"Chipping" reptiles

[Cruciform]

Is the use of RFID tags in reptiles common? And is it expensive to implement?

I can get my cat chipped for a small fee at Animal Care and Control, but I have my doubts that they'd do a python, let alone know how to proceed.

Just curious for the future, as I look into breeding and maintaining accurate records.

[Edwin]

Bob Clark charges US$30 to microchip any snakes you buy from him. I would assume that the process is similar to that used on cats and dogs, not sure exactly which part of the body the chip would be placed.

www.bobclark.com

[Gary D.]

I have been a strong advocate of micro chipping for a couple of years now, unfortunately it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, as has the database. I am happy to answer any questions. I have personally microchipped most all of my animals and two litters of boas.

To the best of my knowledge I have chipped more snakes than anyone else in Canada, and am the only person to micro chip all offspring.

As far as location, neonates are implanted within the body cavity, aprox two thirds of the animal's length. Adults should be chipped aprox 60-75% of the body length on the animal's left side, at the first row of dorsal scales. This is the standard set up by Bob Clark, which I choose to follow, and is consistant with standard locations for other animals, thus is most likely to be found by vetranarians.

[Cruciform]

Thanks for the info :)

Is your database site down, or is it troubles at this end?

---
-edit-
Ah, it's my stupid ISPs proxy. Doesn't allow underscores in URLs. How dumb of them.

-edit-
Turns out from reading the documentation for the Squid proxy/cache that it doesn't allow underscores in domain names because they violate the standards documents. There could be other who are unable to view the site because of this as well.


Cheers.

[marisa]

***eeerrrr edit..most all questions were answered by reading your website! Thanks****

When you micro chip a cat or dog, you are normally then included in a database such as petnet or something similar depending on who the vet uses or your request I guess....

Who exactly has a database for snakes, and who can really read these chips? I think its a GREAT idea...I am just a little confused as to who could read them using what, and what database...a personal one? A country wide one?

Thanks for your info! I think its a great way that people can start identifying things permanently and have a way to prove ownership if need be, I can assume its first purpose and the best part is being able to track lineage.

Marisa

[Cruciform]

Or for tracking a disease. Could be very handy.

[Gary D.]

All vets and most animal shelters can read microchips, as well as individuals who own readers like myself. The database is a private database, for thr reasons described on the site, and was designed to be national.

In Canada I am the only current database exclusively for boids. Avid's pet track will naturally register all species of animal with the AVID chip, but that is only a lost&found type application, not a genetic tracking system. In the US there was the AMERICAN BOA REGISTRY, but I believe they may have shut down due to lack of interest.

Due to initial lack of interest the web based portion of the CDN database has not been implimented. But the structure of the database exists. Once a set number of animals are participating, I will further initiate the web based member's area.

[Cruciform]

I'm interested :) Just can't get there.

Did you design the database structure yourself, or is there a good prefab db/interface for breeders?

I was planning on setting up a mysql server with a PHP front end for personal use, but if the tools exist that's one less think to burn brain cells on :)

[Gary D.]

I have designed mine myself, with input from others such as quarter horse abd cattle breeders registeries.

Thanks for the tip I will work on relocating the page. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Any intrested parties I will e-mail or pm the info if you cannot access the site.

[Cruciform]

No proble :) I didn't realize the underscore's would be an issue either. in the main part of the domain name, yes, but for a sub-domain I didn't think it mattered.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey Gary,

Not to steal your thunder, but chipping or PIT tagging is used widely in wildlife research, and I know researchers in Canada who have chipped hundreds and hundreds of snakes. Some of our native specimens are PIT tagged as per MNR requirements.

Implanting the chips isn't a difficult procedure. They are injected with a large bore hypodermic syringe. However, they are not injected "into the body cavity"- they are subcutaneously implanted. Also, although Bob Clark may have a way of doing it, his location is not a particular standard. Locations have varied from under belly scales or both left and right sides. Not that I would disagree with a standard, but I've seen no evidence of it existing as yet.

One thing important to understand- PIT tags are a great way to identify specimens but they are not tamper proof. They can be removed, reinserted into other specimens, etc.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Dom]

I agree with Jeff.. I hav a few friends that worked and still do for the mnr and have done hundreds of pit tags ...

I myself have found several taged black rat snakes in the Murphys Point area.. there set placement seemed to be about 15 scales b4 the claoca on the side .. and it was subcutaneously implanted as well ..

Its a great idea though .. but there would need to be a large interest in order for it to be in every herpers collection.. It it was not so expensive to do .. i'd defenetly tagg my breeders and babies..

Dom

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hi Dom,

I'm sure Gary didn't really mean that it is in the body cavity, I think he just misspoke.

Although it isn't really expensive, it is not cheap, either. Depending upon how you buy them, tags can cost $8-10 each or more. For all colubrids and some smaller boids, you'd have to raise the offspring to a size suitable for tagging. Therefore, this will only catch on where there is a lot of interest and enough dollar value to the animals to make it worthwhile. For many species, pattern ID is just as reliable, and cheaper.

Also, there is the cost of the implanting kit (not much) and the reader (several hundred dollars?).

I'm quite sure I'll never PIT tag baby corns! Maybe if I was breeding some rare python... I think I'll stick to tagging only what I need to for MNR purposes.

Maybe I'll offer a new product, though- Jeff's PIT tagging services!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Cruciform]

The cost should decrease substantially over the next couple of years.
Walmart's movement to RFID, and subsequent requirements for it's distributors to do the same will popularize it the same way they got UPC codes accepted 20 years ago :)

Major tire manufacturers are putting them in tires as well in order to track inventory. Imagine linking that system to a toll road? Your tires would would act as the transponder on the 407 :P

Though the cost of the chips is about 5 bucks US now, it's expected that they will drop to a nickel each before the end of the decade :)

[marisa]

It's amazing how much the little chips and stuff actually costs considering when you take a dog or cat in (at least in my area) you are paying between 40-80 dollars just for one.

Marisa

[Jeff Hathaway]

Mostly what you're paying for is the 'installation service', Marisa. Think how much it costs just for a small animal check up! Vets have high costs to cover.

Cruciform- do you have any links to what you're saying about the future of these tags? I'd love to do some further reading!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Cruciform]

Jeff,

A good source for info on them is www.slashdot.org

You can search the older archives for RFID related articles. They have a link to one in today's stories too.

There's been a lot of coverage of RFID among privacy advocate sites because once it's widespread you could practically track a person where ever they go.

There are even sites on how to disable the chips woven into clothing or other items. Pop 'em in the microwave for 10 seconds and fry the transceiver :)

[Ontario_herper]

I picked up a handy tip from a snake researcher here in Ontario, this past summer. From what I know the "standard" way to PIT tag is by going against the scales (eg: inserting towards the head). It is slightly more difficult but inserting toward the tail actually improves your chances of the tag NOT coming back out of the snake via the hole of entry. Because of course the way a snake moves the "standard" way of inserting makes it more likely that the tag will fall back out again.

This is not so much a problem with captive snakes but with wild snakes a lost PIT tag means lost data (and wasted time and effort).

[Gary D.]

Jeff, you may have missed the point of my posts. The discussion was regarding herpetoculture, not field study. Field study is a completely different area. Certainly there others that have chipped more animals in that application. I agree that in field study there is no standard implantation site, many researchers also implant intramuscular in the neck muscles, just behind the head. As I stated, the site I chose, which coincides with Bob Clark's is more consistant with accepted sites for domestic use, which this is, and thus is more likely to be found by a vetranarian or technician. Consistancy within the hobby is desireable. However I suppose you are correct in that I should have stated, regarding implantation sites, that I use and recommend...

Subcutaneous implantation is only temporary and will eventually be lost due to shedding in snakes, thus is not desireable for the intended purpose in herpetoculture. This has been witnessed by myself and is supported by AVID Canada. Intramuscular is the best permenant method. In addition it leaves a noticeable lump as you have observed which is definately easier to remove. Implantation within the body cavity was not in error, this is the best practiceable implantation site for small snakes, such as neonate boas. In addition to not leaving noticeable, (and undesireable when selling offspring), it is virtually impossible to remove other than surgically. Also the wound should be sealed with a surgical glue. The methods I use have been discussed as a group and first performed with a close friend and herpetologist, my vetranarian and a representative of AVID Canada.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify.
GD

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey Gary,

Actually, I was making a bit of a joke about the numbers thing:-) So much is lost in the translation...

I did say I think consistency is good, just that I haven't seen any evidence of it yet. There's Bob's way (which you're following), and various others, but no wide agreement on which is best.

I'm not sure I agree regarding subcutaneous implantation, etc. If it is between the dermis and the muscle tissue, there is no reason for the tag to be lost through shedding. Injury, perhaps. Maybe the problem with this is that some people don't actually get it deep enough. I've seen snakes with tags in the field that had persisted for 6-8 years, and I'm sure there have been longer records. The researchers have put a lot of effort into figuring out the best ways to do this and they want the tags to last for the life of the snake. I can see intramuscular working as well. I don't think I'd want to be implanting into the body cavity proper (as in inside the ribs) as there are lots of vital parts in there and it is difficult to know what you might hit. Are you really putting them within the peritoneal membrane? I would consider this to be way more invasive, and a surgical procedure which should be done by a vet. To me the risks would outweigh the benefit of not having the chip be noticeable. Just my opinions, of course, and I welcome the discussion, as I will be investing in a reader and implantation kit this year- we have more snakes of our own to do now, and presumably lots more in the future.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Gary D.]

You are correct that it is an increased risk, and definately could be considdered a surgical procedure which should not be taken lightly. The first five animals were done together in my vet's office. There is definately a proper way to do it and erring can have dire consequences, however I have not had a death yet.

If you are considdering investing in the equipment, I recommend contacting Cathy at AVID Canada. She has been with me on this since day one and will happily sell to breeders. I suggest not investing in a kit as such, simply acquiring a couple of "syringes", "needles" and bulk chips and sterilizing yourself, rather than spending the, money on the one time use equipment, or implantation guns. Each needle is good for about five implantations. She can also set you up with a used reader which will save you big bucks.

Gary

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey Gary,

A used reader would be cool! I have been considering investing in the stuff for a couple of years now, but resisted spending the money. Definitely I'll be getting the bulk chips/syryinges/needles rather the single use stuff. I've used the bulk chips in the field and am quite comfortable with them.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Gary D.]

The Avid Canada people are great, I can get you the phone numbers ( Toll-free Phone: 1-800-338-1397 Fax: 403-263-2055) They are located in Calgary, so getting you the stuff would probably be next day.

[Cruciform]

Now if there were lessons available around here it would rock :)

I wonder how many I could stick i my arm for practice. :P

[Jeff Hathaway]

Cruciform,

If you want to come up to Orillia, or join in the May Pelee Island trip, I'll show you how to do it (subcutaneously, that is!).

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Cruciform]

That would be cool :) what's the dates on the May trip? I'm under a work related travel embargo 90 days prior to May 14.

[Jeff Hathaway]

That sounds unusual! The Pelee trip should be May 22-24 this year.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Cruciform]

Cool :) Is the info on your website somewhere?

We have an industry show in May so deadlines are critical. Other times of the year it's much more flexible :)