Why Belly Heat is Necessary

[tHeGiNo]

I thought this would be an exceptionally interesting thread, as I have often heard that snakes necessitate heat from their belly (ie. heat pads). So basically, here is what I am questioning: to 'bask' a snake retreats to a rock, tree stump, tree branch etc. under the sun. The sun was hitting this spot directly and is therefore heated. However, once the snake is on this particular area, is the heat not absorbed? It would make sense to me that once they are on the particular basking spot, the sun is no longer hitting the item in question, and is now hitting the snakes back.

My understanding, actually my reasoning, behind this subject is that if they require belly heat, they move to a different basking spot once the heat on the surface they are basking upon is depleted. Is this the way things work?

I am seeking some clearance on this, so that I may have a better understanding. Thank you in advanced for all your replies, and lets keep this informative and lacking any name calling.

[tHeGiNo]

I forgot to mention, we are speaking terrestrial snakes here.

[ReptiZone]

Well tHeGiNo if take a good look at a good portion of Terestrial snakes they are all on the darker side. There for the soking the rays. so yes you they will seak out a basking spot lika a rock or a log that is more on that warm side simply cause they know that the sun will be beaming on them now instead of the rock. So they can use heat and digest cause because looking at the shape of the snake you can see that there is an equal distance from the heat from above and the food and the heat from below and the food cause the food makes the snakes body round a bit. so all areas are the snake are equale.

[Invictus]

I agree with Marc. In fact, when a snake has a significant lump in their belly, they actually get MORE exposure from above than they do from below. Because the stomach has expanded, there is just as much in contact with their back as their belly, so if snakes do bask when digesting (I was under the impression that most snakes, or most colubrids anyway, hide after eating, because they become more sluggish and vlunerable), it's probably because they get both the belly heat and the overhead heat. Can't get more efficient than that.

[Tim_Cranwill]

But think about an partly cloudy day. The rock they've found to bask on will retain a good portion of the heat even if the sun is behind the clouds for 5 minutes. Overall though, I would think that 90F, for example is 90F anyway they can find it, i.e.; shade, sun, rock, stump and etc. I don't think they would discriminate one type of heat over the other. I think they would just find the proper temperature to achieve what they need to achieve.

I've built racks with heat under the bins = belly heat, and racks with heat up the back = ambient heat. I must say that I feel more comfortable offering the belly heat but my more logical side says "it's the same either way as long the proper temps are offered."

[marisa]

Yeah I agree. How can heat from above or below be different? Heat is heat is heat. But I am eager to see other responses as for all I know, I may be way off on this one. But sun is from above, and the earth does cool slowly...making one think belly heat is used a lot! But who knows....snakes bask out on roads too.

I personally do not like lights only because for most my snakes it makes humidity a pain, and I have to either get red bulbs or throw a timer on them, then ad a heat pad at night. So for me, heating from below works better overall. But I have used lights in the past, and I haven't really seen much of a difference aside from my own amount of maintanence. If I had all overhead lights, I don't think I could have as many snakes as I do now.

Marisa

[rwg]

Rocks (not so much branches) have a very high heat capacity. That means that 1 gram of rock needs a lot of heat added to raise it's temperature 1 degree. So, a warm or hot rock surface has a lot of heat in it. It also means it can give up a fair bit of heat without lowering it's temperature very much, so the rock the snake is on will stay warm for quite some time while the snake is basking. Besides, the snake can simply shift position whenever necessary.

It seems to me that a basking snake (on a rock anyway) is getting both kinds of heat. What they actually need I wouldn't presume to say.

Roy G

[SerpentLust]

I have always used red bulbs, more for my comfort because I've always been confused with something about heatpads...You have the heatpad on the bottom of, for now, we'll say an aquarium. It sticks to the bottom and you plug it in, most safely to a dimmer. Then you have your thermometer on the tank (I'm mostly talking about people who don't buy the thermometers with the probes) like I'm talking about the one that sticks to the back of your tank and is circular (like the zoomed precision analog reptile thermometer)....does that really accurately tell you the temperature? You have no way of knowing exactly how hot the belly area of the tank is. Whereas with the red bulb, it IS giving off Ambient heat and that's what those thermometers are measuring!

I've always been confused about that.

Also, yes UTH's work on glass tanks, but how does one heat something thicker like a melamine enclosure if they're looking strictly for belly heat? These are the questions that have always thrown me back to red heat bulbs, humid hides for the humidity and a basking area under the bulb.

Answers to the questions would kick butt! lol

Jenn

[Dark_Angel_25]

Hi Serpentlust, I know in a melemine cage, you could always attache the heat pad to the smooth side of a ceramic tile, and put that inside (rough side up) just make sure it is on little feet to allow air to get under the pad an avoid overheating... it has worked wonders for friends of mine, and I belive Dragon Drop has done something similar for her leos.. she has pics on how-to in her gallery!

[Auskan]

Originally posted by SerpentLust
I've always been confused with something about heatpads...You have the heatpad on the bottom of, for now, we'll say an aquarium. It sticks to the bottom and you plug it in, most safely to a dimmer. Then you have your thermometer on the tank (I'm mostly talking about people who don't buy the thermometers with the probes) like I'm talking about the one that sticks to the back of your tank and is circular (like the zoomed precision analog reptile thermometer)....does that really accurately tell you the temperature? You have no way of knowing exactly how hot the belly area of the tank is. Whereas with the red bulb, it IS giving off Ambient heat and that's what those thermometers are measuring!
Jenn

Jenn, you don't have to stick the analog thermometer to the side of the tank. I just have mine resting somewhere on the heat pad itself (inside the tank), right where the snake would be lying, and can fairly accurately measure the temp that way (I realize that they can be up to 5 degrees off, but I still think its a pretty good way to tell what temp the snake is feeling when he/she lies in that same place).

[marisa]

Those circular thermometers sold in stores are CRAP for accuracy in my experience.

Placing them on the side of the tank will give you the temp for a snake living sideways. Not a snake living on the ground. Even when using lights, sticking them to the side is pointless.

With a UTH you (never use the sticky stuff for one) place it under a tank. You can lift the tank up slightly with bottle caps or furniture feet caps...then turn it on. You use a probe. or the circular one if you must, placed directly on the "hot spot" inside the tank.

Marisa
P.S. heating pads or heat tape generally have no problem heating up through custom enclosures. But all of these items (heat pad or tape) should ALWAYS be controlled with a thermastat or rheostat.

[Invictus]

Want to see something interesting with those round thermometers? Put 5 of them side by side. You'll have 5 completely different readings, ranging about 5 degrees. They are awful.

[SerpentLust]

Haha thanks guys :) The reason I was mostly asking is that my aunt and I are writing up plans for a three tier, six enclosure unit and I'm trying to figure out my heat source. I still will probably go with red heat bulbs, that's what I'm comfortable with, and then buy the better digital thermometers. :)

[Grant vg]

Jenn,

ill reccomend something that will save you a lot of time and stress now and in the future.
if your planning on building a six cage unit, you should REALLY consider building each cage seperate.
Say for example your building 6 3x2x1's....build them seperately and strong, slap a heat pad / heat tape under each cage, put all of the plugs into a power bar and use a 500W thermostat to control everything to your set temperature.
This way you avoid wiring for lamps, having one cage degrade quicker then others, etc...
i speak from experience... been there done the massive unit before. its a b!tch to move....
this way you have the choice of stacking all 6 high, 3 beside 3, etc... good for quarantining new animals in different rooms, etc..

even if you decide to heat with bulbs...id advise building seperate stackable units...plus individual units are always easier to construct then a large unit in one piece,

just my opinion though... :D

gvg

[Lisa]

I have to agree with grant vg on this one. My experience has been that a 4x2x1 is heavy on it's own, nevermind making a giant enclosure. It generally takes 2 of us to lift one 8x4' sheet of melamine and a 4x2x1 uses most of a sheet of melamine, you're probably looking at 2 or 3 sheets for that enclosure you're thinking about.


We use the exoterra pads on our custom enclosures, they work great.

[SerpentLust]

Hahaha Lisa and Grant, funny thing is, before I read your posts, I was discussing building it with my mother, and we both came to the conclusion that building 6 identical units would be the best way to go about it. :)

Glad to see the experienced cage builders agreeing with my logic lol

Jenn

[tHeGiNo]

Ok guys, lets get back on topic here, heh. Basically, I have always heard the term belly heat thrown around with importance. Also, there has got to be a reason that all the big guys use heatpads rather then overhead heating for their snakes. This is what I am trying to get at.

Jeff I remember you expanded on this before, get in here and post!

[Grant vg]

ok...i personally dont believe neither is better nor worse. like, incubating eggs, as long as the humidity and temperatures are correct, everything else does not matter.. heat from the top, side bottom, is still producing the desired effect. ...heating the snake.
ive used both heat tape and heat panels. And other then the fact that the heat panels produce a heat much more like in nature (eg. heat rays) theres not much difference.

I really like the heat panels for high humidity species... after spraying, the air truly feels like a tropical environment...rather then just a wet cold one produced when using heatiung from beneath.
Now, are they any different for the snakes??????
or do they prefer one over another....well....try and ask them...lol

i think belly heat has been more excepted because its usually less of a fire hazard, easier to maintain, less wiring, more convenient, usually less wattages used, and benefits the breeders who wishes to use alot of stacking and rubbermaid racks.
And since more commonly used these days, perhaps its just become embedded in our minds that its more beneficial.
So my stance is that it doesn't matter as long as the correct temperatures are achieved.

What i have noticed in larger enclosures using heat panels, is that the snake has a much larger choice of temperatures.
90 on the hot spot, then it gradually decreases (88, 86, 84, 82, 80) as it moves to the cool side.
Where as with most heat pads/heat tape heated cages...the temperature a few inches off the heat pads is exactly the same as 3 feet away (ambient).

Hence, my choice to have switched to heat panels. It gives more choice to the snake.

grant vg

[Scales Zoo]

I pretty much agree with what Grant VG said.

We use many different sources of heat, we use some heat tape where it applies.

Grant touched on ambient temperatures and humidity. From my experience, that is the key to keeping boas and pythons happy.

I have a feeling, that many people who use heat tape have too low an ambient air temperature. You know, 75 degrees ambient temp, 95 degree hot spot. The air the python breaths should be warmer, and I use a variety of under heat, side heat, lights and radiant sources - as well as a higher room ambient to create that.

There are many ways that work, do what works for you.
So your question "why belly heat is necessary"
It isn't

Ryan

[Jeff Hathaway]

Not much I can add to what Ken, Tim, Grant, and Ryan have already said!

Except, as before, warm air rises, so using heat lamps to heat something underneath them is tremendously wasteful compared to using a heat element of some sort underneath the object. And the farther away the heat lamp is (i.e. bigger cage) the worse it is!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!