How would this enclosure size do...

[emroul]

For an adult female Python breitensteini or Python brongersmai (I have not yet decided which I'm getting yet..I still have enough time for that ....) :

http://animalshare.wantapet.com/animalplastics/terrestrial/img18.gif

The enclosure is from Animal Plastics, INC...

The dimensions for that cage are 72L x 30D x 18H...I am really thinking about getting that cage and housing a hatchling in it for its entire life. Would this be acceptable for a baby (as long as an adequate amount of hides are provided)? Or would it be better to just house it in a 28-56 quart rubbermaid until it grows big enough for a cage of that size?

Thanks for your time,
Jennifer

[crazyboy]

sounds good to me

[Grant vg]

Great for an adult, but horrible for a hatchling, or juvi for that matter.

[Grant vg]

And crazyboy, dont dish out advice like "sounds good to me" when you obviously have no clue what your talking about.

Thats a HUGe cage for a hatchling.
You are much better off using a small rubbermaid for the time being till its big enough (4 feet) to comfortably be housed in there.
You will probably experience some major feeding problems with a cage that size and a hatchling in it.

[Big_V]

Yeah from what ive learned with my new red blood i got just over 2 months ago is that a smaller enclosure is better when they are younger. It gives them a sence of security and they will do a tonne better. It seems to stress out the little guys when they have too much room. That would be awesome for an adult but bad for a much smaller specimen. Refer to Grants care page on this site. It did wonders for my decision to get into Bloods and was awesome. I owe him a great deal of thanks for just putting that together.
Cheers, Ryan

[Linds]

I agree with Grant. Although it <i>could</i> be made to be a suitable environment for a hatchling, with the amount of decor, plants, hides, etc. you would have to pile in there., you would never be able to find your snake, and the upkeep on a setup like that would be tremendous.

[axwielding1]

Too timid a hatchling for that, trust me. Try appropriate sized housing with at least 2 hides and a water dish it can get in. Keep everything tight and secure as hatchlings. When it gets 2 feet, and is eating well, then let it stretch out.........a little.
ax.

[emroul]

Thanks for the replies everyone. :) They are much appreciated. And Ryan, (or maybe I should direct this to Grant) where is that care page you are talking about? I would really love to read up on it. I was really figuring that I was going to be housing a hatchling in a small rubbermaid until she grows big enough for such an extreme sized enclosure. But that would be a good size for an adult, am I correct? She would have enough "stretch room", yet feel comfortably secure in her environment?

Oh, one more question, if ya don't mind. :D What on earth would you use for a hide for a full grown blood? Maybe a cat litter pan turned upside-down or something? Would that be big enough?

Again, thank you for the advice. :)
Jennifer

[emroul]

Oh, and Linds, I'm not too crazy about the whole "natural" look with all that stuff in the enclosure. I'm old fashioned (and maybe a bit lazy..or maybe a neat-freak? LOL)..I like two hides, a water bowl, and paper towels. :D That's how everyone is being housed here, and I love it. (They don't seem to mind it too much either). :D

Jennifer

[Big_V]

Jennifer, here is the link to Grants Care page...its actually on the homepage under navigation at the top left. http://www.ssnakess.com/caresheets/shorttailed/blood.htm

Cheers,
Ryan

[Invictus]

Most adult bloods that I've seen in various peoples' collections are without hides, and they do just fine. Those that were calm babies are still calm despite being without hides. My blood is still a baby, and she does have a hide, but doesn't use it. I'm not entirely convinced that this species is as timid as others, which is why I think the theory of a cage being "too big" is silly. If they are in a hide, they are not even the slightest bit AWARE of anything outside their immediate environment. They simple don't care how big the cage is. Grant, I'm definitely not meaning to dismiss your words here, but you have to agree that if they are hiding, they have no awareness of anything outside of the hide box, correct?

[Grant vg]

Ken,

the reason why most breeders dont use hides with adult bloods is 1. some think it is not neccessary (like you said) and 2. lack of adequate space to fit two hides leaving enough room for movement, etc...plus they always seem to shift them around which gets kind of annoying every morning when they're both on the hot side, and vice versa.

I have been guilty of this in the past.

And what i have noticed is that 99% of the time, they will hide underneath the newspaper...which is even MORE annoying!
Thus, i would think they are looking for security and a retreat.
They arn't like your regular boa that will curl up in a picture perfect ball formation and huddle in a corner, and thermoregulate regularly. (no matter how badly we would like an impressive looking blood to do that.)
Dont get me wrong, ive witnessed them do it here and there, but never on a regular enough basis to actually make myself believe they dont seek security.
I have witnessed many different bloods seek certain sides, certain positions. certain hides, and certain temperatures as well as individual "personalities".
Now this is good, but not when you have to maintain a couple dozen of them and every morning you know which ones will have there water bowls tipped, which ones always shift there hides, which ones seem to always urinate on a regular basis, etc...
I know i havn't answered your question yet but im getting there...lol

The point i am trying to make is that regardless of what my caresheet, NERDS caresheet, VPI's caresheet tells you just because this is its own species...doesn't mean every single one is going to have a set way of housing or "personality" or like being fed this, or housed in that, etc...
So i would not leave out the possibility of a hatchling blood being able to thrive in a 6 foot enclosure. Hell, you would think because they do it in the wild they could do it in a 6 foot enclosure, right?

Heres comes the but....

But, You must take into consideration the knowledge gained over the years by people like the Barkers, Kara, Roy, perhaps myself in my short time as well as others who have experienced and learned from past information and hands on experience.
This has led us to a few given rules one must attempt first and then tweak it if need be.
And results are results.
If 95% of bloods thrive well in smaller, tighter, dimmer, humid conditions in captivity. One should only conclude that this would be the way about doing things, or in this case, setting up things with these requirements.
As a start anyways...
No one can predict that this blood will enjoy more humidity then that one, or that that one will use its hides more regularly then this one.
it would be nice! but its not the case.
But never would i suggest groing up a blood in a big 6 foot enclosure like the one above. It just wouldn't be right, as i've never housed a hatchling in a 6 foot enclosure with success, but i have housed smaller ones in cages 1/2 that size with ill-results.
So that would only make me think that an extra 3 feet wouldn't work either.

Sure you can argue that the security of the hide, in the end, is whats important.
But the idea of having a bunch of hides, or the security of a "hide" in a big enclusure doesn't neccessarily mean it will thrive.
Only the strong survive as the saying goes.
Seeing that most bloods have differing personalities, one would only think that in the wild, some dont make it because they lack the ability of others, like being stronge to begin with, perhaps some are more "outgoing" then others for the search of food. Perhaps, some like you say, are more timid then others, therefore lessening there chance of survival when it comes to leaving a secure spot to search for food.
Perhaps that missed chance of capturing that prey could mean there life... if nothing else is found available soon.
But luckily in captivity we can forcefeed. Although even that isn't guranteed once started.
That same lack of security or timidness is possible with bloods in captivity as well as any other snake. And thats why you see some hatchlings feed from the get go and do well, and others that make your hair fall out.
So, the question.... why? would you use the assumption that a "hide"..... because of its security characteristics, would help in offsetting a huge cage like that. When its been proven in the past that this hasn't been the case,...in most cases anyways.

What i see happening, is a snake in captivity, with weird scents, sounds, and movement, otherwise not experienced in nature in a large cage with a bunch of black boxes with holes in it, expected to eat and follow out its regular activities day in and day out till its big enough to comfortably feel secure. Which is Highly unlikely in my opinion.
And i doubt the fact that they are not "aware" of whats outside that hide box. lets give them a little bit of credit....lol
And if this was the case. It's very likely that it would have already been a known fact for bloods and for snakes in general.

But i would not be surprised that with an elaborate set up like linds mentioned...it could work. but is it realistic? or is it realistic in captivity? should it be realistic in captivity?
And can it be maintained in captivity, realistically?
I would also not be surprised that a well started hatchling could adapt to a large enclosure...assuming it had that sought after "personality".
But I for one, wouldn't try it, risk it , or suggest it. Because i have no proof, experience or have heard about it.
But thats the beauty of keeping these animals, no matter how much we learn, we can learn more.
So, if you want to try it, go ahead and let us know.
But i have no reason to agree with you that they just dont care how big the cage is. That doesn't mean your wrong. I just have years of information from others to back my claim up with! :D

But you never know, everything is possible, just more unlikely in this situation for me to agree.

Snakes are funny creatures..always a surprise. good and bad at times.

Goodluck with your blood! if you ever decide to move it to a big enclosure and it works, tell us how you did it.

Grant

[Grant vg]

Holy long post!
didn't even realize it was THAT long in this little quick reply box...lol

hope its not boring....:D
Good discussion ken, if no one ever questioned others, this would be a very sad and boring place. luckily its not.

gvg

[crazyboy]

grant i was talking about an adult srry.

[emroul]

Thank you so much for all that input, Grant. It really means alot, and since I have 0 years experience with this species, and you have...(well, I'm not sure) but I'm guessing quite a bit more than that :D , I will listen to what you have to say until you give me a reason not to. I really appreciate it.

And thankfully I don't have a blood yet ( I would be a wreck, I'm still researching, hehe..), but if I do end up getting one that is a hatchling, I will be sure to leave it in a small rubbermaid until it grows out of it.

Thanks again everyone. :)
Jennifer

[Invictus]

haha... great follow-up Grant! :)

I'm not personally saying I would do it either with my blood, but mostly because it's just not economical for me with 32 snakes in the house. She's a baby, and is in a 2' rubbermaid with a hide cave that she seldom uses. She has a VERY sought after personality - you can even touch her head, and she doesn't even flinch. But, she's a shy feeder. Won't take food dangled from anything. I have to leave it in her enclosure and wait for her to take it on her time. :)

Nonetheless, I do see your points, but I dunno... it just seems to me that they seek security if they need to, and when they find it, they aren't concerned with life outside their cave. I'd be willing to bet that my baby blood would do just great in a big enclosure, because she doesn't seem to get rattled by ANYTHING... but as I said, it's more economical for me to use a rubbermaid right now. :)

[axwielding1]

Hey Invictus, is your Borgersmai a sumatran, or maylasian? Just curious.
My sumatran borgersmai WAS timid and shy, and tough to get started. But now,5 months later, 1 foot longer, and much heavier, she's quite confident. She does choose either her cool hide, or her warm moist box daily, and utilizes them when needed(or wanted) I think now that she's confident with her size, she would also do well in a large 6ft cage. I don't plan to get one till she's much larger, but think once they've hit their stride, they could probably handle it. She's in a glass tank, and maybe that's why she uses her hides more than yours, in an opaque rubbermade, which is like a hide in itself.(as far as vision is concerned)
Also, I think of snakes in the wild. A hatchling python is a good, and easy meal for many animals, and I would imagine they spend more energy hiding from predators, than looking for prey. That would support the timid/non eating theory. Imagine a blood in a glass tank, who in the wild would be hiding from birds and lizards, and having a 6ft person constantly peering into their little world.. They must be petrified! That assumtion is what led me to wrap her tank with a dark sheet for the first 2 months. Once feeding is regular, they attain some size, and gain trust in their handler, they do very well. I found when I brought mine home, I put her on my chest, and covered her with my hand, she settled down after awhile, and peered out , then began crawling around my hand. After that, she was easy to handle, and didn't mind me doing anything to her. When I bought her, she sat frozen in the guy's hand, then frozen in my hand, and when I handed her back to him, she gave him a nasty defensive bite! She's NEVER bitten me (yet) and has been really .....nice.
Acclimating is the key, as well as husbandry. I'd stick to what's
"Tried and True" Why experiment?
ax.

[Invictus]

Mine's a Malaysian blood. And she's literally the calmest snake I own next to my adult female Kenyan. I just couldn't be happier. :)

As for why experiment, well... isn't that how things are learned? I'm not talking about experimenting with something that is dangerous like "Let's see what happens if I put her in the freezer" lol... but sometimes things like the size of the enclosure, as long as they have secure hides, are really not all that dangerous to test the waters with.

[Linds]

Originally posted by emroul
Oh, and Linds, I'm not too crazy about the whole "natural" look with all that stuff in the enclosure. I'm old fashioned (and maybe a bit lazy..or maybe a neat-freak? LOL)..I like two hides, a water bowl, and paper towels. :D That's how everyone is being housed here, and I love it. (They don't seem to mind it too much either). :D


All mine are housed in functional setups as well, all I was saying was that if you -were- to make a cage that size suitable for a baby, then you wouldn't be able to just put in newspaper and a waterbowl, you would have to cram it full of all sorts of crap to make it a secure enough environment. Waaaay too much work.

[emroul]

I hear ya, Linds. I'll go with rubbermaids first. :D

[axwielding1]

Hey Invictus, that's impressive as hell to hear of a calm Maylasian Blood!! I've heard stories of them being, well, downright nasty!Awesome to hear of a *nice* Maylasian to disprove the common beliefs! As far as dispoving common beliefs, I suppose your right in trying new ways of housing,and keeping these animals. I guess they're like a box of chocolates.... ya never know what you're gonna get!!
Also, I keep my ambient temps at 85, with a gradient from
79-85. I almost always find her on the cool side, sometimes even laying against the glass. She goes to the warm side for an hour here and there, but predominately cool. Should I lower her temp a bit, or just leave it alone. She's doing really well, and utilizes both sides, just seems to prefer cool.
ax.