More Questions...

[Herpocrite]

I have a couple more questions.

I've been told/read several things about feeding.
1) Feed snakes dead prey.
2) Don't feed them on substrate.
3) Use a separate enclosure to feed them - not their cage.
4) Don't handle them for 24hrs after feeding.

Ok... so first off how do you not handle them for 24hrs post feeding if you're using a separate feeding enclosure... one without substrate. Also, if they don't eat immediately and you decide to leave the prey in the enclosure over night (as I have heard suggested by many) then won't you have to leave your snake in a cold enclosure, without substrate overnight everytime you feed them? It seems that some of these tips are mutually exclusive. Can someone shed some light on this for me? I've simply been breaking number 4 up until now when I put my baby girl back into her viv after she's eaten (usually within 20 minutes). No regurging yet.


My next question: Is it ok to handle her in the days before her shed? Should I minimize my handling? She doesn't seem to mind (as evidenced by the fact that she didn't snap at me), but I've heard that it's not a good idea. Why?


My next, next question: A good friend of mine has fallen in love with my girl and she has decided to get one (I beat her to the punch). She wants to get a male BCI so that our snakes can eventually (in three or four years) breed and has asked me to go with her and help her look around. What should we look for besides all the normal health stuff (clear nostrils, no mites, nice round body etc). What are interesting characteristics to breed? I'm not really into the whole albino, snow, breed em like they're British royalty thing. I just want some normal, healthy, good looking snakes. I've noticed that my BCI has significantly more saddles than most BCIs (25 as apossed to 20 or 21). Should I perhaps advise her to get a lovely little male with a comparable number of saddles and go all out for saddle-mania? Or should we just find a male with a good temperment who we like and leave the rest up to chance? Just looking for opinions. Thanks.

Herpocrite.

[Big_V]

By not handling after feeding people mean just make it minimum...after it eats give it a few mins and put it right back into the enclosure and leave it for at least 24 hours. Most ppl just use newspaper for a substrate so that is why they say you can leave it in overnight. Otherwise you do run the risk of the snake injesting the substrate. In regards to handling you want to give the snake the least amount of stress before shedding so dont over handle or maul the animal but a various amount of handling is okay EXCEPT when the eyes are opaque (blue)...they cant see very well and will likely snap at you.
In regards to what she is looking for just get something that appeals to her. The better the pattern the more interesting it will be and the better it would be to breed the two of them. But pick an animal that she will like because if you dont breed them you dont want to be suck with something that you dont want to look at. Hopefully this helps.
Cheers,
Ryan

[Jeff_Favelle]

#1 and #4 are good, the others....well....... :o

[tHeGiNo]

I agree with Jeff. Oftentimes, people suggest feeding in another cage, so that the snake does not interact you going into the cage with feeding time. But that could work both ways, if you think about it. Personally, I do not bother with step three. Step two is more of your choice. What do you plan on using as a substrate? If you are worried about an impaction, just put a mat over the substrate and take it out in a few days.

My next question: Is it ok to handle her in the days before her shed? Should I minimize my handling? She doesn't seem to mind (as evidenced by the fact that she didn't snap at me), but I've heard that it's not a good idea. Why?

Again, this is your personal preference. The way I see it is that snakes in shed want to be left alone. They have very minimal sight and are often trying to hide at this point. I figure that handling them during shed is just uneccessary stress. So, in my opinion, no - do not handle your snakes when they are in shed.

As far as which type of BCI to look for, that depends if you are going for quality. If this is what your looking for, seek a boa with minimal speckling and a bright red tail. If you're not worried about quality, seek a healthy and docile animal.

[M_surinamensis]

The feeding response topic is an interesting one with some validity to both sides of the argument.

All snakes are hardwired instinctual animals, there's the greatest animals on the planet but they're not too bright... Stimulus triggers instinct which dictates response. What many people seem to fail to realize is that this still leaves a great deal of room for behavioral deviation, both through genetic drift and because applying truly identical stimulus is very difficult.

The point being, there are triggers specific to each species (or in species with multiple subspecies and a larger range, each population) that dictate when they will and when they will not respond to a stimulus as being food. Generally these triggers can be identified by factors like prey scent, prey temperature at certain times of day, the size, the movement, the angle or direction of approach (this last more so with highly arboreal species but it holds true). It's impossible to really teach a snake anything, their brain simply isn't capable of the formation of truly new skills... there is a limited ability to modify existing instincts a bit though and after a great deal of repetition, there is some pattern reccognition IF it's related to an associated instinct.

All of which is well and good, but what does it mean to the average keeper? Well... basically that every species has a different tendency to develop feed responses that are associated with a given action or location. Some species like burms have a very VERY strong feed response and will quickly adapt to patterns (like being moved to another enclosure or, if it's the only time you open their normal enclosure, your prescence) which can make them quick to bite anything when they're in feeding mode, including their keepers and inanimate objects. Other species are so specific in their feed responses that the enclosure used makes no difference because they're waiting for that life, frog scented pinky mouse after the lights have gone off. Boa constrictors generally fall someplace in the middle, they're healthy feeders who will eat a fairly wide range of prey in the wild and aren't generally too picky unless there's a health or environmental problem, but they're also not too likely to frequently start smashing their face into the glass looking for food when they see a human being within six feet of their enclosure.

The benefits to using a different enclosure would be the ease of cleaning it in case of incidental mess and the fact that if a feed response does develop, you're aware of what it's associated with and can take a bit of extra caution when they're in their rubbermaid. The disadvantages are that you have to move the snake around in a manner which might not be entirely needed, you have to keep a rubbermaid just for the animal (although this or a bucket for little guys isn't a bad idea anyway) and if they do develop a feeding response, they're not always easy to remove from the feeding enclosure.

As a personal choice, if it matters at all- I generally don't bother with a different feeding enclosure for Boa constrictors. They're pretty good about knowing what is and isn't food and, with the sometimes exception of hungry neonates, most of them aren't that agressive anyway (BCI and BCC, in the interests of limiting the discussion to the topic raised).

I would take issue with the prekilled prey if this were a discussion about feeding hots, but for boids, prekilled is safer and easier.

[Herpocrite]

Originally posted by M_surinamensis
All snakes are hardwired instinctual animals, there's the greatest animals on the planet but they're not too bright... Stimulus triggers instinct which dictates response. What many people seem to fail to realize is that this still leaves a great deal of room for behavioral deviation, both through genetic drift and because applying truly identical stimulus is very difficult.


Hey! Let's not start that again.


Thanks for all the advice though folks.

Herpocrite.

[Linds]

Seperate feeding containers are a bad idea IMHO, with special exceptions (such as feeding more than one snake, or snakes that will only feed in a little cramped box :rolleyes: You are far more likely to get bitten feeding outside the enclosure, and it gets especially risky when you are dealing with larger snakes. Handling a large snake in feeding mode is never a good thing! Also, there is no benefit to the snake in being handled directly after a meal, and in some cases may cause the snake to regurgitate. There is no evidence to support the idea that snakes will associate your hand or their enclosure with meal time. Way back when, I employed this method for a few animals. Havings used both methods I have noticed no difference in the animals behavioural state. Agressive animals calmed down eventually (or stayed the way they were), and calm animals stayed calm. Nobody became nippy due to being fed, and some went the other way.

[Herpocrite]

What if my current viv has bark as substrate?

Herpocrite.

[Herpocrite]

I mean do you REALLY think that the snake will ingest bark. How do these things survive in the wild? There's a lot of bark out there. ;-)

Herpocrite.

[Linds]

Depends. Are they large nuggets that your snake won't stick to the prey or be accidentally ingested? Are they small pieces that may pose a risk of impaction? If in doubt, you can always just place a peice of newspaper over top of the existing substrate to prevent any potential problems.

What kind of bark is it? Many of the barks available are made from softwoods, which contain phenols that can be harmful to your snake.

[marisa]

The whole "Don't feed in enclosure or else your snake will associate your hand with food" thing is so silly IMHO.

For one, if you are practicing good husbandry lets say you are going to open the cage once per week for feeding, once per week for say a spot clean and water change, and another time or two for handling. (Again this is just example not a guidline of how many times I think you should open the cage per week! lol) That's approx. 3-5 cages opening per week with only ONE being for feeding. To assume the snake will associate every single time with food is just silly! It doesn't make sense to me.

Secondly, if the snake is so easy to associate a hand with feeding IN cage, then what makes people they cannot associate the feeding tub with food coming? LOL. In my minor experience I have found most "near bites" and bites occur when moving from the feeding tub back into the enclosure. Not only is the snake in feeding mode but you are now having to touch it. LOL :D

With all my snakes I use paper towel, feed in enclosure (some since birth or just a few months old) and I have never EVER been even struck at for just sticking my hand in for a cage clean, water change, etc. But I have most certaintly been "threatened' by them when I go to remove them from a feeding tub when I used that method. Anyways been feeding IN cage for about two years now, not a bite yet because of it.

:D Anyways obviously these are just some thoughts throw out there and not directed specifically at anything. Just tossed them out :D

Marisa

[tHeGiNo]

I mean do you REALLY think that the snake will ingest bark. How do these things survive in the wild? There's a lot of bark out there. ;-)

It happens more then one would expect, actually. Not all occurances are fatal, but in my opinion it is better to be safe then sorry.

If in doubt, you can always just place a peice of newspaper over top of the existing substrate to prevent any potential problems.

Thats exactly what I do, and what I suggested.

[Cruciform]

Quote:
I mean do you REALLY think that the snake will ingest bark. How do these things survive in the wild? There's a lot of bark out there. ;-)
:Unquote

Ex-lax and Kaopectate. The reptile's secret weapon.

[Jeff_Favelle]

All snakes are hardwired instinctual animals, there's the greatest animals on the planet but they're not too bright... Stimulus triggers instinct which dictates response. What many people seem to fail to realize is that this still leaves a great deal of room for behavioral deviation, both through genetic drift and because applying truly identical stimulus is very difficult.


Shhhh.... don't let Ken hear you talk like that! LOL!


M_surinamensis , great post, I fully agree. I'm not worried about being tagged by any of my snakes, because anyone who observes the damn things for more than 5 minutes a day should be able to read their actions/reactions. They want food? They get food. Its not a huge procedure. If I want to take one out of its cage or move it, I do that too. Its not like I'm bathing in rat pee and then jumping in the cage with them making rat puppets with my hands. They know what's up. They might strike and hiss, ha ha, but they I'm not a food source.

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Its not like I'm bathing in rat pee and then jumping in the cage with them making rat puppets with my hands.



Is that why I keep getting bit? LOL!

[Linds]

Originally posted by Herpocrite
I mean do you REALLY think that the snake will ingest bark. How do these things survive in the wild? There's a lot of bark out there. ;-)


If it wasn't a risk, then there wouldn't be any animals ever dying of impaction. The small stuff easily gets stuck to rats, and occasionally even the larger stuff might be scooped up as well. Now in the wild they don't live on mulch or bark chips... there is of course loose matter, but generally a lot of it is secure or firm. They probably do ingest some from time to time, but since they are not constantly eating on the same loose junk, they have time to pass it without building up.