The Horrible IBD

[SnakeLovers]

We had no idea where to post this, but we really need to get everybody's opinions/views on the situation.
It all started about a month and a half ago when we discovered one of our ball pythons acting very strange, she had no control over her neck/head. So we took her to the vet, to be told that she MAY have IBD. We got her some medication incase that wasnt the problem with her, only to find that 4 days later she died. We then took her to the vet to get an autopsy done ,she was checked by 2 different vets (they sent brain matter, and other internal organs to be tested). A week later we get the results back, they come out positive for IBD. We have now lost 3 of our snakes to this, and the rest are soon going to be victims. The vet told us that this disease came from the breeders stock, meaning the mother or father would have been the carrier.
We have talked to the breeder about it before coming here. We were rudely brushed off and told it was our fault!
You'd think that being a well known breeder, "they" would have at least shown some consideration towards the situation, but instead just denied the fact that we were sold a snake with a horrible disease.
I don't see how this is fair to us at all, we've put everything we have into our snakes, and now we're going to lose it all from one snake that was supposed to come from a reputable breeder.

Thanks for your time,
SnakeLovers

[boa]

Sorry for your loss.Who is carrying this in canada?
We all need to know?
Did you get your money refunded?

[marisa]

If it's true that your snake would have contracted this from the breeder (i totally do not know but hope some experts will comment on that) and the breeder blows you off still, I think a thread on the Canadian BOI is MORE than called for so the rest of us can protect ourselves.

Marisa

[Linds]

Wow... I think this is the first case I've ever heard of in Canada. Sorry to hear about it. How long did you have your Ball Python before it started showing symptoms? As you know with all the other animals that have been affected, it is highly contagious, meaning that it doesn't have to only come from the parents, and in the case of pythons, it certainly wouldn't have been passed down that way. Pythons cannot be carriers as they have a very short lifespan once infected, whereas boas can carry it for quite some time. Do you have boas in your collection? Do you have actual proof that this came from the breeder, or are you just going on the vets word? Is this breeder specifically in pythons? If they do not have boas in their collection, it is highly doubtful it came from them.

If you wish to disclose the breeder's name, as Marisa stated, please take it over to the CBOI ;)

[dean85]

wats up
do u have any other snakes>
and what breeder did u get it from?

thanx dean

[BoidKeeper]

We will need to see copies of a letter from the vet(s) confirming that it was indeed IBD before we go on a "witch" hunt. Please make sure you don't sell any of spring from any suspect animals as this is a leading cause of transmission. Any way of scaning the vet documents and then posted them as a jpeg or something?
Cheers,
Trevor

[snakehunter]

whats the CBOI, pm me with the name of the breeder please
sorry for your loss, i lost one to IBD too, it is a horrible thing to watch and know theres nothing you can do.

[BoAddict]

canadian board of inquiry

CBOI

[BoAddict]

oh and 1 more thing what if the person doesnt have access to a scanner?

[One More Herper]

What is IBD?

[Cruciform]

http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html

You can read some about it here.

[Big_V]

Inclusion Body Disease. Its like a retro-virus basically like AIDS.
Check out this link.http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/wildlife/IBDINFO.html
Cheers,
Ryan

[Scales Zoo]

I'm not an expert on IBD either, but I'm glad Linds brought up the boa / python thing.

I've heard, to check your boa collection for IBD, one of the things some people do is to put a ball python in the room. If there is IBD, the ball will expire quickly.

My personal opinion, is if it is infact IBD, you did not buy the ball python with it.

Are the vets really sure it is IBD? IBD has beeen misdiagnosed before.

Ryan

[BoidKeeper]

Ryan the ball would have to be in physical contact with the boas. It's transmitted through bodily fluids much like aids. Mites is one of the leading causes of the spread of IBD. So if you have a boa that has it you could have a ball in with it for a long time with out anything happening if your collection is clean and free of mites.
Trevor

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

SNAKELOVERS:

We are sorry to here of your lose to the circumstances you stated and if its a breeder situation as well and they are not honoring up to it, that is a shame as well.

If you have other animals (boids) start separating them into quarantine groups and medicate if possible in control environments to observe if all can carry this out and if it is IBD in each situation. If all you have is these animals from this one breeder in your collection you have started the process of gaining the right information for your claim. If you have purchased other animals from different locations and breeders you will need more positive information for your claim. As BOIDKEEPER said get a copy of what the vet stated in digital format via a scanner or take a photo and have it listed into the net on all forums you use as your proof of your stated comments. Get copies in written format of the breeder dismissing your claim, get copies of anything proving your purchase of that breeder confirming these ball pythons are from there location, emails, receipts, and shipping records. In simple terms prove your claim on all factors and from there the community will understand your claim and stand by you and black list this breeder for there negative ethics of business practices.

Many factors come into play on your situation and you simple have to prove there is in no way this is your fault. I know it sounds hard but reality is if you have been wronged you deserve to be compensated as long as your claims are 100% solid. Because anyone can make this or any claim against a breeder and breeders know this is part of the business, your only choice is serious documented proof from beginning to the end.

Well that is my 2 cents, sorry if I offended anyone, and great if I taught anyone to be more cautious on making animal purchases.

Cya...

Tony

[BoidKeeper]

Great advice Tony, very proffessional. Follow this advice and you should have no more worries.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Katt]

I was under the impression that there was no cure for IBD, much like AIDS.

IBD in Canada? This is REALLY scary.

[BoidKeeper]

You're correct there is no cure.
Cheers,
Trevor

[tHeGiNo]

Maybe it is just me, but I am piss scared right now. I think we all have the right to know where you are located and who the breeder is, so we can take the proper precautions. This is no joke.

Being in Southern Ontario, this is a very big issue. I am not sure on the details on how IBD may be transferred, but I hope you are taking the proper precautions as well.

[Katt]

I'm with you thegino. Pretty darn worried here. I don't have to deal with boids, but regardless the whole idea is scary!

[tHeGiNo]

Not to mention, I think the breeder also has to obligation to come fourth and inform us and the customers themselves on who he has sold too, where he has been, etc. This is a pretty serious matter. Also I am not sure on how it is transferred, so if someone can clear up on that it would be much appreciated. \

or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed).

That is a quote from the website provided, however I haven't an idea what aerosolized secretions is :D I now understand it is transferred like AIDS, so that allows me to relax a little. Phew.

[BoidKeeper]

uh, do we have proff yet or just a persons post? When I see a copy of the vet report then I'll be urging for the name to be posted on the BOI. You can get it on this site through PM but as soon as it's posted in an open forum it will be removed. There's no need to put any of that stuff here now that we have a Canadian BOI.
Cheers,
Trevor

[SnakeLovers]

Ok we did ask for everyone’s opinion but for those of you that don’t believe us that it is IBD then the vet we went to is located in Burford, you can go talk to him we have are proof were watching are snakes drop of one after another isn’t that proof enough? Also if all of you guys think it’s from a boa then we have a problem. We have one boa in our collection! So if you believe that it is from the boa then that’s from one breeder witch is still well known! If you believe it’s from the balls then it’s from another breeder! but it is from one of these two breeders!

Snake Lovers

[Cruciform]

Can you post the name of the vet? Thanks :)

[Dark_Angel_25]

can someone post a link to the CBOI? I don't know it... also, Snakeslovers, if you have the proof, then yes definately post it on the CBOI... but as you said Boas are the carriers... amybe you should have a biopsy done on your BOA to see if he is the one that actaully has it. and then maybe that explains why the balls are dying....

[Cruciform]

Here ya go :)

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=614

[Jeff Hathaway]

I'm no expert on IBDV but you can be sure I'll be doing some research on it shortly! But SnakeLovers, it doesn't come down to what we believe, but what is scientific fact, and and what is provable.

I'm willing to take your word that snakes are dying, but before putting out information that could massively harm someone's reputation I would want to see something more concrete. A posted copy of the vet's report would be a good start.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[sapphire_moon]

If you don't have a scanner take pictures of it, and get them put on a CD.

[BoAddict]

i dont understand why they have to proove anything to anybody
all they were doing was telling everyone that it is present in canada now and that the vet said that it came from the breeder
whether that is the case or not that isnt the issue, they havent named names yet.

now why would everyone be worried if your snakes act normal then dont worry, if they start to show symptons then start to worry.

and as far as i know there is no test that can detect IBD in a living snake anyway, you can only do a test on a dead snake this is just my understanding, if there is a test that can be done on a living animal then post and all that are worried then go get it done , but as far as i know there isnt 1.

mike

[Jeff Hathaway]

I wasn't suggesting that they need to prove anything, except if they decide to make statements that would name the individual(s) involved, as was requested by many other people. Personally, I hope they would display proof, and name the breeder on the CBOI as this is a very serious disease and well worth quite a bit of our attention to ensure it doesn't spread.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[tHeGiNo]

now why would everyone be worried if your snakes act normal then dont worry, if they start to show symptons then start to worry.

Problem is, once they start showing symptoms then its too late.


Personally, I hope they would display proof, and name the breeder on the CBOI as this is a very serious disease and well worth quite a bit of our attention to ensure it doesn't spread

Yep, exactly. Also your right, the only test that can be done requires a dead animal. Thing is, once we know who it is from and their general area, we know where and who to avoid in order to prevent bringing it into our collections.

[BoAddict]

so gino why stress your self there is nothing you can do about if you have it and you dont know it, if you practice proper quarentine anyways.

all im doing here is playing devils advocate here

personally i wouldnt worry about it, hell i better start worrying that i have aids now coz an ex has hiv see where im coming from


:-)

[tHeGiNo]

so gino why stress your self there is nothing you can do about if you have it and you dont know it, if you practice proper quarentine anyways.

True enough. It just helps to know who is carrying this disease, I guess, so you know what and where to avoid.

[Dozer]

Better extra safe, then sorry.

[dean85]

wats up eveyone
so did we find out who the breeder is?
this person could be sellin sick snakes and not know it
please let me know who this breeder is

thanx dean

[BoAddict]

the breeder has been told and he/she responded negatively until these people spill we are in the dark

[Velvet Science]

Here's what everyone would be wise to consider:

First, Linds made both a refreshing and scientifically proven point that has yet to be achnowledged since on this forum. Linds reminded us that a ball python with IBD did not necessarily get it from it's parents. Having dealt with IBD personally, and done much research with vets in both Canada and the U.S, and such breeders as Pete Kahl, Tracy Barker and Jeff Ronne, questions that immediately arise for me are namely- how many other snakes are in the collection? When was this snake last in contact, via physical contact OR sharing of any cage accessories (i.e. poop scrapers, water bowls, newspaper, hemostats- yes, EVERYTHING!) with other snakes? When was the snake purchased from the breeder (as ball pythons are believed to only survive a month with the virus)? How did the vet determine the SOURCE of the pythons IBD (for an incorrect determination suddenly compromises his original diagnosis as well)? Also, since dirty hands can even be a potential point of transfer, what other snakes/collections has Snakelover been in contact with?
Until these questions are thoroughly and honestly answered, no critically thinking individual can freak out and point fingers, or we will end up with what someone has already referred to as a "witch hunt". The potential damage of such a hunt is no less violent than IBD to the hobby. For if all it takes is for one person to make a yet unsubstantiated claim in order for everyone involved to start hanging the noose, then this community is far to fragile to sustain itself in the long run. For as unfortunate as it is, a simple fact is that a persons name mentioned in a negative context sticks- even when the claim is later undermined by the truth.
For the sake of all that is good in this hobby, in this community and in the keeping of snakes themselves, i beg you all to be responsible, intelligent, critically thinking human beings. By all means ask questions, do your research, and inquire more deeply into the matter at hand. But don't make any assumptions, and certainly DO NOT take any action until you fully understand what is fact and what is fiction. Snakelover, disease in a collection is never a fun thing. There is, however, a lot to be learned from it, and hopefully an opportunity for all of us to become better keepers as a result. I hope that you will make a supreme effort to better understand IBD and to isolate the source of IBD in your collection, for you and everyone else as well.

Tyler

[marisa]

I think "hanging the noose" is very far from where we are at this point. LOL.

My question is, this person said they have one boa as well as other snakes but it didn't seem like they have tons of snakes. If all these snakes were purchased recently in canada, one of them has this...then where did it come from? It can't just pop out of nowhere in someones house right?

Marisa

[Scales Zoo]

Good post Velvet Science.

I was going to make a similar post, you beat me too it and did a much better job than I would have.

I also noticed it was mentioned that other snakes are also dying. It seem as if the disease was transfered to other snakes, so who is to say that the first that died is the one responsible.

To name one breeder you got a snake from at this point, would probably later seem like a really bad move.

Ryan

[sketchy4]

I am so sorry for you with this situation you have come across SnakeLovers. Remember that time heals all things.

[Cruciform]

It would be nice if the original poster came back and provided some useful information.

And not the name of the breeder, definitely not at this point. This could ruin someone's collection or life's work from the wrong assumptions.

1) Types and numbers of snakes.
2) Vet's report.
3) Quarantine procedures relative to ALL snakes in the collection, including timelines.
4) What disinfectant procedures were used.

[BoAddict]

velvet - for this reason alone i think this is the reason that the breeder has not been named.

i personally wouldnt name someone unless i was 100 % certain of who it was.

im hoping that they do 1 more thing and that is put the 1 boa that they have down and get it tested as this will limit the possibilities of who or where it came from.
if the boa came back with saying it had IBD then it could mean that the balls transferred it to the boa or the boa transferred it to the balls it just prooves probable doubt.
should the boa come back clean then it limits the possibilities of where it came from and then the question is this....

if the 1st snake to die is that the breeder it came from ? or could a snake that is healthy now be the main cause of the disease?
(being just say BP's) or (just BOA's)

i hope snakelovers get all this sorted and dont give up on this hobby due to this 1 bad experience.

Mike

[BoAddict]

just 1 more point if you follow the BOI american forum this is what can happen when you name names read the post labled
" http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/index.php "
we dont want this to happen in our community

Mike

[Scales Zoo]

Live snakes can be tested for IBD, so says the MK link above.

Ryan

[BoAddict]

this is a quote from the ABOI
" it is called a carrier. It is the "HIV" of snakes
Just like hiv....it can kill.
Just like hiv....it can be carried for years. without adverse effects.
UNLIKE hiv.......there is no blood test for it. "

Mike

[tHeGiNo]

You know, now that I sit down, relax and start to think, I realize how stupid I was in seeking the source of this ball python, or where it was from. Who is to say that one of the boa constrictors is the source of the IBD, and it just managed to be transferred to the ball python recently?

I think what should be done now is the person with this case of IBD, snakelovers, should sit down and think. Think of all the people they have baught snakes from. Think of all the reptiles they have come in contact with. At this point, inform all these people what has happened, and to keep an eye out on their animals.

[Scales Zoo]

I will admit I am not well researched on IBD, It has never been much of a concern, that sounds likely to change.

The live snake reference I mentioned, came from a link provided in an above post. I do not know if this link is the best source of information - hopefully someone who knows more about IBD can comment further.

http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
Frequently asked questions:

Q: Can the disease be diagnosed in live snakes?

A: Yes...through blood testing ("For hematologic and plasma biochemical determinations, 0.6 ml of blood was placed in each of three microtainer tubes containing lithium heparin. All samples were submitted for hematological and plasma biochemical determinations within 30 min after collection. Whole blood examination included RBC, WBC, differential WBC, and determination of PCV, and Hb concentrations. Plasma biochemical analyses included determination of concentrations of sodium, potassium, chloride, carbon dioxide, urea nitrogen (BUN), creatinine, calcium, glucose, phosphorus, total bilirubin, cholesterol, uric acid, total protein, albumin, globulin, alkaline phosphatase, SGOT, SGPT. For comparative purposes, clinically affected boa constrictors were arbitrarily categorized as either acutely affected (<2 months following onset of signs) or chronically affected (>2 months following onset).

[Dark_Angel_25]

Scales Zoo, it can be tested through blood. I had a scare for parasites and had a fecal done, and my vet had just mentioned in passing if I was aware that Boa's are the carriers of IBD, i didn't, anyway she said that it can be tested through a blood test. I have seen others who have mentioned this as well, but my understanding is it is expensive.. this is ust what I have had as experience with my vet...

[Scales Zoo]

Thanks Dark Angel.

And from another link already posted in this thread
http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/wildlife/IBDINFO.html

To make a more rapid diagnosis, cytologic smears can be made from biopsies and stained using a modified hematoxylin and eosin (H&E) technique:

1. Fix 1 minute in 10% neutral buffered formalin
2. Stain 3 minutes in Harris hematoxylin
3. One dip into acid alcohol
4. Briefly wash in running water
5. Dip into 0.5%ammonia to blue the nuclei
6. Wash in running water
7. Counterstain in eosin for 40 seconds
8. Dehydrate in a series of alcohols: 95%-100%-100%
9. Place in xylene and mount as with a paraffin embedded section

I have found this staining far superior than using Wright-Giemsa staining. With Wright Giemsa staining the inclusions stain basophilic and may not be readily recognizable. With H&E staining, inclusions stain exactly the same as in tissues embedded in paraffin, sectioned and stained with H&E. It must be remembered that absence of inclusions in the biopsies does not necessarily mean the snake is free of IBD. In some cases inclusions may only be seen in the central nervous system, and in those cases may be few in number. The diagnosis is only as good as the portion sampled and biopsies routinely represent a relatively small portion of the entire tissue.

If inclusions are identified in any cells, euthanasia is recommended.

[Velvet Science]

In regards to diagnosis:

An interesting note is that, to my knowledge, all information available on IBD is derived from a 5 page essay written by Elliot Jacobson. You'll notice his name repeatedly in the reference list above, and others listed would be basing research on what he has compiled. The fact of the matter is that IBD is not of major importance to those who fund scientific experiments, and little, if any work has been done apart from Elliot's. If you contact him at the University above, he will personally send you a copy of his essay.
What this means is that any vet or breeder that has diagnostic info on IBD are all, literally, reading the same book. Variations in opinions most likely result from reading derivative, and at times misinterpreted, info as can be expected with any generational communication.
Talking to many vets, who in turn have spoken with many other vets and pathologists on both sides of the borders alike, i have been led to believe that the key statement in the quote above is that the absence of inclusion bodies in a biopsy does not determine the absence of IBD. It just means that no inclusion bodies, also called fat, were found in places from which tissue was taken- which is typically the liver, kidney, blood, or the CNS.
To take this back a couple steps, it's interesting to look at the nature of lab testing and virus's themselves.
Lab values, such as an increase in leukocytes, can tell the pathologist that "something" is going on- that the body is mounting a counterattack to either a baceria or virus. Other tests can actually determine which one it is. But virus's, particularly retrovirus's like HIV and IBD, are especially tricky because they actually sit INSIDE of a cell's DNA- cutting and pasting themselves within it, until the host can no longer discern the virus from itself. The body fails to recognize, and therefore respond to, the invading virus. As a result, retrovirus testing is often a search not for the virus itself, but for a syndome, or collection of symptoms that imply a viral infection. In the case of IBD, this syndrome is comprised primarily of inclusion bodies (fat), found in all the wrong places. THIS IS ALL THEY ARE LOOKING FOR. Not the virus, but fat. In fact, an IBD virus has not even been isolated yet, but researchers, based on the bodies physiological responses to some kind of microbial invasion, feel they have every reason to strongly believe in just such a virus. Because other factors could possibly cause abberant fat bodies, there are even some people who do not even share the scientific belief in IBD's existence. That point aside, it is important to understand that an informed vet, who has actually done his research an not just consulted their garden variety Veterinary Manual, is most likely to tell you that IBD cannot be positively confirmed by any means other than a full necropsy.

Tyler