Chamaeleon cages

[Richard Welter]

Here is a picture of my Chamaeleon cages and how it works. The deal feel through so I will keep and Breed them this winter.

[Richard Welter]

Here is another picture

[Richard Welter]

One more for the hell of it.:D

[Jaylyn]

Very nice!!! Did you build them yourself?

Jaylyn

[Richard Welter]

I got the cages from the best veild breeder in Alberta. I put them together myself. They are made of pvc coated plastic. I should have over 250 veilds coming in the next year as a result of this breeding project.

[Laurier]

250 veiled babies. man i thought you only had like 3 females and a male. but i guess you have 5 females if you will be producing that many. Ya, also you better find buyers before they hatch because man, i know people who only had 40 offspring and got stuck with them untill they were a year old.

those look alot like the enclosures rob mcrobbie house his chameleons in at the shows (god i wanted those quads).

Laurier

[Richard Welter]

I have already found buyers. My reptile partner and I are doing this on a large scale. I have four females and my partner has one female and four males. So we are going to offer unrelated bloodlines and sell them for about $25-$75 depending on colors and how many are bought. I have a cuple up whole sale buyers in Canada and three in the states, now I can do my own cities work so there should no be a problem. Yes those are Rob Mcrobbie's cages, they were on the kS forum for sale. Thanks Richard Welter

[Jaylyn]

This isn't meant to be stab or anything ... just wanted to start a discussion. There has been alot of talk on the cham forums of late on the way the reptile industry is going in an ethical manner (as you probably already know).

Many places are leaning towards liscencing not only for the more dangerous species - but also for the ones requiring specialized care (like chams). While, I don't like to be told what I can and cannot keep (with the exception of public and environmental safety) - I'm starting to think this may not be a bad idea. Take a look on the KS forum - it's horrifying to read how some chams are kept (I'm sure Leah can vouch for me!). There is SO much misinformation out there regarding chams. Ed Pollack (an AdCham member) compares bearded dragon and cham care to wart removal and neurosurgery. I don't think they are hard to care for, personally, but they do have specialized requirements. I think that liscencing for breeders and stores would be a good idea (liscencing the buyer would be impossible, let alone impractical). I would rather see reptiles sold in specialty stores or by the breeders than the larger chain stores and proper information and resources given to buyers.

As keepers we have to look at the big picture. Pet stores selling chams with misinformation, the conditions while being housed when wholesaled (unless the wholesaler specializes in chams), the transport of wild caughts ... and on and on.

One thing that worries me is the price of chams. I don't mean to sound like an elitist and only the rich should own them - but the price of an animal sometimes correlates to the care they'll be given. If someone is only willing to pay $60 - are they always going to fork out extra money for proper caging, lighting, vet bills?? Veileds, especially concern me - they are easy to breed and are prolific. I know of too many veileds bought for kids and kept in an 10 gallon aquarium and misted one a day.

Sorry for a bit of a rant ...

Jaylyn

[Laurier]

Personally, i wouldn't mind the lisence idea because this will eliminate the problem with people being un able to keep the reptiles in proper condition. But the problem with it is that it will be like trying to get a permit for an illegal reptile , such as burmese python (alberta). Plus the the hobby will be mainly based in the 18 + age area because is hard for the younger herpers to get permits/lisences. There is a good and a bad side to it. Personally i would love to see reptiles disappear from places like petco or petland. as everyone has seen conditions and probably have been in a conversation on care in a pet store you might agree with me. every time i go in i see something wrong. Like monitors being housed in small enclosure, frogs in dry envirnoments, and chameleons in housing where conditions are hard to keep. I know that petland in calgary say "oh we sold it" when ever an animal dies, ya thats a joke, when you see some spider geckos being over heated and there hind legs in the air who would buy them.

Pet stores also tell people just the requirments for babies. like oh a veiled can be housed in a 10 gal. a cousin of mine came over this weekend and saw my veiled. he is a younger guy and his mother didn't even know what they got into. they thought it would stay small and live in the 10 gal its whole life, and than they found out what they were in for. to me, pet store should not sell reptiles but a reptile based store i would love to see.

as for kingsnake, geez what can i say, once i found ssnakess.com i just stopped talking there. there are few people in the forums who accually know what they are doing and than there are lil ****$ that like to be bossy and think they are the *gods* of the forums. ahh only time i talk there now is to correct people in the arrow frog forum due to mis information.

well to me our hobby is getting to be filled with people only into it for the money, no names mentioned. I know alot of people who are just dirty and who really don't care about the animals and just sell them right after they get them. This one guy got a monitor in and it had a tumor, so he was so cheap that he did his own operation to remove it and than sowed it back up. personally i think this is sick and a proffessional should be doing it. well the hobby is going into a downfall while at the same time growing with the interest.


sorry about my rant, ahh i have a tendency to to it as well when i have ideas going through my head.

LAurier

[Jaylyn]

I don't think permits for owners would work, either - but I would like to see the sellers' have permits. I know this kind of sounds like blastphomy on a reptile forum (sorry) - I do want to see this hobby grow and flourish - just not at the expense of the reptiles.

It enrages me to see some of the blatant ignorance some people have regarding cham care - but we have to bite our tongues and try to help ... The chain stores are to blame in most cases - I will not buy another reptile from one. I have spent an afternoon in the back of P****** in Calgary with an employee - even he said NEVER buy a reptile from there. Not an attack on age - but alot of the kids in there make it up as they go along...

I personally don't have a problem with the Alberta reptile laws - I can see you cringing - but most of them make sense. Not everyone is a responsible keeper - while that makes it tough on the rest of us, it is necessary from both public and environmental safety standpoints. I don't condone "blanket" laws open to interpretation - they are ignorant and stupid. But, restriction of specific species - I approve of. For example, I would LOVE to have an aquatic turtle - I can't. But, my desire is not more important than the Alberta water turtles' survival. When male red eared sliders ( so I understand) are released into the native turtles habitat - they kill off the males and mate with the females. I know LOTS of people keep aquatic turtles (and other restricted species) and they pose no threats while in that persons care - but defying laws, instead of trying to change them, does not do anything for how the general public views the hobby. Education is the most powerful tool we have.

There. How's that for a rant???

[Canadaherp]

im a decent herper, and i take care of all my herps really well, and im pretty young (ok im really young) but i havem y own income coming in to support them and i breed for the hobby and not for the industry, so i think the permits should be more like hunting or fishing liscences, where you have to be 12 or 14 to get them, because a majority of herpers are in the 14-24 range ... anyways if you need a wholesale for 10-15 chams at a time, i work at a store where i actually basically give a lesson on taking care of any herps we sell (even anoles!!!) and if you dont have/want to get all the supplies you need, you dont get the animal (no wonder we dont have much for herps!!!) but if your looking to sell off 10-15 babies when you do breed, i can get room anytime, and e-mail me odin1@shaw.ca thx!

[lanalizard]

i need to make myself one of those cages....woohoo

[CDN-Cresties]

Cool enclosure, doesnt the top wiring get too hot though???

[Wuntu Menny]

I support your position 100%.

Richard, you need to seriously reconsider the ethics and logistics of your plan. I hate to use the phrase "been there, done that", but I have. I'll bet you're even planning on how to spend all that money, aren't you?

Be prepared for your "buyers" to bail on you the instant they find a better deal. Add to that the probability that they will make every effort to renegotiate the terms of whatever agreement existed before you showed up with animals ready to sell.

Have you considered how poorly those chams are going to be treated by both the initial buyers and the ultimate keepers? Veileds have become one of the most common casualties of ignorance and indifference in the herp trade. Don't you have any sense of obligation or resposibilty toward the hundreds of creatures you plan to unload?

Laurier, you're not helping the situation by encouraging this. I know you're herping habits are aligned with Richie's and it disturbs me. Considering the unique position you are in with regard to your access to global flora and fauna, I was hoping your contributions to the hobby would be more positive.

I read this thread last night and held my tongue, but it was eating at me the whole time. I logged back on today, and I am compelled to speak my mind. You guys are doing this in MY backyard. Threatening to perpetuate the sad state of our local herp community that I've been fighting to reform. I have no choice but to offer a reality check.

No one, and I mean no one (Richard...Laurier, are you listening?) is going to get rich breeding herps. You may, at some point, be able to supplement your income or pay your power bill, but you will not be able to sit on your butt and live the life of Larry while the blood of 1000 chameleons keeps your rent paid!

I hope I've made myself abundantly clear. I can't force you to discontinue this fantasy, but I can sure try. If forums are ineffective, perhaps we could all meet for coffee and discuss the matter, or possibly the bike racks at 3:00.

So in the mean time, and in between time
That's it for another edition... -Ed Whalen-

WM

Jul 16/03--- It has come to my attention that posts of this nature may offend some readers. To those affected, I apologize. I will not, however, retract my statements as I feel them necessary under the circumstances. I believe the parties involved are far more likely to reexamine their motives when confronted in a forum setting as opposed to private messaging. If it was posted publicly, why shouldn't it be addressed publicly?

If you haven't already realized it, I am very passionate about this hobby and the direction its heading. I don't want the public's perception of the herping community eroded any further than it already is. We all cast our ballots when another body of bureaucracy tries to have us voted out, but no measures are taken to avoid the next crisis. By making statements such as the one above, I am trying to deal with the situation at more of a grassroots level. Stop it before it starts.

Once again, I apologize to any of you that take exception to this approach. In the future, I will try to tone down my responses for your benefit.

Lowell M. Shaw aka Wuntu Menny

[Richard W]

Well sorry Wuntu Menny if there is a problem with how I do things. I would first like to point out that you follow up post is over six months old, and some threads don't always have to be brought up because you feel bad. If you think your the first to try and stop petstores and other herp owners from doing large scale breeding projects, you have another thing coming. Your just wasting your time thinking you are going to stop the world from selling animals this way. As for the veilds go, it is my problem if I have to sit on them and not yours. I did not get into the project because I wanted to make money. I got into it to do a large veild breeding project because I like working with veilds at the time. I have 7 emerald tree boas right now, I will have over 25 emeralds by the end of this year. Does that mean you are going to post another thread based on the fact that I am going to do a large scale breeding project with them. Instead of working with over 20 different types of herps (like when I first started) I have went and got into a couple different types and that is it. I called your house and there was now answer so I hope this post clears it up. Thanks Richard Welter

[leolover]

nice cages

[meow_mix450]

Hi

[meow_mix450]

opps srry messed up:P
Richard W well if that post offended you in any way then u should read it again the guy said srry if it offended in anyone and he wanted to let people kno what he thinks but you do have a point you cant stop breeders from selling them to pet stores and stop people that buy them and cant take care of them but im just saying that its hard to stop people to selling them.....