whats your thoughts on creating hybrids to...

[Grant vg]

create new morphs??

I came across an american website of a breeder (s) who is/and has been crossing Red albinos with Sumatran blacks....red albinos with Marbled borneos, etc...

Obviously they are attempting (and succeeding) to bring over the albino gene into the other species...to one day make albino blacks, and albino marbles....

Am i the only one bothered by this?
I think this is an all time low for this species...as they are surely going to be new morphs of all 3 species popping up sooner then later on there own...rather then created by these ppl.
it just seems to me like these pathetic ppl are rushing way too fast into ruining the uniqueness of all 3 species...especially since i consider the potential of these species still in its infancy.

Is it greed?
Is it a lack of compatible adults?
Do people really get that bored so quickly these days, that they cant just appreciate each species respectfully..?


Say in 5 years...after the hybrid morphs have already creeped there way into the hobby...and someone finds the first TRUE black albino in the wild???
Will anyone care?

Sorry for the ramble, but as i said earlier, this is an all time low and these are just a few of the things that have been on my mind.


grant vg

[operation_sssss]

Good post/thread grant. I dont see how people can justify creating hybrids??? generally the only apparent motive behind it is money. I would certainly not want to see the same thing happen with bloods as what has happened with corns (hope that made sense :) ), through creating hybrids at some point along the line the species will lose their identity. I dont understand why people cannot leave things alone and what makes them think they have the moral right to do this.
That feels better lol,
Kind reguards Cheers Will

[SD-SNAKE]

I agree with you grant 100%. Money is the root of all evil. Humans have this feeling that they are god and can do as they want not thinking about the things at hand. What was the web site that you found this info on? All we can do is spread the word that hybrids are not right and hope people listen and follow. take care Nick

[Grant vg]

I saw it at www.thebloodline.net

i just DONt agree with it and i hope others dont as well.
Hopefully enough ppl dont show interest in it and dont buy them, but i REALLY doubt that will be the case.


Heres to all of you working to produce pure babies in the future!
Anyone who purposely creates hybrids gets blacklisted in my books...lol :D

Hope this doesn't sound like propaganda...it just REALLY bugs me.

gvg

[BoidKeeper]

Personally I'm against it. I'm afraid that someone some day will pair an albino colombian with a hog or some other form of insular boa to get the albino gene into the island boas.
Cheers,
Trevor

[marisa]

Yeah the thought of creating hybrids with boas/pythons simply to get a trait into them doesn't sit well with me now that I really think on it.

Basically you may have an albino hybrid boa, but you'll never have a pure albino boa such and such, if you get my meaning. So I don't see the point in creating them for that specific reason at all.

Marisa

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

When i read SD-SNAKE's post, i remembered about suzuki's 3 "sacred truths" as he calls them. About us thinking we are above nature, or god-like. Here is a link to what he said, i listened to the full recorded speech he gave a bit back, it was great, and true. I think it kind of relates to this in that we are pressing for results and are not appreciating the animals we have and we aren't looking to the future in terms of what we are doing to the world of herps. Its a good read and im sure you will be able to relate it to this topic.

http://jnevill.customer.netspace.net.au/Suzuki_quote.htm

I don't agree with it either grant. Thanks.

Chris

[Big_V]

I completely agree with you guys. And Chris that Suzuki article is so true...and thanks because im doing a paper on this type of thing in my politics class at McMaster. :) We cant play god for the sake of profit alone. People need to wake up and realise their are certain things that should not be messed with. Eventually the people who do this type of breeding are going to completely alter genetic traits and permanently damage the genetic make ups of these creatures forever. I say these people stop playing god for the sake of money and the self proclimation of being the one that came up with the new morphs. Its BS in my mind and completely unethical. If these people are trying to breed these animals for profit their likelyhood depends on that species so why do an injustice to a species on which you rely on. DOESNT MAKE SENSE.
Cheers,
Ryan

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yuck, I wouldn't do it.

"Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD".

[Stockwell]

I'm against it too. Selective breeding to bring out or intensify traits that are latent, is OK in my book, but everyone has to draw the line somewhere and with me anyway, its the crossing of different species, and in some cases different subspecies and locals of the same species.
I've been told there are guys starting to Breed Ball Pythons to Angolans just to make a new "Ball Python Morph" because they're running out of new things to put thousand dollar price tags on
I could never support that.

There's an ad I saw last night on Queensnake for Albino Pueblans.. The poor girl explains in the ad that she bought her snakes as Pueblans at a show.
She gives pictures too. The look like pueblans, but they threw some albino babies.
The problem is there are no albino Pueblan milks.
Here snakes had obviously been crossed with Ruthveni. So she bought snakes that were misrepresented, and now she inturn is selling the het and albino babies...
so what's next? This will be happening to all kinds of things..
Imagine buying nice Angolans and getting Ball python babies

[Scales Zoo]

It is the 75% diamond python crosses that get me. Like, sure, they are trying to make more diamond like babies, and some are really killer looking.

But, some day - those snakes will be indistinguishable to normal diamonds, and someone will get one unsuspecting, and start breeding diamonds - and so on and so forth, until, like the Indian Python, no one knows if a real pure one actually exists in captivity.

But, I have frankenstein genetics (from the old country don't cha know) - and have to admit that I like looking at pictures of crosses. In fact, I saw a weird python just the other day that made me consider buying one.

Ryan

[axwielding1]

I'm no expert, and only have 3 snakes. But, after reading this thread I felt obligated to tell this story...
I'm from NY, and around here, there is a ball python in every pet store. I saw a Ball in a store that looked VERY different from all the others I'd seen, and noticed it had some scarring on it's back, obviously from a mouse. I inquired about it, and was told it's a normal, run of the mill Ball python. I bought it for 29.95, and took it home. He's doing well, and has very sparse markings, with a beautiful blush tone...
There are so many "ghost" balls around, people don't even remember how beautiful a "plain" ball can be. What a shame!
Also, my Sumatran Blood, who is not fire engine red, is quite beautiful in her own rite.
We should remember to appreciate a species as they are, as well as the unique attributes of certain individuals.
This sensibility applies to people as well. Promoting attributes in a species is great...Within that species..No Frankensteins please!
ax.

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

There actually are Agolan x Ball python crosses out! Its so ridiculous. N.E.R.D carries them, i know that. Its getting wrong, we come in here, and in that last 2 seconds of the year(if anyone read that suzuki article) we mix all of these snake types together and screw the world of herps up. Anyways. I hope we can prevent this and that people look more at the joy of keeping herps than the money and the so-called "fame" they get from breeding these "mutations" or morphs. Personally, i think they are like a 5 eyed fish with a blowhole and legs(just a metaphor i thought of, lol).

[JDouglas]

I totally agree with the original post and its not just pythons that are being hybridized. It seems that all types of reptiles are at risk of becoming the next hybrid. For example people ask me all the time if I will breed Hog Island Boas to one of my albinos or Hypos. I say no... leave that to people who only care about money.

[Grant vg]

The scary part is....

That there ARE people who only care about money working with every different type of herp.
I wouldn't be surprised if the hog x albino colombian hasn't already been put into effect along with numerous amounts of other projects.

infact, i was just reading about them in the hybrid forum and how supposedly theres pics of them over on queensnake. However, i couldn't find them.

I also came across a fellow expecting babies from his colombian x dumeril cross...

Geeze...
Perhaps its boredom, but i have a feeling it has a lot to do with the "little" ppl with no chance of competing with say the top python/boa breeders and that they are desperately seeking recognition in this hobby and they feel the only way they can achieve that is by creating something new.
this is only one of a few hypothesis i have been comming up with.

And for some reason its been bothering the he!! out of me lately.

Especially when i hear stories like Roy mentioned.

The defence that Pro-hybrids always use in this topic is always "well, if we represent them properly, there shouldn't be a problem." And although this puts my mind at ease somewhat....this doesn't seem to be the case.

I'd be FURIOUS if i bought a pair of snakes, bred them, and they threw out something i wasn't expecting (unless of course they were both het for Ivory blood and i got some little white bloods :D)

[axwielding1]

I do remember seeing a picture on the net of a ballxborneo...
Basically a ball, colored like a borneo... Very strange...
I hope these don't get out and someone ends up with a 7ft, 40lb. Ball Python! It was a Frankenstein bred animal..
Not Good...
ax.

[Yve]

gluttony...such an ugly trait....boredom...such an ugly trait...

[Boid_22]

Personally Grant.......I LOVE HYBRIDS......LOL
No really, I have a slight soft spot for some hybrids although i would NEVER attempt to reproduce for myself.
AS far as finding a TRUE Black Albino in the wild goes, I think finding a true specimen would astonish anyone even those who might have bred generations of these morphs.

P.S. Anything can happen in the wild......Life is totally unpredictable.

Regards.......Ed Holder

[Velvet Science]

For the record, i don't own any hybrids- nor have i created any. But if "toying" with nature is the issue to be discussed, then i think those who oppose it have a bit to look at. For example: it would not be hard for a hardline non-herper to make the case that in nature, there are no blood pythons that eat F/T lab raised rats, live on newspaper substrate, are warmed by helix controlled flexwatt heat tape, drink chlorinated water, live in polypropylene boxes with windowed views of the canadian snow while breeding with morphed-out siblings. Unfortunately, if supporting nature really were our first and only priority, i'm afraid that we we would have to put our much loved snakes back where they came from. I don't know that we need to do this, but i believe we do need to be completely honest about our real motives in this- and i would be HIGHLY skeptical of anyone who claims to have no self-interest in this hobby.
Furthermore, with proof of Amazon X Emeralds coming not from private breeders, but the Amazon basin itself, and Daimond X Carpet crosses being an endemic phenomena, it seems somewhat overly idealistic/ shortsighted to assume that such creatures as Sumatran Reds and Sumatran Blacks, living together for countless generations on an ISLAND, are not already doing what nature does best- propogate. I'm reminded of some our own mothers, who, when we were in high-school, were SO certain that their little angels were still haloed virgins.
I mean it when i say that absolutely no offence is intended to anyone with this post- i simply think that we all, myself as much as anyone, become better stewards to these incredible creatures when we contantly assess why we do what we do, and where we are honestly coming from in it all.

Best to you all,

Tyler

[JDouglas]

:confused:
I realize there are areas where species interbreed but this doesn't mean everyone should do it.
Your argument is a very weak argument. For example...
Every day people die so its OK if I kill someone. This is the type of reasoning you are using.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but many try to overlook or deny the fact that their opinions and practices may lead to the slow destruction of pure species. Many herpers enjoy "pure" animals and worry that hybrids will work there way into the bloodline and the "pure" form will become extinct.

[JDouglas]

But if "toying" with nature is the issue to be discussed, then i think those who oppose it have a bit to look at. For example: it would not be hard for a hardline non-herper to make the case that in nature, there are no blood pythons that eat F/T lab raised rats, live on newspaper substrate, are warmed by helix controlled flexwatt heat tape, drink chlorinated water, live in polypropylene boxes with windowed views of the canadian snow while breeding with morphed-out siblings.



Tyler,
Comparing captive husbandry with hybridization is the perfect example of a false analogy. Captive husbandry doesn't destroy the animal genetically and change it to a mutt. Captive care has nothing to do with keeping an animal genetically pure. Creating the same conditions that are found in nature is impossible but that doens't make hybridation OK. In many cases species are extinct in the wild (i.e. Hog Island Boas) and have a very small gene pool in captivity. Creating hybrids only compounds this problem by creating mutts that will eventually be bred back to "pure" animals.

[Velvet Science]

Originally posted by JDouglas
:confused:
Everyone is entitled to their opinions,

You made an excellent point, and it's really the one i was trying to make. A "pure" captive bloodline is not a universal dictum. It's not written in stone or a law unto itself. It's really just a preference, or an opinion that's taken form- and though it's one that i share to a greater degree, i recognize that it's still just a personal choice. And there's no harm in that. Such preferences only become dangerous when people begin to support them with labels like "ethical" and threats against those who don't share their own opinion.

Tyler

[JDouglas]

Such preferences only become dangerous when people begin to support them with labels like "ethical" and threats against those who don't share their own opinion.

So you agree with me? From your last post I can't seem to comprehend what your position is on the subject at at hand? Are you saying creating hybrids is just a preference with no harmful effects? Do you feel it is not an ethical issue? You can't choose if it is an ethical issue. Either it is or it isn't. In this case it is because a large percentage of herpers feel that it is. Also, no one here has made any threats? I am having trouble understanding your postion and point of view?

And there's no harm in that.
I disagree because hybridization does cause harm and has negative repercussions. If someone thinks it doesn't they are only thinking of themselves and their own interest or monetary gain.

[Velvet Science]

Originally posted by JDouglas
So you agree with me? ... You can't choose if it is an ethical issue. Either it is or it isn't. In this case it is because a large percentage of herpers feel that it is. Also, no one here has made any threats?

I agree with you in as much as i have made a personal choice not to create hybrids. But that doesn't make it an ethics issue. Nor does many people sharing the same opinion suddenly exalt that opinion to the status of "ethical".
And in regards to threats- i can think of no more serious threat to a member of this community than blacklisting.


Tyler

[Grant vg]

How can you consider blacklisting, or in other words....Boycotting as a serious threat to a member of this community?
Its done ALL the time.
I do it daily....
I walk a little further to buy my smokes because the owner of the nearest convenience store is rude.
I boycott some pet shops because of there complete lack of responsibility for the care of their animals.
Others do not shop at certain stores because of the conditions and wages workers from abroad recieve.
Its done daily ....by everyone.
and should be looked at as a positive movement in most usages...

For me, Anyone who "knowingly" takes one species (talking bloods here) and crosses it to another species of blood to bring out a gene that they plan on breeding it "true" back to the rest of that species...will be boycotted by me. As in, they will be in my black book of ppl NOT to deal with in the future.
Now can that be considered a threat?
Perhaps, depending on how you look at it.
If every major breeder decided to hybridize everything they have in there collection, but all the buyers decided this wasn't "ethical" and boycotted any dealings with these ppl ...we would have a problem on our hands.. or should i say THEY would have a problem on there hands.
People will voice there opinions.
And people will act accordingly to those opinions.

If no one buys those hybrids, the people have spoken, and in most instances, the breeder will cease to produce anymore (assuming producing the hybrids was for monetary gain).

Now if you see that as a "major threat" thats your opinion.
I wouldn't mind being enlightened on your views, as my opinions are always changing...
If you feel me (or anyone for that matter) not supporting someone because of MY views clashing with THEIR practices as something negative or a threat to this hobby, then we obviously have totally different views on this subject.

I'm not in this hobby to see it evolve into a free for all breeding frenzy crossing this, crossing that because people get bored and want that new 2004 SUV or the next big morph to cross to something else.
If thats what it becomes, perhaps i will take up collecting stamps. Atleast "preservation" is valued there.

But i do agree with you that "whats ethical" is based on each individuals morals, values, etc... to a certain extent anyways...

And i apologize to you if you took my "blacklisting" comment any differently then what i have stated above.

Grant vg

[Velvet Science]

Grant,

I now see your side of it. Thank you.

Tyler

[Linds]

I think in the above posts, the original question was lost, as natural intergrades became part of the discussion. Mixing two different animals that may breed naturally in their wild state and mixing two animals for a certain look, shortcut, or dollar gain are two different things.

I'm sort of on the fence for natural intergrades. One one note, who am I to disagree with nature? However, are these animals interbreeding because we are forcing them together by means of (unnatural) habitat destruction? Also, just because it happens in nature, is not to mean that it will not cause impurity problems in captivity through misrepresentation, etc.

Now unnatural hybrids for monetary gain or shortcuts to certain looks, really make me sick. My favourite example of this is the albino BCI x BCC project. Now there are IS a true albino BCC, just discovered later than the BCI were. These species in their pure form can sometimes be difficult to tell apart... let alone the confusion with the common names... we are now seeing 75% BCC animals, etc. out there... one day if I were to purchase an albino BCC in the future, would I be able to rest easy knowing it was pure? Never :( Shortcuts like these bother me fiercely.

Personally, how I sit with hybrids is that, if someone were to produce a litter/clutch of hybrids, I would be fine with it AS LONG as those snakes NEVER left that persons hands... from the time they hatched til the time they were gone. That is the only way it can be guaranteed that those snakes don't contribute to the misrepresentation of a "pureblood" snake somewhere down the line. The person initially reproducing them can be honest to a fault, but it doesn't matter once those animals leave that person's hands. As soon as those snakes make their way out in to circulation, that is when the threat of contamination becomes a reality.

[JDouglas]

I don't think you know what <b>ethica</b>l actually means so here is its definition from Merriam Websters...

<b>1.)Involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval.
2.)Being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession.
3.)Conforming to accepted standards of social or professional behavior and conduct</b>

Clearly everyone in this forum is expressing moral disapproval and hybridization is not in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of breeding snakes. Those who create hybrids are not conforming to accepted standards of social or professional behavior.

Thus, it is an "ethical" issue.