Heating for pythons! [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

Jeff Hathaway

01-27-04, 07:34 PM

I think Ken is correct in that many snakes, and other reptiles, will do fine at a relatively constant temperature. That doesn't necessarily mean that a gradient isn't desirable if you can create one. We heat our room to ~24 C and then use individual heat pads/tape/rope/basking lights as appropriate to create warmer areas.

Belly heat vs. ambient heat: If you heat the room to a certain temp., than that will be the heat of the snakes belly! Rocks, water dishes, and everything else will be about the same temperature. This also means that snakes can't go into the water dish to cool off- the water will be the same temp. as the room, and hence the snake. Water at the same temp. as the air only feels colder to us because we're endotherms!

Having said this, it is more expensive and wasteful of resources to heat an entire room to 32 C than it is to heat the room to the appropriate cooler temp. and use individual heat for certain spots.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

tHeGiNo

01-27-04, 07:39 PM

It would be interesting to see a study on this. Comparing snakes with gradients / basking spots to ones heating at a single temperature. As it stands, I do not see how this could be any good to the snake.

Invictus

01-27-04, 08:04 PM

All I was saying is, my snakes don't seem to care about having a cool spot. In many cases, when I do provide a basking spot, they stay away from it. But when the room stays at 84 degrees (It's a room on the top floor, west-facing, with a computer running 24/7, so the room gets pretty warm indeed!), the snakes contained therein seem to be just fine. Most of them stay put with not much cruising, so I know they aren't looking for a spot to cool off in. Now, I would never do this with say, the ball pythons - I do believe them to be much pickier with environment. But my boas, corns, spotties, macklotts, etc. are doing great with just the room temp being high. (It goes down to about 75-77 at night... forgot to add that.)

As for back heat Vs. belly heat - When their belly is full, the edge of their stomach is just as close to their back as it is to their belly. I do not, have never, and never will believe that belly heat is absolutely necessary either. My snakes all digest exactly as you would expect them to, even the ones with overhead heat.

tHeGiNo

01-27-04, 08:48 PM

I too believe belly heat isn't mandatory. But everything else, I really don't know. I just don't see why nature would do things for nothing.

Jeff Hathaway

01-27-04, 08:59 PM

Further on the belly heat issue- what is required is just plain heat! Whether from above, the side, below, doesn't really matter, in my opinion, for most species of snakes. But, it is much easier to provide heat from below, since the snake can sit on the warm area, and since warm air rises, than it is to try to heat from above with a light. Compare a warm spot created by a 100 W light bulb from above the cage with a 10 W heat pad, and then consider the electricity savings.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

Tim_Cranwill

01-27-04, 09:00 PM

Ken, not to say your opinion is wrong, but you seem kind of over confident in your assumptions.

The U of M's snake room is a uniform, constant temp and humidity and they have burms, bcc, garters, corns, kings, bulls and a few turtles all in the one room. One of the bulls they had reached the unbelievable age of almost 30 in those conditions! It’s kind of hard to dispute that evidence.

But, in the wild snakes do seek warmer and cooler temps. That much is a known fact. Maybe it's because of the extreme variables in temperature in some climates. Maybe it's because they "need to". Maybe it's just how certain snakes live in certain environments? Who knows?

I think it would be cool if you raised X# of snakes in one type of room and X# in another and see which group does better over the course of 10 years or so. That's one way to get your answers. Merely saying that your snakes have done fine in those conditions for so many months is just too inconclusive to be making such strong statements. If they are only offered one temp, why would they cruise to look for another temp that isn’t there? And the water would be the same temp as the room. It might "feel" cooler, but it's not.

I keep my collection with a heat gradient and almost all of them use the different temps available to them. Some sit on the heat a lot and others next to never. I see those differences among the same species. But I like to offer them the choice either way.

Good topic though... :D

marisa

01-27-04, 09:10 PM

I have kept my baby corns without gradient last summer, and they did fine. But I keep my adult corns and kings at 86-90 hotspot, with the cool side being 65-75 (depending on day or night) and likewise they have done well, but these snakes utilize the cool area for sure, normally a few days after a meal/sitting on the heat.

I think for colubrids generalized heating works fine gradient or no...they are forgiving. But I doubt I would be keeping anything else without a better level of control on temps....definitly not if I was looking for breeding sucess etc just because controlled hot spots and cool sides automatically knock out any problems that could arise from less controlled heating methods (i.e. whole room heating) But then again, I have never bred pythons or boas, so my experience in that arena is worth nill. Just an opinion. :D

Marisa

Jeff_Favelle

01-27-04, 09:15 PM

If reptiles in general, and snakes in particular, could live at a constant temperature, then there would be no such things as thermoregulation no terms called basking or "heat conservation coil" etc etc. There would be no behavioural mechanisms to achieve certain temps, higher or lower. Reptiles can ONLY change their temps by behavioural methods (being ectothermic), so it makes sense to provide a gradient. They use different temperatures to achieve different life events. To suggest that they only use one constant temperature is just ludicrous. You say that yours can be kept at 84F and they seem just fine. That's your observation (right or wrong) and can no way be applied to all living snakes. I can keep a TON of things ALIVE at 84F. Doesn't mean they are thriving or recruiting or completing life events. People kept monitors alive for decades at 84F, but they never bred. As soon as someone decided to give them 130F+ basking spots, they ate and bred like flies. Wonder why?

Keeping thing alive and observing them to NOT move when your cage is a certain temperature is NOT a measure of thriving. Its just a testimonial as to how hardy these damn things are, and how they can survive under such adverse conditions.

tHeGiNo

01-28-04, 07:21 AM

Thank you Jeff, you just saved me at least three posts!

MouseKilla

01-28-04, 08:18 AM

I don't remember who said it but I have to say it is not always cheaper to heat individual enclosures. If you're talking just a few cages then maybe but if you have a lot of enclosures it's best to get them all in one little room then heat the room to the ideal background temperature, get enough bulbs and UTHs going in a small room and you'll find it will heat up into the high 70s anyway.

I keep nearly all my snakes this way (some have spilled out into the rest of the house so they get individual heat) with the boids getting additional heat at a basking spot which I provide with either a UTH or an overhead bulb.

On what Ken said though, I know some folks that do things the exact same way. I would be curious though what kind of success people have had breeding boids in particular without a heat gradient. I haven't looked at this topic enough to even guess what the answer to that is, I'd be interested if anyone has had any luck doing this. It seems successful reproduction is the best indicator we have for proper husbandry, besides healthy growth and just plain not dying.

Invictus

01-28-04, 02:13 PM

MouseKilla

01-28-04, 02:39 PM

Any Ball breeders out there find any difference one way or the other? I'm interested in what they have to say because it seems balls are the most sensitive to temps, relative to boas that are a little more tolerant (to my knowledge at least).

Jeff_Favelle

01-28-04, 08:38 PM

Cool, how many babies does the U of M produce?

Also, while we are at it, how would a python (ANY python) incubate her eggs in an ambient of 84F? Don't say muscle contractions because only Burms have proven to raise the temps that much. So if I'm breeding an Indo python and I'm keeping it at 84F, how do I do maternal incubation? Or is one temperature not enough for an ectothermic animal that relies solely on its surroundings to get to whatever temperature it needs.

Of course you can breed some snakes at 84F constant. I used to do that when I bred corns and kings (EONS ago) and I understood JACK about how a reptile's body worked. I'd like to think that we've progressed a little further than what people were doing in 1985.

But yes, for SOME colubrids, it can work. As well as some amphibians. Boids? I think you know my stance on that.........

And who are these mysterious breeders? I'd like to hear from them. Not to razz them or flame them. If they are honestly doing something that people's animals can benefit from, why not discuss it? Or do they not care about animals and are they only in it for profit?

Tim_Cranwill

01-28-04, 08:43 PM

The U of M produces ZERO babies. :)

tHeGiNo

01-28-04, 08:45 PM

I wanted to avoid this thread because I cannot believe some of the answers, but wanted to mention I agree with Jeff, once more, 100%.

tHeGiNo

01-28-04, 08:50 PM

And again, I'd like to reiterate that I haven't just shown the success with my own collection. I talk to many high profile breeders who have been keeping snakes at a constant temperature for decades, and their snakes are in fact thriving. Of course a snake will use a heat gradient if it's available to them - however, I have seen nothing to convince me that they NEED this gradient to survive or even to be comfortable. It's like giving a boa constrictor a climbing branch - of course it will use it from time to time if it's there. But it certainly doesn't require it to live. Look at Tim Cranwill's example of the U of M - I don't think you need much more proof than that.

What success? I mean no insult or anything but I would like to know what you refer to as success, other then keeping a snake alive. I too would like to know the high profile breeders who keep there snakes at constants, I guess through the decades they have yet to learn a thing!

I think Jeff said it perfectly, and I would like to quote it:

Keeping thing alive and observing them to NOT move when your cage is a certain temperature is NOT a measure of thriving. Its just a testimonial as to how hardy these damn things are, and how they can survive under such adverse conditions.

Exactly.

Invictus

01-29-04, 01:41 PM

I sent the breeders in question an email asking if I could mention them here, and they have all asked specifically to be left out of online conversations. Not that I blame them, because as soon as somone comes along and does something different within this community, they are labelled as having bad husbandry. This can be potentially damaging to many reptile breeders' businesses.

Gino, your response is proof positive of this. Saying "I guess through the decades they have yet to learn a thing" is akin to saying "Well since they don't agree with me and Jeff, they are WRONG." I'm personally getting fed up with husbandry debates too, because you are no more capable of proving that you are merely keeping your snakes alive than I am. Want my definition of success? Fine, here goes:

- The snakes eat like pigs
- Not one regurgitation
- No aggression, which you would expect from a snake that is uncomfortable with its surroundings.
- They shed like clockwork
- They don't cruise their cage much (well, the corns do, but they always do that anyway!)
- When provided with a hot and a cool spot, they NEVER use the cool spot anyway.

And in the case of the other breeders I have learned the ropes from:

- They breed every season, huge clutches, no slugs, and healthy babies.

But, I realize the most popular opinion is that a gradient is required. Fine. Whatever. I guess I am a bad snake keeper, with all of my healthy, happy snakes that are showing no signs whatsoever of being malcontent with their environments, and are behaviorally exactly the same as other snakes of the same species who have a thermal gradient. So Gino, instead of just sucking up to Jeff, and placing the onus of proving that my snakes are thriving on me, why don't you try and prove to me that they are not? Why don't YOU describe what signs or behaviors you look for in order to determine that YOUR snakes are healthy and content? I bet anything you say will match the behaviors of my snakes to the letter.

Jeff_Favelle

01-29-04, 01:57 PM

They never use the cool spot? I guess you have never bred pythons, because in the months (weeks) leading up to follicle building and ovulation, all my pythons seek out the cool end and most tend to do the famous "one loop around the water dish". Not sure why yours don't. Maybe you have magic snakes that can just do all their life processes at 84F.

And don't get so mad and fed up. If you can't discuss husbandry issues without getting spazzy, then perhaps an online forum about discussing husbandry is not for you.

Also, don't get mad when its not enough for my, or Gino, etc etc to just have you say "I know successful breeders doing this...and I know successful breeders doing that....bla bla bla". I'm sorry, but with this day and age of easy internet access, and digital cameras, etc etc, there should be no way that they couldn't just prove their point. But no, again we're hidden in the dark as to who these mysterious breeders are who have these awesome methods.

Byt if their methods are so good for the snakes, you'd think that maybe they'd pipe up. I mean, are they so greedy or so in it for the profit that they wouldn't want to share their wonderful husbandry methods, even if it risks (god forbid!) a DISCUSSION about snake husbandry? I mean, I know its deathly awful talking about snakes and how to keep them, but .........

Tongue firmly in cheek.

P.S. Just because two people agree on a particular aspect of husbandry, does not mean either one is sucking up to the other at all. If that was the case, I guess one could say the same about you and your phantom breeders with overhead lights, no heat gradient, snakes that don't thermoregulate because they just sit there, etc etc

joshm

01-29-04, 02:14 PM

They might not have the proper heat and that is why they never leave it. Just an opinion I don't keep your snakes, so you would know best. As for the sucking up thing that was uncalled for, two people can't have the same views.
Josh

daver676

01-29-04, 02:16 PM

The only part of snake (well....boid) husbandry that is still terribly confusing to me is basking light vs. UTH. Which one is really better (if either)? When my bp is given the choice, she always heads for the hide under the light. I would love to hear more discussion on that issue.

marisa

01-29-04, 02:29 PM

One thing I don't understand is who are all these breeders you are speaking of?

Canada has a fairly small reptile community. While there are many breeders who do not come online, most do. And being as Jeff (as example) has been in this many years, wouldn't he also have talked to these breeders and gotten this information just to make his own business more successful? Or are they secret breeders? No offense, seriously, I just do not understand why in this thread and others you keep refering to this secret network of breeders who are afraid to share their success with the rest of us!

If its so great, why wouldn't they share? Why have they not documented this information in a way other reptile keepers can share it? Why are they only sharing this information with you and letting you spokesman the information to us? Sorry, again no offense, no acusing you, not attacking you, just trying to make sense of this.

I have seen with my own eyes, pythons using the cool side for ovulation. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH SUCKING UP TO JEFF! They seek out cooler temps for ovulating. My own python did this herself this winter....it wasn't me pretending so I can agree with Jeff...I witnesses this with my own eyes. Although she didn't curl up around the dish....she spent over a month on the extreme cool end, never ever resting on the hot side. Do you have adult pythons ovulating? Just curious.

You say here:
"because you are no more capable of proving that you are merely keeping your snakes alive than I am"

How is that? Jeff has breed captive pythons for like what? three or more generations? Daughters breeding, grand daiughters breeding...don't you think a person with that type of experience can say a little bit more than someone who hasn't even owned snakes for a year yet? Keeping snakes alive, or breeding generations and generations....which one is more successful? Its not that hard to see. Or someone who has never attempted breeding? Not cutting you down, I myself haven't breed pythons and I constantly admit my own hands on experience level is low. How can I possibly argue something with people who have? Doesn't make sense. If I MYSELF prove I can breed pythons with NO cool side, with no acess to different temps, then don't you think thats a better platform for me to argue with?

Are you saying pythons do not need cooler temps when trying to retreat to ovulate? I am just confused?

Marisa

mild

01-29-04, 03:56 PM

From what i have read on this thread if one of these breeders did come forward and share some info as to how they use a heated room with success the onlything they would get in responce is *thats bad husbandry*

Some people are just to stuck on what they belive and wont change there mind about anything even if proven. It's been proven that a ball python for instance can live its intire life on mice but that still doesnt stop people from feeding rats.

The reason for this thread was to know if snakes could live with a gradient temp and nothing eles. Not to know if they could breed. I know for a fact many coulbrids can and do live in normal room temps with no other heat source and thrive. Breeding is a whole nother subject.

Keeping pythons alive and eating well with nothing but a gradient temp has been proven for me as my friend has done this quite some time. The real questions is whats your definition of proven? Sure, anyone can come on here and say they use nothing but a heated room with no problems but that doesnt prove a thing. seeing it first hand is the only way to know for sure so if anyone wants to know this such as giNo then why dont you experiment on your own before you try and stand your ground on something you have not seen nor done first hand.

Invictus

01-29-04, 04:48 PM

All I'm going to say is this: No, I do not have adult pythons ovulating. I'm not denying that they seek cooler temps when they are ovulating.

Another thing... if you took a list of the top 5 breeders in Canada, and say, the top 20 breeders in the states, I guarantee you 80% of them do not post here, do not get involved in husbandry debates, and do not give a damn what Jeff Favelle, Gino, or anyone else thinks about husbandry. The reason why they don't post here is because they, like me, think it's pathetic how just because ONE method is proven to work, people think it's the ONLY method that will work.

I'm throwing my arms in the air for this debate. What I think is SO pathetic is that A) People think it's absolutely inconceivable that a n00b might know a thing or two, and that maybe, just MAYBE has a proven method of snake care that is yet to yield any negative effects whatsoever. And B) That you people seem to think that I would mention these "mystery breeders" just so that I could be right, and prove everyone else wrong. I have a certain finger reserved for anyone here who thinks that. If I say that I've been talking to very high profile breeders since I got into this hobby, and they have specifically asked me not to mention them with husbandry debates because they don't subscribe to the same practises as everyone else, it's because I've talked to high profile breeders who have specifically asked not to be mentioned. It's not because I'm trying to win a debate with no substance. It's because whenever I try anything new or different, I seek opinions of people who I respect, who have a proven track record, and who happen to have different methods than some of you might have. If they tell me it's a bad practice, I DON'T DO IT. If they tell me they have had success with the same method, I take their word for it.

What is UNCALLED FOR here Marisa, is your throwing my 1 year of experience in my face, the assumptions that you, Jeff, and Gino are making about the means by which I debate points, and the implication that I somehow make up a secret network of breeders just so that I can be right. If I was practising bad husbandry, I would change it in a second. But through the correspondence I've had with some top notch reptile keepers, I've chosen what I feel works best for me and my animals for the time being.

So if you want to insinuate that I'm practicing bad husbandry and making things up, take it to a PM so I can freely tell you where you can shove your assumptions. THIS is why the breeders I talk to don't participate in these debates - the last few posts are case in point. Even if they did post here, people would probably still say "Well, you've only bred TWO generations, so you don't know what you're talking about", or "Well, you've only been keeping them X number of years, so you don't know what you're talking about!"

I apologize for the harshness of this response, and I'm sure Jeff is going to have something condescending and sarcastic to say about it, but frankly, I don't give a rat's a$$ anymore. I'm fed up with bandwagon jumping, assumptions, and my lack of reptile KEEPING experience being used as a weapon when I try to say "Hey, your way is great, but there are other ways that are proven too." Of course I don't have the honor of being able to say that I've done this for 20 years. So I have to rely on information I've obtained from people who HAVE. Unfortunately, they have asked me not to ever mention them. That sucks for me. So I'm bowing out of this horsesh!t, just as they have. Believe what you want about me. After all, I'm just a newbie right? What the hell would I know?

Dark_Angel_25

01-29-04, 04:55 PM

You know guys, there was a time when everyone believe the world was flat...and that used to be the only assumption too. I personally feel that Invictus is right. I do use temp gradients but especially with my Boa, she tends to ALWAYS stay on the 84 degree hide. but then again, I too only have been keeping herps for a few months so...

snakey

01-29-04, 05:08 PM

DUDE...CHILL! Nobody is out to get you. We all come here to learn, and to help each other learn. I am 41 and have been playing with snakes all my life and I think I know a little sumtin aboutem. But I'm proven wrong every day. With that I'd just like to say whatever works for you is fine... BUT...If one person calls you a horse you might ignore it... if two people call you a horse, you might think there may be somthin to it...if three people call you a horse, you may want to start shopping for a saddle. Good luck.

Invictus

01-29-04, 05:26 PM

Sorry "dude", but I will not chill. People who come here to "learn" something have two choices - either jump on the bandwagon of popular opinions here, or get called down for being a moron. Learning means observing the different ways things are done, and trying them to find out what works best for you... not calling someone down for being a n00b, even though they also have a proven method.

Back in the days of Sigmund Freud, there was another psychologist named Willhelm Reich. He had a WAY different means of thinking. His ideas, at the time, were frowned upon and even shunned by the psychology community because Sigmund's ideas were what were considered RIGHT at the time. Decades later, people started to realize that Reich had a LOT of knowledge to contribute, and in some cases was even more right than Freud. Unfortunately, by this time, Reich had long since died. Now, there is an entire method of therapy based solely around Reich's texts called Gestalt therapy. It's a little out there, and it's a little different... but it DOES WORK.

Apply that to this conversation, and you'll see why I will NOT "chill" as long as I'm basically being accused of making things up just for the sake of being right.

Matt_K

01-29-04, 05:33 PM

Sorry, again no offense, no acusing you, not attacking you, just trying to make sense of this.

I think Marisa made it perfectly clear that she wasnt trying to attack or accuse you Ken..

As for the 'mystery breeders'. I have heard of a few people that use/used heated rooms. So i wont say you're lying about these people, but in all honesty, when you say they don't want their names being said or whatever, there is a bit of a foul odour, im sure you can understand that.

tHeGiNo

01-29-04, 05:50 PM

LMAO! Sucking up to Jeff? If anything, he is sucking up to me, because I stated my position on this before he did. And I HIGHLY doubt Jeff is sucking up to me, because who the hell am I? If that is your way of excusing things then so be it.

Now, I have lots to say. Seen as I already have this pasted, I will start here:

I am fed up with bandwagon jumping, assumptions, and my lack of reptile KEEPING experience being used as a weapon when I try to say, "Hey, your way is great, but there are other ways that are proven too."

Jumping bandwagons, assumptions - you are fed up with this? Well you must be quite fed up with yourself then! Not only do you assume I am sucking up to Jeff, because he happens to maintain a name in this industry, but you endlessly make assumptions on your animals. You, CONTINUOUSLY, assume that your animals are perfect because A.) They are not dead yet, B.) They maintain a decent temperament and C.) Other people do it. Frankly, I see no proof that these methods are proven. I can live, and reproduce, by eating lettuce all of my life. Does that mean its ok? Or healthy for me to do so?

Now I know what you are going to say, 'prove that my position, providing a gradient, is successful and the way to go'. That is simple; the proof is in the pudding: Mother Nature. Do not give me any of that jumping the bandwagon BS, because I do not see where anyone is jumping the bandwagon.

Now as far as these people who keep their snakes without a gradient? All I have to say is that they obviously have something to hide if they do not want to share their husbandry methods. They OBVIOUSLY think there is something wrong with what they are doing. This hobby is a community; we learn and gain information off each other. We learn from each others mistakes, and success. I am curious as to why, if their methods are so successful, they are hiding their names and their findings on captive husbandry?

It is also unfortunate that you 'don't give a damn' what other people think. It is pretty hard to learn with such arrogance. I mean we all make mistakes, and we are all wrong at times. It seems to me that you don't like being wrong, and whatever you think is right. Talk about making assumptions.

Now once more, back to the Jeff thing. There is a huge difference between sucking up, and respecting someone for their success and knowledge. Believe it or not, I have learned a lot from Jeff, but his thoughts have nothing to do with my opinion on this topic.

Also, when you have some free time, I would like for you to share your knowledge on snake psychology. You seem to be able to read their minds and thoughts quite a bit, the whole herp community would kill for this capability!

joshm

01-29-04, 06:02 PM

If you look at it this way how would you like to be put in a room at 90 and not have somewhere to go and get cool. bet you would hate your life well its the same thing with the reptiles, when its to hot they go under ground to get cool and when they are to cool they go and find heat. That is why we offer the cool side and hot side. They can't just get in the water to cool off as you have heated it up with the heated room. I would rethink your husbandry Ken as it isn't good for the animals.

Jeff Hathaway

01-29-04, 06:09 PM

I don't smell any foul odour at all. I know a few breeders that have been in this hobby much longer than me (10 years, for me) who are not on the net (or barely), don't post here, and wouldn't want their name brought up in a debate (as in 'well, Jeff Hathaway does it this way so it must be okay') because it is an easy way to offend some people if they think differently.

I know there are things that we do differently than many others, and they work for us and the animals we keep. And yes, we're always learning new things, and trying new methods.

I personally subscribe to the theory of heated room + gradients, as stated in my earlier post, and I do find corns, rats, and others using hides on the cool side as well as the warm side. However, I've also kept many things without an extra heat source, so they just have the room temp., and they have been fine. By fine, I mean they eat well, grow, and appear healthy. I'm not trying to breed most things, so that is irrelevant to me. In fact, for some I much prefer that they do not breed!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

marisa

01-29-04, 06:19 PM

OMG! Whatever you are WAY too much for me.

You have 1 year? Did I even mention that? What I MEANT was to show an example....one person doing something with say 15 years experience and another person telling you something else who has only one year, I could have said two years, or three to illustrate that point, which was if someone has proven something themselves then I am taking their advice over someone who is just passing off information. The fact you are taking it personally is just SILLY! It had nothing to do with you or your year. Why would I bring that up when I have only been keeping snakes for just coming up four years myself, and I havent bred pythons either? I am on your level RIGHT NOW! Me telling you that your experience isn't enough is me saying that abuot myself at the same time. Which would be stupid. But o.k. take things however you want.

Much the same way the rest of this debate has nothing to do with anyone PERSONALLY. My post was full of questions and CLEARLY stated if I MYSELF used a no gradient method for python breeding, I would also tell others it can work. You blow your top, tell me I have thrown a number in your face.

No offense AGAIN but you come into the thread, pass information off (it maybe 100% legit and true, or 100% wrong) without putting it in practice yourself and bringing up breeders no one else on the forum knows anything about who also refuse to come public with this information themselves, and then get upset with others who have put information in practice...when they disagree and question who you are getting this conflicting info from so they themselves might be able to ask them questions or see why its wrong or right. So you tihnk you are right, thats great! maybe you are! But why are you getting so insanely defensive and personal?

What bandwagon? There aren't a million ways to care for animals properly. Many people have come up with new theorys, thrown them into practice and have had them fail. Is it wrong to question your theory of keeping pythons without a gradient? How is doing what has been proven sucessful for years "getting on bandwagon"? It's doing what has been proven to be successful. Your theory and ideas may be right as well, but that doesnt mean because we dont agree we are brainwashed. That's as insulting as me saying you only do things the way you do because you have little experience. Which I clearly did not.

I am also done with this. If one cannot have a simple debate and state they prefer information that is tried, tested, and proven effective by someone willing to talk on the forums, share info, maybe some pics year afer year, then why even bother. All we did was ask you for some more concrete evidence.

Marisa
P.S. And FYI...instead of acting like me and other people are in some sort of badnwagon with Jeff Favelle, you should know I have no personal contact with Jeff Favelle, I have pm'd him two ball python questions in the last two years, and I have no personal reason for agreeing with his position in any way. So please stop gruoping me in just because his husbandry is similar to my own.

Invictus

01-29-04, 06:34 PM

Marisa, start reading my posts with your eyes uncrossed please. I HAVE employed the heated room method, and it works. The reason why I have employed this method for SOME of my herps (Not all) is because others have done it with great success. I have also employed the gradient method, and that also works. I never once suggested or insinuated that it doesn't work.

You want concerete evidence, Marisa? That's great. SO DO I. But no one here can prove me wrong with any kind of concrete evidence, so instead, they resort to "Well you've only been keeping for a year, so you know ****." Gino, your little retort was exactly as pathetic as I expected it to be. No, my snakes aren't dead yet. But you still haven't answered my challenge.

PROVE TO ME, since concrete evidence seems to be a big thing here, that YOUR snakes who are kept at a gradient are somehow healthier, happier, or better off than mine who are kept at a constant temperature. Go ahead. Prove it. Since you are the undisputed expert on snake husbandry in general, and since the fact my snakes A) are not dead yet B) have good temperaments, and let's pick up on the things that you conveniently left out of your retort, C) eat like pigs D) digest and poop like clockwork, E) Shed like clockwork, F) Show no signs whatsoever of malcontent (Gee, that's a lot more than 3 points to back up my stance, isn't it?)..... so go ahead. Enlighten me, almighty one. What other signs should I look for that prove that my method of keeping a few of my snakes is harmful to them? And by the way, you better have some concrete proof, or I will continue laughing my arse off at your pathetic hypocritical responses.

JoshM - Same goes for you. You think my husbandry is wrong? Fine. PROVE IT.

Jeff H - Thank you. I'm sure you also know people who have been instrumental in the reptile community who have better things to do than debate husbandry with people who think there is only ONE way to do things.

marisa

01-29-04, 06:38 PM

I wanted you to show me your personal evidence that it has worked for you. Jeff showed me his. His photos, pythons and boas and his sales of healthy happy snakes. You have shown living snakes. Which is wonderful. That's what I have shown. But over the two of you I am taking the person who has raised generations of babies with a method.

You showing me someone else eivdence doesn't work. What am I supposed to do? Just believe what someone else who I dont even know told you?

Not likely. Which is why if I MYSELF proved it, or saw with my own eyes someone else having at least a couple back to back years of success, then I would also say its another great way. But I haven't. I have only seen that from people who use gradients.

Relax. The forum is FOR debate. You seem to think you are above it all though. Jeff has always been willing to debate with you...you constantly call him an elitist and refuse to continue once you feel he won't agree with you or someone else agrees with him.

Marisa

marisa

01-29-04, 06:43 PM

And frankly your insults to me constantly are getting old. I NEVER insulted you or told you "uncross your eyes"

That is childish, and poor manners at the least IMHO.

Marisa

Tim_Cranwill

01-29-04, 06:50 PM

Holy smokes, Ken. <b>CHILL OUT!</b> You're going to give yourself a heart attack! :D

A few things I read in your posts kind of make me wonder.

- How does a snake's temperament have anything to do with it's quality of life? Ever kept an ATB?

- If your snakes who are given a heat gradient don't come off it, maybe it's not hot enough or maybe your cool side is too cool.

- You always ask for such concrete proof, yet offer none to validate your points.

- You've got to admit that it does sound fishy that these "Top breeders who never post" that you talk to always come into the big heated debates. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but you've got to be able to relate to how it might look from the outside and you can't blame anyone for doubting you.

- Your big thing in the "heat lamp brb" debate was that in nature, the sun is a big heat lamp. Why the sudden defiance of nature's way? In nature it gets hot, it gets cold. Snakes seek the sun, snakes seek the shade. See what I'm saying?

- Try not to be so harsh. It turns what could be an informative debate into an idiotic string of retorts and insults.

Now, everyone take a deep breath, put on a good cd and go feed your animals. :)

Invictus

01-29-04, 06:52 PM

See points A through F above which prove that my snakes are more than just alive. And if you think me saying that you are reading my posts with your eyes crossed was an insult, I apologize. It was not intended as such, but read into it what you will.

And I don't drop out of these debates for the reasons you listed. I bow out because I'm bored with proving my points over and over again, only to have people say "Well you haven't done it YOURSELF (even though I have) and you've only been keeping for a year (ho hum, ho hum... yes, it's true. I'm a n00b, I know nothing. So I reference the fact that I do know other people who have done it for 20 years, and THAT's not good enough either, ho hum, ho hum... even others say they know people who have done it, but THAT's not good enough either, blah blah blah F*CKING BLAH.)

BOTTOM LINE: I am fed up with debating with people who are not interested in the proof that I have, who are not interested in learning what others have done, and who seem to get a kick out of berating people who dare to do things differently, and DEMAND proof, even though they have NONE of their own to offer. I didn't ask you to prove to me that Jeff's method works, because, for about the HUNDREDTH G*D DAMN TIME, MARISA... I'm not questioning that his method works! But you seem to be big on proof, so why don't you, and Jeff, and Gino, in all of your divine knowledge, prove to me that MY method is HARMFUL. Why? You can't, that's why. So instead, you resport to the whole newbie thing. And you say I'm being being childish?

marisa

01-29-04, 06:54 PM

Actually I wont when the person I am debating with is personally insulting, uses foul mouthed language when he gets upset for no reason at all, and gets incredablly personal.

When someone starts insulting me and getting as personally angry as you are, I am done.

Marisa

marisa

01-29-04, 06:56 PM

I am tlaking about BREEDING PYTHONS you are clearly talking about simple keeping and whats harmful.

I never enve brought up the word hamrful in my post. Maybe I should say it like you did and acuse you of not being able to read properly (crossed eyes) and then tell you for hundreth "god damn" time.

Marisa

Invictus

01-29-04, 06:57 PM

You're sure following this thread closely for someone who is "done" with it.

If I essentially implied that you were a liar and were making things up, Marisa, wouldn't you be personally angry?

joshm

01-29-04, 07:06 PM

Ken, Tim just went and said the same things as I have I am not attacking you I just wonder how the animals would feel being kept at the same temps all the time with no where to retreat for the cooler temps. I can't say for sure that it is killing them, but again I ask how you would feel being put in a room at 90 or whatever and not having a cool side, I'll bet not very good. As for proof that animals use this in the wild I have been out playing and watching rattle snakes and I find the most in the morning warming up, but by the mid afternoon there aren't that many out they have gone under rocks and underground for the coolness of it and then in the evening when temps go down they come out and do their thing. This I have tonnes of proof of if that is what it takes. That is why our southern brothers have what is called night cruising. Again I'm not attacking you, but I question the heat thing.
Josh

tHeGiNo

01-29-04, 07:20 PM

I am fed up with debating with people who are not interested in the proof that I have

Wheres the proof? My proof is that reptiles have been thriving for millions of years. Need I provide more?

Gino, your little retort was exactly as pathetic as I expected it to be. No, my snakes aren't dead yet. But you still haven't answered my challenge.

LOL! My retort is pathetic? How about instead of stating facts, you quote secret hobbyists and accuse me of sucking up to Jeff. You have quite the retort yourself! What is your challenge? I will be glad to answer to it.

"Well you haven't done it YOURSELF (even though I have) and you've only been keeping for a year (ho hum, ho hum... yes, it's true. I'm a n00b, I know nothing. So I reference the fact that I do know other people who have done it for 20 years, and THAT's not good enough either, ho hum, ho hum... even others say they know people who have done it, but THAT's not good enough either, blah blah blah F*CKING BLAH.)

Who is saying that? Who has said you haven't done it yourself or that YOU specifically have only kept reptiles for a year and that reflects on your knowledge?

I also do not believe anyone is accusing you of lying. We would just like to see these people who you stand by so closely, along with their success.

See points A through F above which prove that my snakes are more than just alive.

Ok. Well then lets review points A through F then. For this whole thing, I am going to use a specific experience for an example. A while back, when I first got into bearded dragons, I kept them lacking UVB/UVA light, and supplemented with calcium instead. I still have this bearded dragon in particular. He is still alive. He is still moving. He isn't turning into a vicious beast on me, etc. Now, to your points.

A) are not dead yet

Whoopie? I am not even going to bother with that point, because as I am sure you can admit to that attests nothing, or hardely anything valuable. Put it at that.

B) have good temperaments, and let's pick up on the things that you conveniently left out of your retort

That too means nothing. I went to a pet store today to see a Mali Uromastyx as thin as two quarters and on its death bed. Needless to say, he had a good temperament. Didn't try to bite me, etc. Next, I saw a corn snake on its death bed. It was kept on sand, too, to say the least in regards to its bad husbandry. I asked to take this guy out for further examination. Needless to say, he did not attack me, and was quite docile. This too means absolutely nothing to me. Good health and temperament are not in any way correllated. There are a few cases in which it may be, but with the animals in question, for the most part, means nothing.

C) eat like pigs

For this, for conveiniences sake, I will make a reference to the bearded dragon I mentioned. He too was eating like a pig. Typical bearded dragon. Needless to say it took a while to see things go wrong.

D) digest and poop like clockwork

This too means nothing. I will make a reference to something that JUST happened, that I just found out about. A friend of mine has a pair of leopard geckos. I fed them, and saw first hand fecal matter in the enclosure. I just found out that the heat pad on the enclosure was never used. He didn't think he needed to. Sure, these aren't snakes, but I think it makes a valid point. Not to mention, you aren't heating your room to 50 F. There is heat to allow them to digest. Properly? Who knows.

E) Shed like clockwork

I do not see how this reflects suitable husbandry. Maybe you will clarify.

F) Show no signs whatsoever of malcontent (Gee, that's a lot more than 3 points to back up my stance, isn't it?).....

Great, thats wonderful. Again, do you have a degree in reptile psychology or something? Just because you can not visually see any ill effects, it does not mean they are perfectly healthy, nor does it mean they are slowly sickening.

Well, there goes your A-F. As I said, the fact that snakes have bred and are living means jack ****.

To make sure you do not forget anything here, I would like to know a few things. First, how in the hell was my post or posts retortful in any way? Next, how does shedding reflect health? Despite what you think of me, or what we debate here, I think your an overall good guy. Just wanted to make that clear. I just do not agree with you tagging along with things because they 'worked' for someone else, and as far as you can see are 'working' for you. I will once again repeat a few things. The fact that snakes are living and breed in no way reflects their well being. And again, I could live off eating lettuce, doesn't mean it is good for me nor am I in the best position health wise.

tHeGiNo

01-29-04, 07:28 PM

Also, to clear something up, I am not saying no one does this. I am questioning their reasoning for hiding their identities. I am also saying that because they have kept snakes alive and bred them only attests to their hardiness. As already mentioned.

mild

01-29-04, 08:46 PM

I have to agree with Invictus %100

Although i may be a noob with 11 post i have been keeping herps for more than 6 years. I attend every reptile expo i can and am also a member of the KYherp society which is here locally. This doesnt make me any better than anyone eles but it does say that i am learning everyday and from what i can see on this board is exactly what Ken said.

No one will ever listen to anything new such as mothods of housing, feeding, or even breeding for that matter. If a well known breeder or a high poster on these forums comes along and says they do something one way it seems every other way is wrong and your considered a noob for trying something new.

Jeff_Favelle

01-29-04, 08:53 PM

Another thing... if you took a list of the top 5 breeders in Canada, and say, the top 20 breeders in the states, I guarantee you 80% of them do not post here, do not get involved in husbandry debates, and do not give a damn what Jeff Favelle, Gino, or anyone else thinks about husbandry. The reason why they don't post here is because they, like me, think it's pathetic how just because ONE method is proven to work, people think it's the ONLY method that will work

No Ken, sorry, that is NOT the reason big breeders don't post here (or on Queensnake). Not sure where you get your info from, but phone the Big 5 and ask them why they avoid public forums. If even ONE of them tells you its because of the overwhelming support for a single husbandry method, I'll not only eat my hat, but I will eat your underwear for dessert. LOL! Where you come up with these theories as to why the big breeders don't post is beyond me man! Ha ha. :rolleyes:

Jeff_Favelle

01-29-04, 09:00 PM

What I think is SO pathetic is that A) People think it's absolutely inconceivable that a n00b might know a thing or two, and that maybe, just MAYBE has a proven method of snake care that is yet to yield any negative effects whatsoever.

Quite irrelevant in this case (MY opinion, don't spazzz) as the LENGTH of time you've been keeping them and the number that you keep, statistically, you could have easily avoided any problems. Easily. But add a decade to your keeping time, add 100 animals and 12 more species, and THEN you might see what we're talking about.

Also, I can live in jail for 30 years with water and bred etc etc etc, but what is my quality of life? Just because your snake can liv without a regurge and doesn't bite when you grab it, does not make your husbandry A-1. Ha ha, not sure why you think it does. We are keeping animals in tiny fragments of space. These animals come from areas where there are literally hundreds of microhabitats and they have a myriad of chioces for thermoregulation. And thermoregulation is but ONE tiny part of their life history! I think it would behoove us as keeper to at least somewhat try and mimic what CONDITIONS temperature and humidity-wise these animals have evolved for thousands of years to cope with. I can breed dogs in 8x4x4 wooded tanks and have them not regurge and breed and have babies just fine. But I wouldn't do it. I realize that just because it doesn't regurge or breeds normally, doesn't necessarily mean I'm doing the best for the animal. And isn't that what we really want?

I sure hope it is.

Invictus

01-29-04, 09:05 PM

Invictus

01-29-04, 09:13 PM

Linds

01-29-04, 09:24 PM

LOL this thread is getting pretty hectic :p Who'da thought tempers would flare so much over how to heat snakes? :p

One thing I wanted to comment on, is that using temperament to guage the animals health is not by any means ideal. Often sick snakes, or snakes that are below their temperature needs are very calm and "relaxed". Even when animals are being kept suffificiently enough to successfully breed, when exposed to optimum conditions (such as monitors in the sun), may even appear high strung and full of beans :p Aggression can be indicative of both superior and inferior health, as well as lack there of.

Originally posted by mild
Although i may be a noob with 11 post...

...If a well known breeder or a high poster on these forums comes along and says they do something one way it seems every other way is wrong and your considered a noob for trying something new.

Being newbie has nothing to do with how many number of posts you make, even someone who has never kept an animal in their life could end up having a whole lot of posts, it doesn't make them a credible source however ;)

There are a lot of tried and true methods, and there is nothing wrong with trying something new, after all, nobody knows everything there is to know about snakes. Some thing speople want to try however, are obviously not for the better, I am not saying this in application to any of this discussion. Also, without the necessary experience themselves, with great success in keeping this, one cannot say that this way or that is the best way. Basing something on the animal just being kept at certain conditions is also not proof that it is optimum, if that animals is successfully bred then it provides a better base for arguement.

Jeff_Favelle

01-29-04, 09:33 PM

PROVE to me that snakes are somehow harmed by keeping them at a constant temp.

Better yet, please tell me how you'd gestate a gravid Indo or Aussie Python or a gravid boa at a constant 84F? I'm curious. Because if you've ever kept a gravid one with a CHOICE of temperatures, and then TEMP-GUNNED it, you'd know that it WASN'T 84F. So if you're method if fool-proof, how exactly would one gestate these snakes without a gradient. I'm very curious. Because if you can save me money on electricity, I'm all for it.

Wonder if my monitors would like to just live at 84F? They're like snakes.

I have to agree with Invictus %100

You agree with Ken that established breeders are apprehensive to try new methods (NOT true) or you agree with Ken that keeping snakes at a constant temperature is a good husbandry practice. Wasn't really clear in your post.

tHeGiNo

01-29-04, 09:35 PM

Gino, you are still dodging the point. You say my snakes are not healthy, are not thriving, and that the proof I've offered means nothing. So there is no debate. You have yet to PROVE that my snakes are being kept in a way that is uncomfortable, and you have also yet to answer my question - what signs would be present if a snake WAS content with its surroundings? What signs would be there if it wasn't? Can YOU prove that YOUR snakes are in perfect health and are thriving? No? Didn't think so. So until you can PROVE that my snakes are being kept wrong, don't criticize me for doing things differently than you.

Dodging the point? Hardely. My proof is in the pudding. I do not claim to know what reptiles or feeling, nor am I capable of predicting health. Nor am I capable of determining the health of an animal from looking at it, or because it eats and shits. Can't forget because it doesn't leap out of the cage and attack you, or anything like that. Did I say my snakes are in perfect health? Have I ever claimed to be a snake expert as you seem to portray yourself, with the ultimate power to read their minds? No. All I know is how snakes live in the wild. And what they need to live. If your don't understand this, then I am sorry what can I say. What else do you want to know from me? And how they have evolved to live. This, you do not seem to understand. But then again, having the godlike power to read the minds of reptiles, I am sure you have the ability to change the way the live, for the good. All along I have stood by the fact that I, nor anyone else, can determine the well-being of a snake, or ANY reptile at that, simply because their behaviour seems 'normal.'

Jeff_Favelle

01-29-04, 09:36 PM

Another thing... thermoregulation becomes important when a snake is dealing with extremes - ie, 110 degrees under the direct sunlight. At this point, of course they will seek shade. A constant temp ranging from 75-77 at night to 80-84 during the day is HARDLY an extreme by which a snake would be uncomfortable enough to need to cool off.

No Ken. Snakes thermoregulate to acheive certain life events. Yes they have behavioural mechanisms to AVOID temperature extremes, but when the air is a balmy 84F, boas will STILL choose other temps at certain times to acheive certain tasks. THAT is thermoregulation. Cooler temps to produce and move follicles around, higher temps to gestate or to digest food. Cooler temps to conserve fat reserves or energy (its WHY reptiles are 10000x more efficient than mammals). Etc etc etc.......

tHeGiNo

01-29-04, 09:42 PM

Thank you, I was just about to clear that up. Couldn't have said it better myself. But damn, here I go again sucking up to Jeff because he is right about something. With all this sucking up I am sure he will eventually throw me some free albino ball pythons.

MouseKilla

01-29-04, 10:16 PM

I'm not about to pretend I have the answer to this debate but I must admit that I have noticed that certain things are fashionable or popular here, while other practices are sure to get you a long lecture from a series of over-enthusiastic posters that are simply bursting with righteous indignation.

Anyone who doesn't believe that this site isn't a strange reptilian microcosm that includes everything any group of highschool kids has (cliques, the "cool kids", losers, foreigners and freaks...etc.) should try bringing up live feedings, housing snakes together, keeping a BP in an aquarium, venomoids, sand substrate... and I guess we can add the topic of this thread to that list too. There is a tendancy for people to find something that seems to work and then swear it's the only way.

I don't get why we can't just share our experiences with eachother and take advice when we like it and leave it when we don't instead of shitting on someone when we don't agree with the way they do something.

Cruciform

01-29-04, 10:23 PM

How much sucking up do you need to do to get a nice set of Piebalds? :) :) :)

tHeGiNo

01-29-04, 10:33 PM

Mousakilla, I hardely find those causes for 'cliques.' In that case, there is the informed and uninformed. Aside from live feeding, housing snakes together, keeping a BP in an aquarium, venomoids, and the use of sand substrate with certain reptiles are deemed wrong for a reason. The informed understand this, the uninformed don't. For the obvious reasons, and I am sure it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand them, snakes should not be housed together. It is so obvious I wont even explain why. Venomoids, obvious too. Unless of course you support the brutality of innocent creatures just so someone can be a tough guy and freehandle a 'hot.' I guess, if you don't mind the butchering of animals, you can argue against that too. Now, keeping BP's in aquariums is by all means possible. However, it is much more difficult and requires much more work to do so. These are proven facts. So I don't think it would be fair to say NOT to use aquariums for them, just that there are PROVEN better and easier ways. Now sand, again, should not be used. Sure, you can take the risk, thats your choice. I am tempted to say again that the informed would not use sand, and the uninformed would. In this case, however, there could be some points argued. Personally, I say it is not worth the risk. Thats how I look at it. None of these have anything to do with cliques, groups of people, groups of beliefs, etc. They have to do with proven facts. It is proven that sand causes impactions, and is obviously not digestable. It is proven bearded dragons, despite what everyone thinks, do NOT live on sand. It is a known fact that venomoid surgeries are done mostly by non-professional veterinarian wanna be's. And for that case in particular, I see absolutely no reason to butcher the animal. I am sure there are other points to argue but I have 0 experience in the venomous fieled. It is a proven fact that rubbermaids hold humidity better then an aquarium with a screen lid. In a lot of the cases, it has to do with whats right and whats wrong. From my perspective, I cannot see why anyone would WANT to use sand for bearded dragons. I am using them for an example because thats where it is discussed most often. I just do not see why it is necessary to take the risks, when there are safer, better alternatives. I don't see why you would want to go through all the work to maintain proper humidity in an aquarium when you could easily fix the problem and hold steady humidity levels in a rubbermaid. This one may also be argued against in certain cases, however for the most part why house snakes together? Because we can't afford separate enclosures? I do not see why it is necessary to butcher an animal so some loser can act like a tough guy because he can freehandle.

With live feedings, however, I do believe there are cliques, and what not. Basically, what I find is that people see live feeding labelled as BAD and jump on the bandwagon and go posting in every thread ' DO NOT FEED LIVE. ' Through my experience and knowledge, I have determined that live feeding is sometimes necessary, however I see no reason to feed live if the snake in question takes f/t without any questions. I approach husbandry for whats best for the snake, and put my needs last, or in some cases my needs are not tended to whatsoever. If I can't afford to give the snake ANYTHING and EVERYTHING it needs, I don't get him. It is not a question of taking shortcuts. You either do it properly, and to the best of your ability, or not at all. I also approach husbandry by taking as few risks as I possibly can. I pose these questions:

Why keep a reptile on sand? Is it really necessary? This is absent of the exceptions which need sand to live properly (eg. Israli Sand Geckos, Sand Boas, etc.). Bearded dragons in no way require sand to live, and it does more worse then good IMO.

Why feed live? Is it really worth taking the risk of your snake getting bit? This is with the exception of problem feeders. But aside from them, I ask why?

Why butcher a snake? I see no reason, for the snakes well being, to make a venomoid. In captive husbandry, the needs of us, the keepers, should (in most cases) be ignored. It is the animal that matters, not what we want.

Not as importantly, yet still valid: why keep a snake in an aquarium? The ONLY reason I see is so that we can set up an enclosure that appeals to us. Why do that when you can maintain proper and steady humidity and control temperatures more readily, regularly and accurately in a rubbermaid?

Why house snakes together? They are solitary animals, you risk transfering disease, etc. There are hundreds of reasons not to. So why do it?

Ask yourselves these questions. I guarantee you the answers to EACH and EVERY one relies on what WE want. What WE want should not mean a damn thing, the reptiles needs and wellbeing comes before ANYTHING. That is the way husbandry should be approached. Think about that.

joshm

01-29-04, 10:50 PM

Ken if the gino is dodging your questions, again I would like to ask you how you would like being put in a room at 90 with hot water from the heat and no cool end to retreat to. Jeff and many others have thrown tonnes of proof your way, but your still going down fighting, sit back relax and think about it.

Cruciform

01-29-04, 10:51 PM

Not all snakes shouldn't be housed together. Garters for example, can be kept several to an enclosure. They'll even gravitate to the same hide when there's several to choose from. They're quite social.

I don't know about other breeds, so won't argue :) Just wanted to point out blanket statements like that aren't always right.

tHeGiNo

01-29-04, 11:31 PM

I wouldn't go as far as saying they are social. No snake should be housed together, in my opinion. In nature, however, they are often found in groups of 2+ hiding under rocks, boards, etc. But they still shouldn't be housed together. They risk transferring disease, you have more then one animal dirtying a particular enclosure, all the things that go with feeding, etc. Not housing snakes together extends further then them being solitary.

Jeff Hathaway

01-30-04, 12:20 AM

Gino,

I know there are many reasons (though not hundreds) not to house snakes together, but I've been doing it quite successfully (don't even ask me to define this) for 10 years. For a variety of reasons, it works for our situation. Does this make me uninformed?

Not to mention, while I am a big fan of rubbermaid, I keep lots of snakes in aquariums, including ball pythons! At small sizes, rubbermaids are great, but when you're talking about 3'-4' long units, I don't find them especially useful or readily available.

Unquestionably though, I'll agree that garters aren't social! They might all be in the same hide, but it is because that location is the temperature they all want to be at the time.

If what we want didn't mean a damn thing, then why would we have reptiles in captivity in the first place? Wouldn't we just put all our resources into conserving them in the wild and seeing them there?

Oh, and although I don't use sand except for sand boas, I assume you are informed about Calci-Sand, which is calcium carbonate and is completely digestible???

One more time, for the record, I still like temperature gradients. But, I think you should back off a bit on your assessments of things people should or shouldn't do, and who is informed or not!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

mild

01-30-04, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Better yet, please tell me how you'd gestate a gravid Indo or Aussie Python or a gravid boa at a constant 84F? I'm curious. Because if you've ever kept a gravid one with a CHOICE of temperatures, and then TEMP-GUNNED it, you'd know that it WASN'T 84F. So if you're method if fool-proof, how exactly would one gestate these snakes without a gradient. I'm very curious. Because if you can save me money on electricity, I'm all for it.

Wonder if my monitors would like to just live at 84F? They're like snakes.

You agree with Ken that established breeders are apprehensive to try new methods (NOT true) or you agree with Ken that keeping snakes at a constant temperature is a good husbandry practice. Wasn't really clear in your post.

I dont agree that keeping snakes in a constant temperature is a good husbandry practice. No one can tell you that except the snake itself. All im saying is that a snake can and will thrive in a heated room with no other source of heat. Many local breeders here in kentucky use heated rooms for there snakes with much success. Like i said before, this is not pertaining to breeding at all.

I find it funny that you bring up the point about mimicing the snakes natrual habitat. I guess throwing BRB;s for instance in 50gal rubbermaid is pretty close to the habitat in which they live in the wild. No waterfalls , trees, or anything close to what they live in the wild.

You say we should at least try to mimic the natrual habitat in which a snake lives but a small cage along with dead prey and everything eles that comes with caring for a snake is pretty much off from their natrual habitat. If we can put snakes in these conditions with them thriving then who is to say we cant change the temps and have them thrive as well?

Is there a limit to what we can do to these animals in captivity or is this not yet proven? I belive it hasnt been proven so go ahead and quote me on this again but untill you show me some solid evidence that this isnt true i will continue to stick with what i think.

You also talk about how someone can put you in jail and you wont be living happily but you will live. Do you think snakes like to live in the small cages we put them in or is this not true? Dont say captive breeds would'nt know any difrence because if that were true then they also wouldnt care about the temp changes as well.

NewLineReptile

01-30-04, 01:21 AM

I think that Ken and Jeff are both right in some ways.

But i am not really wanting to get in this. I would just like to ad that i have bred snakes in just a heated room before. And i have bred them with a Gradient. All snakes are different some are more hardy then others. And some just need to be kept different.
I'm not sure if this makes any sence Because i need SLEEP...lol

Brandon

tHeGiNo

01-30-04, 08:26 AM

Jeff, I know that is the case with many coloubrids. That is why I clearly said:

This one may also be argued against in certain cases, however for the most part why house snakes together? Because we can't afford separate enclosures

I am aware coloubrid keepers and the like may house certain species together, as there may be certain benefits. However, there is absolutely no reason to house two boa constrictors, nor two ball pythons together, for example.

I keep lots of snakes in aquariums, including ball pythons! At small sizes, rubbermaids are great, but when you're talking about 3'-4' long units, I don't find them especially useful or readily available.

Read the posts a little more carefull man! We were clearly making a reference to the use of aquariums for ball pythons. And I also clearly said aquariums can be used, however it is much more work.

Oh, and although I don't use sand except for sand boas, I assume you are informed about Calci-Sand, which is calcium carbonate and is completely digestible???

You actually think that works? Mimic the acid (hydrochloric acid) in your snakes stomache, put some of that stuff in, and tell me your results. Mine didn't fair so well.

My reference to the informed and misinformed was clearly separated where it should have been.

MouseKilla

01-30-04, 08:41 AM

Gino,

You missed my point entirely, I have no interest in trying to debate each one of those examples I gave simultaneously, especially in a thread that has been off the rails for at least 3 pages. I'll let someone else dust off those old debates, I've heard what most people will have to say on those subjects anyway.

The point I was trying to make before you got distracted by my examples was that there is a population of members here that have married themselves to current popular husbandry methods and are awful quick to jump on anyone that even wants to discuss anything different.

I wish that the people who think the art of snake husbandry has been perfected would have a look at what the "experts" were saying just 10 years ago or for a bigger laugh 20 years ago. Do you think there were people around then that clung to some of the stuff we know now to be nonsense? I'll bet there were.

Point is that the popular methods have evolved greatly in the last 20 -30 years and will continue to evolve in the future so it would be smart to consider that any of the stuff people preach now could very well be out of fashion 10 years from now, even if those preaching have made a couple of snakes hump a few times.

Breeding snakes can make you money, it can make you popular on this website, it can make people believe what you have to say but it can't make your beliefs infallible.

Jeff Hathaway

01-30-04, 09:47 AM

What is the big difference between housing some corns together, and housing some ball pythons or boa constrictors together? The concerns/risks are the same, and the benefits are the same (unless you believe that garters are social creatures, which I don't).

I have two adult boa constrictors in the same enclosure, and three adult ball pythons in another. While I am not especially interested in breeding either species, both have produced babies for us (balls- clutches of 10 and 14 eggs, 100% fertility). I'm not saying that this is the ultimate way to keep them. But we have reasons for doing so that extend beyond not being able to afford additional cages.

Personally, I hate to see words like absolutely, never and always, especially with respect to animal husbandry.

I'm just saying, give people a little bit of credit, and space to do things a bit differently, without jumping on them for having bad husbandry.

Interesting note about the calci-sand- I've always just taken their word for it. I do have some hydrochloric acid here. I will check it and report back!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

Dark_Angel_25

01-30-04, 09:51 AM

Quote:
Oh, and although I don't use sand except for sand boas, I assume you are informed about Calci-Sand, which is calcium carbonate and is completely digestible???

Just so you know, Calci Sand has the same ingrdients as TUMS and ROLAIDS, which NUTRALISES stomach acid.. so no it isn't digestable. If you want proof, well the AFT I bought Saturday (who was kept on the calci sand) ate Sat / Sun / Monday and no poop. Finally on Tuesday he DID poop, and it was FULL of this so called digestible sand. so was the poop he had on Thursday.. a little less but only because the store only had him for 4 days before I bought him, so he probably didn't ingest as much as he could have say if they had him on it for months. I went to the shop yesterday and told the guy who is in charge of the reptiles this, and he was all like, oh, I didn't know that... and then changed the substrate.. so no personally because of what I have seen, Calci Sand is NOT digestable and SHOULD NOT be used...
IMO.

As for Balls in aquariums, Well 8ball has been in a 3 foot tank since we had him, with a screen lid. I have duct tape over part of it to keep in the humidity. I don't EVER have to spray except when he is shedding and even then, I didn't spray him and the shed was perfect. I haven't had to do anything more to his cage or him to render it "more complicated" so for me personally, from my experience, that isn't an accurate statement either. maybe initially it may take more time to adjust, BUT your tank should be ready before your snake arrives anyway so you take the time you need to make it work. I don't have to pay any more attention to my ball's encloisure as I do to say My leo's, who by the way I never worry about... but this is just my personal experience again...

Invictus

01-30-04, 11:08 AM

So Gino, what you're telling me is, there is absolutely no way to prove that a snake is healthy due to its behavior? (And by this I mean more than temperament, so don't even try to ram that down my throat again.) Wow, talk about being uninformed. And by the way, you can keep your pompous, sarcastic "mind reading" comments to yourself. You're already coming across as an elitist know-it-all snob, so please don't exasperate the situation with your frankly petty comments.

Jeff - I would like to re-emphasize for about the fifth time that I DO NOT HAVE ADULT PYTHONS OR BREEDING PAIRS OF ANY KIND IN MY HEATED ROOM. I am well aware of their additional requirements during breeding time, and would fully provide that for them. I really don't know why I have to keep repeating myself in these posts just to get a point across.

Joshm - Your example is even dumber. 1) I am not a snake, I am a warm blooded mammal. 2) I don't have a 90 degree room. So asking me how I would feel in a 90 degree room is like asking me if I like oranges - it has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING.

And you're still yet to prove to me that you've succesfully used a heat gradient. I mean, since you're not a mind reader and I apparently am, how do YOU know that your snakes are being kept well? What are the indicators? Or are you afraid to look like a complete a$$ when I show you that my snakes exhibit the exact same indicators of being in good health? So either answer this question, or get off my back Gino. This is 6 FRICKEN PAGES that you have been dodging the question now. And don't give me any crap about "the proof is in the pudding", because when I say that, it's apparently not good enough for you. Other people who have posted that they have used heated rooms with success, and others who know other who have successfully used heated rooms is not good enough for you. What this proves is, you have no interest whatsoever in "the proof is in the pudding". All you are interested in is who agrees with you and who doesn't. Now answer the damn question, because I'm getting really bored with your know-it-all posts that contain no factual information, and are full of nothing but self-contradictory remarks.

joshm

01-30-04, 12:18 PM

Kne how do you know that your animals are in good health, on the outside they may apear to be but what is happening on the inside. You may think that your animals are in good shape. Why would you give them means that are not natural, you tell me 1 reptile that lives in consant heat. My example is to show you that it would suck living at the same temps with nowhere to retreat from the heat. I told you go find some rattlers this summer and they will show you they don't lay around in the baking sun all day. So if they do this in the wild why wouldn't you give them the choices in your home. Once again you dodge and dodge, but still can't prove a damn thing.

marisa

01-30-04, 12:33 PM

Things have calmed down it seems!

There is something very stupid going on here. Favelle and I are talking about keeping snakes and being successful in all their behaviours with gradients...i.e. Favelle and I have been constesting that anyone can breed pythons and boas without gradient.

You are talking about general care. Yet still insisting we tell you how you are harming your animals. But we can't, because you aren't. I mentioned like half a dozen times I agreed with that. MY Point is you will won't have BREEDING success with those animals at a constant 84...or 86 or whatever. I have said that over and over yet you just keep SCREAMING back "HOW AM I HARMING THEM" like some sort of machine I put a 25 cent piece in.

So clearly none of us can have this debate anymore. Ken is talking about husbandry and general health success. Favelle, and I were talking about overall breeding success. Obviously two different things. Ken could keep his snakes in a non gradient forever, but for those of us trying to breed it won't work. I don't think EITHER side can argue that.

Marisa

Invictus

01-30-04, 12:54 PM

"you dodge and dodge, but still can't prove a damn thing"

And neither can you, Josh, so back off. I have not dodged a single thing. You have presented challenges to me, and I have answered them directly. You can't prove that my snakes are not comfortable. I can't prove that they are according to you, Gino, and Jeff. Here's the fact: Ectotherms thermoregulate in the wild in order to maintain a CONSTANT temperature. Each reptile has what is called a PBT - Preferred Body Temperature. By providing a constant temperature for them, I am eliminating their need to use their environment to achieve their PBT (which by the way, is usually between 80 and 84 degrees for about 90% of all snakes.) They regulate in the wild because of extremes - 110 degree sunlight, or a 65 degree rainy day. None of those extremes exist in my heated room, so no regulation is required for them.

Marisa - You're right - I am talking about general care. And as I mentioned, I do not have any breeding pairs of anything in this room. They are all babies. I'd like to also add that recognize that pythons seem to be the only species that I know of that literally requires a thermal gradient during breeding time - I know many people who breed colubrids in constant-temp rooms, as well as boa constrictors. But it's irrelevant to me and to this debate anyway - all of my adult and sub-adult boas and pythons do have a gradient available to them, because they are all in custom enclosures which have a hot and a cool side.

Ryan and Katie

01-30-04, 01:43 PM

I always miss all of the big debates. I have considered both methods of heating for my animals many times and always came back to the same conclusion, that it would be in my best interest to try and simulate the conditions they would have in the wild. Now in the wild you are going to have all sorts of different temp gradients (Shade,burrows,direct sun,leaf litter,etc). I do apologize if I say a few thing that may have already been said but I could only skim this whole thread. Anyways, snakes will seek out the temp they require for the task at hand. The most apparent example being BASKING. This behavour is used for getting ready go hunting for food, (Heat=Energy) digestion, and this is just a couple of reasons. In the wild they have alot of different temps to chose from so why would I just give them one.. I know ambiant heating will work but I feel it limits the animals natural instincts and may affect future breeding attempts. I don't know what my animals are thinking so I leave it up to them to decide what they would like...

Jeff F- Don't Diamonds also Shiver around clutches to regulate temps like burms do?? I got to see a burm coiled around a clutch and it was such a cool site!

Jeff_Favelle

01-30-04, 01:53 PM

Jeff - I would like to re-emphasize for about the fifth time that I DO NOT HAVE ADULT PYTHONS OR BREEDING PAIRS OF ANY KIND IN MY HEATED ROOM. I am well aware of their additional requirements during breeding time, and would fully provide that for them. I really don't know why I have to keep repeating myself in these posts just to get a point across.

Ok, so now it changes. During breeding time, NOW you give them the choice of extra heat. This is new. We are progressing. But every so slowly.....

I'd like to also add that recognize that pythons seem to be the only species that I know of that literally requires a thermal gradient during breeding time - I know many people who breed colubrids in constant-temp rooms, as well as boa constrictors.

Ken boas ARE pythons man (basically). The "can" gestate at 84F but its not advisable. Temp gun a gravid boa in ANY collection of ANY breeder worth his/her salt in N. America, and it won't be 84F. Before follicular development maybe. But when its gravid. I think Marshell temp-gunned some of his at 90F last year. I've had the Rainbows at 92F (2000, and 2001)!! And they are supposedly cold-loving!

And this is the root of the problem. You are making assumptions and guess based on what others have told you, without first doing it yourself. I find that dangerous and I hope no newcomers to the hobby are going to follow your husbandry methods.

Jeff F- Dont Diamonds also Shiver around clutches to regulate temps like burms do?? I got to see a burm coiled around a clutch and it was such a cool site!

ALL pythons coil, some shiver. But I don't think any raise the temps as high as a Burm could. Maybe Retics and Rocks, but I doubt it. They are from such hot areas anyways. And even a Burm is going to have a hard time raising the heat from 84F to 89-91F.

Grant vg

01-30-04, 02:06 PM

I'll agree with with Ken and say i too have spoken with a few american breeders who have created many of the new morphs out there .... and many of them use ambient heat for everything that is not being bred.
By this i mean, hatchlings to sub-adults, only when they are planned to breed do they go into gradient heated cages...
Can this be done with all snakes? probably not, some are more sensitive then others.
but some? sure. theres tons of proof.
Ken never stated he breeds them using just ambient temps...and quite frankly, i dont agree that "breeding" a snake holds any more weight then just "keeping" a snake healthy and long lived as a measure of success.
but i do agree that its essential for most species to have a gradient if they are to bred.

Ryan and Katie

01-30-04, 02:12 PM

Jeff F- I am not sure what the background temps were but Diamonds have raised the temp 9C-13C while shivering. I would guess these snakes need this ability due to cooler background temps.
And yes I know all pythons coil...lol

Ron

01-30-04, 02:15 PM

I'm going to have to side with the heat gradient method mainly because I don't know what the ideal temp is so I'll just let the snake decide. Maybe we need to get the Pet Psychic to ask them what they want...lol.

Jeff Hathaway

01-30-04, 02:32 PM

Hey Jeff,

I don't think Ken's changed his story- didn't he say at the start that he didn't have breeding pythons without additional heat sources? I can't remember for sure at this point, and I'm not planning on going back to check:-)

Now back to the Calci-Sand issue- Dark Angel, I'm well aware that Tums are made from calcium carbonate (here's the ingredients list: Active Ingredients: per tablet: Calcium Carbonate USP (500mg) Inactive Ingredients: Sucrose, Calcium Carbonate, Corn Starch, Talc, Mineral Oil, Natural Flavors, Sodium Polyphosphate). And yes, acid working on calcium carbonate gets neutralized. Eventually, the entire Tums (or calci-sand) is dissolved. This, by the way, is a digestive process! Your stomach produces more acid- it isn't all gone!

I just tried mixing a small quantity of calci-sand with some hydrochloric water, and a little water. It all seemed to dissolve nicely. Boy, that is even better than the vinegar and baking soda of my childhood! I can only surmise, Gino, that you didn't have enough acid to dissolve it all, or if you didn't have any additional water present, then stuff you were seeing is some calcium chloride salt residue (Chemistry 101- Acid + Base gives you Water plus Salt). In the gut, this calcium chloride salt would be dissolved in water.

Now I didn't mean to imply that some calcium carbonate can't be passed- if the throughput time of the gut is quick enough and the quantity of calcium carbonate large enough, then some will be moved beyond the stomach. Sure, impaction is still possible, but the risk is vastly reduced compared to quartz sand, 100% of which will pass through the stomach. Passing a little sand is hardly an indication of a problem.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

Dark_Angel_25

01-30-04, 02:37 PM

Jeff H: ok some of it dissolved, but tell that to my 1 year AFT whose poop was FULL of it. Anyway, the bottom line (for me anyway) is I have seen it in the poop (and not a little, plus the fact it took him 4 days to actually 'go') and like you said Jeff, some may pas right past the stomach, therefore maybe a chance of impaction.. but for me no risk is a better choice, and I will choose to put the saftey and welfare of my animals before the aesthetic aspect of it... but maybe that is just me.

joshm

01-30-04, 03:08 PM

That is the problem Ken you are taking somthing away, that they should have the choice of. They know better than we do and if they want to cool down then they have that option. After all this is what they do in the wild. And I second what Jeff F said that I hope no newbies come into the hobby and fallow your foot steps. I see all my animals use bothends and it comforts me that they have a choice and its not my way or the highway as you have choicen for your animals. I could go on forever but I don't think you will change.

Dark_Angel_25

01-30-04, 03:21 PM

joshm: he hasn't chosen 'my way or the highway' did you read his post? Snakes go to cooler sides and warmer hides to MAINTAIN a CORE temperature. namely between 80-84 degrees. because his ENTIRE room is that temperature, they don't have to try to maintain anything, the core temp that they look for is already what they have. when they go to the hot side, they may get up to 90 degrees, so they go to the cool side but maybe they stay too long and get to 80 degrees, so back to the warm hide. etc etc. Ken is giving them the temp they are trying to achieve.

did you even read what he said?

Invictus

01-30-04, 03:31 PM

... or what others have posted for that matter? Are you now calling Grant a liar too? He has spoken with US breeders that keep their young through sub-adults at a common core temperature, with success. So it seems that my method is not all that unpopular, even among large scale breeders after all.

marisa

01-30-04, 03:36 PM

Dark Angel- Regardless of whats right or wrong, not all snakes are trying to achieve a certain tempurature all the time, and if they were, that temp certaintly isn't the same for each species. They want certain temps for doing certain things....that's something both sides are agreeing on.

Marisa

joshm

01-30-04, 03:37 PM

Tell me what happens to the animals on the lower parts of the room as heat rises and then the top the heat sits, the heat in a room will not disapear and so how do you control it for all. You can't tell me that the room always stays at 84, not without proper fans and such. So tell me how do they benifit from this.

joshm

01-30-04, 03:41 PM

Your right on the money Marisa, I guess thats why they invented heat tape and the such. To give whats best for the animals which is a temp grad. I guess that idea is crap eh.

Invictus

01-30-04, 03:55 PM

Josh - The floor of the room differs from the top of the room by 1 degree. That's it. And yes, this is the readout from my digital thermometers which I have placed all over the room to ensure I was getting the temps where I wanted them. I'm surprised that you honestly think I wouldn't have checked this.

marisa

01-30-04, 03:58 PM

John- Frankly you are turning this from what recovered into a good debate into stupidness. Have you ignored my past posts? I USE HEATING GRADIENTS! So why would you say to me:

"invented heat tape and the such. To give whats best for the animals which is a temp grad. I guess that idea is crap eh."

Yeah that was pointless. Try and get me to believe in something I already pratice. HAHAHA

Marisa

Invictus

01-30-04, 04:00 PM

Your right on the money Marisa, I guess thats why they invented heat tape and the such. To give whats best for the animals which is a temp grad. I guess that idea is crap eh.

And, once again Josh, I never once said, implied, or even hinted at a gradient being a bad idea, so please just grow up, and while you're at it, learn the difference between your and you're. I learned it in grade 2.

See, that was kind of a cheap shot, wasn't it? Now you see how you are looking with silly comments like the one quoted above.

This is the difference with our standpoints - I'm not telling you that you are wrong, because you're not. And if I did feel that you were wrong, I would take the responsibility of proving it to you... something that neither you, nor anyone else here, has done thus far. However, more and more people are coming forth and saying that they also either have, or know many huge scale breeders who have, done the same. When is it going to be enough proof for you?

tHeGiNo

01-30-04, 05:29 PM

Ok Inviticus, you are taking this thread way to personally. And your attitude is pathetic enough to start name calling, which is fine.

So Gino, what you're telling me is, there is absolutely no way to prove that a snake is healthy due to its behavior? (And by this I mean more than temperament, so don't even try to ram that down my throat again.) Wow, talk about being uninformed. And by the way, you can keep your pompous, sarcastic "mind reading" comments to yourself.

Nope. Behaviour can be a sign of good health, but should never be used as a method of doing so. But if this is how you control your husbandry then so be it. From what I see, if your snakes don't jump up and tell you they are sick, bleed from their nostrils, etc etc, they are ok. Thats fine. But behaviour isn't a shouldn't be used as a method of determining health. It could be a guidline, not a method. But again, you will do what you want to, and I am uninformed.

You're already coming across as an elitist know-it-all snob, so please don't exasperate the situation with your frankly petty comments.

Thats fine. Thats your opinion, which means nothing to me. I would sink to your level of name calling, but we wont go there.

Jeff - I would like to re-emphasize for about the fifth time that I DO NOT HAVE ADULT PYTHONS OR BREEDING PAIRS OF ANY KIND IN MY HEATED ROOM. I am well aware of their additional requirements during breeding time, and would fully provide that for them. I really don't know why I have to keep repeating myself in these posts just to get a point across.

Sorry if he has mentioned any of this, but I haven't read his responses yet. So I look at that statement, and I now have figured out your attitude. You know what measures they live under in nature, and what they are accustomed too, but this is only important when breeding. Fair enough. At any other point it just doesn't matter whether or not they are under proper conditions. On a little side note, I think what Jeff was trying to get at was if they NEED those requirements for breeding, why wouldn't they need them at any other time?

And you're still yet to prove to me that you've succesfully used a heat gradient. I mean, since you're not a mind reader and I apparently am, how do YOU know that your snakes are being kept well?

What I know is the conditions they are native to. And I also know they have lived and evolved under these conditions for ages. And I match these conditions. I do not know what you would like me to say?

Or are you afraid to look like a complete a$$ when I show you that my snakes exhibit the exact same indicators of being in good health?

The only one looking like a complete *** here is you. I find this an awesome subject to debate, but you seem the feel the need to throw derogative comments and name call. But apparantly you aren't afraid to portray yourself in that manner. I do believe there signs indicating good health, but even with the presence of these indicators there is a chance of illness. But if to you, behaviour is the only dictator of health, then thats fine.

So either answer this question, or get off my back Gino. This is 6 FRICKEN PAGES that you have been dodging the question now. And don't give me any crap about "the proof is in the pudding", because when I say that, it's apparently not good enough for you. Other people who have posted that they have used heated rooms with success, and others who know other who have successfully used heated rooms is not good enough for you. What this proves is, you have no interest whatsoever in "the proof is in the pudding". All you are interested in is who agrees with you and who doesn't. Now answer the damn question, because I'm getting really bored with your know-it-all posts that contain no factual information, and are full of nothing but self-contradictory remarks.

What do you not get in what I am explaining to you. I thought my analogy stated my point clearly. I will say it once more for you. I can live off lettuce for a long time, but that doesn't mean I am in good health. If you don't understand, I will explain a little more. Just because a snake breeds and eats, it doesn't necessarily mean they are under proper conditions. Thats all I am saying.

All you are interested in is who agrees with you and who doesn't. Now answer the damn question, because I'm getting really bored with your know-it-all posts that contain no factual information, and are full of nothing but self-contradictory remarks

LOL! Ok man. I would like to know where all your factual information is. Me providing nature as my proof is twelve times better then you telling me that people breed snakes under these conditions. Please show where I am self-contradictory.

Again, and one more time for you, here is all I am trying to say: JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BRED SNAKES UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS OK. Afterall, I can raise an adult bearded dragon in a five gallon aquarium. I might even be able to get him to breed. Does that make it ok?

tHeGiNo

01-30-04, 05:33 PM

All in all, we have differences in opinions on captive husbandry. Fair enough dude. You need to stop the name calling though, there is no need to steep to that. In this industry, we all learn from eachother, and we all have our opinions until solid facts are upheaved from someplace or another. It is an awesome debate, I don't see why you must be so offensive.

Dozer

01-30-04, 05:55 PM

settle down now people... there are many ways of doin' certain things and in my opinion, you're all right until the point your pet dies from old age. hows that sound ;)

and dave, good post dude ;)

Mike

Syco

01-30-04, 06:06 PM

I've really been trying to stay out of this but...... Gino you said
Again, and one more time for you, here is all I am trying to say: JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BRED SNAKES UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS OK. Afterall, I can raise an adult bearded dragon in a five gallon aquarium. I might even be able to get him to breed. Does that make it ok?

I think what Ken is trying to get across is that he could use that same argument about temp gradients. Just because most people keep snakes that way and get them to breed, does that mean it's the right way or the *only* way?
Ken isn't saying that it is wrong to keep snakes using a temp gradient, he is saying that no one is giving concrete proof that keeping them at one temp is harmful.

tHeGiNo

01-30-04, 06:10 PM

No it is not the only way, but it is the way snakes live under, and have evolved under for ages.

mykee

01-30-04, 06:20 PM

Ok, I've read this ENTIRE thread and have enjoyed it thoroughly. I will not throw in my two cents regarding the topic. What I will say however, is that it is unfortunate that a few people, who for the most part fancy themselves as quite articulate and intelligent can sink to such a childish level as to use vulgarity and personal attacks to get a point across. For you I am embarrassed and somewhat disappointed, as you clearly are not. Most people who responded to this thread were doing so to pass on personal experience. Heresay, vulgarity and personal attacks don't belong here. MOST of us are above that. If you're going to be ignorant, rude, condescending or vulgar, maybe you should re-access the amount of respect and credibility you think you deserve.

Jeff_Favelle

01-30-04, 08:58 PM

Well said Mykee (as usual)! :o

I'm not telling you that you are wrong either Ken, I'm just asking that with your method (and "lots" of other "big" breeders) how you're going to go about accomplishing specific life events without a gradient. and I have yet to hear you answer that. So I assume that it can't be done with your method. And if it can't be done with your method, I would them deem that method to be inferior (by default). Wouldnt' you agree? All I want to know is how you're going to gestate gravid or soon-to-be gravid pythons and boas with no heat gradient. That is a completely natural life event that happens with pretty much 95% of my adult stock. Without a heat gradient, I'd be surprised to see more than slugs, preemies, and stills.

But you seem to know your method pretty well and having your "ear to the ground" on the non-gradient scene, I figure it would be a cinch for you to tell me how to do it. You see I am VERY interested to know. If you can save me electricity, thus decreasing my overhead, then that's going to help me. I don't care if you don't have gravid pythons or boas. All I care about is how you're going to accomplish or how the "big breeders" you say can accomplish, gestating snakes and breeding them with no gradient. I find it very intriguing is all.

That's all I want to know.

Well, that AND why isn't every single snake that has access to 84F in the wild at that tempreature 24/7. I mean if its the ideal temp., and they have access to it 24 hours a day, why do they NOT always choose to be at that temp? That doesn't make sense. And while we're at it, why the arbitrary value of 84F? Why not 86F? Why not 83F? What's SO magical about 84F?

Its funny because you always call people arrogant or elitists when they don't agree with your crazymethods, yet you seem to think you can tell an animal that has evolved for thousands of years to exploit different temperature ranges to just be at one pre-determined magical temperature. THAT is way more arrogant than someone explaing their proven methods of husbandry.

However, more and more people are coming forth and saying that they also either have, or know many huge scale breeders who have, done the same. When is it going to be enough proof for you?

Ummm..yeah, they're coming out of the woodwork so fast my head is spinning! Huh? Grant VG is the only one who said anything remotely close to that since you posted, so I don't see all these breeders coming forth. It would be nice if they did. Because then maybe we could get some detailed insight into how it works, the pros/cons, the ins and outs, etc etc. You know, the TANGIBLE stuff. Not just rhetoric and jibber-jabber.

Is any of this even worth arguing anymore? I mean, on the one hand, I don't want newbees thinking they can just stick a 100W bulb in a 5-foot high cage and stick a baby boa in it, and think everything is hunky-dory just because the cage is 84F. But on the other hand, not much more is being learned by anyone here, and its pretty much the same stuff being bantered around, without the questions actually being answered. I don't know. I just wish it was more of an open discussion without the slander and profanity. That might have just scared a few people off who would have otherwise posted and contributed.

Cheers,

The Gradient One.........

Ron

01-30-04, 09:15 PM

Hey Jeff,

I think Ken was trying to say that he keeps all of his non breeding stock (babies and sub-adults) in a heated room with no gradient. His cycling and gestating adults would go in another room and have cages that have a heat gradient to allow thermoregulation.

I guess if it works, good on him but I too am weary of the magical 84F. Like I said before let the snake decide or call the Pet Psychic :D

Ron

Jeff_Favelle

01-30-04, 09:21 PM

Totally Ron. The thing is, breeding and gestating is but ONE life event that requires different temperatures than 84F. I know, I've temp gunned all the ranges and all the events. I have Ball Pythons that will go to 94-96F after a big meal. How would 84F help them then? Same with my Rainbows. They're boas. I feed them HUGE meals sometimes, and they will consistantly cruise over to the 92F spot. Yet, before follicular development, I've found them to seek out 77-81F. How the heck can I accomplish any of this in a room that's 84F? I can't. And to me, just keeping a few boas alive that could basically live in any condition thrown at them isn't enough. I want recruitment, and I want fast, healthy growth with no snags. And the only way I can accomplish that is.....

Scales Zoo

01-30-04, 11:13 PM

I just read this thread, I see it has really racked up the posts.

Jeff, again, you are talking about cycling for breeding.

Yes, I would suggest people trying to breed boas and pythons fluctuate the temperatures and use some gradient and night time drops for most of the processes you’ve mentioned (we’ve never tried it any other way). That isn’t really the topic of discussion though, is it.

Having said that, I do know a few people (In Canada) that successfully breed boas and pythons with no gradients, and I suspect they aren’t the people Ken is thinking about either. I’ve certainly grown some boas and pythons very well with no gradient, just by keeping them nice and warm and humid.

I have also bred numerous colubrids without providing a gradient, and know many others who have done the same, repeatedly.

My gut feeling says that a gradient is likely better for the reptile for food digestion etc, but I have also seen enough colubrid rooms with no gradient for the individual enclosures – produce large numbers of babies, year after year. Those people must be too busy breeding and feeding babies to come to Internet forums, because none of the ones I am thinking of are on here.

But, Jeff, from what I have seen, you like to defend your beliefs greatly – which is good, you believe in them. But, you have to admit, that people have been breeding reptiles for 25 years, and so many do it differently than you or I do.

Look how much information has been found out about monitor breeding, light cycles and stuff like that. There are many methods that will produce babies – there is not only one way to do things, and an even better way could always be around the corner that we haven’t thought about yet.

I also know a few people who no longer give gravid boas and pythons much of a gradient, or any under belly heat. That, in itself, is a neat idea to think about. Would you want your incubator to spike to 95 F for prolonged periods of time? What about a gravid snake (boa or ball) being able to sit on a heat pad that makes the surface temperature of their bellies go over 95 F.

Ryan

Jeff_Favelle

01-31-04, 05:43 AM

Jeff, again, you are talking about cycling for breeding.

Actually, I JUST said this in the above post:

I have Ball Pythons that will go to 94-96F after a big meal. How would 84F help them then? Same with my Rainbows. They're boas. I feed them HUGE meals sometimes, and they will consistantly cruise over to the 92F spot.

I'm not sure how you breed your animals, but feeding them huge rats isn't part of cycling process. I wasn't referring to cycling at all. My point was, and I thought it was clear, was that breeding and cycling is but ONE life event that requires different temperatures other than 84F. So then I went and provided 3 more. I'm not sure how that can get confused? :confused: :confused:

Jeff_Favelle

01-31-04, 06:14 AM

But, Jeff, from what I have seen, you like to defend your beliefs greatly – which is good, you believe in them. But, you have to admit, that people have been breeding reptiles for 25 years, and so many do it differently than you or I do.

I would much rather defend my beliefs greatly than to have no beliefs or experiences at all. But I didn't really defend anything vehimently here. I didn't swear, yell, insult, etc etc, so I wouldn't say I defended more greatly than other involved. If anything, I held back.

Yes, people do it differently, and as well they should (different climates, different ambient room temps, different cities, etc etc), but the mechanisms and thoughts behind the processes are the same. The animals don't change. They have specific requirements and that's it. There are many ways to acheive this, but it must be acheived if success is desired. And if certain temperatures are required to complete life events are different than 84F, then its not hard to see that........... well, you get the idea.

I gotta bail on this thread though, sorry guys. Nothing new is coming up or being discussed, only some people saying "well some breeders do it" and others saying "who are these secret breeders and/or just because you breed them doesn't mean that its resulting in healthy animals" etc etc. Its just not helping anyone at this point. You can tell me that you know a hundred...no a MILLION breeders that just use ambient 84F and that's fine. Each successive time you tell me does not add to the affect. You know, zero times zero is STILL zero. And I can say that a million breeders DO give gradients, and that's likely to not have an effect on you guys either. Doesn't matter. You keeping your animals at 84F has no affect on MY breeding success or failure. I am in control of that (thank god). I just worry about animals kept in a suspect way due to misguided advice given or laziness. But I can't bend over backwards trying to explain why that is. All I know is that I at least tried to give your animals a better lifestyle, that is all.

All I know (for sake of arguement) is that snakes ACTIVELY CHOOSE different temperatures in the wild and in captivity ALL the time. Therefore, it would behoove us to allow them to do just that. If you don't, in my opinion, you are not giving that animal the best care possible. And I'd hate to think of people doing that.

tHeGiNo

01-31-04, 07:41 AM

All I know (for sake of arguement) is that snakes ACTIVELY CHOOSE different temperatures in the wild and in captivity ALL the time. Therefore, it would behoove us to allow them to do just that. If you don't, in my opinion, you are not giving that animal the best care possible. And I'd hate to think of people doing that.

I am out of it now too. But I just wanted to mention, before I leave, that THAT is exactly what I have been trying to say the whole time. Also, that breeding something or not have it die does not, in the least bit, attest to its health, well-being or anything else of the sort. My last analogy summed it all up I think, the bearded dragon one.

tHeGiNo

01-31-04, 08:42 AM

Just wanted to add a quick HAPPY BIRTHDAY INVITICUS ;).

Invictus

01-31-04, 11:29 AM

Sorry, some things I need to clear up before I also put this thread on the ignore list.

Gino - LOL, thanks.. sure, butter me up with niceities so I don't flip out again, hehehehe

On that note, I do apologize to you (publicly) for flying off the handle. I'm a very defensive person, and when I feel I'm being accused of being a liar or a bad keeper, well... my eyes turn red, horns sprout out, and I start sounding like Linda Blair in the Exorcist. :D

That said:

1) I don't keep ball pythons OR rainbow boas in the heated room, Jeff. I know better. However, my boa constrictors digest and poop on exactly the same schedule as when I had them on a gradient, and they NEVER used the cool side, which was around 78 degrees, so don't tell me it was too cool. :)

2) I never said I keep them at exactly 84F. Someone else put that word in my mouth. I said the daytime temp ranges from 80 to 84. Meaning 84 is the highest temperature I've ever recorded in here. Most of the time it stays around 82.

3) I'm still needing to re-emphasize, apparently, that I do not have adults of any kind in the heated room. It is mostly baby corns, and boa constrictos, which all do QUITE well at a constant warm temperature. Once they reach a year or two old (depending on species), they come out of the rubbermaids and into custom enclosures.

So, we agree to disagree. Now I'd like to move on to much more interesting things.