A Few Questions...

[Kimo]

Ok before i get started here, i'd just like to applaud everyone here on Ssnakess for their wealth of information, i truly enjoy reading over the many different posts (although i do not actually reply to any) and learning as much as i possibly can, with that said and done time to open up a debate here in regards to Enclosures...

First off, i understand alot of herpers have a problem with varying substrates from sand to whatever, and i understand some of the reasoning behind this, and have heard 100's of times now "Our job in keeping herps is to eliminate potential dangers that these animals encounter in the wild. such as impaction and varying other sorts of problems...now, me being new to long term keeping of herps (used to field herp locally and keep varying snakes and amphibians for a few days/weeks for study, then release) i have obtained a KSB and have had it now for about 2 months, and YES i house my sand boa on a very fine grain sand, now before the flame war ensues in regards to my substrate of choice, i do feed him outside of his housing in a deli cup where there will be no risk of impaction due to the sand, however, i feel it is also my job as a herper to make sure that the animal is not stressed! is this not correct? wich is one of the reasons why i've created the most realistic home for him as possible! wich would be one of the reasons why i decided on on the substrate, and keep in mind this was after careful reasearch on the paticular enviroment that they are native to!, now this also leads into my next question....after viewing varying enclosures on the forum here, i must applaud some of you, in your creativity, and passion for herping, some of the enclosures i've witnessed on this site almost brought a tear to my eye in joy, knowing that that paticular animal that has the pleasure of living there, would be most lucky!, HOWEVER! i must say, just from my point of view, that some of the enclosures i've witnessed, our down right HORRID! A plastic tupperware container with paper towel???? and you can't go telling me that the animal is not stressed! now i know i cant go saying that the animal is stressed, cause quite frankly untill they develop some sort of mood gauge thats acurate, we wont really know, but i have to ask what possess some people to house in these short lil tupperware bins resting in a rack system? would not just the smell of a different animal cause stress? (assumeing diff animals are being kept together in these rack systems) but i want everyone here to keep in mind these are just questions!!!!!!! i do not mean to attack how obviously some of the more experienced herpers here conduct their buisness! i just had to ask these questions, cause i almost want to CRY when i see this 3 foot snake being housed in this tiny tupperware container resting in one of these rack systems!

and i suppose this where i end off, and let the flame war aimed at me begin!


Just a curious herper!

[mykee]

First off, if you wanted to start an intelligent conversation regarding enclosures, without a flame starting, why would you say this:
"...that some of the enclosures i've witnessed, our down right HORRID!"
Hardly seems like a question to me. What are you trying to start?
What about;"...and you can't go telling me that the animals is not stressed"
Again, not a question.
Lastly;"what possess some people to house in these short lil tupperware bins resting in a rack?"
And you DON'T want to start a flame?

[ReptiZone]

Well I know you do not realy understand the consept of a large captive collection. But we wount hold that agains't you.:D

Now I am gona explain several diffrent things about Reptiles that you may not think of.

- #1) I am just gona guess your KSB was c/b if it was most good breeders use the rack system so there for your Ksb does not know the what sand look's like B4 you bring it home.

- #2) Snakes do not have sweat glands there for do not give of any smell that is why I laugh at ppl that say my animals Stink they have no smell if your does it is in fesperat need to have a 100% cage cleaning.

Using your Logic jus having a pet dog wander the living room that a Boa lives in even if the snake can not see the dog it is stresed caus it can smell the dog.

A snake only Realy smells when the defecat or urinate and it stays for a few days. now sticking to your Keep it natural methods even if the snake in the rack just above smells his neibour fecas for a few hours till you do your rounds it will not go crazy man the whole Jungle and so on is just on big toilet LOL. That smells like $#!t.

and if the smell of fecas stress the animal man you better leave the room when you have to pass gas. Cause News Flash your
$#!T stinks just likt the rest of ours. so to creat a stress free enviorment you need to tka a shour and hop in a air tight suite cause you are an animal like your dog and I would not want the snake to smell you and get stressed. you see my point here.

- #3) Now a Rubermaid rack is the best thing since sliced bread they are 100 times easyer to control temps and humidity if you have an animal like you do that will not climb then why wast the space? Man you could house 50 baby KSB all indavidualy in butter bowls and stack them in a rubermaids for easy storage. Cause they just don't use the space. Man I have a 8.5 foot-9 foot Burm in a cage that is 4 feett long X 2 wide and 1.5 foot tall and she stayes in the same place all day and night I see her push over from time to time when she is digesting(I am moving her to a 6 X 3 X 2 in a few monts) man I threw a 15+ foot female Burm in a 8 X 4 X 4 decorated it up the my teeth dam thing picked a corner a stayed there for a week I actualy satyed over night and watched her *as I played Game boy* and she did not budge. I could sit in the other end of the cage a read a book with a feamle Green Anaconda thhat was the same size and the cage was just as big. She would come and investigate and then go back to sleep in her same corner *don't try and steal her corner cause the all #3ll will breaks lose.

-#4) Rubermaids are 100 times easyer to keep clean to ensure proper and clean living conditions. while you are fighting to see where all the piss and $#!t is in you well decorated enclosure I have cleand and paperd 3 Rubermaids with clean water dishes and fresh water. You pull the rubermaid out check it for any signs of defecation if you find some you place the snake in a fresh clean a paperd Rubermaid with a new water dish and put it where it belongs clean the one you have in your hands re-paper it and find the next dirty Rubermaid and do the switch takes 2 min tops all this with you are still messing around with your pooper scooper.

-#5 Rubermaids are tight and compact they are like virtual plastic caves with water and food comes for the sky...LOL how amny sanke have you found that you did not have to lift somthing to see it verry few I am guessing they like it compact they are comfertable when there body is touching all sides. You need to realise This is a Snake not a golden retriver that nees 10 achers of land to run and play fetch in. It is a Snake the less of you they see the better.

-#6) yes maintaning a realistic enviorment if fun I do it from time to time but I put a w/c animal in that kind of cage cause they react better and show less signs of stress some times I set up a cage and it is the bebst thing I have ever seen then I throw a blanket around it so the animal canot see the out side world there is mulch a huge water dish like 5 times the animals size so it is like a mini pond and there is branches galore rock's on the botem of the water dish so it is like the forest you name it it is done and it looks like a work of art but no one sees it cause I just want the animal to adapt to life in captivity and I slowly reduce the luxuriese till a rubermaid is all that is needed and they are feeding and sheding like clock work.

well that is bit of Info I will let you think about it and reply. so we can debat some more.

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron

Ps: sorry for my gramare. I know I suck. :rolleyes:

[Derrick]

great post Marc. informative and amusing

[Bartman]

I agree, very well said!!
From what i see, i have not seen one "horrid" tank on ssnakess and if i have then it has been quickly changed or tweaked for any mistakes (unless the person is just stuborn)

[One More Herper]

Excellent Post

[Kimo]

well thankyou for the responce, i found it quite informative however, i have a question in regards to the "sweat glands" remark, i dont know about sweat glands, and i'll take ur advice on that, but dont snakes taste scents in the air with their tongue? surely a snake must give off some sort of smell, no? or would the snake be literally blind to the presence of another snake in their vicinity if they could not see it?, and please forgive me in regards to my attack on rubbermaids! i was just under the impression a more natural enviroment, for a WC or CB animal would be better than a rubbermaid, that was just MY assumption anyways, yes you are correct it prolly does take me longer to clean my cages than it does you, however i have absolutely no problem doing spot checks every day to make sure its a clean enviroment (just call it my dedication to keeping my lovely pets! :D ) and in regards to your snakes in their cages that dont move, im not gonna say thats wrong, cause every animal has its own personailty traits right? thats why we love em! mine however i have found are super active! my leos for example constantly run around climbing up on the rocks, basking out in the open (i do have hides turned away from viewers so that they can escape if thats what they wish) and even my KSB seems to like to explore alot! paticularly on some of the fake desert plants in his enclosure (likes to perch himself intertwined on some of the leaves) and is perfectly content to sit there for a few hours befor moving on to the next spot! i mean perhaps my snake is the oddball! wich wouldnt surprise me!, or maybe im doing somthing wrong in providing this kind of enviroment, perhaps you could comment on his activity? i heard that KSB for the most part are super lazy and just hide in the substrate all day long!, any point of views are more than welcome!

Kimo

P.S. im sorry i should have clarified about the "horrid" statement in my eyes it just brought a frown to my face! thats all, Horrid was obviously to strong a word, and my apologies to anyone who was offended it was the farthest thing from my mind to attack anyone in general so once again my apologies

[sapphire_moon]

Horrid enclosures? Are you kidding. I try to model my enclosures from the people here! Plus it is easier to clean ONE cage than to clean 50 cages. How long do you think you would be sitting there sifting sand looking for crap if you had 50 cages of KSB?
Plus where are you going to actually put the 50 display cages of the KSB?Using a rack system is easy to clean, and saves space.

I use aspen shavings and that is great because I only have 4 snakes. 3 of which are in rubbermaids.

The snakes that most of the people have here are CB which never even know what their "natural" habbitat look like. Infact once everything gets all settled I plan on building a rack type system for my snakes.

What the snakes have is something called a jacobsons organ. It detects "smells" and puts it into "memory".
I am sure they can sense the other snakes in the room, but if you were to keep only 1 snake per room, well breeders would be screwed now wouldn't they.
But if they have a nice, tight dark place to hide, then they will assume that they are safe (I am just guessing here, so it is only my opinon).
Talk to breeders that keep rooms full of snakes, not only one kind of snake but 2 or 3 diffrent kinds of snakes sometimes. And their snakes are usually the ones that are eating great,and shedding like clockwork. So aparantly having the "scent" of other snakes around isn't bothering them.

[ReptiZone]

Thanx for the kind words ppl.

Kimo I want to clear the air you did not offend me and I doubt you offended any one here the ppl that are probebly offended are the ones that do have "horrid" cages and to me if the hat fits wear it.
and ya the sweat gland thing is real. the best way I can explain it is you can go and run a block and come home all soking wet a snake can do the same thing and will still be dry.

[Bartman]

its just like dogs dont have sweat glands...thats why they pant, you wont see a dog sweating unless it aint from this planet!!

[Bartman]

And have you ever seen a beardy bask...they will tend to open their mouths to let out fluids, same thing as a dog (its like there panting)

[sapphire_moon]

actually, the pads of their feet can sweat, I think. lol

Yup I'm one of those people with a "horrid" enclosure. 3 of them. Less than some of the people here.

[Kimo]

ok, im just curious here still, but how do we know that the animals arnt stressed "assuming" they can "smell" or rather taste the scents of other animals?, and also, i can understand some peoples obvious love and affection for their animals, but isn't so many animals more of a degredation to the care they "should" be recieving? i mean sure keeping 50 KSB all together in a rack system works out just peachy im sure, and deffinately easier to clean, but i myself like to make the animal feel more comfortable in more ways that just a clean safe enviroment! i dont mind spending 15 mins sifting through my lil snakes cage to make sure its in tip top shape every day!i want it to live the fullest life possible and stress free too! wich is one of the reason why i opted for a more realistic enviroment, although some of you might say it's just for looks!, and yes ill partially agree with it, decorating my snakes cage is like art to me, im trying to capture the essence of what that paticular enviroment was, in a cage, now isnt treating but a few animals to the very best of our ability worth more than say housing 50 or so KSB to standards that are just healthy? i dunno, im looking for input here! and for education so please argue my points!

Kimo

[sapphire_moon]

if it would get stressed out because of unnatural smells of other animals then YOU would be the main cause of stress, going into it's cage every day and such.

The smells from the paint, and carpet or wood, any animals nearby would stress them to death!

It doesn't stress them because they have a place to hide, they don't care if where they hide is a 30 dollar half log, or a .50cent ceramic plant holder with a hole in it.
I really don't think they are going to be running aorund being like "oh dear, this isn't *natural* so I'm going to stress out and not eat"

They really don't care. as long as they have a place to hide, a warm spot, a cool spot water and are properly fed, they could care less if their enclosure looks like texas or a hospital bed.


They live full healthy lives using the rack system. I've seen a few people on here post how their BP was 20-22 years old! and being kept on paper towels in a rubbermaid.

the realistic envirmonent IS for looks. Thats why it is called a Display. It is for YOUR eyes, because as I said, the snake don't care if it's on sand or paper, as long as it can hide if it wants to.

snakes are instintual animals, not thinkers, if their instint is to bury themselves they are not going to stop and say "oh no, this is aspen shavings, not sand!" and stop burying themselves. No they will keep on burying themselves or go find a hide, and still bury themselves.

Making a natural looking environment is just that, a natural looking environment. You could never really provide something all that natural with occuring storms, and predators, because hey, thats natural right, might as well infest him with ticks and mites every once in a while, because it's in nature to. They don't have sterelized sand to play in. It's NOT natural for them to be in sterelized sand anymore than it is "natural" for them to be on paper.
It is sanitary, and clean, even in the hard to clean cages like yours. No icky things, no parasites, no predators from above, nice, clean and sterile. Is that natural? Not really. But do you really want to infest your snake with parasites? throw a predator in there, or how about feed live?

No, because these are CAPTIVE animals. never seen their "natural" habitat before.
And for CAPTIVE animals it is NATURAL to keep them on aspen shavings, news print, paper towel, towels, mulch, a variety of substrates. Fake plants you can wash, hides you can wash, no parasites and if there is you can take them to a vet. It is not natural for them to get vet care in the wild!

So all you are doing is endangering your snake by keeping it on sand, what happens if it's genitals prolapse? and try to go back inside? OUCH! that seems like it would hurt!

And all you are doing is keeping it "Unnaturally" but in a more expensive/dangerous, way.

There is no way you could provide a natural habbitat for any animal unless you move to where the animal is naturally occuring and build it a HUGE A$$ enclosure outside. Because it is not natural for them to be in a little enclosure, even if it seems big to you.

[Linds]

Originally posted by ReptiZone
Snakes do not have sweat glands there for do not give of any smell that is why I laugh at ppl that say my animals Stink they have no smell if your does it is in fesperat need to have a 100% cage cleaning...

...A snake only Realy smells when the defecat or urinate and it stays for a few days.

Just because they do not have scent glands, and do not give off an odour noticable to us, is not to say that they do not smell. Snakes give off pheremones and they sure can smell eachother. Why do you think the shed of another male snake can be useful in breeding some species? The snake believes he has competetion and may even combat the skin... why? because of the smells.

Originally posted by Kimo
ok, im just curious here still, but how do we know that the animals arnt stressed "assuming" they can "smell" or rather taste the scents of other animals?

Rack systems have been utilized for breeding snakes for ages, very successfully. Now snakes will not breed if they are stressed out. Also, it is well-known that often trouble feeders and snakes with other stress-associated problems, once moved in to a rack system or sole rubbermaid setup, have begun to thrive.

Rubbermaids and racks are not new, they have been PROVEN time and time again, both by keepers and breeders, newbies and pioneers, to be a very effective method of housing snakes. Not because we want it this way, because the snakes have been proven to thrive. There is nothing wrong with wanting to maintain a naturalistic setup, and kudos to anyone that successfully does, however there is also nothing "horrid" about anyone that chooses the functional setup, and it is definitely not to say that those people do not care and respect their animals.

It is a reason they are called functional setups, they serve the needs of the animals, not ours. Display setups just take it to the next level so we can enjoy it as well ;)

That being said, it is nearly impossible to come even close to truly simulating the animals' natural environment in captivity. People say putting down a bunch of mulch and some plants is similar, well you would be hardpressed to find a bunch of loose cypress mulch in any forest with some foreign plants.

[Kimo]

point taken, but im still a bit curious as to how you can judge if a snake is "stressed" or not ? i mean if im a lil stressed, doesnt stop me from "mating" hell makes me feel a whole lot more relaxed! same with food! ( and im not taking in an emotional state either) just over all feel relaxed! and im sorry once again my first post was a mistype on my part, i did not mean to bash the rack system! i guess my lil mind can't comprehend it! and as to saphiremoons post, your right, I cant make it 100% natural! if i did! what the hell is the point in keeping herps? so we can kill em off with parisites and predators? no, that was not my point, and im sorry if i mislead you into thinking as such, my point was merely trying to provide as close to as possible their natural habbitat while maintaining a safe enviroment! no you also mentioned somthing in regards to cage size, this i understand, no matter how big, it's still not "home" to them, but i try my damndest to provide just that! and i would like to think that these snakes have some intelligence, and not just instincts!, hell being the lil escape artists they are proves that! doesnt it? or perhaps it's just the instinct to roam around free! that we are obviously denying them? let the debate rage on again! and please remember! this is merely a learning experience for me! i am completely open minded here, and am trying to learn as much as i can through this "debate" else if we didnt question eachother, how would we learn!!!

Kimo

[Derrick]

If they were stressed they wouldn't breed and thrive in captivity.

Pick out sand and urates from sand is an easy task because its easly spotted. If your snake "required" a jungle like floor that kinga stupp is likly to get missed plus you would never know if you got it all which lead to bacterial problems. It would be an impossability to create enviornment that cleanses the system naturally.

Most of the natural looking enclosure I've seen posted here we're that way because thats what the herp requires to thrive in captivity..ie Chameleons frogs turtles etc.

You've had the benifit of seeing how we house our animals. Givving you the opertunity to criticize our setups yet you havent posted pictures of your own to show us how it "should" be done.

Derrick

[Kimo]

correction, i do not believe my setup "Should" be done, and your obviously confusing this once again as an ATTACK for the like 4th time this WAS NOT my intention, i'm asking people to EDUCATE me on WHY their set-ups are as such, because "I" didn't see a reason for it! now, please go back and read some of my previous posts, paticularly my aplogies for my mistake in asking this, i understand it seems like an attack!, but this was NOT my intention, if you had read my previous posts you would have realized this! however, they way "I" see it is...I care for what few animals i have, because thats the amount i believe i can properly maintain! i dont mind doing all of these spot checks to make sure their habbitat is clean! and yes, cleaning my KSB enclosure is easier than cleaning my veiled! but such is the responsibility i took upon myself when i purchased my herps! to care for and provide to the best of my ability the best possible home for them as i possibly could! we just obviously have different views on housing thats all wich is fine!

Was Just Looking For Education Thats It Thats All!!!

Yup Yup!

Kimo

[Derrick]

First of I did not consider it an attack. But you have implied that your way is better. Yet you have posted no pictures of your own enclosures. Everything has pretty much been said on the rubbermaid side.

You want to be educated? to what end? Its not like you are going to change your setup, thats fine I'm sure there is no reason to but this isnt really a debate its just a waste of time and effort of those who've taken the time to reply. Anything you want to know on the subject could have been found by clickin http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/images/sense/top_search.gif at the top of the page

[Linds]

Originally posted by Kimo
point taken, but im still a bit curious as to how you can judge if a snake is "stressed" or not ? i mean if im a lil stressed, doesnt stop me from "mating" hell makes me feel a whole lot more relaxed! same with food! ( and im not taking in an emotional state either) just over all feel relaxed!

Well I answered all of the questions in my first post that you are asking for proof of again, so I'll try to explain it in different words :) We are very different from snakes, so we cannot base their reactions on ours. LOL... I could be physically ill and balding from stress and still "mate" like crazy :p Functional means just that, it provides all the snakes needs in an easy to maintain setup, the snakes are not particularily conncerned with how their needs are met, as long as they ARE met ;) As long as they have places to feel secure, regulate their temps, and whatever else that particular species of snake requires, that's all that matters to them - whether or not it is a rock cave or a margarine container, pond or dog dish, pvc piping or branches, and so on. The fact that some snakes will do better in racks than in glass tanks full of decorations also has to speak for something. Just because we do not find it visually appealing, is not to say it isn't every bit as sufficient to the animal as one that is. Snakes aren't concnerned with appearance like many humans are, they jsut want what works ;)

[sapphire_moon]

because YOU are not a snake. Snakes react to stress by not eating or breeding, by getting sick, or by getting nippy.

As I said, YOU are not the snake. And every HUMAN displays stress in a different way. So it really don't matter how you show that you are stressed, because how you show that you are stressed is not going to be how your snake shows that he is stressed.

[Auskan]

Originally posted by Kimo
point taken, but im still a bit curious as to how you can judge if a snake is "stressed" or not ? i mean if im a lil stressed, doesnt stop me from "mating" hell makes me feel a whole lot more relaxed! same with food!
Kimo

There is a big difference between humans and other animals. Humans are among the only animals that "mate" for pleasure and to release tension and to express emotion. Animals due it purely for procreation and only when conditions are just right.

On the feeding issue. Again, there is a huge difference between mammals and reptiles, however most animals - and even some humans! - will not eat when stressed. Humans are unique in that many use food as a "comfort source".

[Invictus]

Something I would like to add about a KSB's "natural" environment..

They are called "Sand Boas", but this does not mean that they are always found buried in sand. They are called this mainly because of the areas that they are from (Kenya, Nyrobi, Sudan, Egypt, etc.), and because they bury - however, they are more commonly found buried in the burrows of other animals. Here is a link you should check out:

http://www.**************/sandboa/housing.html

There is a lot of very useful information there. In my opinion, there is no reason whatsoever to house Kenyans on sand. It's not what they bury in in the wild, and it causes problems in captivity. 3-4 inches of aspen makes them feel just as secure, except that they can actually breathe in that substrate without having to stick their noses out of the sand.

[Invictus]

Sorry, replace the ******** above with k i n g s n a k e . c o m (without the spaces.) :)