list all the reason for this......

[ballpython101]

i would like to know all the wrong reasons for putting 2 ball pythons in the same enclosure ?

my 2 b.p. are always on top of each other when i check on them, they never seem to be stressed or uncomfortable.....

i would like to know some reason why i shouldnt.... im alway handling my b.p. and they never seem stress...... i notice alot in the pet stores that they would have 2-3 b.p. in the same tank...... also at the shows they are in a clear box with 5-10 together......


write back.. inform me thankz

[mykee]

Do a search in this forum and you'll find plenty of reasons.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Ok.... First off, shows and pet stores are trying to MAXIMIZE space, not provide optimal care conditions. Oh, and don't ever follow what pet stores do as far as caring for animals. They have a completely separate agenda than a keeper should.

Now, I'll list a good reason not to house two snakes (most species) together but I'll leave some reasons for others. :)

- You ball pythons aren't stressed? How do yo know that, have you checked their blood pressure? Do they have a scowl on their faces? Being curled up together doesn't mean they aren't stressed, it means they both want to be at that temperature or in that hide. Period. They aren't "chillin' out" together or enjoying each other’s company. They don't need or want other animals in their territory.


Next....

[themangler]

I say that their your snakes, do what you want. I honestly don't see anything wrong with it.People say they don't live together in the wild, but in the wild, they don't live in a box either.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Good advice "themangler". They're your snake so do whatever you want with them?!?!? People with attitudes like that shouldn't be allowed to own pets. It is YOUR responsibility to provide the PROPER care. If you can't or don't want to do that, you don't deserve the animals. Sorry, but that's the hard truth of it.

Keep giving the good advice... NOT.

Later....

[daver676]

ballpython101 AND themangler,

These are MORE reasons why NOT to keep 2 snakes together:

Another snake in the enclosure is viewed as more competition for food, which in turn leads to stress.

If one snake gets sick, the other most likely will as well.

If you ever want to get a fecal exam done, how would you tell which poop came from which snake?

It costs soooo little to set up another enclosure. Why wouldn't you do that for the benefit of the pet? It is the pet's well being that should come first.

[marisa]

I couldn't agree with Tim Cranwills post more. Attitudes like that are the reason pets die everyday...because someone said "their your pets care for them however you wish" What a scary statement you put on the internet for any person of any experience to read without even thinking of possible consequences. (sp)

Marisa

[marisa]

As for why BallPython101...

If you house two snakes together you will automatically have TWO vet trips if one is sick. You'll never have any control over the situation. If one regurges, who is it? They are solitary, not SOCIAL!

Marisa

[sapphire_moon]

As marisa said, solitary not social.
And although keeping them in conatinment is unnatural, so is FORCING them to be kept together.

ballpython101, Do you know how much it costs to take care of a sick snake? It could easily go into the hundreds, if not thousands, now times that by 2. Do you want to be paying 400$ for 2 sick snakes? Or more?

themangler-care for it how you wish. How do you think more herps die? because a person don't WANT to take a sick animal to the vet believeing it will clear up in time. Or because they don't realy want to spend the extra $$$$ on a new heating pad because the other one broke.
You WANTED to have this animal and you WILLINGLY took it into your care, it wansn't forced on you. So if you are going to take an animals LIFE into your hands, take care of it properly.

[BoidKeeper]

We shouldn't have to list the reasons for you. When you learn about snakes you will be able to make your own list. No one ever made me a list. That is one of the things I figured out for myself.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Tim_Cranwill]

Trevor, <u>EXACTLY</u>!!!! :) Research is the <b><u>first</u></b> step you take even before you go shopping for your herp. That is not to say that you won't have questions but some of their most basic needs should be learned looooong before you bring your snake(s) home.

It's amazing that these same "newbie" questions keep coming up week after week after week....no, wait... it's not amazing. It's because the people who are asking these questions are the type of people who won't do a search on this forum to find the 300 posts on this very subject on their own. They don't do their REASEARCH! :(

Nothing personal, it just gets really tiresome answering the same questions over and over...

[mykee]

Very well stated Tim, that should be this forums' mission statement.

[mykee]

Also, I remember a post you made on Feb. 5 in this same forum:
"...for ball pythons they like there space n their home for themselves...i have a 4-5 month old female ball she is 27-30 inches n about a month ago i put my new ball with her. he is 17-19inches at first she would run from him n hiss...and for the past two weeks, i put him back in there n she chases him out..."

Right outta your own mouth, is THAT not a good enough reason for not keeping your two balls together?

[Big Mike]

Isn't the fact that they are always on top of one another enough to show you that they are not housed properly. It appears that there is only one comfortable spot for the two snakes.

If you said that the both lived in one enclosure and they rarely came into contact with each other...that would be much better than saying they are always together....but that's still not as good as housing them separately.

This site is about exchanging information. There are people here with a wealth of experience to share. It's good to think about the advice being given but don't refute it because it's inconvenient to you.

[MouseKilla]

I actually agree that they are your snakes and you can do what you want with them. Hell eat them, make a pair of boots with them if that's what you bought them for, meat's meat, leather's leather. If that's your angle then stress isn't a big issue.

Personally that isn't why I bought the snakes I have, I want them to grow and thrive, maybe breed so for that reason I try to learn from some of the more experienced keepers out there. It's up to you, they are yours. If you want them to do well though it would be wise to listen to the advice of people who know more about the animals than you do.

On the stress thing, I disagree that it is impossible to know when the animal is stressed. You don't need to be the Pet Psychic to know when a BP is stressed, they'll just go off their food and stay off till you either correct your husbandry or they starve themselves to death.

Good luck.

[marisa]

"go off their food and stay off till you either correct your husbandry or they starve themselves to death. "

I agree with this mostly... but it brings up a good point. Obviously they won't eat while stressed but at the same time people are constantly thinking they have stressed balls, or "picky" balls when in fact they are SIMPLY fasting naturally. They naturally take a break from eating, and it can be totally normal.

But this leads you to ANOTHER reason not to house together. If you have two snakes together, one stops eating....why? Is it stress? Is it something else? Is it the natural fast? You won't know because you have two snakes together and will have that many more factors to contemplate. (sp) When you house one on one....if one goes off food, husbandry is good, etc then you can safely assume its just gonna fast and eat when it will.

Marisa

[morph]

Tim I am not bagging on you but people come here too ask ?'s thats a huge part of this site esp. newbies who need those ?'s answered more than anyone. I would rather answer the same ? a 1000 times than have somebody too afraid to post a ? because they think it's stupid or been asked before. If anyone doesn't want to answer the ? then don't but that kinda defeats the site doesn't it.

Scott

[Vengeance]

Also you should really take into account that the search box isn't exactly the easiest thing to spot. If you don't know where it is on the site and you’re not sure where to look I doubt your going to find it. I mean it's a 1 inch box contained within 3 full pages of other stuff. Maybe if it was much more visible and easier to use there would be no excuse not to use it but currently I see no reason to rag on anyone for not using it because it's so obscure.

*edit*

Just as a side note, I've been reading these forums for a few months now and I just now noticed the search button on the top title bar, I thought the only one that existed was the small box on the main page, either way not the easiest things to pick out.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Scott I see your point... for sure. I went on my little tangent because it seems to me that this question comes up sooo often and half the time you have to battle with the person to get them to see the light. (may not be the case with “ballpython101”)

"themangler's" remarks just kind of irritated me. The forums ARE all about helping people with their concerns and there ARE two or three sides to every story but with a topic so widely covered and agreed upon, why dispute it? Why give someone conflicting advice when the "right" answer is so obvious.

So, it's not so much the question it’s self, it's more the up hill battle after you give them a list of reasons that bugs me. It’s even more the people who contradict sound advice with plain BAD advice. But I guess everyone’s opinions should be heard…. Mine just might be louder. :D I speak out when I feel it's warranted and I am usually more polite but this time I got rubbed the wrong way. Sorry…

The search box could use some improvements for sure. But you're not limited to the search button. You can "browse" the forums, read some care sheets, read a book or two and etc.

[BoidKeeper]

Ask me a question about the instructions. Don't ask me to read you the instructions. That's all I'm saying.
Trevor

[Tim_Cranwill]

Again, BANG ON, Trevor.... What I have said in 300 words, you've said better in less than 20. :D

[Slannesh]

Perhaps someone, (Maybe even me) should compile a list of Frequently asked questions and answers and then a Moderator can make them a sticky? Easy to find and right at the top of the page where you can't miss them.

I know when I first started on ssnakess.com I spent several days reading through post after post in the areas I was interested in. Even now I usually spend at least an hour on here a day and sometimes several.

I know I don't mind answering newbie questions over and over so long as the person asking really wants to know and doesn't just want you to tell them what they want to hear. I think that's the reason most people get stressed about it.

[sapphire_moon]

I've noticed the same thing, people who say "they don't mind answering questions over and over" are people who don't have many posts. Not saying thats a bad thing, infact I am sure I said it to when I was first here.

But after you are here a while, it does get a bit annoying when you can scroll down the page a little and see 3 threads that read basicly the same thing "he won't eat, it's been 1wk since..., and my bp went of food, help!" like maybe 3-5 threads apart! And while the search box is not the easiest thing to find, just scroll down the page, all the way and there it is.

It shouldn't have to be an "uphill" battle to get people to take care of their animals. Either you do or you don't. If you do then you have an animal that thrives, and lives a long, healthy happy life. If not you have an animal that slowly dies, probably in pain and sure as hell not happy.

Just give them the information, and if they don't give their animal the proper care then (ONLY IN MY OPINON) killed their own animal with ignorance beacuse they didn't want to take care of it......

[Slannesh]

I was speaking in general, and no, I don't mind answering the same questions over and over again. I do phone based tech support for a living so I get asked the same 10 questions probably 50 times a day every day for the last 6 years :)

Post count doesn't mean squat i'm sorry to say, experience and a willingness to help does.

As I said in my last post, coming in fresh to hundreds or thousands of threads is a daunting task and it IS easier to just ask your question then spend hours hunting through thread after thread that sometimes isn't QUITE what you want to ask.

That being said, there are a lot of almost word for word repeat questions. People want easy access to information with the least amount of work, that's human nature. So i'll step up I suppose ;)

If a Moderator approves it i'll start on an FAQ Document for both this and the Leopard Gecko forums as those are the two I most frequent and actually have a bit of knowledge about.

[themangler]

i have two snakes both in there own house and would not have it any other way i was just getting you guys going and it didn't take much! i agree (only one snake=only one vet bill)i even told my wife this will stir the bees nest up!

[Slannesh]

themangler: Great, so you give out bad advice to new people asking questions to just amuse yourself? Please do us all a favor and find another way to do it, there are enough problems with general husbandry as it is without people 'helping out' with blatant stupidity.

[themangler]

never heard so much whinning in my life,go cry to all the zoo's that house 2 snakes together and call steve irwin and tell him to seperate his 2 retics.

[BoidKeeper]

That will do. Let's not start mud slining.
Trevor

[mykee]

If you keep your mouth shut, people will only THINK you're stupid, don't open your mouth and prove it.
It seems that the people with nothing to say, say it often and the loudest.

[themangler]

take your own advice mykee! and zip it ! i guess there is only one way to care for snakes and thats your way and if you do any thing different your stupid (what ever)i still believe two snakes are fine together, and as long as there's a quarintine time before putting them together. That way, if they got sick, it's your husbandry that probably makes them sick, not the other snake. I keep my two seperated because they're burm's. Try feeding 2 of them at 11ft long. But if I had a couple of Ball's or redtails, I'd keep them together, and I've had 2 redtails together before and I know someone when I was kid that had 2 redtails, this was when I was 14 years old, I'm 30 now and this guy still has both these snakes live and still together. So, like I said at the beginning, I believe it's alright to keep two snakes together.

[marisa]

Well you're pretty much alone in that. So don't you think it would be more educational and more conductive to this forum to keep your minor experience with housing together to yourself? Or at least share it in a way that you aren't calling people names, or being a jerk? Every person here actually gave reasons but you didn't give one reason that is benefical to the SNAKES to house together. There isn't one. I am sorry but that's the truth.

When you have a newbie come here to ask a question you generally want to give them the method which will come with most sucess. Fine your buddy keeps snakes together? That's nice. But to tell a person without experience this is o.k. and then let them do it IS wrong. They don't know their snakes, they aren't experienced at keeping the enviroment perfect, they wouldn't know if problems are arising like your buddy might etc. So its ridiculous to suggest they should house their two snakes together.

But keep up the good fight. Maybe one day someone who counts will actually agree with you and we will all re-examine it. But, I doubt that. One person (you) coming here and telling everyone they are wrong sounds silly especially if you give no reasons or even try to asnwer how you avoid the common problems.

Don't you see why people would become defensive? You just throw it out and expect people to believe you.

Marisa

[themangler]

Quote keep your minor experience with housing together to yourself?marisa have you kept two snakes together?(probably no)so who has minor experience!lol i have so thats why i type!Quote you didn't give one reason that is benefical to the SNAKES to house together. I didn't give a reason because there isn't a benefical reason to keep snakes together, I'm just saying I believe you can. Your opinion might be diffirent, so be it.

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Lets all stop the argumental Jibber Jabber now. I think it would be best for a new snake owner to keep the snakes seperate, because, as marisa said, they might now know to recodnize the signs of illness or bad husbandry. Lets all get along. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but what may seem better for the animals right now should be done. Cool?

Chris

[snakehunter]

Mangler, if ther isnt a good reason to house two snakes in the same enclosure, then why do it?

do you think that the few people on this thread that think houseing two together are right, and that the infinite members who STRONGLY disagree are just idiots and that WE dont know wtf we are talking about.

I have made the housing mistake, and lost a snake to it, and the survivor has many problems becaues of it. this still haunts me to this day, and if the poor treatment of your herps does not disturb you, GET OF THE SITE! We are passionate keepers, and wish to spread good knowledge, and not rubish.

I suggest you pick up a copy of the BP manual and read it thuroughly.

woo, typing angrily makes me hungry!
-'cob

[BoidKeeper]

snakhunter, passionate or not you can't tell someone to get off this site. This thread has to clean up or it will be closed.
Trevor

[snakehunter]

Sorry, I appologize.

I was just enflamed by the general discussion. again, i appologize

[mykee]

Trevor, I can't see this thread going anywhere but down. Unfortunate, but it's getting to be a common occurance lately...

[BoidKeeper]

Some topics we just have to agree to disagree on I guess. As long as we present facts to back up our potions then it will be up to the individual to decided based on the facts presented who's advice to follow and who's to disregard.
snakehunter,
No worries man. We've all been there.
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Some topics we just have to agree to disagree on I guess. As long as we present facts to back up our potions then it will be up to the individual to decided

Heh heh....I don't have any "potions". Well, 'cept *** Potion #5, hee hee........ :p :eek: :cool: :D

[BoidKeeper]

Always a wise guy eh.
Do you ever let anything go pretty boy?
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

If it wasnt' so funny.....ha ha...I would have just ignored it. LOL! Ahhhh Chewie...always good for a chuckle....

[Lisa]

Some one of note that keeps his snakes together is Bob Applegate. And it's not one or two boas or ball pythons... he keeps KINGSNAKES together. He's only had one issue of attemted cannibalism and no fatalities.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just posting this to make people think (not to mention marisa wanted something from some one notable that keeps snakes together).

[marisa]

Well like I said in my post, its the telling someone who is NOT notable, not experienced, that its o.k..Bob Applegate has had YEARS to know these animals, breed them and watch behaviour....but yes perfect example.

It can obviously work, but why tell a newbie to "go ahead and try it" thats the scary part. :(

Ah well. In the end humans are humans and only do whats best for them in most situations.

Marisa

[RaVeNo888o]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
I actually agree that they are your snakes and you can do what you want with them. Hell eat them, make a pair of boots with them if that's what you bought them for, meat's meat, leather's leather. If that's your angle then stress isn't a big issue.


I think some people may have missed what might have been one of the best points made in this thread relating to the actual topic.
MouseKilla was trying to get them to stop and think about this for a second. Why do they have the snakes in the first place? Most likely its because they wanted one as a pet becuase they seemed interesting, seeing as they were a beginner. The best interest should be in the snakes needs, and everything in our power should be done to try and make sure our pets live in comfortable circumstances. I highly doubt that a rubbermaid is not within the origional poster's power. But in their defence, before i started reading posts on this site, i would have never thought of putting a snake in a rubbermaid, so its not neccessarily that obvious to some.
At the same time, for some of us, and the more knowledgable of the members here, this issue is more like common sense to us. But to someone who is just getting into the hobby, there being a problem with houseing two snakes together may not be something they thought of, I would commend them for even coming here to ask. If they did not care at all about the care of the animal, then they would not have even stumbled accross this site. (not that i don't aggree that they should read back threads on the subject, god knows i spent many hours reading well back into the forums of interest to me. And not that i dont think people entering the hobby should do their research, but truth is that many people didn not know that it was so complex or that there really was anything to research in the first place. Afterall, to the general public, the petstore knows wut they are talking about. It is their job being a pet store to know about the pets right?:rolleyes: ;) )

This post wasnt really directed at any specific members or posts, rather just trying to put it all into perspective. In short, remember why it is that you got the pet in the first place..to CARE for them. If to you, cared for = living without obvious physical problems, then maybe you should revive that pet rock you had back in kindergarden, i hear that they are quite communal.