance, and "horse" means any animal of any registered breed of the genus Equus, or any recognized hybrid thereof. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply when tripping is used:
(a) To control a horse that is posing an immediate threat to other livestock or human beings;
(b) For the purpose of identifying ownership of the horse when its ownership is unknown; or
(c) For the purpose of administering veterinary care to the horse.

Georgia

(c) A person commits the offense of aggravated cruelty to animals when he or she knowingly and maliciously causes death or physical harm to an animal by rendering a part of such animal's body useless or by seriously disfiguring such animal. A person convicted of the offense of aggravated cruelty to animals shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, a fine not to exceed $15,000.00, or both, provided that any person who is convicted of a second or subsequent violation of this subsection shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, a fine not to exceed the amount provided by Code Section 17-10-8, or both.

Oregon
167.310. Definitions for ORS 167.310 to 167.350.
As used in ORS 167.310 to 167.350:

(1) "Animal" means any nonhuman mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian or fish.
167.320. Animal abuse in the first degree.
(1) A person commits the crime of animal abuse in the first degree if, except as otherwise authorized by law, the person intentionally, knowingly or recklessly:

(a) Causes serious physical injury to an animal; or

(b) Cruelly causes the death of an animal.

(2) Any practice of good animal husbandry is not a violation of this section.

(3) Animal abuse in the first degree is a Class A misdemeanor.

Washington state
16.52.205. Animal cruelty in the first degree
(1) A person is guilty of animal cruelty in the first degree when, except as authorized in law, he or she intentionally (a) inflicts substantial pain on, (b) causes physical injury to, or (c) kills an animal by a means causing undue suffering, or forces a minor to inflict unnecessary pain, injury, or death on an animal.

(2) Animal cruelty in the first degree is a class C felony.


These are just a few of the random laws. Now add in Federal Laws and Statues along with Veterianary laws and you get the picture we have laws but they are not being enforced. You really want to stop these people FORCE AND DEMAND that the laws be enforced. By the way Sellers having these animals made in to venomoids may want to look at their state laws. Some states actually could prosecute them for contributing.

More to come later...FIRST COFFEE

[Big_V]

Man this could be the biggest venemous thread ever. Keep it up people. I like reading all these laws and such to keep informed. That is the key here isnt it...informed LOL. Subtleness may work on carpetman who knows.

[herpetological]

Has anyone considered that carpetman might be a "Closet Venomoid Keeper"? Maybe that the reason for this? Ok....As Scott mentioned i'm a dealer who does sell venomous snakes. I refuse to sell venomoids due to ETHICS and the fact that on several occasions I was the person who had to save the lives of specimens who had "professional surgery" conducted on them. So .... considering this I guess i'm just a selfish herpetologist who doesn't need the money? Of course I do. However, I refuse to sell my ethics or my soul. Just a question? Why did any of us gain an interest in herps to begin with? Was it facination, respect, etc. When did the ethics and morals fly out the door for you. If humans are so intelligent then what happens to empathy for other living beings? Isn't this part of our spiritual make-up? I guess for most of us it is.... Enough of that part of the arguement... it could go much deeper. Many valid points do come up in previous posts so I won't repeat known FACTS! In regards to "farmers" treating their charges, it is a much different situation and not like comparing "apples to oranges". Keepers treating their specimens is done to save the lives of the specimens in their care. Not to modify a specimen to make it "safe" for someone who is incapable of handling a true hot! It's also a way of getting around laws in certain areas. If laws were passed saying you could only have dogs that couldn't bite or chase you would it be ethical to cut off it's legs and remove the teeth? Again the debate has several levels... ethics, morals, the well being of the specimen, (including the very reason that venoms have evolved in the first place), wether it's conducted by a veterinarian, etc. etc. Does anyone realize that when you declaw a cat, that it's not just the visable claw that is removed. It's much the same as taking your fingers off at the knuckle. What about taking out the canines? Again another surgery done to make someone feel safer because they are incapable of handling the animal intact. Another question? Why does anyone want a venomoid in the first place??? My only answers are... To show off or impress people with the fact that they have a venomous species. The problem is that they don't have the experience or the BALLS to work with a hot! No offense to women who keep hots! LOL's! I know this is not my typical non-emotionally fact filled response and I hope everyone will forgive that... I'm just fed up with people who state that they love and care for animals yet, when it comes to this they throw ethics and morals out the door. In the end what you do in life WILL come back to haunt you. Enough....

[Mustangrde1]

Well spoken Raymond. From a person who has been on a rescue with you and seen some of the rescues you have done I know beyound a doubt you speak the truth. I know you have dumped your own valuable time and energy in to animals that finacialy will never remburse your cost which goes to your love of the animals.

People who are willing to put fourth their time , knowledge , energy and money in a animal to help it at all cost certainly are what this hobby needs. People who butcher a animal to give themselves and others a false since of security and the ability to show off should just go buy a porche or ferrari and get the hell out of the hobby.

[Dani33]

Firstly, Dani, there are no 'permits' required for Ontarians to own venomous snakes. That isn't true in every province, but it is here. They are prohibited in many municipalites (with no permits available) but if you live somewhere else, no problem. There are actually quite a few hot keepers in Ontario, which I find disturbing despite the fact that I am one myself in about the smallest possible way.

Thanks for the info. Jeff. I was under the impression that not many Candaian kept hots. With the exception of zoos, for education etc. I never really thought of it as something easily attainable here (the animals or legalities). Of course it comes down to municupalities along with the rest of our "critter laws".

I am still under the impression that most of the canadians who have replied to this thread do not keep hots and still have the same opinion as most here.

Regardless, I still stand with the same opinion. That keeping them and the surgeries involved are unethical and inhumane.

[carpetman]

Hey Mustangrde1
:o

[Mustangrde1]

.... ...

[tHeGiNo]

To buy a porsche i think you need to know how to spell it ,,mabye i will by a porsche,,it would go well with my brothers Viper and my Sisters Mercedes,,Living it up in Naples..Sucker

Before you comment on others grammar, why don't you pick up a book your self and learn that to take a break, you only use one comma. And run on sentences aren't the best either. Also sister doesn't need a capital. Nor does 'living' after a comma.

On a little side note, how old are you, eight? I mean, to call someone a 'sucker,' wow. I also doubt any of your family members have a Viper or a Mercedes, just the way you said it.

[sapphire_moon]

Ok, I just HAD to jump in. Sorry if I said something that is already been said. lol.


I do not own hots, Yet I am VERY against the creation of venomoids.

And who ever does (unless it is a rescue of some sort) is a sick and twisted person who likes the little amount of "control" he has over nature.
If you want to own a beautiful creature that happens to be venomous then you must take the caution and procedures that go with it. You as the keeper must keep yourself safe from this snake, you must respect it. As you must respect all animals, venomous/dangerous or not. You are the one that wants to keep it, so you are the one that has to keep it properly.

Selling a venomoid is like selling a guard dog with his teeth ripped out. HIS main line of defense is gone, as well as how he eats.

Even if snakes do not have personalities, do not have emotions like humans, I am sure that they feel pain, go ahead and pinch one real hard, see how it reacts. And I am sure that they feel a type of "depression" or some call it extreme stress due to being hacked on.

Seeing any herp/animal/ living creature hacked up to satisfy a humans need for a cheap thrill is absolutely sick, twisted, and disgusting.

[Mustangrde1]

Oh thank god no one tries to correct my spelling I would certainly be a English teachers wourse nightmare lol. Im curious though *** Gino said it and made me look and think wasnt Carpet from Ontario when he started these post????

[tHeGiNo]

It definitely was not Naples, Florida.

[sapphire_moon]

Oh and I love hots, I think they have the most beautiful colorations.
If I were single, and had no one else to think of I wouldn't think twice about finding me a hot keeper to train with........for a few years. lol my fave is the gaboon viper, I love the way they look, And I would love to get a pic of one some day (that I take myself). Preferably through glass wall. lol :)

[Mustangrde1]

Sappire

Go out and look for them in the wild . take a nice cam with a good zoom, stay out of strike range and take a million pictures. Nothing is as fine as wild animals in their own hobitat for taking pics of.

[rwg]

heh heh...I dont think you'll find many gaboons in their natural habitat anywhere near Kansas. :)

rg

[Dani33]

Yes, he is from Ontario. He's the guy who started the thread about camping on Lake Erie and worried that he might get bit by an E. Massasauga - lol.

[herpetological]

Do you currently keep any venomous or venomoid species.???

[scalawag]

Quote from January:
I am visiting Florida in March and am thinking about importing some snakes,I have checked my local by-laws on exotic animals and there is no restrictions,it,s just border crossing,that i am worried about,most will be non-venomous,but a few will be,any info would be much aprecieated..Thanks Carpetman

So He is from Canada, He is in Florida and he is looking to import Venomous(probably Venomoids)

[Mustangrde1]

Hmmm transportation across state lines hmmmm. possession of venomous without a permit hmmmm oh ya and FL conciders a void a hot so you have to have the VRL. Worried about being bitten by what appears to be a very rare species in a certain area hmmmmm. Paging DR Sigmund Feud we have an emergancy in the Venomous Forum please bring couch and long sleaved white jacket.

[Mustangrde1]

LIABILITY If a person is sold a hot as a hot then they the buyer know and accept the risk of possible envenomation thus they absorb the cost of thier mistake

LIABILITY If a person buys a venomoid and is assured it is completely safe as some claim on their adds or via contact with a potential buyer then who accepts the $50,000.00 Hospital bill when they get bit????

Little more food for thought before buying

[Jeff Hathaway]

Oh boy, I hope carpetman doesn't find anything in Florida:-)

As for the liability, I assume the hospital will bill the person bitten or their insurer. Said parties could then sue the dealer, and would likely win, though I suspect that at least part of the cost would still lie with them due to the concept known as contributory negligence- i.e. they should have known better... Of course, in Canada, the cost of treatment would be paid by the government (and hence, by all of us taxpayers). Bet there'd still be a lawsuit for 'pain and suffering' though!

In the same vein, don't be too sure that the buyer of a known venomous snake is accepting all the risk and the dealer is safe. Someone could still sue them (parents of a teen who dies from a bite, partner of the deceased, even the person bitten if they survive) and win considerable damages because the dealer should have known that there was a chance they could be bitten. 95% plaintiff : 5% defendant? Perhaps, but 5% could still be a lot of money. Liability and negligence lawsuits are wonderful things, aren't they?

No comments yet on what I was suggesting regarding the legality issue, other than the various state animal cruelty laws. I can see a few ways any lawyer could get around some of the laws listed.

Don't think I'm defending the practice- I just think that we can't say "All venomoids are illegal". Following that, there is the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty. Still wonder why no one is following up these offences?

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Gregg M]

Hey Jeff,
Scotts post right bellow yours was clear enough for me to see the legalities of void operations........ It falls under all of those cruelty catagories....... If a person is not a licensed vet it is against the law to perform surgery on them...... And if you have not seen a void operation it is very invasive........ Having the skills to do something and being licensed to do something are two different things....... Hey I am skilled enough to handle just about any hot snake you can buy but I only have a license for Gaboons, puffs, rhinos, and EDBs......... If I kept anything other than those species it would be illegal and I am sure alot of hot keepers and non hot keepers, would look down on me for keeping illegal animals........ If you need all the facts on legalities and mortality %s just PM Scott....... He has half this stuff memorized........ I still need to refer to notes......LOL......

[Mustangrde1]

Jeff for me to post over a year of research would break my fingers. The laws are not only on a state by state level but on Federal levels. Just a few of the agencies that over see animals and animal laws each mind you with laws they to can enforce are.
United States Fish and Wildlife, United States Department of Agriculture, American Veterinary Association, State DNR/F&G, State Agriculuter offices, State ASPCA offices, County HUmain Society Officers. the list goes on and on. Now imagine each with their own codes of enforcement. That is why i try just to give a few of the literally thousands of laws pertaining to animals.

As for an attourney being able to fight it, I am not sure that a voider would like to bring first the publicity to their art{ lol} and secound they most likely on arrest would be facing so many diffrent violations up to an including Illegal medications and god only knows what else if a DA truly was an animal lover. But i would bet a host of charges.That the voider would preffer to plead out and pray for mercy.

It would be interesting to hear or better yet have an attourney come on here and post thier veiws on the legalities.

[sapphire_moon]

lol, I don't think we are going to find any here, and even if I were to I don't really think I would go out looking for a hot! I would much rather go to someone that keeps them and take some pics. But I do agree, I love it when I see pics of them all camaflouged in leaf litter :D, and I love the avatar that Gregg M has. Such a beautiful snake :)

[Jeff Hathaway]

Guys,

I'm not doubting the mortality rates, invasiveness of the procedure, etc. To summarize my previous post:

1) You don't need a license to perform various 'veterinary' practices on your own animals. Therefore no law is broken here (assuming one is skilled at surgery, which is a big assumption) other than the cruelty of not using appropriate drugs, and the underlying cruelty of the whole idea.

2) Some people who are not licensed veterinarians DO legally have access to controlled drugs. So combine this with 1) and in such a case all you have left is the underlying cruelty of the procedure, which I think from a legal perspective is highly arguable in a court, at least in some cases.

I'm not saying any of this applies to anyone doing venomoid hack jobs, but realize that it would have to be *proven* that it doesn't.

Finally, no one has addressed the possibility that procedures done in another country would not be covered by the cruelty to animals legislation found in either of our countries, at least to my knowledge.

So I still think that one shouldn't say "Venomoids are illegal". I think it should be "Most venomoids are illegal". Perhaps "almost all venomoids are illegal." This is, of course, just my opinion- you say whatever you want:-)

I'm the kind of guy who rarely uses words like never and always!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Gregg M]

Hey Jeff,
I do understand what you are saying......... You are right, not all voids are illegaly done, but every single void dealer I have contacted so far tells my they are NOT done by a licensed vet........ I can also say that all of these voids are produced here in the states......... If they were imported from another Country I an sure they would cost double of what they cost now.......... I think it is also safe to say that in some states, it would be illegal to have one of these illegaly produced voids......... You would be contributing to and perpetuating an illegal act......... Also most of us have alredy stated that we would not have as BIG of a problem if these were produced legaly and humanely, but lets face it, you know and I know that the vast majority are not done this way......... Oh and I also do not think I have made any "blanket" statements at all here.......... I have the proof in all my emails to and from void dealers.........
P.S. Thanks Sapphire, If you look in my gallery, you will see a big pic of my avatar and some other nice pics......:)

[Mustangrde1]

1) You don't need a license to perform various 'veterinary' practices on your own animals. Therefore no law is broken here (assuming one is skilled at surgery, which is a big assumption) other than the cruelty of not using appropriate drugs, and the underlying cruelty of the whole idea.

Jeff
Again this is not a minor surgery it is in fact a very major surgery in a region that has numerous muscles , vascular veins and nerves thus being drastic in pain and suffering to the animal without narcotics to aid it. This creates undo pain and sufferage which is against the laws period no grounds for arguement. Also it is removal of a organ again against the law no maybe's about it The laws are clear on organ removal ITS A CRIME. Combine with illegally obtained narcotics another illegal activity

2) Some people who are not licensed veterinarians DO legally have access to controlled drugs. So combine this with 1) and in such a case all you have left is the underlying cruelty of the procedure, which I think from a legal perspective is highly arguable in a court, at least in some cases.

No doubt some people that are not Dr's or Vets have access to narcotics but how many of them would perform or have the skills to perform the operation under all the federaly mandated guidelines for surgical care in Pre-op ,Surgery and Postoperative care and keep the Mandated legal records? Also in keeping with the letter of the law it goes back to removal of an organ , cruelty , pain and sufferage and performing a surgical operation without a license along with standards of care required. The standards of care have to be met.

Finally, no one has addressed the possibility that procedures done in another country would not be covered by the cruelty to animals legislation found in either of our countries, at least to my knowledge.

I tried not to address this because I get upset when I do but here goes.

Jeff. the cost of a venomoid is $500.00 on up no Importer I know would pay $500.00 for a venomoid plus shipping the broker fee's aircargo expenses it would be such a loss to them its not funny when they can order them here for about $175.00 wholesale.

Ok now for the upsetting part. Animals overseas that have organs removed are not removed for export as a venomoid they are used for the myth of sexual inhancement {aphrodisiac}. In many cases numerous organs are remove and the blood drank and the animal ate and skin used in the skin trade. These animal are kept in horrid conditions with only one outcome DEATH for no ******* reason other then a myth and mans want to become better in the sack or the myth of prolonged life. I have seen to many documented pictures of this and very little brings me to tears but that does everytime. I try to maintain my composer as best I can but I associate Venomoid surgery by backyard hack as the same as those overseas doing it for aphrodisiac's the outcome 90% of the time is death.

Jeff I love a good debate and I see where your comming from and appreciate your veiws keep them comming just makes me think more and look for more legal ways to stop it.

[Mustangrde1]

Ok for Sapphire I call on all VENOMOUS handlers to start a new thread full of pictures hell for everyone lets show people what the real deal should look like. I have to go to work now so I leave it to someone else to start the thread and everyone else to join in with their pictures.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey guys,

It's a good fight- keep fighting it:-) Gregg, I never read your kingsnake posts, as I rarely use that site anymore. Since they started charging for Canadian ads, the traffic has all come here. I can't recall who said it, but they were right- it is the members/posters who make the site worth reading. So, I can't comment on your posts, and what might have got them deleted, but here's a statement from your initial post in this thread- "I simply replied that it is not illegal to sell hots but it is illegal to make venomoids if the persons are not licensed...... "

That's a blanket statement, and that is what I was addressing with my arguments in favour of the word *most*. A significant difference from a legal point of view. I realize these forums are not courtrooms, but with the direction you're going with this issue, you've got to realize that eventually it may come to that. In fact, you've stated that you want to see these people charged, and frankly, I hope some of them are!

Scott, I never said anything about it being a minor surgery, though I think a ductectomy would qualify as such. Cruelty laws aside, one can do a heart transplant on one's own animal and not be 'practicing veterinary medicine'. It is this law that I'm referring to, not cruelty ones. Also, organ removal is not a crime, other wise farmers would go to jail routinely for castrating cows, horses, etc. Not to mention the pain involved with dehorning, debeaking birds, etc. If people raised gaboon vipers for their meat or skins (no doubt a silly proposition), I think ductectomies by unlicensed persons might be a routine aspect of their husbandry (if only it didn't cause them to starve...), disturbing as that sounds. And no one would go to jail for it.

For the next part- "No doubt some people that are not Dr's or Vets have access to narcotics but how many of them would perform or have the skills to perform the operation under all the federaly mandated guidelines for surgical care in Pre-op ,Surgery and Postoperative care and keep the Mandated legal records?"

Not many, obviously. But I personally know of 4, and I'm sure there are others. Now all of these people are research biologists, and I'm sure that they aren't making venomoids. But it *could* happen. Of course, I'm not familiar with US statutes regarding surgical care, as I'm in Canada, but one of the 4 I know is in the US, and I'm sure he does what he does legally.

"Also in keeping with the letter of the law it goes back to removal of an organ , cruelty , pain and sufferage and performing a surgical operation without a license along with standards of care required. The standards of care have to be met. "

I think I already covered the first sentence here aqequately, and as I've already illustrated, the standards of care clearly CAN be met by a small number of unlicensed people.

Sorry to get you upset:-( It really is a sad topic to think about. But as for the importing- "the cost of a venomoid is $500.00 on up no Importer I know would pay $500.00 for a venomoid plus shipping the broker fee's aircargo expenses it would be such a loss to them its not funny when they can order them here for about $175.00 wholesale."

$500 would be retail in the US, right? What does a gaboon viper cost if you order a 100 or so WC specimens right out of Africa? Would $50 be a reasonable guess? And of course, a bunch of that cost is made up of shipping, permits, etc. What's the animal really worth to the guy in Africa, $20? So let's say he pays some poor people to hack them up. After a learning curve where they all die, they could probably get good enough to rival the guys here. So let's say 9 die for every one that lives. The $20 survivor is now worth $200. So the dealer adds another $50 to make it worthwhile, then add the $30 for shipping/permits (their cost hasn't changed), and now the lone survivor is $280, landed in the US. That's got to be cheaper than buying 10 imports at $50, and having a US citizen, who's time is worth a lot more than some poor African's, hack them up. Please realize that all of these numbers are just guesses for the sake of illustration. I'm sure they're not accurate, but they get the point across. I think the only thing stopping the mass import of venomoids is that the demand is still not that great in the scheme of things. Thankfully it is still just a bunch of boobs in their garages. Imagine if a country like Vietnam started producing venomoids for export! Now that's frightening:-)

Anyway, back to the original point- if you're going to make statements about the legality of something, you owe it to yourself, if no one else, to be careful and accurate. Otherwise you might be the one who gets sued:-)

Talk to you soon!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Mustangrde1]

I have posted a link that takes you to all 50 states animal cruelty sites and laws, but so as there can be ABSOULUTLY NO DOUBT ABOUT IT I WILL DO IT AGAIN......

NORTH CAROLINA STATUTES
CHAPTER 14. CRIMINAL LAW.
SUBCHAPTER XI. GENERAL POLICE REGULATIONS.
ARTICLE 47. CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.

14-360 Cruelty to animals; construction of section.
(a) If any person shall intentionally overdrive, overload, wound, injure, torment, kill, or deprive of necessary sustenance, or cause or procure to be overdriven, overloaded, wounded, injured, tormented, killed, or deprived of necessary sustenance, any animal, every such offender shall for every such offense be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

(b) If any person shall maliciously torture, mutilate, maim, cruelly beat, disfigure, poison, or kill, or cause or procure to be tortured, mutilated, maimed, cruelly beaten, disfigured, poisoned, or killed, any animal, every such offender shall for every such offense be guilty of a Class I felony.

(c) As used in this section, the words "torture", "torment", and "cruelly" include or refer to any act, omission, or neglect causing or permitting unjustifiable pain, suffering, or death. As used in this section, the word "intentionally" refers to an act committed knowingly and without justifiable excuse, while the word "maliciously" means an act committed intentionally and with malice or bad motive. As used in this section, the term "animal" includes every living vertebrate in the classes Amphibia, Reptilia, Aves, and Mammalia except human beings. However, this section shall not apply to the following activities:

Now "B" spells it out very clear as to what is a FELONY and "C'" specifically mentions Reptilia.


FLORIDA STATUTES
TITLE XLVI. CRIMES
CHAPTER 828. ANIMALS: CRUELTY; SALES; ANIMAL ENTERPRISE PROTECTION

828.02. Definitions

In this chapter, and in every law of the state relating to or in any way affecting animals, the word "animal" shall be held to include every living dumb creature; the words "torture," "torment," and "cruelty" shall be held to include every act, omission, or neglect whereby unnecessary or unjustifiable pain or suffering is caused, except when done in the interest of medical science, permitted, or allowed to continue when there is reasonable remedy or relief; and the words "owner" and "person" shall be held to include corporations, and the knowledge and acts of agents and employees of corporations in regard to animals transported, owned, employed by or in the custody of a corporation, shall be held to be the knowledge and act of such corporation.

828.12. Cruelty to animals

(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

Note they say Mutilates and also notes pain and suffering.


NEW YORK STATUTES
AGRICULTURE AND MARKETS LAW
CHAPTER 69 OF THE CONSOLIDATED LAWS
ARTICLE 26--ANIMALS

353. Overdriving, torturing and injuring animals; failure to provide proper sustenance
A person who overdrives, overloads, tortures or cruelly beats or unjustifiably injures, maims, mutilates or kills any animal, whether wild or tame, and whether belonging to himself or to another, or deprives any animal of necessary sustenance, food or drink, or neglects or refuses to furnish it such sustenance or drink, or causes, procures or permits any animal to be overdriven, overloaded, tortured, cruelly beaten, or unjustifiably injured, maimed, mutilated or killed, or to be deprived of necessary food or drink, or who wilfully sets on foot, instigates, engages in, or in any way furthers any act of cruelty to any animal, or any act tending to produce such cruelty, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars, or by both.

Again we see mutilates and further goes on to say ANY ACT TENDING TO PRODUCE SUCH CRUELTY


Texas Cruelty to Animals Statutes
TEXAS STATUTES
HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE
TITLE 10. HEALTH AND SAFETY OF ANIMALS
CHAPTER 821. TREATMENT AND DISPOSITION OF ANIMALS
SUBCHAPTER A. TREATMENT OF ANIMALS
42.09. Cruelty to Animals
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly:
(1) tortures an animal;
(2) fails unreasonably to provide necessary food, care, or shelter for an animal in the person's custody;
(3) abandons unreasonably an animal in the person's custody;
(4) transports or confines an animal in a cruel manner;
(5) kills, seriously injures, or administers poison to an animal, other than cattle, horses, sheep, swine, or goats, belonging to another without legal authority or the owner's effective consent;
(6) causes one animal to fight with another;
(7) uses a live animal as a lure in dog race training or in dog coursing on a racetrack;
(8) trips a horse;
(9) injures an animal, other than cattle, horses, sheep, swine, or goats, belonging to another without legal authority or the owner's effective consent; or
(10) seriously overworks an animal.

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor was engaged in bona fide experimentation for scientific research.

(c) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Abandon" includes abandoning an animal in the person's custody without making reasonable arrangements for assumption of custody by another person.
(2) "Animal" means a domesticated living creature and wild living creature previously captured. "Animal" does not include
an uncaptured wild creature or a wild creature whose capture was accomplished by conduct at issue under this section.
(3) "Cruel manner" includes a manner that causes or permits unjustified or unwarranted pain or suffering.
(4) "Custody" includes responsibility for the health, safety, and welfare of an animal subject to the person's care and control, regardless of ownership of the animal.
(5) "Necessary food, care, or shelter" includes food, care, or shelter provided to the extent required to maintain the animal in a state of good health.
(6) "Trip" means to use an object to cause a horse to fall or lose its balance.

(d) An offense under Subsection (a)(2), (3), (4), (9), or (10) is a Class A misdemeanor, except that the offense is a state jail felony if the person has previously been convicted two times under this section.

(e) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the animal was discovered on the person's property in the act of or immediately after injuring or killing the person's goats, sheep, cattle, horses, swine, or poultry and that the person killed or injured the animal at the time of this discovery.

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(8) that the actor tripped the horse for the purpose of identifying the ownership of the horse or giving veterinary care to the horse.

(g) An offense under Subsection (a)(1), (5), (6), (7), or is a state jail felony, except that the offense is a felony of the third degree if the person has previously been convicted two times under this section.

(g) It is a defense to prosecution for an offense under this section that the person had a reasonable fear of bodily injury to the person or to another by a dangerous wild animal as defined by Section 822.101, Health and Safety Code

(h) It is an exception to the application of this section that the conduct engaged in by the actor is a generally accepted and otherwise lawful:
(1) use of an animal if that use occurs solely for the purpose of:
(A) fishing, hunting, or trapping; or
(B) wildlife control as regulated by state and federal law; or
(2) animal husbandry or farming practice involving livestock

MICHIGAN STATUTES
CHAPTER 750. MICHIGAN PENAL CODE
CHAPTER IX. ANIMALS
750.50b. Willfully and maliciously killing or injuring animals; administering poison to animals; punishment, costs of animal care; probation, need for counseling, relinquishment of animals; exceptions
(1) As used in this section, "animal" means any vertebrate other than a human being.

(2) A person who willfully, maliciously and without just cause or excuse kills, tortures, mutilates, maims, or disfigures an animal or who willfully and maliciously and without just cause or excuse administers poison to an animal, or exposes an animal to any poisonous substance, other than a substance that is used for therapeutic veterinary medical purposes, with the intent that the substance be taken or swallowed by the animal, is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years, or by a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or community service for not more than 500 hours or any combination of these penalties.

God i love that one FELONY 4 YEARS possible.....

These are excerps from a few states as the entire law/laws would take 10 forums to hold lol... I think its clear that laws are there to provent Cruelty and disfigurement. these are not speculative or possibles these are factual laws on the book that can and do need to be enforced. And as they are criminal offenses do make it ILLEGAL. More to come later

[Gregg M]

I guess Scott just pointed out how my statement was far from a "blanket" one......

[Mustangrde1]

Animal Welfair Act Surgical Law... sorry my converter broke down on this one. but here is the link

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/policy/policy3.pdf

Any more questions on just how ILLEGAL it is atleast in the US and probably Canada just aint found Candas { yet}

[Mustangrde1]

$500 would be retail in the US, right? What does a gaboon viper cost if you order a 100 or so WC specimens right out of Africa? Would $50 be a reasonable guess? And of course, a bunch of that cost is made up of shipping, permits, etc. What's the animal really worth to the guy in Africa, $20? So let's say he pays some poor people to hack them up. After a learning curve where they all die, they could probably get good enough to rival the guys here. So let's say 9 die for every one that lives. The $20 survivor is now worth $200. So the dealer adds another $50 to make it worthwhile, then add the $30 for shipping/permits (their cost hasn't changed), and now the lone survivor is $280, landed in the US. That's got to be cheaper than buying 10 imports at $50, and having a US citizen, who's time is worth a lot more than some poor African's, hack them up. Please realize that all of these numbers are just guesses for the sake of illustration. I'm sure they're not accurate, but they get the point across. I think the only thing stopping the mass import of venomoids is that the demand is still not that great in the scheme of things. Thankfully it is still just a bunch of boobs in their garages. Imagine if a country like Vietnam started producing venomoids for export! Now that's frightening:-)

Jeff all well and good thinking. But the exporters know the value of these altered animals and would charge accourdingly maybe not market value here but at a considerable higher amount than a true hot. Hence the importer would still be better off buying hot and having it done here on trade or barter then paying the exporter and all fees. I think Either of the Ray's are more qualified on this to answer

[Jeff Hathaway]

Gregg, what Scott pointed out was that your statement may, according to him, be correct. That doesn't change the fact that it is a 'blanket' statement. And, as I'll show below, I don't agree that it is necessarily correct. Note that this doesn't mean I don't agree with what you're saying, but that I think your blanket statement is too strong, and doesn't allow for *any* other potentialities, however rare they might be.

Scott, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the import/export thing, but personally if the dealer in a foreign country saw a way to make tons of cash, I think they'd take it, and they'd surely be able to undercut the prices of anyone in the US. Even so, someone could purchase the animals in the foreign country, get the procedure done, and then bring them over. Voila, no worries about cruelty laws.

On to the other stuff:

I read the APHIS link. Neat stuff. The aseptic techniques and pre/post care wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but the "dedicated surgical facility" could be. But then, I checked into the definition of "animal" which is not found on that page. It is on http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/awa.html#2132. To save you the time, here it is:

"(g) The term "animal" means any live or dead dog, cat, monkey (nonhuman primate mammal), guinea pig, hamster, rabbit, or such other warm-blooded animal, as the Secretary may determine is being used, or is intended for use, for research, testing, experimentation, or exhibition purposes, or as a pet; but such term excludes (1) birds, rats of the genus Rattus, and mice of the genus Mus, bred for use in research,[effective 2003] (2) horses not used for research purposes, and (3)horses not used for research purposes and other farm animals, such as, but not limited to livestock or poultry, used or intended for use as food or fiber, or livestock or poultry used or intended for use for improving animal nutrition, breeding, management, or production efficiency, or for improving the quality of food or fiber. With respect to a dog, the term means all dogs including those used for hunting, security, or breeding purposes;"

For the purposes of this legislation, reptiles are not "animals". So forget about that law, unless it gets changed.

As for the state laws: North Carolina, 14-360(c)- note the word "justifiable". Do you honestly think a lawyer couldn't convince a judge and/or jury that making a 'deadly' snake into a 'non-deadly' snake isn't unjustifiable. We have a hard enough time even trying to convince them that someone who kills a threatened harmless species of snake did something wrong and deserves to be fined. Besides which, if it makes the animal worth 10X as much, couldn't that alone be considered a form of justification for many people (not us, obviously). If it was done under anesthetic and with a reasonable standard of surgical care, I doubt anyone in NC would be convicted.

Florida- yes they say mutilates and mention pain and suffering. They also include the words unjustifiable and unnecessary in EVERY paragraph you posted. And I doubt a court would see a reasonably performed adenectomy with whatever those inserts are called to prevent the 'sunken' look as a mutilation. Definitely a ductectomy wouldn't be called mutilation, I think, as far as the legal description would entail.

NY- again the word justifiable. This gives an awful lot of leeway to even the worst attorney you could find.

Texas- 42.09. Cruelty to Animals
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly:
(1) tortures an animal;
This is the only part of 42.09(a) that applies. (a)(2) through (10) and (b) don't apply. Again, with reasonable care, one could very likely make a convincing argument that it is not 'torture'. However, even if that wasn't the case, look at this statement,42.09(c)(6)(g): "(g) It is a defense to prosecution for an offense under this section that the person had a reasonable fear of bodily injury to the person or to another by a dangerous wild animal as defined by Section 822.101, Health and Safety Code" So if the hacker had a reasonable fear of bodily injury, they can use this defense. Who doesn't have a reasonable fear of bodily injury from a venomous snake???

Michigan: 750.50b.(2) "A person who willfully, maliciously and without just cause or excuse" There it is again.

So find me a state whose animal cruelty laws don't have a way for someone to successfully defend against them. So far I don't see it. I agree with the intent of the law (and yours) but these laws are notoriously unenforceable, and not just with respect to venomoids.

Now, of course, an enlightened judge and/or jury MIGHT convict someone. But if I was a hacker I wouldn't exactly be shaking in my boots.

Good night!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[MsTT]

Originally posted by Gregg M I had a rescued venomoid gaboon viper that was poopin out half digested mice........ Can you explain that???? All my other hot gaboons are thriving but the one void died due to starvation when I fed it as frequently as all my others........ The necropcy was done by a vet...... No signs of a virus, bateria, or worms to put it simply......... It staved to death.......

The lack of envenomating prey does not result in starvation. Venomous snakes in captivity don't normally envenomate their food, they just open up and swallow.

If you found half-digested mice in the cage, my guess would be that they were not pooped, but regurgitated. The presence of urates and feces around or on top of the mouse still doesn't guarantee that it's not a regurge; they can both regurge and poop on the same day and in the same corner. If you did not see the half digested mouse come out of the animal's cloaca you should assume it was a regurgitation.

You could not have eliminated the possibility of a virus without some *very* expensive PCR tests - and even then it's not 100%. You can get a paramyxo check for $30 plus $35 FedEx shipping; I do it routinely for new introductions to my collection as I am paranoid. But there are other viruses that affect snakes that have not been well studied; there aren't any PCR's for them. The PCR's that do exist run into the hundreds of dollars and they're not hugely effective on snakes anyhow. In short you can never really eliminate the possibility of a virus, though you can make some guesses based on clinical symptoms.

Assuming husbandry was good (adequate heat, hydration and hide), my first guess would be some sort of gastrointestinal dysfunction. I would do a direct smear (not just a fecal float) to check for amoebas. I might have done endoscopy, ultrasound or x-rays to check for physical blockage or damage on the live animal. I would have done a tracheal wash also, and possibly a C&S with directions to look for fungal hyphae as well as bacterial overgrowth.

On a limited budget or no access to diagnostic tools, I'd simply whack the animal with 50mg/kg Flagyl three or four times, every three or four days. If the surgery was recent the animal would be getting pain meds also, probably Butorphanol or buprenorphine or both. As a support measure I'd probably put the animal on Ceftazidime too, a broad spectrum injectable antibiotic with a 72 hour dose frequency so that it would time nicely with the Flagyl treatments. Immunodepressed snakes benefit from support antibiotics even if their primary issue isn't bacterial.

I'll hook my vet up to your vet if you like and let them talk. I think your vet's diagnosis of death by starvation due to lack of venom is dead wrong, and he missed something major on the necropsy. I think that whatever that something was might have been discovered and treated when the animal was alive. If you can help your vet improve his knowledge it would be helpful in the future. I strongly recommend Dr. Michael Garner's ZooPath Laboratories for your necropsy needs; he has a lot of clincal experience with venomous snake necropsies, and he is not likely to miss anything.

I do agree that it could have been a consequence of the venomoid procedure. Abuse like that can do significant damage to a snake's immune system, making it harder for them to resist opportunistic infections. A debilitated and stressed animal may simply go into gastrointestinal stasis, meaning that the digestive system basically stops working. That's certainly a possibility in this kind of case.

[MsTT]

As a side note, any able bodied person who feels the need to mutilate a snake before he can keep it should be bloody well ashamed of himself. I am an out of shape older lady with bad knees and thick glasses, and I have no great difficulty catching large adult king cobras and mambas for hands-on procedures while lecturing calmly to a watching group of veterinarians about the techniques I am using. Medicating vipers is one of those routine chores to be done before breakfast. Tube on head, hands on snake, medicine in snake, coffee break, repeat for as many patients as are on the day's roster. I have no great physical abilities, but they simply aren't necessary. If you're not actually in a wheelchair you can easily handle venomous snakes.

Working with hots is just not that hard, and people who aren't operating a venomous snake veterinary rescue and research service will never need to do as much hands-on work as I am doing. Any yahoo with a hook and some Gentle Giant tongs can move a snake around and keep its cage clean, and any vet with a bit of instruction can sedate one with a quick jab from a pole syringe or with a Rubbermaid container piped full of isoflurane gas. So what's the excuse for mutilating them? I don't think there is one.

[Mustangrde1]

Jeff once the courts start seeing these cases we will see what the laws will do. The laws are there and can be enforced and attourneys are there to twist them and bend them. I still fully believe a good D.A. could make a very strong case and still believe no animal hacker would want to spend the money to fight it hence giving presidance to the laws for future refferance.

With many states laws specifically stating Reptilia or Reptile in their deffintions I do beleive they would win. All be it granted that the fines are not always as stiff as we would like but that goes for all animal cruelty charges.

As to the importing i will let either Ray Hunter or Ray Goushaw answer that as it is their bussiness and they have a far better grasp on what the cost would most likely be.

With the knowledge thats out there and the laws that could be enforced only time will tell and its comming soon i believe.

Best thing for now for anyone who has the ethics and morals to stand to their convictions is not to frequent or contribute money to sites, magazines, classifieds that allow the sales of venomoids.

Voicing our whole hearted opinions and unwillingness to condone this mutilation or be part of places that allow it other then to voice our opinion may one day be heard by some of the places and they will say { VENOMOIDS FREE magazine, website, classfied etc etc} Myself I would visit that site and be willing to spend my hard earned money on it and its vendors then one that by action of allowing them to be sold there condone it.

[Gregg M]

Well MsTT,
I can say with 100% certainty it was "pooped" out because I watched it happen on 3 separate occations.........
I would not just "through" something out there like that unless the facts were infront of my face........
I must say MsTT, this would be the only thing I will have to disaggree with you on out of ANY post I have ever read of yours........LOL.......
I feel that some species DO need their venom to fully digest their food.........
Especially an animal with as highly of a hemo/cytotoxic venom as Old world vipers............
Those venoms are just too necrotic, too fast..........
If you can pass me the info to your vet, that would be great......... Two heads are better than one.........
The vet was the one that said starvation, I was the one that figured it was because it was lacking a digestive tool......... Also Are you 100% sure that hots in captivity do not inject venom
into their prey while "walking" it back down their throats???? All of my Bitis inject dead rats and mice at every feeding.......
They strike at it as if it was alive even though it is not moving........ All of my gaboons and rhinos hold on for up to a minute.......... And all my puff strike at it, let it go, and sit and wait for a few minutes........
And this ranges from neonates to 5 and a half foot adults......... Did you consider that even if you have a gaboon that does not have a strong feed responce ( hardly ever lol ) it can still envenomate while walking a prey item back..........
It does not have to inject the larger amount needed to kill its prey but I am sure it needs it to some degree......... Thats all for now........
MsTT, your input is respected, and I look foward to hearing your reply.......... Thanks......

[herpetological]

Just responding in regards to the pros and cons of "import Venomoids". First we have to realize that our culture and views are much different than other countries. For the most part the species which most commonly are put through the procedure in the U.S. are realtively inexpensive commonly imported species. They come from dealers in for the most part in "Third world economies". The idea of conducting the surgery does not occur to them and they see no reason for it. They seem to laugh at such an idea. Also, most of the specimens they get are sold quickly. (No shortage of customers for cobras in Asian countries) For them the additional cost and mortality rate would make it unfeasable for them. Now if we were discussing re-exports of specimens from say, Germany, Holland, Belgium etc. It is possible but, rare to have the surgeries done. They have the technology but, again, they generally see no reason for it. It seems to be a U.S. mindset. Not that is has never been done outside the U.S. Next if an importer were considering importing venomoid specimens they would have to consider the liability. How do you know a specimen has had the surgery done or if it has been done correctly. Scary thought. If the surgery were done in Ghana or Thailand what condition do yo think the specimens would arrive in? It's hard enough for them to supply good animals to begin with. Last but, not least.... There is a limited market for venomoids. Any import shipment is expensive. Fish & Wildlife fees, broker fees, CITES fees if they apply, shipping costs etc. Therefore, to make it worthwhile you would need a number of specimens on a given shipment. In 25 years i've never had a foreign supplier offer a venomoid or even mention it. Also, in closing... Anyone who has enough money can get a lawyer that will twist the law and find loopholes. It depends on how deep your pockets are.

[MsTT]

Originally posted by Gregg M
I can say with 100% certainty it was "pooped" out because I watched it happen on 3 separate occations.........

As I said, if you actually saw it then that's what happened. Otherwise I'd assume a regurge. I'd consider that a much more serious problem.


I feel that some species DO need their venom to fully digest their food.........
Especially an animal with as highly of a hemo/cytotoxic venom as Old world vipers............
Those venoms are just too necrotic, too fast..........

That does seem like a logical idea, but captive animals do fine when fed dead prey - and even severely cytotoxic venom has minimal effects on dead meat because it binds up in a small area and doesn't spread. Try shooting some Gaboon venom into a piece of steak sometime. I am aware of one Gaboon viper born with no teeth whatsoever - this animal may have had venom glands but it had a mouth like a frog's. It could not envenomate. It lived a long, normal and healthy life eating prekilled food with the rest of its littermates.



If you can pass me the info to your vet, that would be great......... Two heads are better than one.........

Out of courtesy to my vet, I will only pass his contact information directly to other veterinarians.


the vet was the one that said starvation, I was the one that figured it was because it was lacking a digestive tool.........

GI stasis can cause the symptoms you are describing, as can several other conditions. I wouldn't jump to conclusions.


Also Are you 100% sure that hots in captivity do not inject venom into their prey while "walking" it back down their throats????

In the case of the toothless Gaboon, yes. In some other cases with other species, also yes because I have a good closeup view of the walking and the fangs remained folded.

With the feeding response of most Gaboons, no. I think they do envenomate, but I also don't think it has a lot of effect on dead meat. BGF was saying things to this effect in the venomdoc forums.

[Gregg M]

I just dont see any other reason for the venom of vipers to be so necrotic....... Especially in Bitis species........ Hey T did that gaboon have no teeth at all or just no fangs???? It would seem to me that it would have a hard time getting prey down without the use of the teeth rows..... I figure it has to be like swinging a baseball bat with no fingers...... Its not impossible but could be a pain in the arse......LOL

[scalawag]

[i] ..... I figure it has to be like swinging a baseball bat with no fingers...... Its not impossible but could be a pain in the arse......LOL [/B]
ROFLMAO

[MsTT]

The Gaboon had no teeth. Mouth like a frog's. Belonged to George Van Horn, St. Cloud Serpentarium.

This animal ate f/t mice normally along with its littermates. No one noticed its deformity until it got large enough to put on the venom line. At that point George was very surprised to find that this normal appearing, normal acting Gaboon viper had no teeth.

I don't think the lack of teeth was a problem in feeding. Even a toothless animal can exert enough traction to get the mouse down, with the same jaw motions. There was no way for it to envenomate anything, obviously, but it did as well as all its normal venom producing littermates and could not be distinguished from them unless you opened its mouth and looked.

[Mustangrde1]

Tanith forgive me if you answered this already. Did this Gabby have fully functional venom glandst oyour knowledge but no way to use the venom IE fangs.

[MsTT]

Short of surgery or necropsy, there was no way of knowing.

The appearance of this animal was physically normal, so it is a reasonable assumption that the venom glands were present. Ask George Van Horn for more details; the animal was his.

[Mustangrde1]

Will do thanks Tanith.