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Mustangrde1
02-29-04, 11:01 AM
Before you purchase a first hot.

When you think about keeping hots what leads you to this? Did you just watch someone on TV go out and grab one? Did you see one in a magazine? Were you just at a zoo or animal exhibit?

If you just watched someone on TV handling one and think you can probably do the same because it did not look very hard, keep in mind there are tricks these showmen use to create safety. Such as chilling the snake in a cooler first or possibly using a venomous {animals that has had its venom glands removed} maybe even injecting the animal with low doses of a sedative. An animal handler on the TV has a film crew and safety crew standing by at all times in case of emergency. You will not have that luxury in your own house working with a venomous reptile. You will not be able to chill the animal before doing simple maintenance of the animal nor will you be able to use a sedative to put it to sleep before working with it. If you keep these Highly Dangerous reptiles you must be able to work with them truly hot.

If you were thumbing through a magazine and found some very beautiful pictures remember this was more then likely done by a professional photographer looking for the right pose the right light the right backdrop and setting. The photographer possibly was a trained handler and knew proper use of handling equipment, so they could manipulate the animal with safety and patients to get the right perfect shot on film.

Were you just at a Zoo. The animals in Zoo collections are babied and pampered beyond belief they have an entire staff of highly trained biologist, scientist, dietitians and handlers working with them daily to be certain all their needs are met.

All the above are persons who have training to some degree with venomous reptiles and understand the risk in working with them and take some degree of precautions before handling/working with these animals. Understanding the animal and its reaction in a circumstance is very important in any species you work with. More so however when dealing with any species that has the potential to disfigure you or worse kill you. Face it a corn snake or ball python is not likely to kill you or force surgeons to open you up to relieve swelling from a bite causing you to have a permanent disfiguring scar or a bite that goes necrotic and eats away part of your flesh. Yes, this can and if the right species bites you will happen.

All that said before you even get a hot you should invest in a quality secure cage for the animal something that can be locked and is escape proof. Glass aquariums with screen tops can be modified yes but have very obvious dangers large fangs can make it through the screen and give you a very nasty surprise. How will you safely open the lid? what precautions need you take to find the animals location? Plastic tubs are good but a misplaced finger under the lid will get you bit as well. Some of these are not very see through so how will you find the animal before opening? commercial plastic cages with sliding glass or lift up glass are preferred for your safety but again they have draw backs such as lips usually above the slider where snakes can hide and surprise you. If you have a very elaborate set up how will you verify exactly where the animal is hiding? These are all things you need to take in to consideration when thinking about caging and the species you will keep. Snakes love to hide and you need to be able to find them and probing around with your hand is probably not the best idea.

Watering is part of daily maintenance and you need to think about how you can do it safely. Using an oil funnel is great to keep you a safe distance but how do you get the bowl out for cleaning? Feeding is another issue where you may possibly come in to contact with Mr. Fangs. Will you feed live or prekilled? Live has the potential to harm or kill your animal if left in and the animal doesn't feed. A large rat can kill or wound a snake. Prekilled is great to prevent that but if the animal doesn't feed then you need to remove the prey or if it regurges. How will you safely remove it?

Some species when small need to be fed by using long hemostats. Do you have the patience to sit there and tease feed the animal till it eats? Do you have the stomach to brain a pinkie to get the animal to feed? Even in the best captive born animals this may need to be done. Import animals are another all together different monster. Imports can come in severely dehydrated and loaded with parasites. How will you clean these animals up? Do you have the medical knowledge to do it? do you know what drugs can be safely used to treat them? If not do you know of a vet that will take a hot under his care? Can you overcome the stress they have already been put under and get them to even feed? Do you have a source for natural types of prey remember not all feed on rodents.

Cage cleaning is always a fun time. How do you plan to get in the cage and clean it safely? Reptiles do defecate and it needs to be cleaned up and if you ever seen a cobra tank its a full cage cleaning and the animal needs to come out. How will you remove the animal? where will you put it? How will you secure it after its removed? and how will you get it back in after the cage is clean?

OK say your heart is set on getting one ask yourself all this and be honest with yourself {Can You Give It ALL Its Needs} if the answer is NO do not get it. When you take on the responsibility of having an animal YOU are responsible for doing everything in your power to insure its health and well being while in your care. Do you honestly have the knowledge and comfort level within yourself to work with these animals safely? Are you getting a venomous to show off to friends and family or tell your friends and family I have a Cobras or Mamba or Rattler etc. If so then do not get one SHOWING OFF gets you dead or others.

For your first hot you need to take in to consideration the availability of antivenom! If your in California for example what's the odds of them having antivenom for a species not native to that area? Keep an animal you know is native to your area at least if you get bit you have a piece of mind that you can be treated properly. Do you know what hospital has AV. and have you talked to the doctors or staff to find out if they know how to treat the bite? Do you have a protocol for a bite? what numbers do you have for contacts in the event of a bite? If your hospital does not carry AV. where are they and you going to get it?

Now you have been given a few question to answer. If you decide to proceed you must take financial needs in to the equation now. Cage cost $50.00 to $600.00 substrate cost $3.00 to $20.00 water bowl cost $1.00 to $20.00 Lighting $15.00 to $50.00 food cost per year $65.00 to $208.00 that figure is for 1 small mouse at $1.25 to a large rat at $4.00 a week keep in mind its in my opinion a very low number Snake $35.00 to $2000.00. Those are all minimal cost numbers I didn't not factor in even for Hooks, Tongs, Tubes, Hemostats, electric bill or water bill. Some state require permits so add on that cost. The food bill reminds me if you have snakes with very high metabolism you better triple that cost.

The best advise is not to buy a venomous on impulse or because you want to show off. Do yourself a favor find an experience hot keeper in your area and get trained to handle the species you wish to own. Learn proper safety tool usage. Take the time to research the animals natural habitat and climatic conditions it lives in. Be prepared to provide the animal with to the best of your ability everything it needs to live a full and stress free life in captivity.

There are a lot of question above to think hard and long venomous reptiles should never be taken lightly and I am not going to give the answers these are things every person who reads this and is thinking about getting in to hots needs to research and answer themselves. Maybe in doing so it will dissuade some and make some better and more prepared for that first hot.

m1k3_88
02-29-04, 11:13 AM
Amazing post! makes you think long and hard about owning a venomous.

Bartman
02-29-04, 11:15 AM
Amazing post, makes me think about that other thread i started :)

Thanks for the read!

Mustangrde1
02-29-04, 01:52 PM
Hey it was your other post that got me to thinking. you learn or thing about something new everyday in the hobby and that is one of its greatest joys.

Matt
02-29-04, 02:55 PM
very thorough post scott, nice work man!
makes ya think!

Big_V
02-29-04, 03:02 PM
I really enjoyed reading that post. One day id like to own a hot but for now ill just stick with boids. Even though ive never been bit by a snake yet with 3 years experience a HOT is a whole different story. I dont mind blood or stiches but the whole destruction of tissue and such that can happen are a real turnoff. And since I live in Ontario keeping one may not exactly be legal and capable.
Great Post
Cheers, Ryan

Mustangrde1
03-01-04, 06:59 AM
I still think anyone wanting to keep a hot needs to see a few bite aftermath pictures it is truly eye opening as to what can happen. Also if anyone knows of a site that has a typical finacial cost of a bite it would be wourth seeing, its not only damaging to a persons appearance but also their check book. The old saying { It not if but when you will get bit}

C.m.pyrrhus
03-01-04, 05:54 PM
When they bite, they bite fast, with seemingly deadly accuracy. For the most part, and this of which is why Mr Scott works hard to get the point across. Venomous are a very very serious thing to give time to think about. Do not be macho, or cool or to be in the In Crowd with fellow herpers. Give it a ton of thought and serious debating on your part to ensure you seriously know what you are taking in. This aint no corn snake or nippy Gophersnake your about to keep, but an animal that can kill or seriously mame you for life without getting any of that back......

urd
03-01-04, 06:09 PM
if anyone wants to see the aftermath of a bite, cut and paste this to your search bar:

http://www.embbs.com/img/i0000011.jpg

i would have just posted it here but somepeople might not find it appropriate(its a bit gory you see) so check it out before you consider hots.....:medblackf

Mustangrde1
03-01-04, 07:10 PM
URD , Viper bite ?

TheRedDragon
03-01-04, 09:21 PM
Very good post as always Scott!

jay76
03-02-04, 11:16 AM
Very thought provoking. Kudos dude

Gregg M
03-02-04, 11:27 AM
That looks like a timber bite to me....... That is without a doubt a crotalid bite....... Another thing is you non hot keeper need to remember is that there is no rule that says you need to get into hots after years of experiance with non hots........ I respect non hot keepers as much as I respect hot keepers........ Most of the herp people I know are non hot keepers and will never dream of keeping venomous snakes....... It is not for everyone and for a good reason......... It does not make you any less respected or any less knowledgable if you never keep a venomous snake in your collection........ But some people on other forums think they are better than everyone else.......

Mustangrde1
03-02-04, 06:19 PM
Its a bad bite whatever it is and im still curios to what it is.

cobraman
03-02-04, 08:01 PM
"I still think anyone wanting to keep a hot needs to see a few bite aftermath pictures it is truly eye opening as to what can happen. "

Ok Scot, You asked for it..... enjoy your dinner :)

cobraman
03-02-04, 08:03 PM
2

cobraman
03-02-04, 08:04 PM
3

cobraman
03-02-04, 08:05 PM
4

Mustangrde1
03-02-04, 08:08 PM
more more we want more,,, and hey that finger looks familiar

Cruciform
03-02-04, 08:24 PM
Necrosis can still occur from a rattler bite even if you receive antivenom right?

cobraman
03-02-04, 08:26 PM
Yes, but the faster the antivenin is started, the faster it will work and reduce the chances. The location of the bite plays a big part in it also.

BWSmith
03-03-04, 11:11 AM
Marking advancing edema. woo hoo. I love to see people who actually USE protocol.

drewlowe
03-03-04, 11:33 AM
ewww, That HAD to be Painfull!!!! I couldn't even imagine going through something like that.

Personally i would never imagine keeping a "hot" and i never will, But much respect goes to you keepers that do it and stress saftey issues, also for all the informative posts you guys make.

Mustangrde1
03-03-04, 11:39 AM
Ray I know you have a few more hanging around if your going to gross people out go all the way...

UpscaleBoas
03-03-04, 01:00 PM
nice to see people talk like this...

MsTT
03-04-04, 03:19 PM
Sedatives definitely have their place in venomous reptile medicine, not just for the safety of the handler but for the safety and comfort of the snake patient.

I rarely sedate most elapids for simple and nonpainful procedures, but many of the thin-necked, fragile-boned terrestrial vipers are at fairly high risk of self-injury when they struggle. For some procedures they can be tubed, immobilized under foam padding or you can "ride with them" to some extent as they move, but other procedures especially painful or invasive ones should really be done under a sedative as well as with pain relief medication.

Injectable Diazepam is the best and safest snake sedative I have worked with. It seems to produce minimal cardiovascular and respiratory depression even in fairly debilitated animals. At 0.1 to 0.3 mg/kg, the amount of this drug you would need to obtain from a veterinarian in order to sedate a snake that weighs no more than one or two kilos at most is non abusable by humans. Most vets, even if they will not see your venomous snake in their office, would probably be willing to sell you a syringe with this amount of Diazepam in it so you can medicate and treat your own animal.

Mustangrde1
03-04-04, 04:07 PM
Animal Welfair Act Surgical Law... sorry my converter broke down on this one. but here is the link

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/policy/policy3.pdf

Mustangrde1
04-02-04, 09:59 AM
Just seams to be alot of people asking this lately so what the Bump

psilocybe
04-07-04, 12:37 PM
Great post, hopefully this will open some of the eyes of some people who might be in this hobby "casually". There should never be such a thing as a "casual hot keeper", as this hobby requires a ton of dedication and you have to always be on your toes...Think long and hard if your life is worth keeping these animals. I thought about it, and I decided it was. But I'm still a novice and am not keeping any of the more toxic species. Take the time to learn and you will appreciate it in the long run. It's easy to get impatient, I know I had my moments where i couldn't wait to pin a rattler, but I'm thankful I didn't rush in. I'm sure my fingers and other appendages are as well, as they could be sitting in a jar of alcohol on my mantle had I decided to do things on impulse. Every day could be your last working with these beautiful creatures. You will be bitten, it is only a matter of time. Will you be ready? Do you have the knowledge yourself of what to do when you do get bitten? Do you have the AV? Are the doctors at your hospital aware of the fact you could come in unconscious and dying from a snakebite, and will they know how to treat you? Do you have a DNR order written up (if you don't want to be a vegatable that is)? What about a will? What about if you take a hit and die, where will the snakes go? Do you have someone who will adopt them if something happens to you? Most zoos won't be interested in the commonly kept hots, so don't count on them. You have to ask yourself ALL these questions and about a thousand more I'm not going to bother to list. In the end, YOU are the only one who can truly decide if you are ready or capable of keeping a hot. Be sure and think things through and make the right decision, because mistakes are unforgivable in this hobby.

AP