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[wyz]

I like to ask myself silly questions sometimes and sharing these weird thoughts sometime brings interesting conversations.

Here's my latest :)

Ever calculated how pricy rat meat is ???

It's approx 1.7 penny a gram.
so .017$ x 1000 = 17$ / kg
= 7.73$ per pound

And we're talking rat meat here..
At the grocery store you can get A-1 quality chicken for 1 to 2$ a pound and less when it's on special.

In the wild I don't think all snakes only eat rodents. Some probably also go for some wild turkeys, birds, etc...

If I can get some of my snakes to eat chicken part, could it be bad for them ??? I would think that the chicken I buy for me is better quality than rodents we buy for our herps.

Ok, it doesn't "look" natural, but neither does a dead mouse in my opinion...

Ok people I'm waiting to hear what you have to say on this.

By the way, my freezer is full of dodent, I'm not realy thinking of feeding chicken parts to my herps, but I really need to put this question to sleep :)... who knows !!!!

thanks.

WYZ

[daver676]

Are you talking about the weight of rat meat specifically, or the entire rat (bone, organs etc)?

[Cruciform]

Interesting that you brought that up. When M&M Meats has boneless chicken breasts on sale you can get a dozen for pretty cheap.

Cheaper than buying rats for sure. Anyone have opinions on nutrition?


--edited for typo--

[wyz]

Davers: the whole thing... not rat "filets" :)

WYZ

[ReptiZone]

good point there daver676 I think there is actual nutriance found in the Rats organs and bones and brain abd thing like that lets not forget frozen meat at the super market is full of preservatives and stuff. Now mind you I was working at a zoo and I was preparing choped stake for some monitors and baby crocodilians.

(it was meat week for them. We did one week meat one week rodents one week insects and one week off.)

any way I fed all of the crocodilians and varaninds and I hade somthing like 2 small bowls left and the rest were full and I hate wasting food. well I hade 2 eastern indigos with a killer feeding responce I put the bowls in the next morning there was nothing to be found I only did that 2 other times then I realised there were preservatives in the meat but they did eat it.

Also My friend works in a meat shop and told me not to feed it to animals because of the dye the put in the meat to make it look fresh if you don't know what I mean go buy a 4Lbs of hamberg meat and split it in half you will see the red then all of a suden brown and you ask your self is it still good meat yes it is they just put the dye there to get you to buy it right away.

[Wizer69er]

Snakes need the bones for calcium dont they? So i would think that a rat with bone would be better for a snake compared to chicken breast with no bone just my 2 cents thats all.

[wyz]

Then I'll put it in easier terms so that there in no space for suppositions..

Lets compare a full rat with a chicken leg.. wich contains meat, bone, tissues, etc... and no dyes.. lets not talk about chicken filets or hamburger meat.. it's not what I had in mind...

WYZ

[marisa]

Well for one, chicken legs don't have fur. They also only contain, what, one bone?

Anything meant for humans is also pumped full of anti biotics, preservatives, and steriods. Mice and rats raised in home or by a feeder breeder are not.

Marisa

[gonesnakee]

Raw Chicken is full of Samonella + tons of steriods & preservatives & I won't recommend it myself. Not a natural diet by no means. Snakes are meant to eat rodents, not fillets from M&M. If ya can't afford a proper diet ya can't afford them. Some people will feed chicks, but they too are nasty dirty creatures & make your snakes just reek when they pass them. Rodents are the food of choice always. Mammals are nice clean animals, especially when compared to chickens. IMHO Mark

[daver676]

I've thought about this myself. My mother thinks that the first person who can come up with a pre-made snake food that is just as good for he snake as a rat, but comes in a sausage form (just buy the same diameter sausage that would fit your snake), would be a very rich individual.

The problem would be getting the snake to actually eat it.

[marisa]

Daver-

Snake sausages already exsist. They are ground up rodents minus fur and intestinal track I believe.

Marisa

[Cruciform]

Good points :)

Now I don't want to eat farmed meat any more either.

Anyone like to come over for a nice meal of fresh rat? :)

[Cruciform]

Imagine being paid to skin and clean mice all day?

[gonesnakee]

Daver676 its already been done. You can already buy "snakes sausages" I don't know the brand name, but they got em. They come in a can & are sausages stuffed with ground up Rodents of some type. Mark I.

[ChokeOnSmoke]

You can get fresh chickens from a farm without anti biotics, preservatives, or steriods. And if you got it fresh you could probably get some feathers on it. I have no idea about the nutritional value though.

[daver676]

Originally posted by marisa
Daver-

Snake sausages already exsist. They are ground up rodents minus fur and intestinal track I believe.

Marisa

No kidding. Has anyone ever tried this stuff? Where can you get it?

[Dark_Angel_25]

there is an article in the Herps 2004 magazine this month. I'll look it up and let you know.

[marisa]

Its available at pet stores normally.

But I believe the cost of one sausage is higher than one mouse.

Marisa

[wyz]

DAVER: It's probably as good as dead rodent, but you can be sure it is more expensive.. So what's the point if dead rat doesn't gross you out :)

CHOKE: Exactly... That's what I'd like to know because for sure we can find a good source from a farm so that there isn't any antibiotics or other stuff in the meat.


WYZ

[daver676]

Oh I have no problems with dead rodents. It's something my mother always complains about when it's time to feed the snake. "Poor little mouse", she always says.

[wyz]

lol, I hear that sometimes also from the kids :)

WYZ

[Derrick]

haha my daughter thinks thats the best part

[sapphire_moon]

On the snake sausage. I have a cousin in california that is a manager of a pet shop (he absolutely LOVES, and ADORES animals) and he said that he has had snakes come in that has had snake sausages before. They end up getting really bad bacterial infections because the casing of the snake sausage is so tough to digest that by the time they digest the case the food inside the case is rotted. So they no longer use the snake sauseages and he says that he doesn't even know of anywhere that even sells them anymore.


EDIT:

He lives in california and is in a Group that works with the ASPCA, wild life rehabilitation, and another up there group going around telling the "big chain pet stores" (the ones we are not to mention here) to fix things like cleaning up, putting proper heating on reptiles, putting proper toys in with the birds/rats/ferrets,mice/rats etc...you get my point.

And at one time this group had about 30 of these store in SanFrancisco shut down for about 3 days because they refused to update and take care of their animals!

[daver676]

Originally posted by sapphire_moon
On the snake sausage. I have a cousin in california that is a manager of a pet shop (he absolutely LOVES, and ADORES animals) and he said that he has had snakes come in that has had snake sausages before. They end up getting really bad bacterial infections because the casing of the snake sausage is so tough to digest that by the time they digest the case the food inside the case is rotted. So they no longer use the snake sauseages and he says that he doesn't even know of anywhere that even sells them anymore.


EDIT:

He lives in california and is in a Group that works with the ASPCA, wild life rehabilitation, and another up there group going around telling the "big chain pet stores" (the ones we are not to mention here) to fix things like cleaning up, putting proper heating on reptiles, putting proper toys in with the birds/rats/ferrets,mice/rats etc...you get my point.

And at one time this group had about 30 of these store in SanFrancisco shut down for about 3 days because they refused to update and take care of their animals!

I never plan on feeding this stuff, even if I could find it. Just curiousity. Kudos to your cousin and the ASPCA for looking out for the reptiles, and trying to keep pet stores in line out there. :)

[snakehunter]

the sausages are called snake steak suaages and are made by T-Rex

[Jayson]

The reason that chicken is so much cheaper is because of the steroids (growth hormone in the food) This makes them butcher size very quickly. there for making room for more chickens in less time and not having to feed as much food. Also chicken food itself is very inexspensive.

Chicken parts have less nutritional value then whole chickens and whole rats. It is true that many snakes eat bird prey in the wild, But we are not talking about wild birds or wild snakes.

[chas*e]

You can feed your snakes Chicken BUT it is full of steroids and other artificial additives for one thing or another ..not to mention if there is a problem with unsanitary handling "Samonella".....and when they do eat poultry the snake dropping stinks to high heaven...wwhhoo

[Yve]

maybe the rats are much more expensive because its 'organic' meat...they're brought up on natural and nutritious food to make them 'feeder' worthy, a organic chicken or any other type of free range, organic meat for human consumption is alot more expensive then the regular meat. Have you done a comparison to the prices on organic poultry? I think it may narrow the price gap. Although rats will produce faster than chickens regardless of food quality (and should be cheaper) I think when it comes to our pets we'll always be paying out the wazzoo!

[sapphire_moon]

not if you breed your own, I have 8 rats now (convinced to keep two pets that will be weaned next week and just opened their eyes tonight) and one more breeder. and we still have like 6 pounds of food left, from about 2 months(which the food only cost 6$ for 8 pounds)....and only 5 dollars for bedding for the last 2 months, which should last another 2 months........so cheaper to breed!

[Jayson]

Believe me i have raised chickens and it is alot cheaper then rats.
people who do it for a living feed growth hormone to make it even cheaper.
Chickens lay an egg every day that is 30 chicks a month. Show me a rat that dependable!!

[Scales Zoo]

Organically raised poultry can be a good source of nutrition for monitor lizards and a few other reptiles.

The Sandiego Zoo has a recipe they use for their monitors, ground turkey, boan meal, and a crushed centrum vitamin.

A better mixture can be made with organic varied poultry, some herptivite and repcal.

This has proven to be a good food in conjuction with rodents for a variety of monitors. People breeding monitors usually feed daily, and by using this kind of food, can do so cheaper than always feeding rodents.

I've heard of similar conconctions being used for turtles, crocodillians and also snakes, but have never tried it myself.

It is important to freeze the ground poultry in small amounts, so it rethaws quickly. It should also be fed and eaten quickly, to avoid any salmonella concerns.

Ryan

[Katt]

they're brought up on natural and nutritious food to make them 'feeder' worthy,

Many at home feeder breeders, or even "larger" scale feeder breeders use dog food as a main diet. Calling dog food natural is a joke. Have you looked in what's actually in dog food? Some real nasty stuff! There are very few high quality dog food that lack these "unwanteds" and to find these brands in Canada? Well good luck!

Feeding a rat/mouse fed dog food isn't that far off from "steroid" chicken.

However, rodents are whole foods, whilst chicken is not. Snakes need the fur and organs.

[Yve]

breeding your own feeders isn't an option for some people...whether it be space, or just simply the extra time...I personally do not complain about the cost of feeders....I have the pets so therefore I commit to whatever costs are incurred by keeping them. Cost may be inflated but I knew that before I got the pets...what works well is to keep only the amount you can properly care for....problems solved!:) and no stinky chicken poo poo for me even if it saves me a fortune!lol

[Pixie]

Very interesting topic!

First, finding the right combination of meat and vitamins would be important as a chicken leg alone wouldn't be sufficient.

Second and more importantly, getting the snake to eat it! I'm sure some snakes that eat almost anything (like my corns for example!) would take it, but I doubt that my BPs would go for that or even my boas!

Third: Personally, I'd rather wait till others have tested such a theory for a long period of time before I would attempt it with my own pets. I breed my own rats so I don't have to worry about the cost, just the pain of cleaning up after them!

Pixie

[Jayson]

Actually BP's love chicken,

[Lisa]

It comes down to volume and cost of doing business. How many chicken farmers are there? Rodent farmers? Volume and demand. if we produced as many rats as a chicken farm for the same price as chicken we could sell rats cheap.

[Dozer]

When my dad went to Poland this year to visit family, he checked out a herp store and he actaully caught them on feeding day. The stores display snakes were being fed chucnks of meat ( adult snakes whos diet was this all their life pretty much ) and were doing really well. I dont know much more about this because my old man really can careless about animals in general. We cannot say "chicken is bad because snakes need fur" because in the wild, a snakes diet consists of more then just rodents, and in some cases, not many rodents at all. Sure, the nutritional value of rats and mice maybe 'better' to our knowledge. We only tend to look at values of calium, protein, and a few other well known values and sometimes over look the trace elements that may be found in the meat which may be far more beneficial to a reptile. Now I dont know anythin' about nutrional values, nor do I know nothin' more then the fact that I only used to feed my snakes mice and rats. And yes, I have fed a fish to a few snakes before ( for all you people who think fish isn't a good feeder, kept my snakes fed and alive ). I'm jsut statin' some information that I DO know.

Mike

[rwg]

Fur is about the only fiber in a snakes diet. I dont know if it applies to snakes. but humans who get too little fiber in their diets have a much higher chance of getting cancer in their digestive systems. Snakes fed only hunks of meat may seem to be doing well but might actually have increased health risks such as this. It would take a well run study to find out for sure. I've also heard that the "gut load" has a significant nutritional impact. Snakes dont eat any veggies except in the bellies of rats.

One thing is sure though...many snakes have evolved to eat whole mammals as their primary diet. I wouldn't just switch them off of that without expecting that it carries some additonal risks.

Roy G

[Jeff Hathaway]

I think Lisa is right on the money- it isn't just steroids, etc. that makes chicken cheaper, it is economy of scale. According to something I read recently, chickens are estimated to be the most numerous higher life form on the planet! If rodent farms (located in climates where heating was less of an issue) raised rodents by the tens of millions, I bet the cost would go way down!

However, even for a small operation, chickens require fewer resources for more biomass. You can keep chickens in a small shed which costs a lot less to build than extensive rodent racks. You can let chickens mingle in greater numbers with fewer losses, and best of all, you can let them roam outside and find their own food! You don't have to clean cages that way either. Watering, even automatically, is easier.

With these things in mind, you can raise 10 chickens, or 100 chickens, or 1000 chickens, and you will get more biomass with less effort and cost than with mice and rats.

Now feeding whole chickens works fine for snakes that are big enough, though I wouldn't keep them on 100% chicken- I think some variety in their diet is a good thing. I would not recommend feeding chicken parts on a long term basis, and definitely not boneless portions (who would do this anyway, based on cost?).

Chicks/chickens are no more inherently dirty than mice and rats. Rodents can be quite dirty when kept at high densities; so can chicks.

Many snakes that eat rodents also eat birds in the wild. Some examples- rat snakes (includes corns), kingsnakes, gophers/bulls, boa constrictors, burms. I'm sure there are lots of others. I doubt you would hurt anything by feeding them chicks. I have done it in the past when I had access to free chicks and had no problems at all.

I'm really curious- all of these people who wouldn't want to feed chicken to their snakes due to steroids, anti-biotics, etc., what do you eat? Is your diet totally organic? Given that these products are at least relatively safe for human consumption, don't you think any risk to your snakes is pretty slim?

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Jezabel]

Fur is about the only fiber in a snakes diet.

I've read somwhere that fur is the worst thing to digest and I king of agree with. I often find poo that's mostly fur and some of my snake like white-lipped python don't even digest it, they trow up some fur ball after almost every meal. Don't know if feather is as hard to digest as fur? Anyone know?

The thing I would worry with chiken legs is the size of the bone in the compare to the bone of a rat the same size (same size of the chiken legs). Could it be to big to not be digested completly and stuck somewhere in the digestive track? I think whole chicken would be way better but my probleme would be availlability, if the snake devellope a specific taste for chicken, I'm not sure there's lots of farm around here that sell them, it'ld be a long drive to go get them.

[marisa]

"I'm really curious- all of these people who wouldn't want to feed chicken to their snakes due to steroids, anti-biotics, etc., what do you eat? Is your diet totally organic?"

HAHAHA no! But I also smoke cigarettes and drink coffee. I certaintly wouldn't give those to my snakes either. Unfortunatly many reptile keepers eat worse than their pets! :)

Marisa

[marisa]

Also...I am sure soon enough there will be a real reason not to feed birds to snakes:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/02/01/birdflu.vietnam/index.html

Marisa

[Jezabel]

BTW, great idea WYZ, I'm feeding my big ones so I try to calculate how much a pound my jumbo rat (700g or 1.5lbs) cost. Since I pay 2$each, 2$/1.5pound = 1.33$/pound? Preatty cheap. But the small rat would end up much more pricy. So it's cheaper to feed big snake! I'll have to get more big one ;)

[Cruciform]

It's 2 bucks for a pinky at the pet store down the street. Highway robbery I think.

[BoidKeeper]

I have the pets so therefore I commit to whatever costs are incurred by keeping them.
Amen to that! I say find out what your pet eats then how much it's going to cost. If you can afford it then go for it if not then I say leave the animal there. I think that is much better thenlooking for cheaper alternatives after the fact. If there was something better for our snakes then rats people would have been on to it years ago and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Dozer]

I dont think people here are lookin' for cheaper alternatives, they would just like to 'know'.

Mike

[wyz]

You stole the words from my mouth Dozer..

There is allways something stopping me to ask questions here..

Some people are so closed minded.. They do what they read without trying things on their own and buy only what's at the petstore cause they think it's safer.

It's not because you pay a plastic plant 10$ at the petstore that it's safer than the 2$ plastic plant at Wallmart.

There are so many other examples like that...

Anyways, no offend taken, but I just like to clarify that I started this thread to get answers and yes... if I would of read (with proof) that I can feed my snakes chicken parts, I would.. Why not ???

If feeding costs less, I can have more snakes..

I do calculate all costs before adding a reptile to my collection.. I didn't put up this thread because my collection is bringing me to bankrupty. I like to learn and seek other ways..

I knew at the begining that the first answers I'd get would be about salmonela, antibiotic, steroids.. etc..

It wasn't really the point of the question, yes it needed to be said because it CAN be dangerous.. But I find people look for these easy things to say instead of really trying to answer a difficult question and have some kind of evolution in the hobby.

BTW, Trevor, this reply is not directed to youl, I simply read all the answers and that's kind of the image that I see from this thread, please don't fell attacked by this reply just because it follows your participation to this question.

Thanks to all that answered, but 'd sure like to get the info on nutritional values.. Let's not stop her ;)

WYZ

[BoidKeeper]

Not taken as an attack at all. Learn all you want about the possibilities of feeding alternatives for your snakes but I for one feel that it's a mute point. Rats and mice are proven. If it ain't broke why fix it is my attitude. Call it closed minded if you want to but while people are experimenting with alternative food sources for their herps, it's the animals that "may" suffer not the owner.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Lisa]

Thanks to all that answered, but 'd sure like to get the info on nutritional values..

I beleive there was such a chart or a link to a chart posted in the feeders forum. I beleive mice were marginaly better then rats, didn't pay attention to the rest as i'm not interested in feeding chickens to my snakes (mainly from the messy poop). Hair in general is not digestable, whether it's fur from a rat or cat or hair like on your head or on the mane and tail of a horse.

I wouldn't eat the comercialy available foods if I could afford organic food. I do think the steriods in our food is part of the obesity problem that many people in north america deal with (laziness is another part).

[HetForHuman]

Originally posted by wyz


Thanks to all that answered, but 'd sure like to get the info on nutritional values.. Let's not stop her ;)

WYZ


Here you go, have at it.

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

[marisa]

I agree with Trevor. Why would I even waste my own time looking for chickens, fillets or anything else because like he already said "If it ain't broke don't fix it" Personally for ME I believe the old time herpers would have looked for cheaper alternatives long ago.

As for being closed minded....wel something either works or it doesn't. Maybe someone trying to save you time searching nutrional values and giving your snakes runny poop is a favor not a closed minded remark :)

Marisa