best first venomous snake

[Bartman]

Just so you dont think im getting one tomorrow or something, im just asking what you guys think would be the best venomous snake to get...in no means am i even thinking of getting one in even the next 5 years, just wanted to know :) Are sidewinders not good because in the future id love to own one of these or an eyelash viper...are these bad starters?

[SCReptiles]

My opinion is the best first venomous varies with where you live. For you I would recommend a copperhead. They are usually of good temperament and if an accident happened, CroFab (North American pit viper anti-venom) would be pretty easy to get. That would not be the case for someone living in say South Africa. For them CroFab would be hard to get, thus making the keeping of copperheads more risky. I would shy away from the eyelash viper till I had plenty of experience. AV for that species will be harder to come by. Training for 5 years is probably an overkill, if you want to get into hots, find someone to train with and you will be ready for a copperhead in a much more reasonable amount of time.

[m1k3_88]

How are venemous permits obtained in Canada? Only 15, so not looking into gettin them anytime soon, just askin

[Bartman]

thanks for the advice..i meant that i wouldnt even start planning to get one in the next 5 years..as mike, im only 16 so bascially until i move out i would never be able to own one...parents would neever let me, but i just wanted to start looking i guess...how would i get someone to train me, would i just have to meet people in the herp world?

[SCReptiles]

Yeah, that is really about the only way I know. And its not always easy finding the hot keepers. A lot of them keep what they do underground. This site is good resource, keep using it. Also sigh up at www.VenomousReptiles.org You can find someone there.

[m1k3_88]

Thanks SCReptiles. Bartman, if u do find some1 willing to train could u let me know?

[kao1001]

venomous permits aren't obtainable in canada.

[Stockwell]

Bart, first you better move out of Toronto..I mean way out..
There are very few municipalities where hots can be kept legally

[Bartman]

I think by the time i want to own a hot, ill already be in australlia :D

[JD@reptiles]

I would start with somthing rear fanged first. work with those for years and years. that way if you do get bit you dont loose a finger, hand, arm or your life... but the first REAL hot i would just listen to these guys ^^^.

[Matt]

eyelash vipers are not good starters at all, it really takes alot of practice to hook them properly, they tend to steal the hook away from you all the time!

sidewinders....disposition wise they are decent, but typically have more problems than other species in captivity....plus they are usually not the greatest on hook either.

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

So whats the deal with getting permits for hots in Canada?

[One More Herper]

As long as the reptile is Not protected by CITES, you do not need a permit to obtain a venomous reptile. The only problem is encountered through individual municipal by-laws. The best bet for those is to call your local city hall and ask

-Ben

[m1k3_88]

What exactly is or are CITIES??

[Dozer]

Bartman,

You cant get anyone to train you to handle snakes. You have to learn to know the snake and its abilities. Starting off with rear fangs at first is a good idea like JD stated, minus the "if you get bit part". At times, it cant be prevented, but most of the times a bite may be avoided. Different snakes have different temperments however...

Anyways, listen into what SC has to say, hes pro :)

Mike

[Mustangrde1]

The best first venomous is the one your most comfortable with.I.E. trained with a experiance keeper that has the species your wishing to keep and with security and safty always in mind. With that said certain species are never good first hots to have. As a first something with a very readily available AV is always a good idea.

I would say arboreals and elapids and rattlers are not the best choices to make. Copperheads, rearfanged animals excluding boomers are not a bad idea mangroves are usually very pretty and highly aggresive Asian vines are another nice animal. still coems down to what you personaly like and are comfortable with and have had experiance with.

[monitor boy]

hey bartman i would recomment getting a snake that is horrible for handling like tiger rat snake and try taking care of that for 3 years with out getting bit once then you know u have mastered the skills of the hook and then you would feel more comfortable with a hot

[Bartman]

Good point i guess, but if i got a crazy hot that isnt for beginner im not ever planning on handling it at all, even with a stick...I would rather not even take it out of the enclosure so it would still be hard to get a like a ratler or something?

Would it ever be nessessary that i need to take it out or would i be able to use poles and sticks to do whatever i needed to do in the tank...thanks for all the replies

[Matt]

you have to be prepared to deal with the snake....period, you cant just hope it will never need anything which requires you to take it out

of course with hots, the ideal situation is to not deal with the snake, and observe from a distance, great!

.......but, trust me, thats NOT how its going to work, you will eventual come across a situation when hooking it (they arent called sticks, they are called hooks) out of the cage and dealing with it will be necessary....possibly even needing to pin the snake

yes, you will need to take it out, or couse you should use tools to do this, but you cannot have a snake and get by with never needing to take it out.

[crazyboy]

What are good rearfanged snakes..do hognoses count?..and what type of hook would you guys use for these?

[Mustangrde1]

I think the point is not what is a good rear fang but being honest with ones self as to you abilities. Either you know your ready for a hot or your not. If someone was to get a less offensive rearfang and work with it for a time its doing nothing but giving them a false and possibly fatal since of security with hots.

Just because you can handlle a rear fang does not train you to be able to handle a viper and working with a viper does not train you to work with an elapid. Even withen the same species I have seen very docile to { hello im going to kill you} attitudes. You have to be ready for anything at anytime with a venomous. There is no way you can keep them without someday needing to remove the animal from the cage , be it from it growing out of the cage to soaking to medical care to all out cage cleaning. You will have to remove it sometime. Find the experianced keeper and get trained in the species you wish to work with is the best and safest advise.

[Bartman]

I agree, your right that im forsure gonna need to take it out some time or another

One more question, i was watching croc hunter and he found this puff ader in africa...she seemed very docile, of course striked once or twice (he also explained there reallly fast) but it looked like that would be an easy one to handle after some training. What do you think about that type of snake?

[ChokeOnSmoke]

I think puff adders are one of the fastest striking snakes so I wouldn't imagine it would be a good hot to begin with. I could be totally wrong.

[crazyboy]

i wasn't going to run out and get one. im not sure im ever going to get one. i was just wondering what you guys would recommend. i am only 13 so i am kind of like the above. i agree about it giving you a false sense of security but i was just wondering.

[Mustangrde1]

NEVER WATCHING IRWIN THE HORRIBLE is a first step to staying alive. Puffs are extremely fast and very deadly. Keep in mind the one you saw steve handling was probably chilled in a cooler for sometime before he handled it.

[Bartman]

Good point...thanks!

[Mustangrde1]

I didn't want to come off as a hard ***. I just would hate to see people think what he does is safe or acceptable. The TV personalities and that's what they are for the most part are showmen. They are there to get high ratings and promote their own shows just some of them do stupid dangerous things to give the audience a greater thrill so we as the viewing public will keep coming back to watch them.

That being said the shows do offer some value however if you ignore the idiot free handling a probably well chilled animal and pay attention to the habitat and surroundings you have the ability to learn where the animals you wish to work with and own come from. Paying attention to habitat and climatic conditions will give you great insight as to what we as keepers should strive for in our own collections.

As you watch these shows right down what you see as far as the country they were found in the type of habitat {scrub, forest, swamp, rain forest, desert, etc., etc.} did the host appear to be sweating or was he in a jacket was it raining or dry was he had sea level or high elevation and what country was he in?

After you watch the show and write it down get some books on the country or jump on the net and do more research on the country and the climatic conditions the host was in and verify the species is actually from that type of climate. This would certainly go for any animals not just the hots. Remember Husbandry comes from research and knowledge and these personalities do offer us some useful information by taking us to countries many of us will never get to go to.

[-WilleM-]

hey,
I had a question and I thought it was a little stupid to open a new topic for it.It's also about a first hot,I have been looking and looking for a good first hot(for me personally) and when I read all the info on the net,I see that a snake like the vipera aspis would be perfect.But I just can't find info about keeping them.I'm from Europe(where they live) but are you allowed to keep them in captivity?(I find pics on the internet of these animals in terrariums).And does someone keeps these snakes?
I thank you all
Cheerz
Willem

[Mustangrde1]

Willem im not up on international laws for keeping my best advise is contact your local goverment branch that deals with wildlife and find out. If they are legal then try diffrent classifed adds to locate one. Wish i could help you more

[-WilleM-]

thnx,
But are there people in america that keep them?
Cuz I can't find any caresheets:-s
Do you somethimes see them for sale?
I have asked the same question to a hot keeper from the netherlands..But I'm still waiting for an answer

[Mustangrde1]

You might ask James at http://www.serpentslairreptiles.com/ he probably would know

[lostwithin]

Hi, im ot at all an expert or anything, i dont even own hots, i have een reading aout them whenever i can and hopeing too get one as a display animal, from what ie read though , i would think a cobra (other then there large size ) would be a good hot due too the fact they strike downward, would that not reduce the chances of acidently getting nailed bye one of them ??

Please anyone out there who owns them and knows for sure let me know if im way off, this is just the impression I've got from reading about them
let me know what you think,
Devon

[Mustangrde1]

Lost . Cobras CAN NOT strike only downward but they can hit you from the side and from over thier own body even. I would never recommend a cobra for a first hot ever. possibly something more local to your region of the world would be better only after trainning.

[lostwithin]

Hi, thanks for correcting me, like I had said im not at all an expert, i keep boids, but have yet too purchase any hots, mainly because they're hard too come bye, ive always loved cobras, and have for a long time about getting one strictly as a display animal.And am still planing on getting myself an Albino Monocle Cobra ,if i can find one, but most of what i read said they struck downward, i assumed they could nail you from any posistion , but do they tend too raise there heads and strike down and forward like ive read ??

thanks,
Devon,
P.S. , there are no hots local too my area, so that suggestion just never works for me, but it is a good plan,

[Mustangrde1]

Lost.

I have seen my own cobras come exploding out of substrate with a viper style hit in to a mouse. I have seen them from atop a perch go down on one like you would see an amazon tree boa and ive seen them strike with a hooded responce. They are truly beautiful animals and first and foremost very deadly. I have two Naje haje { egyptian cobras} one is so placid she has never hooded and has no agression the other is a male with absolutly no hesitation to bite. he hoods and come at you mouth wide open fully intent on biting. so even in the same species temperments can be very diffrent.

[Gregg M]

Just to recap on what Scott said, What is the difference if it can strike down, up, left, right, or back????? If you put yourself within it strike range, you made a mistake and some snakes will not hesitate to capitolize on your mess up.......... You better be real sure you know fully what you are getting into....... One slip up can mean your arse.........

[lostwithin]

Hey thanks, again, i agree completely, that it doesn’t really matter, what way they strike, if your in range, but i was told once it was easier too tell where there going too hit when striking, i now know better, thank you, and for the record, if and when i do get a cobra (I'm hoping i will) i will e fully prepared for what I'm getting myself into, its meant too be strictly a display snake, that would be handled only if absolutely necessary, no need putting oneself in harms way for no reason. I have plenty of boids too handle if i feel the need, thanks again
Devon

[Mustangrde1]

Devon good thinking. but keep in mind Cobras are crapping machines so the necssary is almost daily cage cleaning and waterring they are high maintenance. Whatever you do I recommend NO SPITTERS for display unless you want to invest in Windex stock options. Trust me its a lot of fun cleaning spitter venom on glass and the snake needs to be out to safely do it. If your heart set on a Cobra get trained by someone who keeps them. Naja naja and Naja Kaouthia are probably the best bet for display once trained. Curious is this for a petshop display or personal display???

[lostwithin]

Mustangrde1,,

It's for a personal display would never put an animal like that on display in a pet store too many kids go into those, just my opinion, I'm actually looking for a Albino Monacle Cobra (Naja kaouthia) I have done my research and build my own enclosures, I plan too design an enclosure with 1/4" -1/2" tray on the bottom, which will hold Astroturf and a water Bowl will e mounted 1/4"-1/2" above the ground, this way the cage can be cleaned bye sliding the tray out, replacing the turf, and sliding it back in, there will be a vertically sliding piece which will drop down being the tray too ensure there is no way for the snake too push it back out, as well as keeping the snake in once the tray is removed . (I get creative with my cage building). like I said before, I'm limiting contact as much as possible. I just think their beautiful animals.
Devon

[Mustangrde1]

Devons sounds good on design. My monacles love to burrow about so i supply them with 2 inches of cypress mulch in a large vision and i keeep the humidity up. One think i personally feel is needed it constant fixture manipulation. Add or remove logs , rocks , sticks etc . I feal it promotes them to be more active and exploring. always fun though watching them tear up a cage after you made it so nice so use heavy objects.

Older pic below i need some new ones

[lostwithin]

Mustangrde1,

Nice pic, I hadn’t thought of furnishings yet, I was more thinking about a cage designed for little contact, lol, but you obviously keep them would you mind sharing some enclosure pics, and info, also and care info you can give would be a great help, it always helps too get info from somebody who keeps them themselves, I've been struggling too find care information on them even basic requirements from your point of view would be good, once I know everything I need, ill re-design the cage, my e-mail is devoncarier@rogers.com, if you decide too reply with pics and info, thanks,
Devon

[Bartman]

cool pic, do you feed venemous snakes live prey? Or is it still dangerous..

[Gregg M]

Feeding live prey is not bad or dangerous as long as it is supervised...... When a mose or a rat is left in with a snake is when problems will occure........ Aslong as it is watched, it is fine......... Think about it like this, do you think snakes eat frozen/thawed mice and rats in the wild????? LOL

[Jeff Hathaway]

Of course wild snakes rarely eat dead mice. But, then again there are many wild snakes with extensive scars, missing eyes, etc.

Close supervision certainly makes it better, but there are still risks feeding live prey even if you watch things. Not to mention the potential cruelty issues regarding the rodents:-)

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Ssnakes!!

[Gregg M]

Guess you have not seen many gaboons or puffs eat......LOL it is usually over as quick as you can break its neck....... I also do not think you can count a natural cause of death as cruelty........LOL..... And just out of curiosity, what is it you keep anyway......... I dont think you ever told us.......

[Bartman]

yea thats what i was thinking when i read ur post gregg...you can see these snakes with lots of scares from eating live pray but i just figured maybe for venemous snakes, since most of them do the catch and release method, they wouldnt be indangour..like they bite quick and let go just to invenimate. Saw that on tv, it was awesome :D

[Gregg M]

Actually El Barto,
Gaboons and rhino vipers do not let their prey go........ They sink their fangs in and hold it there.......... Like I said though it is a pretty rapid death so there is very little danger of a mouse or rat bitting it....... Not to say it cant happen....... I have just never seen it happen.....

[Bartman]

cool!
Yea i was just watching some tv show and they showed how, i think a cobra, bit the mouse really quickly and flew backward and watched it die and then ate it...cool stuff

[Jeff Hathaway]

Can't say I've ever seen a gaboon or puff eat. The statement wasn't regarding gaboons or puffs, however, it was a general statement about feeding live, which I (and many others) disagree with pretty strongly. Not to say that I've never done it, but it should be avoided where possible, in my opinion.

Since you asked, what I keep is a broad mix. We have the most complete captive collection of native Ontario herp species found anywhere. This includes eastern massasaugas, which are the ONLY venomous species we work with, because we believe that the work we do with them justifies keeping a venomous species. Beyond that we have a mix of exotic species, mostly common pet types. The most 'interesting' from a hobby point of view would probably be eastern indigos; the rest are quite familiar- burms, boa constrictors, BRBs, balls, rats, bulls, milks, blue-tongue & prehensile tailed skinks, leopard & fat-tailed geckos, etc. All told, about 125 specimens of ~50 species/subspecies. Essentially, beyond the native stuff, good examples of 'appropriate pets' & 'inappropriate pets'. Species which are not suitable for public interaction are rarely found in our collection, for obvious reasons. Other than a couple of Phelsuma in the living room, all of these are maintained for use in our educational programs.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Gregg M]

Very cool Jeff,
I must say I admire people that do the work you do with reptiles........ I wish I had the time to do educational programs...... How is it working with those little massasaugas???? From what I understand they are pretty placid snakes........ I have had a few western massasaugas........ They were really good to work with........ Pretty prolific little guys......... One of my favorite non hots you listed would be your indigos....... Are you keeping any garters????? They are my absolute favorite non hot actually.........LOL........ I keep some melanistic and albino checkered.........

[Retic chic]

Originally posted by kao1001
venomous permits aren't obtainable in canada.

Permits ARE obtainable in Canada in the areas where they are restricted. BC, Manitoba and Ontario are relatively accepting of the keeping of hots, except those cities and municipalities where they have by-laws in place.

Alberta and Saskatchewan require a zoo license or research permit to allow the keeping of venomous reptiles. These are easy to apply for, but difficult to obtain. Facilities must be constructed to a specified standard, and annual inspections are required for the renewal of the license. Done right, it is possible, and expensive.

Sheila

[Mustangrde1]

Bart. I have seen my Cobras and others do both bite and retreat and bite and hold on same with some mambas and even boomslangs. It is not always a given how they will react at any given feeding. Feeding live vs dead I have mixed opinions on. For Boides and Colubrids I preffer to always prekill just before throwing it in the cage so it has no chance to harm my animals. Where with my hots it is always live prey as I stand by and watch to insure safety. I am on the side that venom does play a role in digestion and I have a few hots that just will not eat prekilled even if you make it do the rat dance to try and fool them. Frozen thawed is something I do not like unless it was done by me or someone i trust. This in large part is do to over time in a freezer proteins can start to break down and all your feeding at that point is a furball. I have read a couple studies on this and tend to agree with it. Feeding live has risk without a doubt and one of the wourse for the keeper is someone bites and it dies in the hide box and it doesn't eat, the next morning you walk in and its not a very pleasent smell then you have to get it out.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey Gregg,

Thanks for the kind words! It would be hard for me to compare the massasaugas to anything other hot as I have little personal experience with others, but I do find the massasaugas quite easy to work with. Very timid snakes, generally. Adults do seem to hook reasonably well, though they can certainly manage to slide off when they choose. Babies/ juveniles are more annoying to hook, but I suspect that is true with other species.

The indigos are definitely favorites with people who know anything about herps! Big and messy, though:-) Yes, we have garters, and I quite like them too. Currently- 5 normal plus 1 melanistic easterns, 1 red-sided, and 1 Butler's.

It is great doing educational programs. I highly recommend it for anyone who is interested. For us, it is no problem finding the time (except on summer weekends when we're heavily booked!) as it is our full time occupation. It is a tough way to earn a living though!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Mustangrde1]

Jeff. I have a major problem with petshops selling some of the major constrictors to kids and families of young children. I was curious do you keep examples for people to see of the cute little babies vs the full grown adult so people can get an idea of why some of these constrictors do not make good pets?

[Gregg M]

Good point Scott,
I feel that large constrictor should only be kept by experianced keepers also....... It is all too easy for some kid to go out and buy a baby burm or retic....... Honestly, I feel there should be a permit system for large boids as they are not good pets....... It is a shame how many of them wind up on a zoos door step because the person that bought it as a cute little baby realized it was getting too big to control and keep........ Not to mention the feeding cost....... Jeff, this might be something you would want to look into for your program if you do not do it already.......

[jay72]

Here in Florida we now have large constrictors established in Everglades National Park as a result of people releasing them after they get to big. I feel there shoud be a permit system as well. We recieve "wild caught" Burmese Pythons from Park Rangers several times a year.

Sloane Russeck

[Jeff Hathaway]

On the large constrictor subject, absolutely. We have 2 burms, and 2 boa constrictors (have had more), and virtually every program we present features one of them in the 'inappropriate pet' role (as opposed to the corns, milks, balls, etc.) All of our large constrictors have come from people who no longer wanted them, either as donations or occasionally we've paid a bit, except for one burm from an animal control department.

The enclosures we're currently working on (see my thread in the enclosure forum) as part of our future public facility are for these and the iguanas we're sure to end up with. We've tentatively called this area the 'hall of horrors', not because the animals are scary but because of the horrible things that can happen when people buy them in pet shops.

In truth, however, I think boa constrictors aren't unreasonable for people with some experience and resources. I just hate seeing them in every pet shop. And I'm a big fan of permit systems in general for large constrictors (3m (10')+), large lizards such as nile monitors, crocodilians, and venomous.

The Everglades situation isn't good, and I suspect it will get much worse over the next decade:-(

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[jay72]

While we are on th the subject. I feel that Crocodilians in all states should be subject to strict llicensing rules like we have in Florida. It is a tragedy(in my opinion) that Alligators and certain Croc species are sold in pet stores. The majoity of people who buy those cute little gators are not equiped to deal with them when they get bigger and its the animal that always suffers. We have a rescue Gator now thats face is deformed because the previous owner kept him in too small of an enclosure.

Sloane Russeck

[Mustangrde1]

The situation in South Florida is sickening at times when you concider the large and well established number of species and the population that are thriving and breeding. It is safe to say catching 200 brown basilisk or 100 Iguanas a night is not hard if your motivated. The burm popualtion growing and doing well. Floridas invasives are growing in number and species. It doesnt take a brain surgeon or Rocket scientist to figure we have a great climate for them just look at all the old people who migrate here lol.

http://www.wildflorida.org/critters/exotics/resultsClass.asp?taxclass=R

I think this really needs to be updated.

[Gregg M]

Hey Scott,
I think they forgot about the King Cobras....... If I catch one When I come and see you in April, I am shipping back to my house.....LOL

[Mustangrde1]

Ya right.... I think your odds are better at finding a Gabby. Speaking of April bring children with you its only a month and your a far safer method of transport.

I was aout collecting last night and found 1, 5 to 6 foot range Indigo 3 Dekays 2 brown water snakes and countless ribbons snakes. Things are starting to warm up nicely and had the big full moon not decided to show up it probably would have been better.
NO MORE COLD FRONTS PLEASE!!!! You Northerners need to keep them to yourself dont share them like you share your Snow Birds...lol....

[snakechaser]

inland taipan?