Nursery Cages?

[K1LOS]

How important is it to have a "Nursery Cage" for young chameleons? i Have built a large cage suitable for a full grown panther, but it will be 2" svl when i get it. The cage is 4x3x2. As far as i'm concerned it seems like it would just be extra space for the cham, but i have heard of keeping them in smaller cages. Wouldn't the size of its enclosure fall under "the more the merrier"? The only downfall i can forsee is trouble catching its food, but if i cup feed it shouldn't be a problem right? your thoughts?

thanks for the info!

Geoff

[Bighead]

I had problems finding my adult veiled in his 6 foot tall cage. Not that big of a deal, but it was a little scary sometimes. If you cup or hand feed it I think you will be ok.

[Collide]

Just make sure that he has acces to enough food and it should be fine, as well as small enouph sticks to grap ect...

[meow_mix450]

put lots of sticks, not to big, or its not able to grab hold of it. Cup feeding should be fine, if it doesnt eat if all, leave a cup near the bottom, with a branch beside make sure it wont fall, both the cup and the branch, ahrd to expalin, leave it in there for an hour and take it out. this is just wut i do, and it works for me

Meow

[dank7oo]

Kilos,

Despite much of what has been said, a nursery cage is absolutely essential for your chameleon. 1. It will be hard for you time find him and keep track of his progress. 2. Falling from a high at a younf age is certain death. 3. Many young chameleons wont cup feed until mature, and therefore you must free roam the bugs; your cham will never find them in such a large cage. 4. As youngsters, the cham has to be at 10-12 inches form the UV lamp at most throughout the day. I could keep going, but I think I made my point.

Jason

[Sean Day]

I have housed all young chameleons in their adult cages from the day I bring them home. I would free range the crix, a young panther should actively search out the food.

[meow_mix450]

hmm thats weird how big is a adult cage to you??? people just have different sized just wondering

Meow

[Sean Day]

3-4 ft. Why do you find it weird?

[meow_mix450]

nah its because i just havnt heard a little guy, grow full grown living in an adults cage....hmmm 3-4 feet ya that might explain why.....never heard that before, my adult panther only likes 5-6 foot tall, cages:( doesnt like any smaller), what kind of panther???? ya your right, young panther should be able to hunt for there own food.

Meow

[tHeGiNo]

I am curious as to how many babies those giving advice have produced in order to bestow that manner of counsel? Quoting a few breeders who have bred several different chameleons, it is perfectly fine to do either or. Basically, it is upto your own discretion. Weigh out the advantages and disadvantages and take it from there.

I just wanted to mention that falling from heights is not a certain death. Infact, I have seen quite a few chameleons dropped from adult arm height, onto a hard floor (ie. tiles, laminate, etc.) and be perfectly fine. Of course with such a surface you risk breaking a bone or two. The point is, with the proper foliage, and possibly a substrate to soften a potential fall, there is not that much of a risk. Afterall, chameleons are born climbers, and have prehensile tails for a reason.

Also, chameleons in my opinion are much better off when they are not cup fed. Free roaming the bugs is much more beneficial. And they certainly will be able to forage for their own food. In any case, they do not have cups in the mountains of Yemen where they are native to. Nor do they have their parents hand feed them. Hunting allows for excercise and helps encourage their natural instincts. I am sure they will be able to hunt out their food.

On another side note, I agree with what Sean Day has said. A four foot cage is absolutely acceptable with panther chameleons. Of course, as with just about any reptile, the bigger the better!

[Sean Day]

Very good post TheGino!

I do not consider myself a expert but have raised 5 different panthers and a few others over the years from baby to adult in their adult cages. I have never seen a healthy panther fall for no reason, but have definitely had one fall while handling. In my experience panthers do not do the drop and run thing when scared like others I have kept.

I used to follow some chameleon lists closely and this question came up a few times. The more experienced (not self proclaimed experts) would always say if possible put them into their adult cages.

I really don't think it matters which way you go, but why spend the money on a extra cage if you don't have to. Personally I loved standing there for a half hour looking for them only to find them in front of my face. LOL

Sean

[tHeGiNo]

LOL Sean that is one of the more enjoyable parts of chameleon husbandry, trying to find the dang things! LOL!

Most definitely though, thats what I forgot to touch on. The chameleons I had saw fall were ALL the result of handling. I too, have never seen a healthy chameleon fall.

Nor have I seen a healthy chameleon, or any lizard at that, sustain injuries from crickets. It has only been the sick, unhealthy individuals.

[DragnDrop]

Going by my own experience, I'd say it's okay to house a baby cham in a large cage. My panthers were housed in 'large' cages from the day I got them. They were 5 weeks old which I know was a bit young but I wanted them out of the store, and I'd had experience with raising baby chams so I knew I could make it work. They both had their own 4'h x 3'w x 2'd cage to start off, and had no problems finding their food. They had free roaming crickets as well as suitably sized grasshoppers, wax moths and roaches, just to name a few. Both of them thrived, learned to hunt their prey and never missed a meal because they couldn't find food.

I also raised 3 clutches of Jackson's Chams. Each clutch was housed in a 90 gallon size screen enclosure without them having trouble finding food. After they were about 4-5 weeks old, each clutch was moved to a cage 6'h, and 4' sides. One clutch was 14 and one stillborn, another had 18 and 2 stillborn, the 3rd clutch had 15, one stillborn, and 2 died within hours of birth. All of the babies thrived, none had trouble finding food in that large cage. They figured out where the basking spots were within hours of being put in there.

As long as they have the proper environment, and enough branches/sticks to get where the heat, water and food are, they should have no trouble in a large cage.

Chams will drop to the ground as a means of evading predators or other dangers. They're not the best runners, but can make a fast get-away by dropping a few branches lower, to the ground or even into water below (they're fantastic swimmers). It's not advisable to let them drop or fall unnecessarily onto a hard floor, but there's no need to avoid using a large or tall cage for babies to prevent a fall.

Wild chams survive in the largest 'cage' possible. Even though ours aren't wild, they still have the same instincts, and know that they have to hunt for food and water, and hold on to the branches for dear life.

You have to make your own decisions, no one can decide for you.

[Sean Day]

Originally posted by DragnDrop
Chams will drop to the ground as a means of evading predators or other dangers. They're not the best runners, but can make a fast get-away by dropping a few branches lower, to the ground or even into water below (they're fantastic swimmers). It's not advisable to let them drop or fall unnecessarily onto a hard floor, but there's no need to avoid using a large or tall cage for babies to prevent a fall.

Hi Hilde

Did you ever have your panthers drop and so called run (lol) thing? I don't ever remember seeing my panthers do this although I am sure they could. I did have a male montium that would drop to the ground from the top of a 4 foot cage everytime I walked into the room though.

A little of topic from this thread but I think it was you that posted your outdoor cham cages on KS quite a long time ago. If you still have those pics would you mind reposting them here? I remember it being a fairly informative thread, and getting good ideas from the pics.

Sean

[meow_mix450]

yes i have to agree with gino, it is the best way feeding them free roam criekts, a lot of chameleon do enjoy the hunt. I dont like little chams living in such a big cage, from the beginning, but 4 feet is a good size from baby to adult. this is just how i feel lol.

Meow

[Sean Day]

Meow

What makes you feel that 4 feet is alright but 5 or 6 isn't?

Sean

[choriona]

The only thing I would be worried about with a bigger cage is not being able to provide the right conditions for the young one. Smaller chams have a smaller body mass to exposed skin ratio, meaning that they can become dehydrated faster than a larger cham. Also lose heat or gain heat faster. Big chams have more meat than skin, to keep it simple. They are better equiped for variations in temperature and humidity. If you live in a very dry cold place like my house is right now, it would be impossible to have the right ventilation plus humidity.
I guess my advice is - if it is your first cham and you don't know their characters and behavior cues, i would start out in a 20gal tank. (I put up calendar pics around the glass so no confusion is made trying to catch prey thru the glass.) If you don't have an aquarium handy, a rubbermaid container of similiar size is quite easy to set up. This way you can watch your cham easier and get to learn what its colors and postures mean. You can modify the temp and humidity very easily to ensure the proper contidions are being met. It is essential to have a hygrometer and thermometer!
On the other hand, if you have delt with chams before, starting it in the adult cage would be fine, since you should have a good handle on what your cham is feeling.
As for feeding in a large cage, if you keep all sticks off the ground, the crickets should be limited to the area just on the bottom of the cage. Make the sticks close enough that the cham can shoot its tongue all the way to the bottom.

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by Sean Day
Hi Hilde

Did you ever have your panthers drop and so called run (lol) thing? I don't ever remember seeing my panthers do this although I am sure they could.

A little of topic from this thread but I think it was you that posted your outdoor cham cages on KS quite a long time ago. If you still have those pics would you mind reposting them here? I remember it being a fairly informative thread, and getting good ideas from the pics.

Sean

The only time I ever saw any of my chams 'run' was when I had to do some re-arranging in the herp room. I accidentally knocked an empty 90 gallon tank over, and it smashed into a million pieces. The chams ran, but so did every other living thing in the room at the time :)
If they have to, panthers can move pretty fast. My female loved stick insects, and she'd put on a burst of speed to grab them as soon as I put them in the cage. But none of them ever fell and got hurt. Even if they missed the branch with their feet, they'd still have the tail to grab a hold of a branch. Falling is generally a controlled manouver, done on purpose. Years ago on one of the cham lists (possibly CJ, but I can't be sure right now), falling chams were a big debate item. The final outcome using info from the people who really know, was that any cham that falls accidentally is sick, has muscle or nerve problems, old or possibly dying. A healthy cham has 4 feet and a tail to grab a branch, and generally there are enough branches on the way to the ground that he's bound to connect properly with one.

The outdoor cage is kind of OT for this thread, but since you asked....

I've got one picture in my album showing the outdoor cage.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/502/321outdoor_cham_cage.jpg

It's 6 feet tall and just slightly shorter on each side, built over a corkscrew hazel. The leaves are very large and crinkly, great for holding water for drinking, and big enough for an adult panther to hide under. The misting is done with patio misters (sold for cooling humans in summer), producing a fine mist as you can see in this picture:

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/502/321cham_in_the_shower-med.jpg

[meow_mix450]

sean, im not trying to pick on anyone here, this is just my opinon lol, what im trying to say is that a little panther or veilded should live in a smaller cage, and no bigger then 4 feet. Like choriona said bigger the cage, more it needs, like he would get dehydrated faster. Thats all im trying to say. but if you get a 6 feet cage for a little guy, its gonna quite hard to find the panther if self, and let alone finding its food....thats just in my opinon, im not against yours, in anyway

Dragndrop that is a very very nice cage, i love it:)

Meow

[Sean Day]

Meow
I didn't think you were trying to pick on anyone LOL. I just think there isn't much of a difference husbandry wise between a 4 or 6 foot cage. I also think if it can find food in a 4 foot well then why not a 6. I am always willing to change my opinion which is why I asked.

Hilde
Thanks for the pics, kinda thought you may start a new thread LOL. They already have me thinking of summer projects.

Sean

[meow_mix450]

lol srry, its just so hard these days wut people mean.

Meow

[Collide]

I have used a smaller inclosure in the past for babies and the one and only reasion i did this was to keep the little crix in the cage. I do not think that a little guy in a big cage could get dehydrated, babies tend to be heavy drinker and will lap up all the water they can get, so as long as they are getting watered they are great. I raised 2 batches of baby veilds in a large screened enclosure and was very happy with the results.

Aslo Like gino and sean said they wont get harmed if they fall, they ribs are made of cartalige not bone for this reasion.

I think your babie will be very happy in that big cage!

[K1LOS]

Thanks for all the info everyone, i have decided to go ahead with the large cage. I think with a little more effort on my part i will be able to provide a nicer home for the little guy. I am having trouble with my humidity. 30% is my norm 8( . obviously it will go up after i mist, but that only lasts like a 1/2 hr. I will start this topic in a new thread though! thanks again

K!LOS

[dank7oo]

Take a look at E-zine. They have proper care for young chameleons. Don't just beleive me or anything when I say stuff ;)

Jason

[tHeGiNo]

Take a look at E-zine. They have proper care for young chameleons. Don't just beleive me or anything when I say stuff

I think it was made quite clear that falling isnt too large of a risk with chameleons. Very valid points were made: ribs are made of cartilage, falling is one of their natural defense mechanisms, they have prehensile tails which assists them greatly for this exact reason, etc. I think it is more of an issue that you need to take things you read with a grain of salt, and that not all caresheets are right.

With lots of foliage and with a substrate, I can guarantee your chameleon will be fine. Falling is DEFINITELY not a certain death, I hope E-Zine didn't say that as well. I think this goes to show that experience is much more valuable then regurging other peoples information. I don't mean to be rude, but it demonstrates how caresheets are not always right. I mean I could post here and say that chameleons are snakes, but that doesn't make it true.

[dank7oo]

E-zine says a nursery is essential for the proper care of young chameleons.

Jason

[tHeGiNo]

This is a direct quote from AdCham (E-Zine):

An appropriate sized cage for neonates would be approximately 24" x 16" x 16" or smaller. Too large a cage makes it difficult for the babies to find their food.

Firstly, I do not see anywhere where it says a smaller cage is essential for the proper care of young chameleons. All it says is a smaller cage allows for the babies to find the insects easier. With the proper precautions, this wont be an issue. As I mentioned, they have areas a lot bigger then two feet in the wild. Also keep in mind that the caresheet in question is written generic for all chameleon species. A two foot tall cage is a lot bigger for a Brookesia minima newborn as to a Chamaeleo calyptratus.

This is why it important not to quote caresheets. You often find items exaggerated a great deal, such as falling from a large cage is a certain death, and small caging for neonates is essential.

[dank7oo]

It still says the proper size cage for a neonate is ... and the dimentions. I wouldn't risk it, but I suppose it is your $200.00

[tHeGiNo]

Hey, I am sorry but if you don't understand what we have been telling you, I won't bother. And I still don't think you are getting my point. The care sheet is generic. I am not saying you have to use a large cage, I am saying a small cage is not mandatory, and that a fall does not mean death, and that falling isn't that common in the first place.

But if you see online caresheets as the one and only way to do things, then thats fine too. Especially a single caresheet directed at every single species of chameleon. Thats like telling me its fine to keep a full grown eight foot boa constrictor in a two foot cage with sand, because thats what Kenyan Sand Boas need. If you hadn't noticed, the only reason it suggests using a smaller cage for neonates is to ensure they are eating. Which shouldn't be a problem anyhow.

[Sean Day]

It really doesn't matter what e zine says. I think enough people have proved with their own experience that it can be done safely and your cham can thrive.

[meow_mix450]

everyone has there opinion

Meow

[tHeGiNo]

Yes, they do, however it is a proven FACT that chameleons will and do thrive perfectly in large enclosures, and that a smaller enclosure is definitely NOT essential to their health. Calcium intakes, yes. Small enclosures for neonates, no.

[meow_mix450]

no im not saying that they wont thrive, but dank7oo perfers smaller cages and move up i beleive correct me if im wrong. Where did you get the "fact"? a chameleon that is around 4cm long wouldnt,be to happy in a 4 foot cage, if i was to put one in; there i my self wouldnt find this guy, i just wonder how they are gonna find the crikets. Connie sells panthers at a really young age, but i just dont like 4 foot cages for baby panthers, not against it, but i perfer smaller cages, then slowly move up, so it would be easyer for the little guy to find food. NEVER said that they wont thrive in a large enclosures. Wild baby chameleons has a large forest, to roam, but rememeber these are CB not wild. I bet most chams die in the wild. and only 5% lives, this is jsut a guess i could be wrong, but im just saying, both yours, and dank7oo is right

Meow

Meow

[K1LOS]

come on everyone, we don't need the hostility. Everybody stated their opinions, i took the information provided and made my own decision. I will watch the cham closely, and should i see the need to use a smaller cage, i will move it. Thanks for all the advice from everyone. In the future, it would be nice if we all tried to keep the posts about information, instead of squabling. Thanks again everyone, i'll keep you posted when the time comes.

Geoff

[sleddergirl]

Just my opinion, I don't really think this thread has a lot of squabbling?! Some opinions were stated and some who didn't agree, questioned the belief system.....I see nothing wrong with that. When opinions are requested (in a question) then people are going to have different answers. If someone says something that I don't necessarily agree with or understand, I can ask them why they think that way. For all we know, opinions can be changed based on logical answers.....like I said, I think opinions can be questioned without hostility.

[Collide]

I think the issue is that if ur posting your opinon that is great but make sure that what u say is fact, is fact. :)

[sleddergirl]

Originally posted by Collide
I think the issue is that if ur posting your opinon that is great but make sure that what u say is fact, is fact. :)


Agreed............. :D

[tHeGiNo]

but dank7oo perfers smaller cages and move up i beleive correct me if im wrong. Where did you get the "fact"?

It is a fact because myself, and several others on this site as well as several other breeders I have spoken to have had success with large cages. Don't get me wrong, they use small cages too.

a chameleon that is around 4cm long wouldnt,be to happy in a 4 foot cage, if i was to put one in; there i my self wouldnt find this guy, i just wonder how they are gonna find the crikets. Connie sells panthers at a really young age, but i just dont like 4 foot cages for baby panthers, not against it, but i perfer smaller cages, then slowly move up, so it would be easyer for the little guy to find food. NEVER said that they wont thrive in a large enclosures.

With no disrespect intended, and please do not take this in a bad manner, but you are speaking from the experience of one chameleon which you have not had for long now. I am speaking from my experience and several others that they are perfectly content in large enclosures, and do not have problems locating food.

By the way aside from this, I wasn't saying you were saying anything wrong. I wasn't referring to you.

is jsut a guess i could be wrong, but im just saying, both yours, and dank7oo is right

Again I don't mean to be stuck up, but dank is NOT right. He said chameleons falling is a certain death. And small cages for young chameleons are NOT essential. Those are facts.

[meow_mix450]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
I am speaking from my experience and several others that they are perfectly content in large enclosures

Yes i understand that, and so is everyone else, and i have a baby chameleon(veiled) living in a small encloseur, and hes fine.....Even though a lot of people here may be more experienced, doesnt mean i cant have my part of say(you didnt say that but, im just pointing it out) what info, i give is from my experience, and what i herad from experts from this thread/site. The person that was here(trace) i thought was an expert she knew a lot about chams, i would come on everyday to read what she says, she has been wrong from now and then, but everyone makes mistakes. Ive read care sheets, talk to cham owners and read books. By doing all this, i get experience and knowledge.

What i think dank7oo meant was that, a 4 foot fall, can hurt the cham, possibly breaking a bone, which will lead to death, if not taken care of. im just guessing....But anything is possible

Meow

[meow_mix450]

opps srry, yes he did indeed say its a certain death, and yes usual it isnt a certian death, srry

Meow

[Collide]

the FACT of the mater is that smaller cages haver there bennifets, easy access to food, easy to find. they also have negative things too, more cost because u have to upgrade.

Large adult cages the same... bennifets, no upgrading, lots of room
negatives.. may be harder to find food (which can be dealt with), cham could fall its possible (although unlikely and not that much of a risk because they are designed to servive falls.)

its up to the person asking the question to make up there minds, both sides of the coin have to be looked at.

Its hard to read some things and not combat them.

[meow_mix450]

ya it is, cause ones got another opinon lol! and they just keep going trying to convice people that there chocie is better, but yes your completly right on this, both cages are good, and both of them can be bad, nothings perfect

Meow

[dank7oo]

LOL .... theGino, don't speak on MY behalf. I am approaching 6 years of experience, and I personally have had 2 neonates break bones and die from falling from larger cages. Again, you can do what you want, but I'm 2/2 with pleanty of climbing branch and foilage (one in a fiscus). So from MY experiances, a smaller cage is better to start.

Jason

[tHeGiNo]

Yes i understand that, and so is everyone else, and i have a baby chameleon(veiled) living in a small encloseur, and hes fine

Thing is, I never said small cages are not effective. Infact I said they were. I am just saying, they are not essential to their health.

LOL .... theGino, don't speak on MY behalf. I am approaching 6 years of experience, and I personally have had 2 neonates break bones and die from falling from larger cages. Again, you can do what you want, but I'm 2/2 with pleanty of climbing branch and foilage (one in a fiscus). So from MY experiances, a smaller cage is better to start.

So you got your first chameleon when you were 10? Yet you still were unable to keep a healthy chameleon and had one get to the point of EBD last year? If you have had two neonates fall and break bones, then you have not been keeping them properly. I have never seen or heard of a healthy chameleon falling from a tree. Also, after six years, you are STILL quoting caresheets?

Lets make it very clear here. I am NOT talking extremes, I am saying both methods are effective and work.

[tHeGiNo]

Also if you don't mind I would like some more information on your two neonates that died. Heh.

[marisa]

I don't know much about chams but could anyone (on either side of this arguement or whatever it is) tell me why a chameleon would fall? I am actually curious, not asking because I think they cannot ever fall so don't give me any lip. LOL

It doesn't seem to make sense. I literally cannot pry Gus off a branch if I wanted too, and with five different points of grabbing (four feet and tail) I can't personally understand how a healthy one would fall????

Marisa

[Sean Day]

Originally posted by meow_mix450
ya it is, cause ones got another opinion lol! and they just keep going trying to convince people that there chocie is better

I really don't think anyone has tried to say a large cage is better then a small one. All I am trying to say is it is not essential for a young chams health to live in a small cage.
If you or Dank7oo believe it is, does that mean everyone posting from experience is lying?

It doesn't seem to make sense. I literally cannot pry Gus off a branch if I wanted too, and with five different points of grabbing (four feet and tail) I can't personally understand how a healthy one would fall????

Marisa[/B]

Exactly

[choriona]

Marisa - I think a cham might fall if it is not healthy. When a cham is really sick, it does not have that strong grip. Or if it had MBD and has fractures all in its legs.....and falling in that condition would definately break more bones. When the hatchlings that aren't ment to make it are slowly fading away, you find them on the ground of their cage. They are literally listless. They cannot grasp anything, so they could have fallen..
OR, you can have the drop and run defense that was mentioned before. One time I was out walking the dog and took my cham for a ride on my hand (we did this often)....Well, she saw a plane in the sky and thought it was a bird or something because she LET GO of my fingers and infalated her body like a parachute and fell to the ground. She landed perfectly on her feet and started to dart for the bushes. IT was really funny. She did not hurt herself and didn't break any bones. I have also seen this reaction where their tail grabs something on the way down.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by marisa
I don't know much about chams but could anyone (on either side of this arguement or whatever it is) tell me why a chameleon would fall? I am actually curious, not asking because I think they cannot ever fall so don't give me any lip. LOL

It doesn't seem to make sense. I literally cannot pry Gus off a branch if I wanted too, and with five different points of grabbing (four feet and tail) I can't personally understand how a healthy one would fall????

Marisa

I second that, Neo's the same. It takes ALOT of work and trickery to try and get him out of his cage. His last vet visit we were late cause i couldn't get him to loosen his grip up, plus all the added hissing and lunging. Also i never see him move without his tail holding on to something or trying to.

I don't know how babies or juvies would compare against adults in the ability to grasp a branch (or act like neo and hold on for dear life) , (I got my only cham as an adult), could someone try to explain.

[Sean Day]

Originally posted by drewlowe
I second that, Neo's the same. It takes ALOT of work and trickery to try and get him out of his cage. His last vet visit we were late cause i couldn't get him to loosen his grip up, plus all the added hissing and lunging. Also i never see him move without his tail holding on to something or trying to.

I don't know how babies or juvies would compare against adults in the ability to grasp a branch (or act like neo and hold on for dear life) , (I got my only cham as an adult), could someone try to explain.

To me there is no difference at all, they all hold on with 5 different points. As long as you have properly sized branches, vines, dowel, or whatever you use they shouldn't fall for no reason.

[Collide]

I have seen one of my chams fall once it was funny she tryed to reach for this branch and lunged but failed fell but did a tarzan thing and swong of a nother branch her tail cought (excited over food lol). Falling is not good sign all around, unless because of some of the defence reasions stated above by others.

[tHeGiNo]

Marisa - I think a cham might fall if it is not healthy. When a cham is really sick, it does not have that strong grip.

Perfectly said, choriona. Thats exactly it, generally a cham that falls is an unhealthy one. Should they fall, as I was saying, they have prehensile tails for a reason.

[dank7oo]

Also if you don't mind I would like some more information on your two neonates that died. Heh.

yes i was 10, and bug off

meow and brandy and wm and gf .. .i'll be emailing you all later

[tHeGiNo]

May I ask why you are lying? Let me clear a few things up.

Take the time to read this thread please.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17623

Interesting. So, you have been keeping chameleons for two years. But you started with chameleons six years ago. And had two die from falling six years ago. Interesting, definitely interesting.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17717

Six years dealing with chameleons, yet you still didn't know what WC or CB meant? Maybe its a possibility, strange though.

Now it gets more juicy.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17684

Here, you clearly say you have never dealt with neonate chameleons before, and it was your first time.

I guess its lucky that I am bored as ever, so that I had the time to do a little research. Now comes the question, why lie? From the looks of it you were trying to back up your own theories, rather then accepting that you were wrong.

[dank7oo]

This forum has fallen apart since trace left. In all honesty it was good till all you mindless ******* fell under the god 'gino'
im done here you bunch of worthless bastards.

[tHeGiNo]

LMAO! It was definitely nice meeting you. It is too bad you couldn't accept that you were wrong :(. Guess I didn't mean to take it that far, but I guess the newcomers are better off without people giving them false information as fact.

I hope this is not what you do any time you are wrong though. It's unfortunate, as I did see you as an avid chameleon collector. The funny part about this all was that a lot of people agreed with me, and with what I was saying, but couldn't find it in them to say anything. Fortunately, I could :).

[marisa]

DankZoo you are insulting, whiney and frankly if you cannot function normally like a human without Trace here, maybe you should be the one evaluating if you can handle the internet.

People disagreeing with you doesn't mean the forum is falling apart. GET OVER YOURSELF and either give advice you feel is right, stick with it, and let others do that same, or just go away.

Just because one person doesn't agree with you, you insult everyone in the thread, call people names and act like a child. Sad. Very sad. Why not grow up, and function like a normal person just like everyone else? This thread is TOTALLY 100% GREAT...WHY? Because their is discussion and debate. You are the only one who can't handle it. Here...http://www.dictionary.com .....thats a link to look up the definition of "debate"

Also I love have you whine and complain about how bad this forum is, then you go name calling (which no one but YOU did) and personally attacking people, which is against the TOS I believe (which no one else broke, but you)

Marisa

[tHeGiNo]

On a nicer note, though, I would like to apologize for coming off so hard on you. However, I think giving wrong information to individuals seeking health is a HUGE issue here, and something that needs to be nailed directly on the head. It is way too common, and honestly unecessary.

[marisa]

" This forum has fallen apart since trace left. In all honesty it was good till all you mindless ******* fell under the god 'gino'
im done here you bunch of worthless bastards."

I also like how we cannot even question your advice without being called "bastards" Frankly I hope you get a mod pming you about your abuse of this forum and the people enjoying debate.

Marisa

[Sean Day]

Well this went downhill pretty quick. Unfortunately a good thread will probably be shut down now.

[meow_mix450]

NO ONE!!!!! was wrong o.k he made a mistake,everyone does, i know your not talking about me, but hey i knew dank7oo when i came to the forums, and things look like they are falliing apart, trace and dank7oo has helped me a lot

The gino; do you have any pics of your cham??? i just want to know what you have kept? I dont want to hear what your friends have kept just you, youve been on this siite for a year, and ii have never heard you sayiing you have a cham, ii just find that weird

This is not always about experience, some is about opinion, and i think hes askng what your opinion is, if you think its nesscary to have a nursery cage or not, and me and dank7oo believe they do.

I have been trying to avoid this thread, untill you keep asking questions, and trying to prove me and dank7oo wrong, didnt think he was wrong, sometimes a baby cham will surive, but if not checked to see if its o.k it can die from the fall.

Kilios(spelling) wanted to end this thread as well, and so do i. He picked his choice and now ii want to end this...

Meow

[Matt_K]

I'm going to close this thread, i won't move it as i think there is SOME pretty good info in here.. Dank7oo, if you don't want to be here, by all means, leave.. Just don't make a production about it, no one's going to buy tickets..