View Full Version : This affects us all.......
WSPA Canada has decided to go after the reptile pet trade in Canada........
Here is a artical in their last bulletin .......A friend of mine as well as myself wrote letters to them ........attached is her letter and the very scary responce she got ........We all need to be aware of this and write letters to them ........It would seem that we as a community have no idea what we are doing and therefor are no better then the ones who keep dancing bears etc.......I for one am outraged about this whole thing........Take a look :mad:
http://redtailboa.net/gallery/data/65b9eea6e1cc6bb9f0cd2a47751a186f/425_p10468.jpg
http://redtailboa.net/gallery/data/65b9eea6e1cc6bb9f0cd2a47751a186f/425_p10469.jpg
And the emails.........The responces are in [ these ]
Dear Lynne Andrews:
Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding. I’ve inserted my comments into the body of your email below.
I do appreciate you taking the time to write with your views. If you have further comments or questions, I would be pleased to receive them.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Rob Laidlaw
CBiol MIBiol
Projects Manager, Canada
WSPA
World Society for the Protection of Animals
90 Eglinton Ave. East, Suite 960, Toronto, ON M4P 2Y3 CANADA
Tel: (416) 369-0044
Fax: (416) 369-0147
e-mail: laidlaw@wspa.ca
Internet: http://www.wspa.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynne Andrews
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 11:05 AM
To: wspa@wspa.ca
Subject: reptiles
December 13, 2003.
WSPA Canada
Attention: Silia Smith
To Whom It May Concern;
I have been a member of WSPA for many years, and have directed others to the organization.
I think WSAP is a wonderful organization.
[Thank you for your support.]
I am a veterinarian, and practiced in Calgary, Alberta (small animal and exotic practice) for 10 years.
I helped to establish Reptile World, in Drumheller, Alberta, and worked there for approx. two years,
which included caring for some of the animals.
I had a fairly large collection (mostly snakes) in Drumheller, which I managed with my family.
My main goal was breeding. Due to illness, I have had to give up my reptile collection. However,
I still know many people in the field.
And I take exception to your article "Welfare of reptiles ignored far too long", in the fall/winter
magazine. I am awaiting the results of your study with interest.
[We’re currently finalizing the report. I expect to release it sometime during March or April.]
I hope you have looked at the horrific loss of wild reptiles to the skin trade, which has, at least traditionally, accounted for the VAST MAJORITY of wild reptile collecting, and threats to
endangered species.
[The investigation that WSPA Canada has been conducting has been focused on the trade and keeping of reptiles as pets, so we have not examined the trade in reptile skins. You are correct in saying that traditionally, one of the major threats facing many wild reptile populations was harvesting (both legal and illegal) for skins. While that threat remains, collection for the pet trade is also a major threat. Throughout the world, many reptile populations have been significantly reduced by pet trade collectors.]
I hope you have talked to some reptile breeders. While I realize that there are still some people
selling wild-caught animals, there are more breeders selling captive - bred animals.
[Yes, there are many more breeders selling captive animals, but there are still very large numbers of animals coming from the wild. Breeders can satisfy the demand for certain species at certain times, but they are unable to keep up with the overall demand for live reptiles. There are now more than 500 species represented in the pet trade (with 25 –35 species being the most common) and that number grows each year. Only a small number of these species are bred in substantive numbers in captivity.]
Reptiles need to
be healthy and well adjusted to their living conditions to breed viably. The large number of captive
produced babies, which seems to excalate almost yearly, attests to more reptiles in captivity that are well cared for, from the hobbyist who has one pair of breeding cornsnakes, to commercial reptile breeding
businesses, and everything in between.
[While what you are saying may be true for some species, it is not true for all of them. Many animals will breed in clinical conditions that clearly do not satisfy all of their biological and ethological needs. For some, breeding may be triggered by the right set of environmental conditions, while for others it may be that the biological drive to reproduce overrides other factors. As you know, this is not restricted to any one Class of animals. Many animals (humans included) will reproduce in less than optimum conditions. Reproduction is not necessarily an indicator of high welfare.]
Breeding reptiles isn't an easy business, and it doesn't make a lot of money for most breeders. So most
of the people breeding reptiles do it because they love working with reptiles, and are very committed to providing an alternative to wild - caught reptiles.
[There is little evidence that captive breeding has actually hindered or slowed the trade in wild caught reptiles. In fact, while the number of private and commercial reptile breeders has grown, so has the trade in wild caught specimens. I believe breeders, who as businesses must also market their animals, may in fact be helping the market grow, placing even greater stress on wild reptiles. Captive breeding, both small scale and large scale, has also produced numerous opportunities for the laundering of wild caught reptiles.
Even large scale reptile farms that claim to be providing an alternative to wild caught animals often replenish their breeding stock with significant numbers of animals from the wild (often on an ongoing basis). Others claim to be producing captive bred individuals when they are laundering wild caught individuals or removing gravid females from the wild, hatching their eggs in incubators and then dumping the spent females into the pet trade. ]
I hope you have been to some reptile shows... The shows in Calgary (T.A.R.A.S.) stress education and care
of reptiles. Many of these exhibitors are very knowledgeable and eager and willing to answer questions.
[I have been to numerous reptile shows and sales. While many hobbyists talk about reptile conservation and welfare, I haven’t encountered many who are active to any real degree. Most hobbyists seem reluctant to get involved in lobbying for an end to, or even a restriction of, the reptile trade. Since millions of reptiles in the trade, both wild caught and captive bred, suffer and die at the hands of inexperienced keepers each year, it seems that anyone who wants to protect reptiles would try to stop their trade and keeping as pets. Instead, reptile hobbyists typically fight attempts to restrict or eliminate trade, claiming education is the answer to the problems faced by reptiles. Unfortunately, the hobbyist community seems more interested in maintaining their right to keep reptiles for personal pleasure than anything else.
As well, I’m appalled that reptile hobbyists still keep the majority of their reptiles in grossly undersized, clinical conditions (e.g., small aquariums, sweater boxes, Tupperware containers) that do little to address their ethological needs. The way many reptiles are kept today (and the attitudes of many reptile hobbyists) are very similar to the attitudes of early 20th century zoo owners who didn’t understand or recognize that their animals required more than a small space, food and water. ]
I hope you have visited Reptile World in Drumheller, Alberta (owner David Bethel). There, the animals are in great condition, and education is one of the prime objectives, especially with children and schools in Alberta. They also work with the Royal Tyrel Museum of Paleantology on some educational programs.
I hope you have looked at the history of herpetology in Canada. I am most familiar with Alberta's. Twenty years ago, there were only a handful of people collecting reptiles. Even in the last ten years, the number of breeders of reptiles has grown hugely. The number of captive bred animals compared to wild-caught animals offered for sale has risen dramatically. There are a surprising number of people that have been doggedly persisting with education about reptile husbandry, reptiles in the wild, and dispelling myths; campaigning against the capture and sale of wild reptiles; breeding captive reptiles, and influencing the industry in other ways.
[Unfortunately, I have not yet encountered any reptile hobbyists who are lobbying for an end to the import of wild caught animals, the mass-marketing of reptiles by box stores or an end to the keeping of reptiles in biologically-irrelevant, clinical conditions. If you have specific knowledge about hobbyist initiatives in these areas, please let me know. Unfortunately, the only politically active reptile hobbyists I’ve encountered are fighting attempts to curb the reptile trade. They promote entirely unworkable registration and licensing schemes that would do little, if anything, to help reptiles.]
Yes, some wild-caught animals are imported and sold. The number has decreased significantly, and I believe
will continue to do so. Yes, some reptile owners are not responsible, and I have seen some of the results of neglect and ignorance in practice. I think that's the case with all of the pet trade. But the level of education of reptile breeders and owners has risen dramatically over the years, and I believe, will continue to do so.
[During the past 15 years, the trade in wild caught reptiles (and the reptile trade generally) has grown dramatically throughout the world. The number of wild caught reptiles imported into Canada is still significant.
Your comment that some reptile owners are not responsible should be changed to most owners. While there are a few expert hobbyists who leave no stone unturned in their efforts to research the natural lifestyles and captive management of their reptiles, and who dedicate the time, energy and resources to their accommodation and care, these kinds of people are few and far between. Most reptile pet owners pay little attention to satisfying the biological and ethological needs (if they are known) of the reptiles they own. I’ve heard many claims from breeders and hobbyists about how educated reptile owners are, but I have seen little evidence to prove it. In fact, if there has been a widespread program of education (formal or informal), then it has to rank as an unmitigated failure of the highest order. ]
I hope you are aware that a few years ago, several reptile breeders (myself included), and David Bethel (Reptile World), worked with the Calgary Zoo and Alberta Fish and Wildlife to amend laws pertaining to which reptiles could legally be owned in the province of Alberta. This was a major step, involving several different aspects of the industry, to agree on which species would thrive in captive conditions, not be able to live and reproduce in Alberta if they escaped captivity, which ones would not provide health hazards to humans, etc.
[I appreciate any effort you’ve made to help reptiles. Do you have any additional information you could send me regarding the Alberta initiative?]
I am curious why you initiated the study of reptile care in Canada. This industry is much larger in the
United States.
[The WSPA Canada office works in Canada. Other organizations, such as the International Fund for Animal Welfare and the Humane Society of the United States have investigated the trade and keeping of reptiles as pets in the United States.]
Indeed, Canada's herpetological industry has been very influenced by the American one.
The importation of wild-caught animals into the United States far exceeds that of Canada's. I used to know a long-time reptile breeder in California (now unfortunately deceased), and have been amazed at the quantities of animals like Ball Pythons that have come to the U.S.
[You are correct. In fact, the United States is the largest market for wild caught and captive bred reptiles in the world, followed by the European Union and Japan. ]
But most of all, I wonder why WSPA has never looked at the Rattlesnake Roundups that occur in the United
States every year, during which wild rattlesnakes are captured, often using gasoline that affects many other
animals in the environment, kept in appalling conditions (no water, overcrowded, around lots of people), and tortured and killed. The numbers of these rattlesnakes are dwindling - no one knows if they are approaching
endangerment.
[As mentioned above, the WSPA Canada office is conducting this examination of the reptile pet trade. For this reason, its focus is Canada. WSPA will soon be working on several collaborative initiatives with provincial and federal agencies aimed at protecting native Canadian reptiles.]
I hope WSPA has done it's homework. I hope WSPA hasn't misdirected its priorities.
[The reptile pet trade is a rapidly growing, very destructive industry that involves large numbers of animals. That is exactly the kind of practice WSPA should be investigating. I understand the fascination that people have with reptiles, but that doesn’t justify their confinement and suffering for frivolous purposes.]
Many of us are awaiting the results of your investigation.
Yours truly,
Lynne Andrews, D.V.M.
Jeff_Favelle
02-10-04, 01:32 PM
That article started off GREAT! It was totally trashing wild caught reptiles, while saying that most pet reptiles were easy to keep and required minimal care. It got kind of sour after that, but I agree with 95% of that article.
Good read!
But did u read the emails??????? They are implying that they want to shut not only the WC trade but the trade as a whole cuz we dont look after these animals like they should be .........And that we are akin to the old zoos in the way we look after them ?????? I cant believe that they say these things with out a shred of proof .........And seem to have lil or no care for what we have done for education and how far we have come in our husbendry practices .......:mad:
These are the things that make this so scary .......
[There is little evidence that captive breeding has actually hindered or slowed the trade in wild caught reptiles. In fact, while the number of private and commercial reptile breeders has grown, so has the trade in wild caught specimens. I believe breeders, who as businesses must also market their animals, may in fact be helping the market grow, placing even greater stress on wild reptiles. Captive breeding, both small scale and large scale, has also produced numerous opportunities for the laundering of wild caught reptiles.
[I have been to numerous reptile shows and sales. While many hobbyists talk about reptile conservation and welfare, I haven’t encountered many who are active to any real degree. Most hobbyists seem reluctant to get involved in lobbying for an end to, or even a restriction of, the reptile trade. Since millions of reptiles in the trade, both wild caught and captive bred, suffer and die at the hands of inexperienced keepers each year, it seems that anyone who wants to protect reptiles would try to stop their trade and keeping as pets. Instead, reptile hobbyists typically fight attempts to restrict or eliminate trade, claiming education is the answer to the problems faced by reptiles. Unfortunately, the hobbyist community seems more interested in maintaining their right to keep reptiles for personal pleasure than anything else.
As well, I’m appalled that reptile hobbyists still keep the majority of their reptiles in grossly undersized, clinical conditions (e.g., small aquariums, sweater boxes, Tupperware containers) that do little to address their ethological needs. The way many reptiles are kept today (and the attitudes of many reptile hobbyists) are very similar to the attitudes of early 20th century zoo owners who didn’t understand or recognize that their animals required more than a small space, food and water. ]
Unfortunately, I have not yet encountered any reptile hobbyists who are lobbying for an end to the import of wild caught animals, the mass-marketing of reptiles by box stores or an end to the keeping of reptiles in biologically-irrelevant, clinical conditions. If you have specific knowledge about hobbyist initiatives in these areas, please let me know. Unfortunately, the only politically active reptile hobbyists I’ve encountered are fighting attempts to curb the reptile trade. They promote entirely unworkable registration and licensing schemes that would do little, if anything, to help reptiles.]
Your comment that some reptile owners are not responsible should be changed to most owners. While there are a few expert hobbyists who leave no stone unturned in their efforts to research the natural lifestyles and captive management of their reptiles, and who dedicate the time, energy and resources to their accommodation and care, these kinds of people are few and far between. Most reptile pet owners pay little attention to satisfying the biological and ethological needs (if they are known) of the reptiles they own. I’ve heard many claims from breeders and hobbyists about how educated reptile owners are, but I have seen little evidence to prove it. In fact, if there has been a widespread program of education (formal or informal), then it has to rank as an unmitigated failure of the highest order. ]
Rebecca
02-10-04, 01:57 PM
I can't believe what I just read. Why would anyone who loves reptiles lobby to make it illegal to own them?? Rob Laidlaw says that a couple of time in the responce. Also if he believes that most owners don't take care of their reptiles then he should go into every single home that keeps them and look at how they keep them. I for one keep mine quite well, they get what they need and then what they like. And his efforts should be directed at the chain pet stores that are the ones importing most of the wild caught herps and then selling them to who ever wants "that cute little green lizard" I'm fairly new to keeping lizards (only a year or so) and I'm mad at how that articale (sp?) and letter were not only worded but how he seems to look down upon people who keep these wonderful creatures. I agree lots of the people who I know don't know the first thing about herps, but they also don't own any, and don't really want to. Once upon a time all cats, dogs and birds were wild caught, no one did anything about that. I'm sure that alot of the birds still are. I just wish that people who make statments like "Your comment that some reptile owners are not responsible should be changed to most owners. While there are a few expert hobbyists who leave no stone unturned in their efforts to research the natural lifestyles and captive management of their reptiles, and who dedicate the time, energy and resources to their accommodation and care, these kinds of people are few and far between. Most reptile pet owners pay little attention to satisfying the biological and ethological needs (if they are known) of the reptiles they own. I’ve heard many claims from breeders and hobbyists about how educated reptile owners are, but I have seen little evidence to prove it" would actually know what they are talking about. You can't know how owners actually keep their hgerps unless you go and see. Just because you take some poll does not mean it's fact. I never had anyone from WSPA come to my home and check how my lizards are doing. Has anyone here?? Has anyone ever taken an "offical WSPA" poll as to how they are kept?? It's just sad that we might not be able to show our children the wonders of these creatures because of people who think they are helping the herps, but are really not. They should teach people, not put the ones who try to make a difference down.
"biologically-irrelevant, clinical conditions. If you have specific knowledge about hobbyist initiatives in these areas, please let me know."
I'd like to know where the facts that we are keeping reptiles in "Biologically irrelevant clinical conditions" are. They are throwing that statement out, without any facts, no back up, no anything. Its absolutly ridiculous. I'd like to see THEIR facts.
I am wonder what shows, or breeders homes they have been too.
Frankly if they want to ban anything or help any species I think their efforts would be better spent on the GIANT stray cat and dog problem in Canada. Seems since reptiles have become popular all the pet activists have forgotten about this MASSIVE problem that far outweighs ANYTHING in the reptile world, here or in the US.
Marisa
Scales Zoo
02-10-04, 02:28 PM
Do some reading about Rob, I sure have.
He used to work with zoo check, and my opinion is that he doesn't think any reptiles should be in captivity, good zoos included.
About this study they are releasing. Did anyone else get a request about 2 years ago to give information about the hobby and business, for a report someone was going to do for a business class or something? I thought it was a bit odd then, did not reply to the emails - It makes me wonder.
Thanks Annette for bringing this to ssnakess.com. I wouldn't be suprised if we don't have Rob or his buddies as members of the forum (hi Rob) already.
Something is going to need to be done to counteract this movement.
Ryan
I do agree with the fact that Wild collecting can and probably is having a huge effect on some wild populations of certain species, to lump everything into one single cohessive group is just stupid to me. The arctile wasn't too bad, but the emails kinda cheesed me off as far as that goes(implying that all keepers are inept/cold hearted and that all captives are suffering both physically and emotionally(however you quantfy that). The problem of wild caughts(when it gets to the point of hurting wild populations, etc) should be dealt with, but that's all I had to agree with.
Some of these groups(ie PETA/HSUS - he realy lost me once he lumped his organization in with those guys) seem to really have misguided directions as far as aniamls cruelty goes. Like Marisa said, there is a much larger problem not only in this country, but virtually ALL countries as far as overpopulations of dogs/cats etc. that really should be addressed before attacking what is still really a very small niche market in reptiles. They seem to chase after every little issue, probably to give the illusion that they accomplish anything in order to attract members, when they don't seem to accomplish much at all.
Interesting anyways, thanks for the heads-up...
Well one of the things that really bothers me is that they arent even looking at the skin and meat trade .......These are where the mass majority of the WC herps go ........The pet trade is such a small part of it .....Dont get me wrong ......I wouldnt have to much to say about them shutting down the WC pet trade ......But when they imply that we dont know what we are doing and have nothing to back it up is just unreal ......Where are the studies they have done on this ?????? Where is all the proof to make such claims against us ??????
Dark_Angel_25
02-10-04, 02:56 PM
I think this is infuriating.. EVERY ANIMAL in the pet trade can end up with unknowledgeable owners.. this is the fault of the pet stores, they are also mainly the ones who bring in wild caught animals... it makes no sense why everyone should suffer for a few.
I do agree with most of the article.. but I think they are going about it the wrong way. what they are headed for is a MASSIVE underground reptile industry, where people will still buy CB CBB and sell trade them 'underground'. Personally, NO ONE is going to take my babies away from me, I don't care what the costs are.
They need to show as much proof as they are asking for, they need to give a little if they expect this to work, and so far it just seems to be akin to a closeminded incorporation going after the little guy with no back up.
They have no proof. For one simple reason....there is no proof that the way most zoo's and reptile keepers keep their animals is wrong.
I'd like not only to see proof, but apparently they know plenty more about captive husbandry than we do! I wish they would share this husbandry information that would make us realize how "cruel" we are with the rest of us.
Marisa
Thats scary, and the scary part is, it's almost all true! I would hate to lose my right to keep these animals but I do agree that something has to be done to presearve wild reptiles and to help keepers learn to do so properly, I think a complete reptile ban is a little drastick, In my opinion they should be focusing more on the wild collection of the animals and maybe into some more education for vets, Herp societys and Organizations.....
Im anxious to see the outcome of the report..
Dark_Angel_25
02-10-04, 03:09 PM
If they want to concentrate on anything, IMO they should be working on stopping the import of WC specimens. maybe get a little stricter like they do with Poachers... I mean they are complaining about EC populations dwindling... and they don't WANT to focus on the skin trade and that kind of thing, so why not go after the enterprises/individuals that are supporting/carrying out the WC problem? This SHOULD be where the focus lies... because like someone mentioned, unless they tell me what I am doing wrong, and show proof that what the majority of us are doing wrong, and even then, (cause mistakes can be corrected) this is just a crock of bull caca.
man, I am so steamed about this... freaking people who know nothing about something having to get into everyones business, and not take care of the REAL problem. someone should send this Bozo the link to this site, and have them spend a day here to see how we as a community are helping the less knowledgeable to be good care givers. and maybe by doing that they can go after the people who just choose to not take the 'right' advice and prosecute them instead of generalising us all into one category....
We all need to write letters........And demand that they show us proof ....... But what I am wondering is........If the are just starting with Canada cuz we are so new compaired to the rest of the world in this and if they are .....Are they planning on hitting the states next if the succeed here.......
Big Mike
02-10-04, 03:17 PM
It seems to me that Rob's comments were simply argumentative. He states a supposed problem...gets a contrary response...and then says "ya well, it's still a problem" with no facts (or even anything smart to say) to back it up.
This is just a theory but maybe he just giving himself something to do so that he can justify his WSPA pay cheque.
Dark_Angel_25
02-10-04, 03:18 PM
well I think someone should post the e-mail address (seeing as it would be on their website it should be allowed) so we can e-mail the same person. and I agree that we should all speak up, and make sure we are heard. this isn't something that we should take for granted as ' ah, no big deal, they say they are doing it but they won't...' why take the chance... so please, post the e-mail addy so we can jump on this too.. and please if you do write, please lets keep it professional... remember we need to be taken seriously..
Projects Manager, Canada
WSPA
World Society for the Protection of Animals
90 Eglinton Ave. East, Suite 960, Toronto, ON M4P 2Y3 CANADA
Tel: (416) 369-0044
Fax: (416) 369-0147
e-mail: laidlaw@wspa.ca
Internet: http://www.wspa.ca
Its in the top post ......
Grant vg
02-10-04, 03:20 PM
I would have to agree with Jeff, in that i agree with 95% of that article and can definately see where his view is comming from in his reply to your email.
Now if anyone here (with a good sense of husbandry and all around knowledge concerning reptiles) has ever worked in a pet store...KNOWS how many people come in daily who know absolutely nothing about reptiles but either already keep reptiles or plan to buy one or more without asking enough questions to qualify them as a "good keeper".
Now, within the past couple of months while working at Reptile Headquaters. i have witnessed the following.
1. Box turtles being kept in aquariums with mostly water up to a foot deep in one end of the tank wondering why the shell is soft.
2. multiple WC iguanas with being keptin less then adequate conditions with tails bitten off resulting in secondary infections.
3. The ever so popular burms being purchased and at 6 months being kept in a 36" inch tank...now to most, you would think this size of tank would be fairly cramped for a 6 month old burm. However, by the description of the owner, this burm was no larger then a neonate. so either it is severely underfed. or it is not 6 months of age.
either way, they did not have a clue of the size potential or care requirements.
4. ball pythons the size of a well started 6 month old , but 3 years of age...
5. 18+ inch bearded dragon kept in the smallest tank possible. without a place to retreat from its overhead heat lamp. with a burn on its back. the father brought it in as the daughter had went to college and he had no clue what to do with it.
we gladly took it. Re established it. and found it a good home.
Now all of these animals were purchased from pet shops around the GTA. There was never any reason for me to believe that the store gave them GOOD information on how to keep them properly, nor was there any indication that the owner did much to educate themselves.
And these are the two groups that FUEL this industry. Pet shops and there inexperienced buyers.
I obviously have no statistics to back up this claim, but i think many can agree that as far as amounts of transactions go....there are FAR more pet shop transactions then within our community or any other online community.
Sure we spend the big bucks for overpriced morphs, but its less often and outweighed by the amount of transactions that the bigger store chains recieve on a busy saturday and sunday afternoon.
We have to be pretty naive to think that the majority of reptile owners in Canada are on this site. It would be nice if it was the truth, but its not. And the scary thing is, regardless of whether WSPA has actually surveyed people to back up these claims, if they did indeed have to, to get laws put in place....im afraid that they might just come up with the percentages they need.
The WC problem is a big one for them. Infact its a big problem for all of us.
And a great weight falls on the shoulders of the thousands of pet shops around the globe. But not exclusively. There are plenty BIG breeders out there importing normal balls, bloods, etc... to fill customer needs, fill up webspace if they had a bad year, or just to be able to have normals available while they concentrate on the higher end stuff as far as captive breeding goes....
then you have your short-lived importer who moves a million wc balls quickly, makes there money, and gets out.
Then theres us, i am guilty of bying a known WC in the past. And im sure there are others.
So there is not any one group to blame.
And i can see where WSPA is comming from. I dont neccessarily agree with the end result they are trying to attain, but they do have some points that could definately be proven down the road.
The thing i dont like is that many of these organizations fail to comprehend or perhaps intentionally ignore all the positive points Nett has mentioned like the advances in husbandry and knowledge of the requirements for these animals.
This is where it REAALLY bothers me and i have a hard time comming up with ideas of how to defend our hobby against there claims.
I can tell you one thing ive been noticing lately.... We dont really have a power house to compete with WSPA...we have no organization.
What i see is a very large community of people sub divided into there own little reptile clubs/cliques across the country, some areas without any reptile clubs, some clubs having beef with others, etc..
Everyones doin there OWN thing.... instead of everyone doing ONE thing. Which should be educatiing anyone and everyone, working towards one common goal, which should be education and awareness....
Has Anyone ever told there friends (non-herpers) that they're apart of a "reptile club" and got a weird look?.... perhaps a chuckle.... with images of a bunch of 4-eyed pre-pubescent teens standing around looking at there snakes scales with magnifying glasses....
the point im trying to make is that we have no voice, we are unknown. many people dont even know reptile keeping exists in communities... and its about time we establish reptile-regional groups under one name with one goal...This way we can take our own poles... come up with our own facts...with limitless boundaries...
Im just not sure we have what it takes...
Sorry about the long post and perhaps differing views..but thats what makes these boards useful.
gvg
Dark_Angel_25
02-10-04, 03:22 PM
as for all the "we are only in canada crap, then why is this on their website???
QUOTE:
Question #2:
What are WSPA's aims?
WSPA aims to promote the protection of animals, to prevent cruelty to animals, and to relieve animal suffering in every part of the world.
WSPA also aims to promote humane education programmes to encourage respect for animals and responsible stewardship, and the establishment of laws and enforcement structures that will provide adequate legal protection for animals.
Everypart of the world my a$$... if that were true then he wouldn't blow off the questions about the US etc...
Grant vg
02-10-04, 03:30 PM
I believe the reason why he was blowing off the US in his emails is that they have there own division by my knowledge, So he is only speaking on behalf of Canada's situation.
Dont think for a second that the US WSPA ...ISN"T working on this. ITs just a lot more complicated taking away there snakes, because of there laws and power in numbers.
But it makes perfect sense to attack canada if you think about it.
were smaller and weaker...in every aspect concerning the reptile industry. Take us over and it will be alot easier to take them over....Its the power of "PRECEDENT"
the point im trying to make is that we have no voice, we are unknown. many people dont even know reptile keeping exists in communities... and its about time we establish reptile-regional groups under one name with one goal...This way we can take our own poles... come up with our own facts...with limitless boundaries...
I would have to agree ......We dont have one voice and we need one, it would seem, if we have any hope in dealing with these so called animal rights groups.......I have been looking into starting a Canadain Breeders Association for awhile now ........I guess I better really start putting the pieces together.......
Kinda wonder what they will do with all the herps in Canada if they succeed??????
Grant vg
02-10-04, 03:36 PM
It would be nice to say i am a member of........
WORRK - World Organization for Rights of Reptile Keepers???
In other words worrrrrrrrk our A$$ off to keep our reptiles ...anyone?
Originally posted by Grant vg
I believe the reason why he was blowing off the US in his emails is that they have there own division by my knowledge, So he is only speaking on behalf of Canada's situation.
Dont think for a second that the US WSPA ...ISN"T working on this. ITs just a lot more complicated taking away there snakes, because of there laws and power in numbers.
But it makes perfect sense to attack canada if you think about it.
were smaller and weaker...in every aspect concerning the reptile industry. Take us over and it will be alot easier to take them over....Its the power of "PRECEDENT"
I know ......... Go after us 1st .......Set the precedent here .....Then go after the big fish ........ That is why we need to voice our points as one voice in a professional manner ...... I really think it all starts with us ....... And hopefully it will end here as well .....If we do it right ......
If WSPA was smart, they'd embrace the herp communities and work with them to stomp out WC specimens. With the exception of the rarer breeds of snakes, there are more than enough CB snakes in Canada to support the market. Besides if they stop WC importx the reptile stock here are somewhat limited, their price remains relatively high, leaving alot of impulse buys at pet stores out of the picture. ;)
Grant vg
02-10-04, 03:43 PM
Nett,
The only thing i can see that might backlash is the "breeders" in that name if it was chosen to be Canada's authority.
I say this because it can easily be turned from a Breeder = Captive bred animals lessening the strain on Wild populations.....which is how we view it...
To Breeders = money
Its always good to stay away from anything that can relate back to money concerning any "ethical" issue..... even more so with wildlife....
Is that understandable?
It just crossed my mind after reading it and thinking about it for a minute....
a suggestion nonetheless.....:)
Grant vg
02-10-04, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by JonD
If WSPA was smart, they'd embrace the herp communities and work with them to stomp out WC specimens. With the exception of the rarer breeds of snakes, there are more than enough CB snakes in Canada to support the market. Besides if they are the reptiles are somewhat limited, their price remains relatively high, leaving alot of impulse buys at pet stores out of the picture. ;)
Unfortunately, they dont agree with keeping reptiles in captivity at all..... Reducing the WC strain still wont fix there problem with our husbandry practices...or should i say, the husbandry of the less informed here in Canada.
gonesnakee
02-10-04, 03:47 PM
Very disheartening indeed to think these guys are supposed to be on our side. In reguards to the whole meat/skin thing their industry has much more money therefore power than us herpers so they choose to attack us little guys first. I for one would love to see the documented proof of their slanderous claims. Their hearts in the right place, but their heads are stuck up their butts still. I think they should concentrate their efforts on the banning of WCs & more importantly dealing with the exceedingly increasing problems concerning domesticated animals such as Cats & Dogs. Just how many C & D's are put down even on a daily basis, not because they are unhealthy, but just because they are unwanted. I would like to see these #'s referenced againest the claims againest Herpers. These WSPA people seem more content just to wipe out the pet trade in general rather than put the proper time & effort in to regulate it as it should be. No more Pet trade, no more problem, ya that will work NOT! I wonder if Lowell managed to get a Rocket Launcher yet. I know where the crosshairs should be sitting LOL (even though it ain't funny at all, sigh!) Mark
Grant you are right about organizing. If the community comes together, we in turn get other organizations to join us and it gives us one big voice!! Cheers to the power of assembly!!;)
Grant vg
02-10-04, 03:55 PM
Also,
If you couldn't tell from my previous posts....
Its important not to meet resistence with resistence...
We have to first REALLY think about EVERYTHING WSPA is saying....and acknowledge that some of it MAY be true.
Regardless of whether we would like it to be true or not.
Then, Not work AGAINST it or DENY it, but to FIX it.
By going about things this way, not only does it get them off our backs and make them less likely to throw our attemps back in our face, it ALSO betters the hobby as a WHOLE ....in my opinion.
What about
crebo- Canadian Reptile, Enthusiast and Breeders Organization
:D
Originally posted by Grant vg
Also,
If you couldn't tell from my previous posts....
Its important not to meet resistence with resistence...
We have to first REALLY think about EVERYTHING WSPA is saying....and acknowledge that some of it MAY be true.
Regardless of whether we would like it to be true or not.
Then, Not work AGAINST it or DENY it, but to FIX it.
By going about things this way, not only does it get them off our backs and make them less likely to throw our attemps back in our face, it ALSO betters the hobby as a WHOLE ....in my opinion.
I agree.......And yes they do make some good points ......And if our voice was mixed with others we may have some inpact on what they would like to see happen ......
meow_mix450
02-10-04, 07:25 PM
ok a lot of the it is true, but Captive breeding has been happening a lot, the reason why we still have WC, is cause pet stores are still willing to buy it! To stop WC reptiles, they must first stop the buyers!
They mentioned green igunna's and R.E.S turtles, well duh......there are a lot of those everywhere, cause people over breed them, and now we got people that doesnt want to take care of the poor thing anymore, so they give it to people like reptila or a friend that knows nothing about them. People buy baby R.E.S turtles and think awww its cute, i think im gonna get it. So they get it, and they grow into adults, this is when people stop thinking there cute, and throws them in a lake.
They have to be resonable about this whole thing, and think of the people that are able to keep these reptiles. About 80% of the people here in the site, are able to keep reptiles. A lot of "new people" come here and ask questions, and we are educating them. The reason why a lot of reptiles, become unwanted is cause they dont know what is up next for them. But i think they should be reasonable
Meow
Siretsap
02-10-04, 07:52 PM
It isn't only because of the pet stores that wild caught reptiles is still around. Why are there always new morphs coming in the states, most of the times, it's because the carrier of this defective genes is a wild caught animal. There will always be breeders that will give big money for new morphs (even if the animal is wild caught).
Plus, imagine if there were no more wild caught reptiles, imagine 30 years down the road, or maybe even 25 years from now, I am pretty sure inbreeding will have a big effect on these animals.
You need the different blood strains.
And if you look at it space wise, I do not know anyone who will give a appropriate size enclosure to a reptile. Yes it's not necessary for them to have a big space, and yes some reptiles will spend their whole life time in an area the size of a room in the wild. But take monitors for example, they travel big distances in the wild and no one here would be able to offer them that wide of an area (would be kinda bad to try and find him after).
But I also see benefical things about this.
If people do things correctly, we could be able to help certain reptile populations that are in danger. But at the moment, it is true the market is more on the selling point and not preservation.
Also, I doubt a reptile will have a better health in the wild than in captivity (excluding the keepers who don't give the proper care for the reptiles). In captivity, I am sure we feed them much more than they would eat in the wild. and most of the cbb specimens are free of parasites which can give them a longer life span.
We need to be careful on what we do with our reptiles. Most of us keep them in appropriate conditions but it is always the few that don't that will catch the media's eye...
meow_mix450
02-10-04, 08:06 PM
These people shouldnt be aiming at reptiles period, aim at ANIAML ABUSE! stray dogs, cats, turtles that arnt suppose to be in our lakes.
Meow
Ryan and Katie
02-10-04, 09:05 PM
What are we going to do when a vast majority of the natural habitat that the animals we keep disapears and we are disallowed to keep and propagate these animals. They go extinct.... This habitat distruction is happening all over the globe and it is increasing. Without the large amounts of breeders learning new ways to successfully breed and care for these reptiles I fear that in a few decades we will lose many important species to this planet. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!
I believe that captive breeding is essential knowledge that will save many animals from the fate of extinction. Why don't we go after the real problem - Exon, walmart, haliburton, ect... These Billion dollar corporations are kicking the planets a** and pose the largest danger to our herps not us keeping a pet ball python.....
Wow! You missed the big picture WSPA !!!!!!
We don't like to rant much but the ignorance shown by WSPA is disconcerting....
I have to aggree with Ryan and Katie. With the rate the habitat is disappearing there won't be any wild caught.
As for RES, I'm doubting there are many wild caught turtles imported legaly into canada, you need a permit to bring them in and they won't give permits for the pet trade.
As for protection of native species, many provices protect delicate native species, such as pygmy rattlers in ontario.
I think we have a bigger problem with freeroaming cats and dogs.
One of the biggest problem I see out there , not just with groups like WSPA and PETA , is that the whole herp world is misunderstood ......Herps have a bad rep . and so do their keepers......We are not going to change that by banning herp keeping .....The only way is through education ......The powers that be refuse to see that we have made leaps and bounds in education as well as keeping ......They seem to be looking at the few neg. things and not all the positive things that we have done over the years.......What really kills me is that these people honestly think that reptiles breed like crazy under the worst conditions .........LOL .......This in itself shows how little they do know about keeping and breeding reptiles......It seems that they have done nothing in the way of research and have nothing to back up these claims ........Hopefully when ever this report comes out it will give us more info on just what they think we are doing so wrong ........Then we can fully respond with facts and figures of our own .......
And the more people that write letters to them (professionally) and the more we let them know that this is not acceptable we might be able to get them to back down ......
Swampwalker
02-11-04, 01:39 AM
As for protection of native species, many provices protect delicate native species, such as pygmy rattlers in ontario.
huh?? pygmy rattlers in Ontario???
Jeff_Favelle
02-11-04, 02:15 AM
But did u read the emails??????? They are implying that they want to shut not only the WC trade but the trade as a whole cuz we dont look after these animals like they should be .........And that we are akin to the old zoos in the way we look after them ?????? I cant believe that they say these things with out a shred of proof .........And seem to have lil or no care for what we have done for education and how far we have come in our husbendry practices .......
Ha ha, yeah, I only read the article! The emails are a different story, I agree!
My main concern is not what they, or PETA or any of the other psycho groups think. Their minds won't change. Its ingrained. My concern is what the average shmoe thinks. What is going through the average person's head when he or she hears about reptiles as pets? That's what is the big question hear. Because whatever they think, will have an impact. Same with what the politicians think. Politicians probably aren't really concerned with animal welfare. They are concerned about PEOPLE who are concerned about animal welfare. They are concerned about money, and they are concerned about being in office as long as possible.
I don't know. I totally agree with Annette though. Writing professional-style letters to whomever concerned is a great idea. I think we should all take the time to write a few well-though out words down.
Cheers fellow herpers!
Scales Zoo
02-11-04, 11:05 AM
I'd urge some people to go to google and type in Rob Laidlaw reptile. His propoganda has been around for years, however he is accelerating the pace at which he is getting his twisted message out there.
Ryan
Well Scales Zoo I must thank you for getting my anger level at ten before breakfast this morning. That guys stuff is just insane!
From the website WSPA (link to article: http://www.wspa.ca/press/2001/1001/301001_1.html )
"Laidlaw notes that both the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta and Health Canada advise against children under the age of 5 having direct or indirect contact with reptiles of any kind. As many reptile-associated Salmonella infections involve serious complications, including septicemia and meningitis, the two agencies go as far as to state that reptiles should not be kept in the home with children aged less than one year."
I don't see how this is a reason on their list of why some snakes and reptiles should be banned. Some of us don't have children, thanks.
Another qoute from another article on WSPA website...link to article: http://www.wspa.ca/reptiles/reports/zoonoses/report_stressanddisease.html
"Excepting physical contact during basking, mating and territorial disputes, mutual touching is not noted to be a large part of an iguana's usual communications. So, for the captive iguana, the human touch may be perceived as anything from an attack to a minor annoyance."
Yeah I guess thats why when I open Roxy's (my 7 year old Green Iguana) cage and walk away, she comes out on her own and follows us out to the living room to sit on the couch and watch cars drive by. I geuss she feels constantly under threat during this. Yeah must be why she comes out on her own. Uh huh.
The thoughts and "facts" expressed in the reading I did this morning are scary. Personally I think we need to get together a group much like Grant VG suggested. At the very LEAST a group dedicated to responding to these articles and seding their writings to all people involved in this....the WSPA, the government, etc. If they are being allowed to voice their mostly wrong and non thought out opinions, we should have our own constant supply of information challanging theirs which is constantly sent out to any people involved.
Marisa
I love this as well...link to full article: http://www.wspa.ca/reptiles/reports/zoonoses/report_conclusions.html
"A dramatic reduction in cases of reptile-associated salmonellosis and other reptile-related diseases, can only be achieved when contact between reptiles and humans is substantially reduced or eliminated. Until that time, to reduce the possibility of disease transmission, anyone who physically contacts reptiles, or objects and surfaces that have been contacted by reptiles, should follow the guidelines set out by the Centers for Disease Control. As well, those persons identified as being particularly at risk should avoid all contact with reptiles. However, no amount of advice of this type, will protect the public from some indirect sources of infection, such as a reptile-keeper visiting a household, or through intermediary sources with which a carrier reptile or its keeper have had contact."
O.k. so basically they are saying that they have proof of a case of a reptile owner visiting someone else, and giving them salmonella? Where are their facts? Has this ever even happened! Or are they just spouting this off to further their cause. Are they even AWARE that chicken carries this and is in our homes RAW almost everyday? Do they even know that more children get salmonella from DOG TOYS laying around (such as bones) than they do reptiles?
They are ignoring facts. Its like me saying well cars are really dangerous but so are scooters so lets go after them even thought the injuries and cases are insanly minor in comparision.
Marisa
This was posted on another forum about this .......Some ideas and well thought out actions we can take .......
-New post-
I wrote a response to this that the private messaging system ate...
Bottom line is, the article is a load of lies, propaganda and outright crap that's intended to appeal to people who don't know any better and form a kind of foot in the door legislation that can later be expanded to meet the rabid anti-human ideals of these groups. Their goal is not better treatment for animals, it's not even no reptilian pets... it's no pets. No animals eaten as food and no service animals used. Ever.
Couple points, kinda quickly...
CITES pays very close attention to species collection numbers and the conditions the animals are shipped in, their website has a great many studies and papers which support the idea that animals are actually being treated well throughout the entire process. Yes, there are deaths and yes sometimes it has health effects but these are the minority, not the majority when it comes to situations surrounding exportation of fauna. Further, the countries most responsible for exportation into the pet trade have realized that they have a valuable sustainable resource on their hands and it has dramatically changed collection methods and numbers. When battaling anti-pet activists, be sure to have the most up to date numbers and facts possible, since most of what they use as a base for their propaganda comes from the somewhat naive times prior to regulation of international animal trade.
In order to fight them, grouping together with other herpers works well but you'll need additional support. Find someone working for Canadian fish and wildlife or the department of natural resources (whatever it might be called up there) who agrees with your cause and can act as a spokesperson... They may not be as credible as a genuine research biologist but voters trust uniforms. As sad as it is to say, make sure the person acting as a spokesperson for the group when it comes to media relations is clean cut, well spoken and somewhat attractive- it's perhaps not the best side of human nature but people don't listen to trolls (Which is why I never got to go on TV). When it comes to a written campaign, same thing goes... let the articulate people do the footwork and anyone who's not great at it can simply sign their name. Tirades and anger don't appeal to the masses in situations like this.
Get information on the groups you're opposing... In the United States, non-profits are legally obligated to make their financial records public. It is through this that PETA lost a lot of support, when they were proven to have been supporting eco-terrorism and nobody could figure out where the money to help animals actually was (But the high ranking leaders sure did have fat salaries).
Locate some quotes from the oppositions leadership which prove that they are psycotics... Anything having to do with rabid veganism or how people shouldn't own dogs or how a human child has less right to live than an animal usually works. A few such quotes were shown to General Mills executives and caused them to pull the HSUS calender that they had been including with some cerals as a prompotional campaign.
Back up your position with biology and be sure to combat bambi style stereotypes. Reptiles have pretty simple brains, they're not capable of much when it comes to thoughts or feelings other than hunger or fear, it's all stimulus leading to genetically ingrained responses. Prove this to be true and they'll be forced to abandon the arguments about environmental enrichment... A leopard gecko is not and never will be close to a chimpanzee or a dolphin.
Associate yourself with other legitimate animal groups, be they animal welfare or animal hobbiests. By doing so on a local level you can prevent those small bills and legislatiove attempts to restrict ownership... It's all too easy for a bill to be passed which bans venomous snakes and constrictors over fifteen feet long. Once it's on the books, it can easily be changed to read all snakes over ten feet... then six... then all snakes... then all reptiles... Then all exotics. If there's a local aquarium society or some parrot fanciers or hamster lovers, get them on your side before everything hits the fan and you increase your voter base when and if it comes to that point.
Collect hard numbers, the number of people who die every year from reptile related injury or illness (this is another attack point for PETA types) is much lower than the number killed by dogs or horses. Similarly, there are more abused and abandoned housecats than there are all exotics lumped together in a group... If there is some degree of success in getting legislation up for review surrounding abused reptiles, demand that legislators tack house cat permit requirements of a few hundred bucks a year onto the bill and watch it sink in flames.
Local legislators make great friends. If something doesn't pass inside city limits, it frequently won't pass inside a county or a state (or Providence).
Hit every resource you can on a national and international level for support, internet forums are fast becoming a great way to do so... Hit other big sites (I know that Nett is more active on many than I am) like ssnakess.com (especially, considering the number of active canuks), Kingsnake (it might get deleted, Melissa Kaplan is a moderator there and she's allied with these groups), Fauna and any others you can think of... Make fliers, hit herp and pet related shows and symposiums and generally get down and dirty with your own propaganda campaign, but make sure yours is truthful.
Oh yeah.... this kind of group has been active in the United States for decades, they've been getting steadily smarter about how they conduct themselves and how they approach things... Gotta keep a sharp eye out for that proposed legilslation which bans even a single species, it's not always the obvious "Make eating cows illegal" that it was in the past.
Incidentally...
Rob Laidlaw, the author of the article, has many other articles online, which I have spent an entertaining morning reading... He doesn't like zoos, people keeping pets, anyone eating meat, insulin production, medical research, antivenin production, gasoline powered cars, taking potentially medicinally useful plants out of the wild or apparantly human beings in general.
http://www.wspa.ca/press/2001/1001/301001_1.html
This one was interesting
http://www.wspa.ca/reptiles/reports...ses/report.html
This one is completely composed of lies about salmonella.
A few other psycotic anti-animal sites have him listed, praising him for his work in closing zoos and a few mentioned that he's been hard at work trying to close down the reptile industry, this is not an objective report from an individual uninvolved... it's a clear and direct threat from an individual who is taking his moral views and trying to make them law.
The only credentials I've been able to find are all related to the guy's qualifications in mammilian biology... basically... he doesn't know his *** from a hole in the ground when it comes to herpetology.
Ooh... here's a good one where other Canadians realized that Laidlaw was a psycotic... http://www.canadafreepress.com/arch...02/tgr71502.htm
Basically it sounds a bit mixed... he's got a bad history of this kind inflamatory nonsense that's reccognized by the assorted governmental agencies, but he's also apparantly seen by a lot of people as being educated and somehow trustworthy... It might be a difficult fight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seamus Haley
Retic chic
02-11-04, 02:37 PM
People like Rob Laidlaw and his followers should have their heads examined. It disgusts me to no end to think that someone could be so stupid and live this long. He has probably reproduced, too.
Imagine what an asset he would be to humanity if he were to concentrate his efforts on something more important. His crusades have been successful in spite of the stupidity that drives them. If he were to address the school system, the child welfare, lack of affordable housing, unemployment rates, drug abuse and prostitution with the same zeal, our country might be in a better place.
Dont get me wrong - I love animals as much as the next guy (right next to the mashed potatoes, preferably) but I am wiling to shoot, kill, skin, gut and cut up and eat deer, fish, beef, chicken and such. I grew up in a no nonsense farming/ranching community where people lived off the land, and are good custodians of the land and livestock. We are practical people, with values different from 'city folk'.
Certainly there is consideration for the wild caught pet trade, but I think it is best left to the people with expertise in the hobby and indusrty to promote the regulation of such, rather than someone with more opinions than experience. We, as reptile and exotic enthusiasts need to work together to keep poeople like Laidlaw from capitalizing on the publicity of his crusades. The origin of the animal is not as important as where it ends up, and as captive breeders, I think we are making headway in changing this .
When people get all upset over the choices of pets we keep, I wonder how closely they really look at the world around them. Everywhere there is child poverty, sexual abuse and neglect. It does not matter if we are rich or poor, smart or stupid, this is serious stuff happening in our own back yards.
Lets worry about our children and fellow man first, and when we have solved the major issues surrounding humanity, and we are not exhausted with the effort, lets throw ourselves headlong into the petty crap! When we are as concerned for the homeless man dying in the street, as we are for the reptiles and animals people choose to keep, I might understand the mentality (or lack thereof) behind this type of crusade.
Sheila
MouseKilla
02-11-04, 04:43 PM
I don't understand the philosophy of these animal rights nut cases. They seem to not just put the lives of animals on the same level as those of humans but they may even place a higher value on the lives of animals for some reason. That just boggles the mind.
I'm all for stopping importation or collection of threatened or endangered species and preserving habitat but I must admit that my ecological concerns only extend as far as it effects human life. In other words I think we have to take care of the earth because if we don't we will be killing ourselves.
Humans are in a unique position to either maintain and preserve the planet or exploit and destroy it. I believe that this means we have the responsibility to ourselves and future generations of people to not let greed lead to the death of animal populations and eventually ourselves. Along with this huge responsibility I believe comes the right to alter nature for our own ends whether that means farming for food or making money in the animal trade to feed ourselves and our families.
There are enough people in the world that are being kept in inhumane conditions without pondering how "happy" an animal with a brain the size of a sunflower seed may be in a Rubbermaid. Why don't you ask the snake dickhead? Let me know when he answers.
I really hope there are some of these losers on here spying so they can take the message back to their friends to grow up and get a real job, do something useful with your misdirected passion and piss off.
Originally posted by Swampwalker
huh?? pygmy rattlers in Ontario???
Yes, the eastern massasauga rattler (Sistrurus catenatus) is a pygmy rattler. It's native range includes ontario along with north eastern usa.
Slannesh
02-11-04, 05:34 PM
While I agree with many of the points raised in the article itself the response to the email I find pretty disturbing.
Personally i'm against wild caught animals going to consumers, but I do see the need for new bloodlines to be introduced from time to time into captive breeding stock.
I would be totally willing to help out with an organization dedicated to having the opinions and views of responsible and concerned keepers and breeders heard and defended.
I find it sort of sad that a lot of the goals these organizations set for themselves are good ones, (I mean who wouldn't want laws passed that looked out for the general welfare of our animals and made sure there were things you could to to stop people from abusing them?) But they go too far with some of their other ideals. (Eat all the veggies you want, Personally I like steak from time to time and no one is going to tell me i'm not allowed to)
But anyhow, point being... I'm concerned enough to do something about it. Nett, would you mind contacting me privately and we can go from there?
You know what's funny? I haven't had salmonella since i've gotten reptiles. I did get it quite often when I worked at mc donalds.
Scales Zoo
02-11-04, 05:47 PM
There was once a Canadian group formed to help educate against the smear campaigns of others, and prevent reptile bans. It was called CROC (Canadian Reptile Owners Coalition). For a few reasons, the group kind of quit before it really started.
Anyways, I think this is an important topic that should be addressed at each and every provincial reptile club.
As already said, Rob makes a few good points in his article. Also already said, we should acknowledge the good parts of what they say, so maybe they will listen when we try and prove the point that reptiles should not be banned as pets.
The wildcaught trade, as it presently sits is sad in my opinion. The conditions of many petstore reptile departments are not what I'd want the activists to think is the norm.
There is an ugly agenda which is partially hidden from that article. The time to prepare a defense to the impending attack is now. My gut feeling tells me that his report is not going to portray the beneficial aspects of our hobby, and if we don't do anything, that is the only thing the media is going to see.
Ryan
I honestly think a "package" of sorts written by the right people would do some good for starters..... which includes...statistics on both reptiles and other very common mammal pets...statistics on salmonella and all the sources you can get it from.....captive care methods described by large scale breeders, small breeders, and your everyday keeper....things captive husbandry has helped us understand in the past ten years that we could probably not have learned otherwise....facts why snakes who are housed in what is commonly accepted as good husbandry are living healthy successful lives...etc. Maybe even a petition signed by reptile keepers from various shows around Canada.... Just a package of amazing information qouted and added to by many many sources which can be sent to herp groups, animal rights activists, government agencies, etc. So they know we have a voice and are ready to challange their bad information.
Marisa
Invictus
02-11-04, 07:18 PM
K, I haven't read all of the posts here, so forgive me if I repeat something that someone already posted.
DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME writing to this Rob moron or the fascist idiots at the WSPA. Write to your Member of Parliament and let them know that fanatics banning our beloved pets will NOT be tolerated, and that you do not support any politician who votes to ban reptiles based on the completely flawed information that the WSPA is gathering to further their cause.
Nett, we need to sit down and plan a real course of action here, maybe at the next TARAS board meeting. I want to get a very clear message to the politicians in Ottawa that Rob Laidlaw is nothing more than a fanatic, and that his "study" is nothing more than gathering the information he WANTS to gather in order to further his cause.
I do see this as being a fundamental responsibility of TARAS, and I sincerely hope you agree. I'm sure that if we, and the other board members put our heads together, we can put through a viable plan to get this fanatic shut down.
Invictus
02-11-04, 07:19 PM
Ryan - Maybe resurrecting CROC isn't a bad idea. I'd be up for that. Would you?
Classic
02-11-04, 08:00 PM
Scales Zoo: Quote: "The wildcaught trade, as it presently sits is sad in my opinion. The conditions of many petstore reptile departments are not what I'd want the activists to think is the norm".
Good point Rob.
A good start is and i'm sure many others as do is, tell a pet department that their animals are being kept in sub-standard conditions.If their practices are incorrect, give them sugestions on how to fix the problem. I have gone so far as to call a district office when short-falls have been ignored and not corrected. It wasn't long after, it was fixed. We are an important client of the pet stores. If we speak, they will listen. They must be told that their improper husbandry practices are imitated by the unsure new hobbiest.
It is our responsibility as a community to uphold our hobby. We can make a difference. You just need to have a say if you see something wrong.
Brian
HighWaterHErps
Cruciform
02-11-04, 08:19 PM
One thing that breeders need is a central bloodline registry, as detailed as those used by kennel clubs around the world. The ability to maintain varied bloodlines within the captive population without having to turn to WC would go far in arguing that responsible breeders can help perpetuate a species that may suffer losses due to human encroachment.
One problem with combatting a FUD campaign (Fear - Uncertainty - Doubt), is that it relies on emotional reactions from it's target audience. They pick certain "facts" and represent them in a way that the average consumer can digest and make decisions on without educating themselves in the matter. Reptile owners are a minority, and responsible owners an even smaller minority. When the majority sees an article in a reputable publication that says "The reptile trade is bad." it will be accepted at face value. It's an uphill battle however you cut it.
Scales Zoo
02-11-04, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Classic
[Scales Zoo: Quote: "The wildcaught trade, as it presently sits is sad in my opinion. The conditions of many petstore reptile departments are not what I'd want the activists to think is the norm".
Good point Rob.
hehe cute...not.
I'm not sure why you think that statement is so "Rob-Like", but I will admit publically, and stand by it, that I would like to see the wildcaught trade changed, and that there are petstores which are not keeping their animals as well as the majority of private keepers do.
Edited - (If you weren't being sarcastic, and just made a freudian slip of Rob for Ryan, then I appologize for getting defensive, and feel kind of stupid)
A good start is and i'm sure many others as do is, tell a pet department that their animals are being kept in sub-standard conditions.If their practices are incorrect, give them sugestions on how to fix the problem......They must be told that their improper husbandry practices are imitated by the unsure new hobbiest.
It is our responsibility as a community to uphold our hobby. We can make a difference. You just need to have a say if you see something wrong.
Brian
HighWaterHErps [/B]
You saved me some typing Brian - as the info in the above quote(directly above, not that other one), was kind of part of my point (I didn't go there - but since you brought it up...) Just ask many people on this forum, this thread infact. Doing something about the petstores that keep their animals in substandard conditions is something I've preached about it the past, and something I've personally done in the past.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the above post, but what I was trying to say is that, we, as hobbiests, should maybe do something to improve the areas that could use some improvement, so that people like Rob don't try to do it for us (much more drastically than we would like to).
Edited to add: - I don't want to sound like I'm totally against wildcaught animals, I know of their value in a breeding programs and other areas... But, thousands of poor pet type of reptiles being imported and sold, just so they can die, is not something I enjoy watching at it's current rate.
Ryan
Count me in! Unity is the only way we will get our voices heard. Its a real shame how organizations such as peta started out with the right idea and got screwed up somewhere along the way. anyways if u guys do reseructe croc or make a new organization up post it because there no way i'm letting them take my babies.
rock on kayla
Scales Zoo
02-11-04, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Invictus
Ryan - Maybe resurrecting CROC isn't a bad idea. I'd be up for that. Would you?
Well, looking back on it, CROC was a clever name, but it could imply that we think everybody should be able to own 3 nile crocodiles in their front yard.
I think some kind of Canada wide reptile club, which had representatives from each of the reptile clubs accross the country, would be a usefull tool. Ssnakess.com is kind of serving that purpose, as far as notifying others about new bylaws or other threats to the hobby.
Other names that aren't so good would be : Fangs, Venom, Komodo....
Ryan
Invictus
02-11-04, 09:18 PM
Yeah, I'll think of something. I'll see if I can come up with a name that would fit into the acronym "HEMOTOXIN". :D The X spot will be a bit of a pain...
Jeff_Favelle
02-11-04, 09:24 PM
Yeah, I'll think of something. I'll see if I can come up with a name that would fit into the acronym "HEMOTOXIN". The X spot will be a bit of a pain...
LOL!!!! :p
MouseKilla
02-11-04, 09:42 PM
I've said it before; let's just find these lettuce munchers and eat them. We should all sign up for the SPCA or whatever it is and show up at the first meeting with knives, forks and buckets of HP sauce. We'll show them who's at the top of the food chain! LOL!
Cruciform
02-11-04, 09:56 PM
S.N.A.K.E.S
Society of North American Keepers of Exotic Species :)
Classic
02-11-04, 10:04 PM
lol. Sorry Ryan. Bad typo.
Brian
hwh
Scales Zoo
02-11-04, 10:21 PM
Yes, bad typo, very bad :)
I should have realized it was a typo, my bad - I hope my reply wasn't too harsh, remember, I thought I was being called Rob <shudder>.
It's actually funny now.
Ryan aka Ryan
I am also trying to get intouch with several societies in the states ......See what they have encountered with this .......
Ken ........Yes this will be a HUGE topic at our next meeting ......
I just posted a reply to this on Bob Clark so if I'm being redundant I appologize. I doubt he's going to get very far with this. There are alot of high profile scientists openly working with the pet trade and speaking out infavour of conservation through commercialization (Mark O'Shea and Dr. Bryan Fry to name a couple). The biggest threat to wild populations is hardly the pet trade or even the skin trade, it's deforestation. Look at Madigascar and Brazil. Even South East Asia.
I can't help think of thousands of SPCAs full of abused and mistreated dogs and cats when he criticizes us. I used to take my clients to volunteer at the local SPCA and the only reptile I ever saw there was a green iguana, that was ironically being mistreated by them. They were feeding him dog food. They also wouldn't let me adopt him because they thought I would breed him.
I like what Australia has done with its licensing program for herps. The main problem as I see it with the trade is impulse buyers. I think I licensing policy were some compitancy must be shown and an expesive fee, would cut them out or limit them considerably. This issue came up locally recently and disappeared just a quick. A couselman wanted to ban all exotics and 'dangerous' dogs. The Canadian government is capable of some really bone headed *****, but I don't even think parliment is that stupid. We must speak out against it, I agree. People need to know that we do know something about keeping our animals healthy and well, and that these 'news stories' are the exception rather than the rule.
My $0.02
I oh ya I'm sure our local ecosystems would go for a ***** if all our pythons, boas, monitors, vipers, and elapids escaped. It would be disaster right before they all FREEZE TO DEATH! Dumb a$$.
Wuntu Menny
02-12-04, 12:41 PM
Ok, I tried to read as much of the subsequent responses as I could, but as has already been stated, forgive me if I repeat a thing or two.
First off, I have to admit that I support the restriction of the rampant collection of WC herps for the retail market. While I agree with much of the initial statement presented, I believe that some sort of compromise can be reached that will satisfy both sides of the argument.
It might sound like an "I told you so", but anyone that knows me has read or heard me warning of this very development for some time. All the indicators have been in place and the atmosphere ripe for outside intervention for years. It should really come as no surprise that this sort of action has been proposed.
I fully believe that the majority of pet herps are kept in less than adequate conditions, I see it or hear about it almost every day. While I do as much as I can for mine, I'm no expert either and I'm sure there's room for improvement around here too. One only has to go as far as the nearest herp related forums to get a good idea of the general lack of knowledge and flawed husbandry practices prevalent in the community. I'm quite sure WSPA used our own communication networks to gather evidence in support of their cause.
Why here? That's pretty basic... We have no unity, no collective voice, no cooperation, and above all, no multimillion dollar herp related industry. WSPA could never launch this in the US or even Europe as the big dollar herp trade players would squash them like crickets with superior financed legal counters. Canada has maybe a handful of wholesale dealers and an equal number of distibutors of US and Euro made products. The market is simply too small to warrant defense from corporate interests.
As for the unity, etc. : If we could channel all the energy and dedication that we reserve for the verbal riots that regularly occur and focus it on a common goal, we would actually have strong representation. As some of you have already stated, the only truly effective means to countering this threat is with an equally organized and unified argument against it. I think this approach would have a far greater impact than any letter writing campaign undertaken by individuals. That's not meant to discount the significance of the letter writing, however. The flood of mail directed to the associated legislative body has always been a good way to make a point in a "democratic" society.
As far as the skin/meat arguments go, you're wasting your time trying point fingers. WSPA wouldn't have the proverbial snowball's chance by strolling into Indonesia or Madagascar and trying to impose their views on the populace. In all likelihood, they would wind up vanishing in the jungle never to be heard from again. The Cdn hobby has only existed for a very short time, maybe 30 years at best and less than half of that has been mainstream as opposed to existing on the fringe. The old world traditions have been around for thousands of years and are inextricably woven into the social and cultural fabrics of their respective regions. We are embryonic by comparison, and as such, we make a pretty good fish in a barrel.
Picking apart the credibilty or background of the lobbyist in question, I believe, is also a wasted effort. That's fine for discrediting a witness in court, but in this case it won't make any difference. If anything, it makes our argument appear weaker if we have to resort to that as opposed to offering valid, educated counterpoints. We're already have enough problems with the perceptions of the general public and the popular press, I don't think we need to tarnish that image any more than it already is.
Think this is just the beginning? I think you're right. As everyone is already aware, numerous provinces, states, and municipalities have been passing bylaws and ordinances in recent years banning exotics. These groups, including WSPA, are merely following the path of least resistance, a standard grassroots approach. Precedent has been established on a smaller scale, and now its time to take it to the federal level. If they succeed here, you can be sure that the next time the SPCA tries something similar in the US or Britain, they'll have a stronger case by citing WSPA's example.
Wanna do something about it? Well, many of you are already on the right path, just do it together and don't start bickering amongst yourselves or you'll wind up coming off like the Keystone Kops. Also, be prepared for some sacrifices. I've been informed that this is the fourth consecutive attempt on WSPA's part to shut the door. Every time they get turned back, they reword their proposal and submit it again, so I don't anticipate that they will get bored and go away. Some changes will take place, for better or worse.
Ultimately, we've had this coming. We've chosen to disregard or ignore events and situations that reflect directly on us for too long. Instead of taking some action or voicing opposition to unethical, immoral, or flat out illegal activities, we've left ourselves wide open for attack. While we've allowed ourselves to get bogged down in childish battles over trivial issues, someone's been quietly gathering support and momentum to stop the slaughter, (and it is slaughter) that we've opted to overlook.
I do believe its time to put up or shut up!
Lowell M. Shaw aka WM
Gary D.
02-12-04, 01:07 PM
Quote: "One thing that breeders need is a central bloodline registry, as detailed as those used by kennel clubs around the world. The ability to maintain varied bloodlines within the captive population without having to turn to WC would go far in arguing that responsible breeders can help perpetuate a species that may suffer losses due to human encroachment."
I invite anyone to read the information I have posted on the database at my site. I appologise that I have not yet relocated the site to a more browser friendly address, but I will also forward any info on requests PM'ed to me.
Canadian Boid Genetics Database (cdn_boid_database.tripod.com)
But more importantly I urge members to join or re-join their local herp club or society. I plan to work with the TARAS board to utilize the current efforts of existing societies and groups to front a more unified voice for the herp community. We have been given more than ample warning, now and in the past. It is indeed time to prepare our response.
Excellent post Lowell, and Annette thank you for bringing this article to the attention of this forum and others.
Gary Dawson
Cruciform
02-12-04, 02:45 PM
Hey cool! I can finally get to the database, if only from work :) Maybe I'll just have to do my surfing through SSH from now on :)
Didn't anyone like my spiffy S.N.A.K.E.S. acronyn? :P
Retic chic
02-12-04, 03:02 PM
Joining and being an active member of a herp club or society is only good if the societies mission is the same as your own. There are some good organizations out there, but often the actions of the members conflict with the mission of the society itself, and this causes trouble. If the members of a club or society share the same goals and ideas, the club wil be an effective force in educating the general public, and promoting responsible reptile ownership. It is the irresponsible, uneducated keepers of herps that cause the activists to get upset in the first place.
Just my 2 cents
Invictus
02-12-04, 03:06 PM
Your acronym rocked, Cruciform, and I just might use it if you don't mind. :)
Lowell - Excellent post. Save for one thing - you mentioned that letter writing is one way to go about it, but you imply it's not the most effective way - so what is? What are you proposing here? Come to the next TARAS board meeting, I can forsee us planning a course of action well into the wee hours. :)
Wuntu Menny
02-12-04, 04:03 PM
Ken, as I said, I believe that the organized, unified approach will have more power than the multiple campaigns of individual hobbyists. I think lines of communication need to be established and maintained between locales to share info and ideas on how to best defend against this proposed legislation. A singular, nationwide banner to represent all of us would seem to be the most logical means of contesting the motion currently on the table.
Nice try with the T word there! LOL! Due to mitigating circumstances, I'll be conducting my efforts from the periphery rather than the round table. Not to worry, you'll all be made aware of any constructive ideas I manage to dredge from the depths.
Also worth mentioning: Once you've been to a few of those brainspraining late night sessions on a wednesday evening, you probably won't be looking forward to them quite so eagerly! You guys need to put a timer on those meetings before you all go buggy!!
Originally posted by Gary D.
I invite anyone to read the information I have posted on the database at my site. I appologise that I have not yet relocated the site to a more browser friendly address, but I will also forward any info on requests PM'ed to me.
Canadian Boid Genetics Database (cdn_boid_database.tripod.com)
What about colubrid, lizard, amphib and invert breeders?
How about a whole exotic bloodline industry?
Patrick Wise
02-12-04, 08:47 PM
First of all the WSPA hasn't done anything yet other than publish a seemingly innocent article about reptile welfare in Canada and then personally submit a very slanderous email to Lynn about herpers and the trade. If you read the article in their online journal carefully what is alarming is what isn't said. About the fact we (Canada) participate in CITES which is an existing body governing endangered species internationally, yes they never mention the skin and meat trade b/c they know that live collections do not amount to 1% of that trade and that would belittle their efforts. Their argument is flawed in many ways and CITES stats can prove the limited impact of wild collection of most species and proves the damage done by skin and meat collectors. Vigilance is important, many of us on the TARAS exec have seen this article and are quite aware of WSPA goals. Until they attempt something that takes away our rights there is little we can do to stop their rhetoric, this is still a free country for a little while longer and everyone can voice their opinions. Short of petitioning parliament to put "the right to own pets" in the constitution and sending what amounts to oppositional mail to the WSPA we sit and wait.
Scales Zoo
02-12-04, 10:31 PM
Hey Pat, nice to see you on ssnakess.com, I hope to see you post more often.
I agree that it is just rhetoric at this point, as it has always been. I do have a feeling, that Rob and the like are positioning themselves to try and cause action (once again). Simple rhetoric or not, it has the potential to cause damage to the hobby if left without retort (whatever that may look like), would you not agree?
After the 3rd or 4th try, I'm sure they are learning something about what works, I don't think we should just "sit and wait".
I think it will be groups like TARAS, or HISS etc., that can try to bring some reasonable answers to the many questions that will be put forward in the next while. I think if we don't handle this in a responsible and proactive manner now, we will regret it in the future. It is too late to do something after they succeed at their goal, the time to plan is now.
Ryan
Anyone fimilar with Daniel Bennet? I was just on Dr. Fry's website and he said the his guy did a study into the sustainablity of wild harvesting of ball pythons and savannah monitors and found it to be totally sustainable. Interesting. I would like to find a copy of this study. If I do I'll post a link.
M_surinamensis
02-13-04, 08:29 AM
I responded to this on Clark's forums but I'll add it here too.
Bennet is one of (Possibly THE) most educated and respected field biologists in the world, he's done some truly amazing work with varanids which automatically takes him into contact with other species. There aren't all that many people, even well respected ones, where I accept anything they have to say at face value, even if it contradicts established beliefs or avaliable circumstantial evidence- Bennet is one of them though.
M_surinamensis
02-13-04, 08:52 AM
After the 3rd or 4th try, I'm sure they are learning something about what works, I don't think we should just "sit and wait".
From my personal experiences dealing with similar situations in the United States, it's entirely possible to become publicly active before they make their entire agenda known to the voting masses. Contact the assorted news media and approach them with the idea of stories which are both truthful and supportive of the hobby. Take a human interest angle (people like seeing photos or video of large snakes) and use it as a platform from which you can express additional support for the concepts you know to be true.
I am under the impression that at least a few individuals or groups do traveling educational programs, right? Invite a news crew with some cameras to one of your shows, get some shots of appreciative second graders learning about the natural world and be sure to mention to both the kids and the reporter that "Reptiles are an important part of the natural world and it's important for children to learn that they're nothing to be afraid of and the safe way to approach them. There's a lot of social stigma attached to reptiles and their owners and it's time that the truth about their suitability was known." toss in a statistic about how many kids are eaten by their pet dogs every year versus injured by a reptile then add something along the lines of "Reptiles are also an intrinsic part of the ecosystem, we feel it's important to educate kids about their role in the wild so that they can continue to fight the dangers to wild populations such as; habitat destruction and collection for the meat and skin trade. The pet industry has long been one of the groups which provides primary financial support for protection of suitable habitat and ensuring that these animals remain safe in the wild. If the wild populations are in danger or being threatened, it impacts the animals we love and endangers our ability to keep them." then insert a statistic about donations from the private sector and the pet industry involving an impressibe dollar amount which has gone to habitat preservation. Stress that cats and dogs are problem species and the fact that herpers don't want herps to end up in the same situations and the dedication to education shown by the herping community.
Take the fight to your enemy, hit them first and hit them hard. If there's enough interest and enough repetition of a message which extolls the positive aspects of the herp trade AND makes it clear that herpers are in it to educate others, then they'll have a hard time pushing their propaganda. The average voting population has no real basis for making a decision on this issue, if it comes down to a matter of public support, the masses will accept whatever they are told first if it appears to come from a reliable source. They don't know Laidlaw or his type and if he comes across as someone in a position to know, they'd take whatever he might say and believe it as being truthful. The trick is to give them something else to believe first.
I know it was mentioned in the section that Nett copied of another message board but it bears repeating- make sure whoever is acting as a spokesperson for the group is well spoken, well educated, clean cut and has some credentials which sound impressive to the average person off the street. No matter how correct a person might be, an unfortunate truth is that people judge others by their appearance and by their occupation, some of the most intelligent herpers I know are tattoo covered construction workers; the herping community looks solely at how well they know their herps, the general public doesn't. If you can choose a doctor or someone who owns or is employed at a zoo who can wear a suit and tie (or whatever the terms are for the equivalent for women- business clothing) and list off their years of experience or degrees, they're the best choice.
Patrick Wise
02-13-04, 09:52 AM
First of all I don't think the WSPA is our enemy. Their goal is to promote the welfare of captive animals, that is why a number of TARAS members belong to the organisation. I beleive their initiative in Canada however is misdirected. What they should be doing is fighting for proper legislation to deal with people who abuse and neglect their charges. Lets face it we have all been disgusted by conditions in a pet store at one time or another or, at times, the total lack of concern and knowledge by pet store owners or employess. As for the public eye, we have large shows twice a year in Calgary and Red Deer and Edmonton. As for using large constrictors to grab attention, this is a double edged sword. Every newbie to the hobbie sees a pic like that and wants a giant snake that on a bad day could easily kill them. Your right we need to be proactive, but the problem remains most herpers in our organisation do not want to put in the effort. We have a large ghost membership. If you get someone to come out to an executive meeting once or twice thats great. They have all kinds of great idesa and expect others to follow through on them with the time and work. What we need are more proactive members, not just poeple who take 5 minutes a day to complain on a forum. If you people are really concerned come out to the next local herp meeting in your region. Listen, learn whats going on, bring up relevant topics for discussion and when you suggest an idea be willing to follow up and work on it yourself. The first step in starting a ground swell to galvanize a national movement to protect our rights is to solidify local ties and work togethor locally and then to work togethor to network across the country.... I hope to see you at the next TARAS exec meeting if your reading this in my area.
M_surinamensis
02-13-04, 10:07 AM
The WSPA might not be an enemy, but this particular initiative and the particular individuals behind it certainly appear to be.
If a good organization is infected by negative individuals and a negative approach and way of thinking, sometimes it has ceased to be of any benefit.
Retic chic
02-13-04, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Patrick Wise
As for using large constrictors to grab attention, this is a double edged sword. Every newbie to the hobbie sees a pic like that and wants a giant snake that on a bad day could easily kill them.
I am not sure about the other people in the reptile education and conservation business, but I am more likely to strangle a spectator on a bad day than any of the snakes in our display are. We choose our display animals very carefully, and they have proven to be even tempered and docile, to the point of tolerating what some would consider "abuse". Unlike me.
We dont allow people to hold the alligators, anacondas and even the turtles for obvious reasons, anyone who has seen us in person and stuck around long enough to listen to the explanations and descriptions of the reptiles in the display would know this.
I dont ask that everyone agree with what we do, but I wish the ones that dont would stay out of the way of the ones that do. We offer people who have never seen a snake the opportunity to interact with one in a controled situation. People can touch or hold a snake if they wish, without having to buy it first. We are not in the business of selling reptiles, but what we do goes a long way to promote reptile ownership to benefit those who are making a living breeding reptiles. We explain why giant pythons and alligators do not make good pets, and reccomend some species that do. If you take the time to browse through the literature, you will find information on CITES, import regulations, WAPPRITA, captive care of many types of reptile, venomous snakes including our prairie rattlers, native species, conservation efforts, etc.
M_surinamensis
02-13-04, 10:42 AM
The real reason that I suggested a large constrictor is because the media outlets need to be grabbed too... If you tell them you're going to do a show with some five inch geckos, then there isn't much for them to take photos of or get video footage of so they'll likely decline. If you inform them that you'll have a ten foot long burm, it's something which they might be inclined to show an interest in.
The entire point of the contact is to give the broader public a brief introduction into safe and responsible keeping and some of the wider issues which impact the industry, which includes handling or keeping the larger species.
Patrick Wise
02-13-04, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Retic chic
[ If you take the time to browse through the literature, you will find information on CITES, import regulations, WAPPRITA, captive care of many types of reptile, venomous snakes including our prairie rattlers, native species, conservation efforts, etc. [/B]
I am not quite sure how this is relevant to what I said, but thanks I already have copies of CITES, WAPPRITA and more literature than most people could read in 10 years and I work at the Calgary zoo so I am well versed in conservation. Your missing my point, the one I made about fighting among ourselves, and instead working togethor. Perhaps I should have left the statement about large constrictors out b/c it seems to evoke a great deal of emotion in many people, but I have had to restrain many large snakes for various reasons over the years and beleive me most people are completely unaware of the awe inspiring power these animals have. Your right they do grab attention quickly but most people don't hear what you tell them about the animals not making good pets, they only see you standing there holding one. Monkey see monkey doo.
Retic chic
02-13-04, 11:49 AM
My comment about the literature was not directed at you personally, Pat. Rather, it was for the benefit of those who think we only bring out snakes and gators for the sensational effects.
I am aware of your position at the zoo, and can respect the fact that you also know the awesome force these snakes posess.
To go off topic, horses kill more people per year than all other animals combined, including exotics. Why is there no law to prevent the parents from buying a pony for the kids, just to have the kids cratered on the weekend? Is it because horses are considered to be more beautiful, desirable and noble than snakes? Twenty years in the livestock industry tells me there is something wrong wth the way people think.
The point you make about working together is wishful thinking. As long as there are differences of opinion and attitude within a club, and the members cannot accept the differences and move beyond that, there is no chance for solidarity to fight for a common goal.
Wuntu Menny
02-13-04, 12:01 PM
Hmmm.. I guess It took me too long to hit submit. This was supposed to follow Seamus' last post. D'oh!
And herein lies one of the biggest hurdles...finding that middle ground that both satisfies the media's thirst for sensation and best illustrates our position. For what its worth Seamus, I like this approach much more than the other one you proposed! We may have to retain your services as master strategist as you seem to have all the angles! LOL
Whether the potential threat is imminent or simply brewing in the minds of extremists, the fact remains that we tend to sit on our thumbs and assume that all will be well in the end. Why not seize this opportunity and do something to improve the public's image of our chosen pastime? Too many of us, myself included, can talk, but have a hard time getting up and taking that walk to back it up.
Judging by the number of posts on this thread, there appears to be a bit of the groundswell Pat refered to in the making. Like it or not, we're all in the same boat, let's see if we can all row it in the same direction for a change. This isn't the first attempt to place unrealistic restrictions on the hobby, and it certainly won't be the last. If nothing else, we'll be better prepared when the next wingnut takes the podium.
WM
Patrick Wise
02-13-04, 12:31 PM
Hi Sheila
Good to hear from you, hope all is well with you and the Scales zoo. Sorry I thought that comment was directed at me. Your right there is too much infighting, but it happens in every organisation, seems to be human nature. But I think we can put differences aside long enough to acheive our goals, we did it once already with the coalition lobby group here in Alberta and we did change the laws, and we had the AVMA, Humane society, both herp groups, Edmonton and Calgary, the Calgary and valley zoos on board for the lobby. I believe it can be done.
This is all great .....I am glad my heads up sparked some interest here...Its nice to see everyone coming together for a common goal for once ......Please lets keep it that way .........
But what we need are case studies on the points that Mr. Laidlaw made in his response to Lynne ......We need to be able to back our position up with hard core facts and statistics......If we all do some research on this I am sure we can compile an unbelievable amount of facts to disprove what Mr.Laidlaw is saying...... Instead of posting what we should do .....Lets start with some research and get some fact behind us 1st .......Please email me at .......
wrappedupinreptiles@abnet.ca
With any and everything u have found regarding this ......
Thanks
Cruciform
02-13-04, 01:06 PM
Seamus noted that as part of the education we should bring up the point that cats and dogs are problem species. Once that is mentioned we may as well go outside and start talking to the wall, because nobody else will be listening. Whether or not they are is irrelevant when trying to educate people. If you try to defend your position by undermining their beloved pets, they'll just tune you out.
Sure, conflict breeds press coverage, but burns off quickly and all people remember is that reptile breeders are a bunch of whiners who hate cats and dogs. We don't want that to happen either.
Lots of good points being made here. I like it when a topic gets 6 pages long and nobody's ripping someone else a new one :)
M_surinamensis
02-13-04, 01:15 PM
Don't define them as a problem species, simply note that there are problems with the species which need to be worked out.
If someone brings up unwanted iguana numbers, mention the number of unwanted cats in a manner which illustrates the responsible attitudes of reptile owners and the ways in which we have managed to curb some of the difficulties inherent in pet ownership of any kind.
By doing so, the idea of legislation that improves the general welfare of animals can be broached as an alternative to bans or restrictions. Rather than not letting anyone have animals of any sort simply because there are some which will be abused and neglected by the ignorant, put the focus on enforcement of existing laws and putting together programs that help ALL animals. If a non-profit reptile group has a fund which donates money to having cats spayed for free, rehabilitating and placing large burms and getting dog vaccinations for owners who can't afford them... Something that goes towards a wide array of educational programs surrounding multiple captive species, it brings other demographics in to support Reptile related causes.
For sensationalism why don't we get shots of kids crying because they're going to lose their family pet.
One plus for reptiles is unlike cats and dogs they don't have fur to be alergic to.
Simon Sansom
02-15-04, 02:05 AM
Interesting posts!
It seems like every so often these activists pop up with another "initiative" - frankly, I don't even listen them anymore. They've been trying for years, and have not really been able to do anything. They really don't have any credibiltiy when it comes down to it.
The reptile industry is HUGE in the U.S. and is growing by leaps and bounds in Canada. These groups will NOT be able to shut down an entire industry - politicians will realize that too many folks depend on the industry for a living.
And, I'm going to take a view on wild-caught herps which may make me unpopular, but here goes...
Let's face it, most of our wild-caught herps come from "economically depressed" countries, where the money that an indigenous collector makes may be his only income. I don't want to take that away from someone, and I don't think they'd like it taken from them.
I think that perhaps there should be guidelines and studies done to manage the wild populations as sustainable resources, to a certain point. Let's not forget the "human factor".
Just my two cent's worth...
Let's face it, most of our wild-caught herps come from "economically depressed" countries, where the money that an indigenous collector makes may be his only income. I don't want to take that away from someone, and I don't think they'd like it taken from them.
That's one of the findings in the Bennet report from what Dr. Fry told me. And I agree with what you say about the economics of the industry. It is huge in the U.S., take Bob Clark for example. He posted a picture recently on his forums of some of his retic eggs. He has 500 in the incubator and that's from only half of his females. He's not breeding those numbers just for $h!ts and giggles.
The same is beginning to happen here. Money talks. And when looking at the value of some of the specimens and morphs becoming available here, it's easy to see this is quickly becoming big buisness and not just something done by some arm-chair biologists.
As I said earlier there are alot of prominant herpatologists speaking out infavour of the industry. Mark O'Shea appears often at conventions, and Dr. Fry is an out spoken advocate of conservation through commercialisation. These people carry more weight than what's his name. I even think Jesus Rivas is also in favour of the industry as is Rob Bennet.
I do think we will be okay, but I think we should be united and that perhaps this is a good time to think about a national herp organization. Competion, and ego need to be put aside for the good of the industry, our right to keep the animals we love, and for those animals directly.
I sent something to Mr Laidlaw, although it isn't much, I did touch upon something that nearly nobody touches upon when debating about the keeping of reptiles, allergies. Like i said, it's not much, but I hope it helps a bit.
Hello Mr Laidlaw,
Wnat proof do you have that most reptile keepers keep their animals incorrectly? I will not lie and say that every single person that owns a reptile takes proper care of it, but is this not the same as the keeping of "domesticated" animals? There are some people that care for dogs or cats incorrectly, but does that give anyone the right to punish those that care for them properly and love these animals by strictly prohibiting the ownership of them?I sir, think not.
Another question that comes to mind is, what about the people that are allergic to any animal with fur, feathers, or nearly any animal that swims(such as myself)? What are they supposed to do? Get rid of the only animals they can own and love because a extremely small amount of people keep them improperly?
I find the whole idea of banning the keeping of reptiles is absurd, partially due to what I have mentioned above, and I am sure that most people who are fairly knowledgeable about reptiles(not saying that you are not) would agree with me.
Thank you for your time.
Good stuff. Nobody seems to mention the dramatic effect habitat distruction is having on wild popultions. People always point the finger to poaching and the pet trade. Could it be because we (Canada & U.S.) are responsible for it in some form or another? It seems to me to be that habitat distruction is the real issue when it come to threatening wild populations of any animal. Don't get me wrong, poaching isn't helping, but there's no way poachers can keep up with the pressures of industry.
Invictus
02-15-04, 12:30 PM
I think what I will do is get some video footage of my 10 year old daughter interacting with her bearded dragon, and interacting with one of my snakes (soon to be hers), her most beloved species, the kenyan sand boa. I'll ask her right on the video what she would think if someone came along and told her she couldn't have her beloved pets anymore. Maybe a video of a 10 year old girl and her daddy bonding with a common interest will be effective. Might go towards satisfying the whole "danger" crap associated with reptiles.
While I'm at it, maybe I can convince her to hold my 7' boa.... now THAT would satisfy media hype AND deliver a clear message that even large reptiles are not *all* harmful.
Just some random thoughts. :)
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