Pet store

[Wizwise2000]

It's too bad I don't have any money. I would've bought one of these poor boa's.

I walk in to this pet store today in London, Ontario, and I'm looking through their reptiles. So I see this enclosure and they
have a Kenyan sand boa in the same enclosure (20G) as a Columbian boa (not too sure on this one)? The Columbian was grey and about a foot in length, the Kenyan was about a foot to a foot and a half long.

I've read on here that we shouldn't keep multiple snakes together (unless for mating purposes). I'm most certainly sure I've read that we shouldn't keep different species together.

So that's my pet store horror story.

Cheers
Shane

[zouleous]

Colombian was about a foot? Aren't they born bigger than that?

Z

[Dark_Angel_25]

I believe BCI are bigger than that at birth.. I don't think it is a columbian... maybe it is also a sand boa??

[marisa]

Yes are you sure it wasn't a sand boa/rosy boa? Costal phases are grey.

http://www.werc.usgs.gov/fieldguide/chtr.htm

Although personally, I am unsure how big BCC oc BCI are at birth.
Its too bad how uninformed most pet stores are.
Marisa

[Stav.T]

Darkangel...

I believe BCI are bigger than that at birth..

Yes they can be smaller than 12 inches long . I had litters of central american babies as small as 8 inches and in the opposite i had litters of colombian babies as big as 24 inches. It really depends on individual females. The average is about 12-13 inches.

Hope this helps a bit,
Stav

[Wizwise2000]

I just called the pet store. It's a Central american boa and he said it's about 2 and a half feet long. So my guess is that the sand boa is a bit longer.

Cheers
Shane

[WRX]

Way back when, I kept 2 Columbian Rainbows, BCC, a small Retic and a Red Rat all in the same cage. All were happy and ate at every feeding.

Of course I had to police the Burm, as he would wolf down his rat and go after every other! :mad:

I have also kept a Cantil, Pygmy and Canebrake babies in the same tank....had no issues other than feeding time, I needed to watch them.:cool:


BT

[marisa]

How were you keeping a red rat with a retic and columbian boas when all have different tempurature and humidity requirements? Or did you just throw those out the window?

Marisa

[Bartman]

Thats a lot of different species to be mixing..i hope your not doing that anymore!

[Darren179]

sigh... WRX I dont think that was a good idea.

[WRX]

OK, this was WAY before anyone was captive breeding. We are talking 1977. A Ball Python was an exotic, and a Retic was unheard of. I bought the constrictors from a place in Florida, they were all imports. The Red Rat I caught in FL.

All these snakes did VERY well with a nice warm < heating pad > spot and ambient light bulb heat. I know, LAME! but, back then, it was the way. Keep in mind that 20 years ago, the herp hobbie was WAY smaller than it is now.

I digress, but trust me, a nice warm enclosure will support a lot of different species.....not for breeding for sure, but they will thrive.

and don't try to school me!!! :w

Bill T

[marisa]

No on is trying to "school" you but thats a nice arrogant attitude you have. It's to bad because I was actually curious why you would even attempt this. Not trying to "school" you. Although I myself hope to never stop being "schooled"

I understand things being done differently 30 years ago, but that still doesn't explain why snakes from different continents would be housed together. Obviously, as you have basically said, ignorance in general for snakes but IMHO it seems common sense. Normally, when something is new, and unknown you would think keeping it in solitary conditions would be the first thought.

In any case I do not personally feel voicing the opinion that a heating pad alone will make something thrive is the best thing to do on a forum where newbies and people who are trying to learn come for advice. Encouraging half assed keeping is not something I would participate in. But to each their own. Thanks for your explanation.

Marisa

[WRX]

Ah, here we go.

Notice the little icon next to "School me"


Ok, Sunshine, tell me about keeping snakes! As far as the "different continents" BS, its temp and humidity. I was was lucky the morphs I kept together were not humidity demanding.

Marisa, I have been to Crutchfields in FL and seen Amazon Tree Boas in the same enclosure as Borneo Bloods, all happy. Maybe not breeding, but happy and healthy.

I take offence to your "Half Assed" comment. If you wish, I can post pics of some pretty healthy Anacondas and Guyana Rainbows I bred from the Reptile Breeding Foundation, before you were born o>

Bill T

[tHeGiNo]

News flash bud, just because they are living it doesn't mean they are in good health. Heh.

[Oliverian]

Way back when, I kept 2 Columbian Rainbows, BCC, a small Retic and a Red Rat all in the same cage. All were happy and ate at every feeding.

Of course I had to police the Burm, as he would wolf down his rat and go after every other!

I have also kept a Cantil, Pygmy and Canebrake babies in the same tank....had no issues other than feeding time, I needed to watch them

Hmmm.... Just wondering what the point is in stating this other than to start an argument? (If there was another point?) Is it to say that different species can be kept together without incident?

-TammyR

[WRX]

Sorry, but I don't see how my original post would want make us "argue". Read it. Thats what I meant.

I think that the captive breeding that has happened in the last 10 - 15 years is fantastic, with all the care sheets and the Web for information. But, I still say, because I have done it many times, that keeping species with real non - specific needs is fine.

News flash bud, just because they are living it doesn't mean they are in good health. Heh.

See, now another Ditmars trying to educate. I know a healthy snake from a unhealthy snake.

I am sorry I even posted to this thread. I was talking from my personal experience, and getting flamed is BS.

KTHNX

[SerpentLust]

Well, that was uncalled for. Just because people keep different species together and they sometimes prosper, it does not mean it's the right way to keep your captive snake.

Yes, a heating pad can be used, but that's adequate at best. Shouldn't one, who loves their animals, want to give them the best care? Alot of species can get by with as you said, "real non-specific needs", but again, it is our job and responsibilty as snake keepers to not only take into account specifications but educate others to do the same.

I have a Spotted Python, trust me, I know about non-specific needs, that doesn't mean that tomorrow I'll purchase a Ball Python and keep it in the same enclosure, I wouldn't even buy an Anthill Python and put it in the same enclosure.

When people say that they're keeping all these different species together two things flash in my mind. One is that they're either very lazy and the other is that they're uncaring. Not to throw stones at you personally WRX

Also I'm not accustomed to having my posts torn into pieces and quoted to have comebacks made and I personally don't feel like any of these people should have been given the "I'm older and wiser" attitude. Although I do not know TheGino very well, what he said is correct and Marisa is a very well educated woman in the matter of herps and most people on the site will probably agree with what she said in this post, I certainly do.

Regardless of what was done 30 years ago, everyone is more educated now in the way of herp keeping and what was done then and what is done now are two different things. It does not do good to be telling people that it's perfectly fine to keep different species together when any amount of actual research can prove otherwise. The main point of this website is to educate, and I'm worried that with what you have said, a novice will come along and put a King and a Corn together, since they both have "non-specific needs", we don't need a novice ending up with a Kingsnake full of Corn. And we certainly don't need to be told that practicing the "art" of keeping different species together is fine, because it isn't. It's a very big risk to the snakes and, I for one, know it's a risk I'm not willing to take to jeopordize the health and well being for my herps, I have more love and respect for them than that.

Jenn

[WRX]

Well, that was uncalled for. Just because people keep different species together and they sometimes prosper, it does not mean it's the right way to keep your captive snake.

never said it was "the right way"

Also I'm not accustomed to having my posts torn into pieces and quoted to have comebacks made and I personally don't feel like any of these people should have been given the "I'm older and wiser" attitude.

Maybe I came off like that, but as a geezer, it is annoying to get brow beat for posting personel experience.

It does not do good to be telling people that it's perfectly fine to keep different species together when any amount of actual research can prove otherwise

Link me to such research, other than Kingsnakes / Indigos or other snake eating snakes.

novice will come along and put a King and a Corn together
Well, if one would put a King with any other snake should read a book first, but well challenged. True

for one, know it's a risk I'm not willing to take to jeopordize the health and well being for my herps, I have more love and respect for them than that

Good! The risks escape me though. As long as the animals are healthy, there are none. Introducing a new member should not be done without a quarentine <sp?> period, but I still think if the person does not have the funds for multiple cages, it is fine to house different species in the same enclosure.

My Guyana Rainbows bred and the female had 12 healthy babies in a multi species cage. It may not be the best for breeding, but it worked for me.

BT

[SerpentLust]

With some garter snake species, there is a risk of cannibalism, and they should be housedindividually. This is especially true of the western terrestrial garter snake (Thamnophis ele-gans), the most commonly kept subspecies of which are the wandering garter snake (T. e.vagrans) and the coast garter snake (T. e. terrestris). There have been many reports of wan-dering garter snakes that ate their cagemates. While some have kept this species collectivelywith no trouble at all, play it safe and keep no more than one per cage. Cannibalism has alsobeen reported in checkered garter snakes (Thamnophis marcianus) and occasionally withcommon garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis).
From: http://www.mcwetboy.com/gartercare/gartercare.pdf

Black-headed Pythons food consists of small mammals, birds and an unusually high proportion of reptiles and frogs. This includes highly venomous species such as the Desert Death Adder (Acanthophis pyrrhus) which occurs throughout much of the Black-headed Python's range. This species is highly prone to cannibalism both in the wild and in captivity.
From: http://www.smuggled.com/auspyt1.htm

A word of warning there is known cases of cannibalism in this species.
From: http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/44

They can be ophiophagous and there have been reported instances of cannibalism in this species
From: http://coloherp.org/cb-news/Vol-28/cbn-0109/BismarckPython.html

Or even from a different forum:
Ball pythons are also known to be cannibalistic - and most snakes being opportunistic feeders, just "making sure they're fed lots" is not an effective method of making sure cannibalism doesn't happen.
From: http://www.tarantulas.us/forums/showthread/t-49.html

Ball pythons are powerful constrictors that are capable of easily overpowering the small mammals that comprise their base diet. They may also eat some lizards, ground-dwelling birds; incidences of cannibalism have been reported.
From: http://petplace.netscape.com/Articles/artShow.asp?artID=1086

Anyways, I think you get my point, but I can keep grabbing more sites I have on hand if you wish.

And as I said, I am not accustomed to having my posts torn apart and rebuttled to. I find it kind of juvenile, which is contradicting the fact that you did pull the "older and wiser" attitude on the others. You didn't do it on me as I try not to be as strong spoken as Marisa when it comes to stating my opinions or facts. You asked for some research, I found these sites, and as I cannot show you the books and documentaries I have here, those will have to do.

Furthermore, everyone is here to learn and share. It does not do well to twist my words around, I did not claim that you said it's the right way, you moreso implied that it's the right way or that there's nothing wrong with it.

Good for you that you kept them with seemingly no problems, that doesnt mean everyone will, and to reduce that risk, it's advisable to educate people on the proper husbandry requirements of each and every herp kept, whether it's a corn or an indigo, rainbow or kingsnake.

Jenn

[JDouglas]

Excellent post Jenn! Its hard to argue with a post like that. I was actually expecting Favelle to show up here and post something witty but he must be MIA.

I have seen veteran herpers selling snakes at herp shows and many have less knowledge then the 12 yr old kid buying the corn snake from them. I get tired of hearing that people have kept herps for 30 years and blah blah blah... hatched eggs when you were a sparkle in your daddy's eye blah blah blah. Who cares! When you give advice like you did in this thread we only think you've been doing it WRONG the entire time. I am sure this is not the case but perception is reality for most people.

[marisa]

"I think that the captive breeding that has happened in the last 10 - 15 years is fantastic, with all the care sheets and the Web for information. But, I still say, because I have done it many times, that keeping species with real non - specific needs is fine."

But *Why* though? And why tell someone who might have NO reptile experience, or very little that this is successful? I just don't see the point in it. At all.

What reasoning do you have behind this? There is not ONE beneficial reason to the snake for it, so what coupld possibly be the reason? I mean do what you want. But just doing things for the sake of doing things because "you can" seems a little half hearted to me.

Marisa

[SerpentLust]

Haha thank you JDouglas, I do try....sometimes ;) lol

Jenn

[WRX]

I admit the snake eating snakes should obviously be kept apart.
And that arguement is weak. It's like saying don't drive on the left hand side of the road.....................

But, here is a scenario I am talking about, and the reason I do not think keeping multi speceies with similar needs is wrong. What if someone on limited funds has a corn snake, and he happens to get a kiler deal on a grey rat, but does not have the room / funds to set up a new enclosure. Should he / she pass up the opportunity to keep another species? I say NO.
Once again, if you are breeding any species, of course you need to separate males and females, cycle heat and light, etc., but guess what! Not everyone keeps snakes for breeding!!

Wow........

So if I understand your point, you all would never keep a Retic, BCC, and a Burmese in the same cage, as long as the size is right?


BT

[Cruciform]

I'm just curious if anyone here has an aquarium, and if they're keeping different species of fish in the same tank.

[Siretsap]

Yes I kept different species of fish in my tank and my neighbor does, as well as my sister.?

But why this question?

[marisa]

Actually most hobbyist who are really INTO it normally keep species tanks that house animals from near to or the same location. This is because many fish require certain PH and water qaulity depending on their native location. Most fish keepers have no clue how to properly care for fish and while the fish "survive" they never display many behaviours or reach their full potential.

Many people keep multi-species fish tanks, and in fact in SOME cases those fish are not being treated properly, or are living in water conditions not natural too them. Would I put a Oscar and some goldfish together? No. That would be stupid. Oscars enjoy a warmer tank while Goldies like it cool. Aside from the Oscar eating the Goldfish, sure they could probably adapt to the water conditions, but WHY force them too? A little selfish IMHO with snakes or fish. I see NO point in doing it.

"But, here is a scenario I am talking about, and the reason I do not think keeping multi speceies with similar needs is wrong. What if someone on limited funds has a corn snake, and he happens to get a kiler deal on a grey rat, but does not have the room / funds to set up a new enclosure. Should he / she pass up the opportunity to keep another species? I say NO.
"

I say YES. If you are so out of funds you cannot afford 50 bucks for a used tank with heating pad, what right do you have owning ANY animal? Sorry but thats the way I feel. You don't have the cash doesn't mean you scramble together and make the animal live in conditions its not native too. That's INSANE irresponsible, and again selfish IMHO. You don't think its wrong if you cannot afford two cages but want to snakes? EVERYTHING is wrong about that statement! This is why we have 15 year old kids, and selfish adults giving up snakes and reptiles to shelters every year, or coming here with photos of snakes in such bad condition its unbelieveable. Because they "do what the want" in regards to husbandry, which is obviously what you are suggesting people do.

"but guess what! Not everyone keeps snakes for breeding!!
"

Still no reason FOR keeping them together. When housing together you run risks. That's a given. We all agree on that. So whats beneficial to the snakes to house together? If its beneficial to you, and you are interested in YOUR needs, then why even keep animals?

And no I would never ever keep a BCC with a Retic. Why would I? To save money? LOL. I just wouldn't get another damn snake. Sorry I am not a selfish person and my snakes will never be put together in one cage like a hillbillly roadshow. That's how I see it. Being cheap. And the animals are the ones who may pay a price if something goes wrong.....not the keeper.


Marisa

[M_surinamensis]

Couple things...

First and foremost, the real danger in housing multiple species together doesn't come from one of them deciding to make a snack out of another (Although it is legitimate as well), it's the cross contamination of gut fauna and an inability to identify and replicate overlaping environmental ranges.

Basically... every animal harbors some forms of microscopic life, many of which are completely harmless to species which have evolved in an environment along with their naturally occuring gut fauna... The immune systems of individual animals (even on a non-evolutionary level) grow and adapt to the bacteria which the individual animal come into contact with... When a species or individual is exposed to the microorganisms of another animal, it doesn't always have the same level of resistance and can suffer pretty drastically.

Add in the fact that a herp being kept outside of it's normal (or ideal) environmental ranges is automatically immunocompromised and it becomes a fairly nasty situation all around.

This doesn't mean that animal's can't stay alive together... or even that multiple species displays can't be set up by someone willing to quaranteen for an extended period and STILL take something of a risk... Thing is though, in order to maintain multiple species in the same enclosure in any manner which could be called healthy or safe, the keeper needs to be well educated.

Frankly, antecdotal or not, keeping the species which were listed earlier in a single enclosure is just ignorant. Ignorance bordering on stupidity, "I didn't know any better" can only make up for so much before it becomes a kind of deep set ingrained refusal to learn.

As to the remarks that any given individual has been doing this longer than any other... Unless you know *exactly* who you are talking to, it's a fairly risky statement to make. There is always someone who has been doing it longer (and frequently better) who will come along and smack you right off your self righteous throne of craptacular experience (Unless you happen to be Bill Haast, the only people who were doing it before him have all, unfortunately, died). Experience and education generally move at a fairly even pace... But experience is qualitative in addition to being quantitative. Doing something in a way which can be clearly evidenced to be wrong for fifty years tends to detract from credibility rather than enhance it.

Aquarium keping isn't the same as herp keeping, although I suspect the poster drawing a parallel knew that already... Incidentally, I keep nice, system specific aquariums and don't mix river systems or lakes, much less continents.

Most people who enter into the industry (or hobby or science or any amalgamation thereof) started out by doing something that they never should have... Most people also have the brains to realize that they may have screwed up in the past, but it's no reason to encourage others to do so in the future. Experiences have value, even negative ones... but they must be related in a tone which leads the reader to understand that the action is not one to be copied. Glorifying idiocy never really helped anybody.

[marisa]

Bottom line:

I will NEVER EVER keep two snakes together ESPECIALLY to the tune of a retic with a ratsnake in the same cage. It's cheap, embarassing, irresponsible and wrong to force solitary creatures to not only share a cage, but with an animal that's from another contienent not to mention an animal with different habits and needs.

Another issue, which I am unfortunatly unfamiliar with is snakes passing things to one another which the other has no natural defenses for. Again I am totally uneducated in this area, but its been gone into GREAT detail on this forum before and the REAL risks this poses.

Might as well end this now. You can keep your retics with your corns and I simply will NOT. Nothing will change my opinion on that. And apparently, 90% + of snake owners and big breeders agree with this because of the OBIVOUS problems with it.

Marisa

[Siretsap]

Yes marisa, that I do know, but still some different species will have the same needs in ph and even within a same species of fish some can live in different water resources with a huge variation of ph...

I wouln't go put a pirhana with some gold fish.... but yes you can still keep different fish species together.....

I find the example at extremes as with the oscar and gold fish cause everyone should read up on species before mixing them up together...

some people think they know it all... If you refuse to put different species of snakes or lizards together, then does that also mean you shouln't put more than one species of dandrobats together?.... I always see different kinds of amphibians mixed up together, and I doubt people complain about those.

[M_surinamensis]

There is a big difference between an educated and experienced individual with a trained eye and a solid understanding of the environmental and health needs of a given species deciding to recreate a biotope and someone mashing together three continents because they are too cheap to buy additional enclosures.

[Siretsap]

Yes I know that, but if you always apply those, then what do you do about all the hybrids??? Cornsnake mixes with grey rat snakes or king snakes.... I mean those were animals from different grounds with different gut fauna... And yet many people were amazed by the beauty of the babies. The problem I see with this is if the baby tends to be more like the king parent, then it would prob eat some of it's clutchmates...
Anyhow, I doubt this problem along with the different species housing will ever be resolved.

Too many divergent opinions, some a little far fetched, some realistics, and some that might end up right down the road, but no one will know for a while.

[M_surinamensis]

I generally euthanize hybrids, when legally allowed to do so. They're dangerous animals, all it takes is one person who doesn't realize what they are dealing with that misrepresents some offspring and an entire population is contaminated. Look at what Creamcicle corns did to captive corn populations... Lots of people have animals with some emoryi in them, but have no idea they own hybridized animals.

[JDouglas]

WRX,
So you are saying it is OK to house multiples together if you don't have the space. I think this is poor advice. How do you quarintine a new animal if you don't have space? Just because someone sells you a snake and says it healthy and it looks healthy doesn't mean it is.

[Cruciform]

When I posted the question about the aquarium, I was just seeing (as devil's advocate) if there's anyone who's doing the same thing with fish that they're dead set against doing with snakes.

Anyone that is should stop preaching immediately :)

Not that I think anyone should keep mixed species of snakes in the same cage, it's just that this topic pops up every week and people throw a fit and in the end, nobody changes their opinion.

[MouseKilla]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about here, I'm keeping a retic, a pair of albino cobras, a bottle-nosed dolphin and a bald eagle all in the same dog kennel and they're all doin' great! lol!

[WRX]

"Mashing three continents together"?

Gimme a break. As for Bill Haast's Serpentarium, have you been there? Well I have, and while his venomous snakes on the venom extraction program are kept in racks, his display animals are in "comminity" cages. Rattlesnakes from N and S America in a desert type setup. There are cards @ the front of the enclosure that shows a picture and small desciption of each animal. I thought it kinda cool trying spot then different snakes, but I digress.

George VanHorne of Reptile World in Sanford also houses his snakes and lizards the same way. But, I uess those guys are members of the old fart club too.

Whatever.

BT

[M_surinamensis]

No... those guys are educated, and the exceptions which I noted.

You clearly weren't at the time you took the action and your seeming refusal to admit that it's not safe for the animals to mix the ones you did implies that you still aren't.

[WRX]

No... those guys are educated, and the exceptions which I noted

Actually, they are were not formally educated in Herpetology. Tom Huff also had no post secondary education in science. < r.i.p. >.

Frankly, antecdotal or not, keeping the species which were listed earlier in a single enclosure is just ignorant. Ignorance bordering on stupidity, "I didn't know any better" can only make up for so much before it becomes a kind of deep set ingrained refusal to learn.

Wow, not only are you a scientist, you are also a psychologist. I will admit to having limited education, but I work in a field that is creative, rather than what I perceive you "work" in. "A deep set ingrained refusal to learn"............ok.




keep nice, system specific aquariums and don't mix river systems or lakes, much less continents.

Hahahaha...you are kidding I hope. I was discussing this on the phone today with my Herp "mentor", we had a good laugh.

I admire your commitment to your charges, but , and please take no offence, you are the first Herp Nerd I have encountered!

Another quick note. I bought a RES and a Chinese Softshell a year and a 1/2 ago, and everyone local said "the softshell will remove the RES toes within a week".

Nope, both are robust 6" turtles.

:eek:

BT

[Linds]

Originally posted by WRX
Another quick note. I bought a RES and a Chinese Softshell a year and a 1/2 ago, and everyone local said "the softshell will remove the RES toes within a week".

Nope, both are robust 6" turtles.


Well, I was planning on staying out of this thread, and didn't feel I needed to add to anything, Marisa and M_surinamensis covered pretty well all, but I have to reply to the above statement as I cannot even begin to understand it. Why would you risk putting two animals together, that everyone had cautioned you to be a possible hazard??? There obviously was some risk of that, what made you blatently ignore the warnings???

[WRX]

Yea, and The Boys are fine. I will post some pics / vids of my animals for you all to review shortly.

QUOTE]Well, I was planning on staying out of this thread, and didn't feel I needed to add to anything, Marisa and M_surinamensis covered pretty well all, but I have to reply to the above statement as I cannot even begin to understand it. Why would you risk putting two animals together, that everyone had cautioned you to be a possible hazard??? There obviously was some risk of that, what made you blatently ignore the warnings???[/QUOTE]
I ignore "warnings" from folks I take no stolk in.

[Oliverian]

Jesus. I don't have a lot to say about this, but honestly, how much does a new enclosure cost? You could do a cheap one and stay well under $50 in most cases. (if you try) Again, WHY risk killing one or more different snakes by keeping them in the same enclosure? Even if money is your issue, you lose even one of those snakes and it will probably have cost you more than an extra enclosure. You pay... say $80 for a new snake, and put it in a community enclosure. Let's say it dies (for one of the various reasons), and you're out a snake and $80. Wouldn't it have been much better to just have put it in a seperate enclosure to begin with?

I'm not advocating that it's totally wrong to keep different species together, but obviously there are risks. So why even take them if you can avoid them in the first place? Risking an animal's life to save a couple bucks? Come on, man. Why? That's all i'm asking.

-TammyR

[marisa]

"I ignore "warnings" from folks I take no stolk in."

Well trust me, you're the only one here in this thread I would ignore warnings from. You basically have thrown everyones very VALID points away and not even explained how you avoid the risks people have brought up, including ones brought up by Seamus Haley who posted an EXCELLENT reply in this thread. I guess we are all crazy!

"I always see different kinds of amphibians mixed up together, and I doubt people complain about those."

There is a HUGE difference here! Dart frogs don't come from "all over" there are not North American dart frogs living with African ones! I also rarely see people who know their stuff and have built success breeding programs with amphibians housing many species together. And yes, I would most certaintly would complain unless that person knew each inhabitant beforehand and carefully monitered each ones behaviour. Telling a newbie or possibly someone with little experience that you house a retic, a rat and a boa together and the backing it up with NO explanation is totally irresponsible.

And yet after all this thread, not ONE person has given ONE reason thats benefical to the snakes to house together. We can all see there are risks in housing together, and zero of those risks when not housing together. There are not benefits. So gee let me think which should I pick? Risks + no benefits? Or no risks and benefits? Real hard call...uh huh.

Marisa

[Cruciform]

Actually you're quite wrong about the Dart frogs Marisa. They come from many different tropical climes in both the eastern and western hemispheres. Some live in hot locations close to sea level while others live up in cooler areas on the mountains above the jungle.

I'm not arguing with the rest of your points, just that if you're going to use Dart Frogs as an example it might help to be more informed in their husbandry as well.

[marisa]

Well there you go, learn something new everyday. Thanks for the little lesson. It still doesn't change my opinion that most all people who have built successful breeding programs and long term collections with amphibians don't house a whack 'o species together.

Why? It's pointless.

Marisa

[Linds]

Originally posted by marisa
So gee let me think which should I pick? Risks + no benefits? Or no risks and benefits? Real hard call...uh huh.


That's the most important point in all the pages of this thread.

[WRX]

not ONE person has given ONE reason thats benefical to the snakes to house together

No one said there was. I grow weary of this thread. Started good, and ends with a couple of keyboard giants dropping huge knowledge on the masses.

Cute.

You all keep doing what you'r doing, I am sure it is the only way. :rolleyes:

Sleep tight.

BT

[meow_mix450]

there are many man many many threads about pet stores, maybe it should ahve its owm little section in the site about pet stores, we all hate them, some are good some are bad, but you really cant do much, i just go to my local pet store to get criekt, if i was to put it down where else could i get them, im not gonna drive 30 mins, but my point is that pet stores are bad, a lot are WC and they only want money

Meow

[marisa]

"No one said there was. I grow weary of this thread. Started good, and ends with a couple of keyboard giants dropping huge knowledge on the masses."

Yeah normally people who cannot back up anything they practice on living animals take something like that as an out instead of explaning their methods and how they avoid risks to maybe share this knowledge with the rest of us.

You know, you type as though I said I think its wrong for ANYONE to do it. When I clearly said in the right conditions with the right keeper, i can see it possibly being successful. I only disagree with YOUR personal position so don't turn this into "I am sure its the only way"

Its not keeping of species together by people who have researched it, its people like you putting a boa with a retic and a red rat that I don't agree with. People like you who claim to know a good way of doing things yet cannot explain how they avoid the very clear risks, or explain why they made this choice other than "they ate" That's what I don't agree with.

You "grow weary" well I grow weary of adopting peoples pets who have been forced to live together, live in sick conditions, being underfed because someone did something for one simple reason....they could. That's what makes me grow weary. You giving out advice, then running away from straight questions is breeding more bad keepers. THAT is tiresome.

I don't grow weary of debate, rational debate, which you had no side in because you choose to do nothing but belittle and make smart remarks. But in any case, this thread won't obviously do any good at this point so I am out.

Marisa

[WRX]

You "grow weary" well I grow weary of adopting peoples pets who have been forced to live together, live in sick conditions, being underfed because someone did something for one simple reason....they could

You know what Marisa, you are a great person to adopt neglected animals. But for you to include me, as was implied, in your last post makes me angry. My snakes are 150% loved, and well cared for. For you to include me with the true abusers is a personal attack, and to that, I say phuk you!

Sorry, but I will debate, but telling me I am like a local pet shop with a half dead Boa slowly dieing in a crap filled cage is not going to get by.

BT

[BoidKeeper]

this thread won't obviously do any good at this point so I am out.
Agreed. Thread closed.
Trevor