Herp Friendly Insurance?

[Cruciform]

Hey all,

I've noticed posts here and there about insurances companies screwing Herp owners, so I was wondering if there's any herp-friendly companies that don't take issue with breeding in the home, etc.

Since a Dalmation is a greater threat to visitors than any non-venomous reptiles, I find it odd (but not surprising) that they'd discriminate in this way.

It's getting near the time when I can finally afford that house downpayment, and with it the reptile room I've wanted since I was a kid. I'm leery of talking to my current insurance company in case they cut me off out of hand.

Anyone have any dealings with companies that have no problems with Herps or various exotics?

[DragnDrop]

Supposedly there are some insurance companies that are herp friendly, but not many. I ran into a problem with my house insurance over 2 corn snakes. They consider any snake over 3 feet to be a potentially hazardous animal. So now I'll stick to 'short snakes' like kings and milks. :D

What gets me is that they weren't worried about me owning a Rhac leachianus who could easily bite off a chunk of flesh. :confused:

[Nicky]

are u serious they charge u extra on reptile rooms.

[marisa]

HAHA charge you extra? It's far worse than that! Some people have lost not only their home insurance but their car insurance as well as soon as the insurance company heard they keep reptiles.

Stupid insurance. I also love how when someone hits you, your bill goes up. Makes tons of sense. lol

Marisa

[Lisa]

RBC insurance was hesitant about insuring us when i told them about our snakes (i only mentioned the corns) until i said they were like garter snakes and you were in more danger from a cat then the snake. I unfortunetly have a habbit of being too honest.

[Tortoise man]

Thats Weird my wife is an insurance Broker and she's never heard of that? Where is this happening in the States or in Canada?- Why give us some more info on what they may have said .

[Lisa]

tortoise man: i'm in ontario

also they are over insuring our building - our house is insured for over double what it's assessed at (and the assessment includes almost an acre of land) and our out building (which is practicly falling down is insured for about 62k (it might be worth 2k) and it's basicly the size of a two car garrage and consists of a couple beams and a a few sheets of tin, has a dirt floor and no electricity. we took it because we needed to get insurance for our morgage. If your wife can give a better rate then $75 a month on a 100+ year old 2400 sqft house with 5 year old electrical 6km from the fire station let me know.

[Cruciform]

I emailed Stevenson and Hunt Insurance Brokers today to see if anything like that has come up or if there are companies that are/aren't herp friendly.

I want to have a kick *** herp room, so I don't want to have to wade through any surprising insurance crap after the fact.

[Jeff Hathaway]

While in Toronto, we were with Wawanesa, through a broker. We were quite upfront about our reptiles, and they had no problem with it. Their one question- whether we had kids. I suspect if we had had kids + reptiles they may have had a concern, but we don't, and there were no problems.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Bartman]

Do you have to tell them you have reptlies??
I know my parents havnt told me anything about there insurance going up beacuse i recently starting getting reptlies...

[mykee]

I'm also looking for a house west of Toronto, and have no intentions on letting any insurance company that we have reptiles at all. Unfortunately, ignorance doesn't stop when dealing with insurance companies. It seems to be a catch 22 in the sense that if you let them know, they may not insure you at all, but with no insurance, any losses are your own problem. What they don't know, can't hurt you.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Actually, it can. If your insurer doesn't insure reptiles, and you have a fire that is caused by a reptile heat lamp, they likely will not cover your claim.

If they don't ask, you may be safe not telling them, but be sure to read the fine print of your policy. If they ask about pets, and you lie to them, you'll be in trouble if you have to make a claim.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Cruciform]

FlexWatt makes me nervous for that exact reason. If I burned down half the house from a bad wiring job I could see the insurance company shrugging and tearing up my policy.

[Lisa]

Also if you're a business you need to declare that to the insurance company.

[mykee]

One of the many risks of both reptile and home ownership...

[Pixie]

In Quebec it is a problem as well... Most companies will not insure you if you have just one reptile! Those who do, charge you more for it... Robbers!

I was told by a couple of people that if I have many herps I most likely have to turn to a animal shop type insurance. I haven't done that much research on the subject but plan on doing so in the near future and will relay my findings here.

I do know that if you "lie" about your reptiles to the insurance company, not only can they not cover you in a related incident but they can refuse to cover you for anything else. They figure if you've lied about that, then other things as well and it'll most likely cost you a lawyer to clear up the mess...

Pixie

P.S. Apparently "Belair" or "Bélair Direct" that insures in Quebec and Ontario DO insure reptile owners.

[Derrick]

just wondering if you do everything upfront and are straight about your herps will they pay to replace them if something happens?

[Dark_Angel_25]

Derrick: If they did agree to insure you, then yes but I would think only if you were using them for breeding purposes... as I can't see them replacing a pet. Although nowadays they have PET insurance too, so couldn't people just get that for the herps? would be good anyway, it would cover the vet bills too...

[Cruciform]

Heh, there appears to be an untapped market for a small, enterprising insurance company to step up and take advantage of :)

[Dark_Angel_25]

Seriously Cruciform, I had my dad speak to his broker and his brolker called all the companies he works with and NOT ONE will insure a reptile owner. and I mean ANY reptile, Crested gecko included (I mention this because they are one of the few that are NOT a fire hazard).
The insurance comapny can be liable if the reptile escapes, and " gets down a toilet, into the water system, or freaks out a neighbour. Also, insurance adjusters will NOT even ENTER a home with reptiles as it is a saftey precaution"

So, I will be calling Belair to ask a few questions and see what they say. once I have called a few people, I will let you know what I found. unfortunately it iwll most likely only be good for us Montrealers... I'll keep you all posted on my findings...

and if the findings are bad, who would like to finance my new Repti-surance Home Insurance company? ;)

[Dark_Angel_25]

Ok, well we called Bel Air, and they said that If you were ALREADY insured with them then MAYBE they would insure your herps, but if you are new, then forget it. Reptiles are too much of a liability. so I guess, we are all S.O.L on home insurance...

[cuora-ca]

I have never had a problem having home insurance. I have always mentioned what I have. I did run into problems with my Pitbull though. I am now insures with TD canada trust. Most home insurances will only cover about 2000$ for pets. Since this was not satisfactory for me, I have just purchased insurances just for my herps. I had to go to a specialized insurnace company.

[Dark_Angel_25]

cuora-ca: where exactly? I really would like this information as I will need toget home insurance shortly. Can you please PM me the info or post it here? then we can all benefit from your knowledge??

[Pixie]

I am also interested in knowing what your additional coverage for your herps entails.

If you would be so kind as to post the company's name and what the coverage include, it would be greatly appreciated.

:)

Pixie

[Will]

FlexWatt makes me nervous for that exact reason. If I burned down half the house from a bad wiring job I could see the insurance company shrugging and tearing up my policy.

Anyone know if there is or will be a CSA version of this stuff anytime in the future...? I would be alot more at ease if there was...

[Lisa]

I don't think my snakes made a difference on my policy when I told them they were smaller then garter snakes they said ok don't worry about it (first they had to call some one higher up to make sure that the snakes weren't an issue).

Things that insurance companies like to hear about - locking cages, locking herp room, escape proof room.

[Piebald Guy]

So are your animals. My policy is for contents and covers pets up to $20k. You must declare them. There's more to this then meets the eye though so think hard. Flexwatt is covered via commonalities between Canada and the US. The common misconception is that it is not approved for use in Canada but the identical heat tape marketed under the brand name Flexall in the UK is totally approved in Canada. Any lawyer worth his/her weight in salt could argue this one to any judge in the land and win. Both products (as long as you wire them correctly) almost never cause fires. If they do any FD will determine cause. If it's you too bad, your loss (and ALL colateral damage). If its something else no problem, your covered.

Straight from by insurance agent. Insurance companies are NOT fools. They must list every restriction, exception and caviot in which they do not wish to cover. In fine print you should notice local by-laws. There is ALOT of information in the contract, and to tell you the truth... only a lawyer or someone familar with certain things can completly understand it. Be careful. There are other things as well.

Hope this helps,

Dave

PS check Allstate

[Jeff Hathaway]

We tried Belair when we moved (spring 2002) and found that they would not insure us due to the reptiles.

We are currently with TD Meloche Monnex and, yes, they know all about them. They even sent an inspector over to check the place out, partly because of the reptiles and partly due to the unusual nature of the property. We almost lost coverage last year because of our planned future business activities- the inspector said that we were doing presently doing things (being open to the public) that we weren't planning for some time. It was quite a fight to keep the coverage. They do not insure anything to do with our existing business activities (outreach programs), nor do they cover the animals themselves (as pets).

Some things insurance companies have told me they don't like about reptile owners:

-increased fire risk
-increased humidity levels causing water damage and mold (this one's big right now!)
-escape risk and subsequent liability

Anything we can do to reduce the above risks and claims that would result from them will help in the long term.

As for Flexwatt, much as I like it, it will never be CSA approved because you have to wire it yourself. If it arrived in standard lengths with cords already attached then it could be approved, but then that defeats one of the best features about it- flexibility.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Cruciform]

I just received this response from Stevenson and Hunt:

"Hi Mike.. I certainly have never heard of this enquiry before!!! However, I have contacted Pilot Insurance and spoke with an underwriter there. The underwriter advised that at this time they do not have any exclusions in their policies pertaining to reptiles and snakes that would hinder your ability to obtain insurance. The insurance company would be interested though in the length of a python for instance if you were to obtain one. "


When I asked her it wasn't specifically about insuring the actual snakes, but whether raising them would cause insurance issues down the road. Sounds good so far.

One thing though, anyone who is raising them and has wired their own flexwatt, and assorted electrical setups, if a fire were to happen and an inspector came through you'd probably be screwed.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Good to hear about Pilot, Cruciform- keep us posted. You're right about other wiring being an issue besides Flexwatt- according to law, all electrical wiring in Ontario now requires a permit and an inspection, regardless of whether it is done by an electrician or homeowner. This theoretically applies whether it is Flexwatt, a custom cage with lights in it, or if you wire the whole room. Not many people actually get the permits, and it isn't particularly enforced, but it could be a problem with an insurance company IF your faulty wiring was the cause of the fire.

Dave- our insurance excludes the animals themselves because they are considered to be part of the business. This could also be considered the case for anyone who is a breeder and has a name, website, business cards, etc. Most policies only cover certain kinds of home-based business and even then only aspects of their property/possessions. At least with TD Meloche Monnex, any business involving animals is not covered.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[rattler keeper]

I have no problems with insurance i deal with Co-operators,and they seem to be herp friendly,my agent came right to the house,to check them out,,then asked me to bring some of them in to show the other employees...

[daver676]

Originally posted by rattler keeper
I have no problems with insurance i deal with Co-operators,and they seem to be herp friendly,my agent came right to the house,to check them out,,then asked me to bring some of them in to show the other employees...

Wow thats cool. Where do you live in Ontario?

[C_Ellenzweig]

This is very surprising! I work for a major Canadian Insurer (I'm not going to mention which one, just incase anyone has a grudge against the company) and I've never heard of anything like these problems!?! I have asked several underwriters and claims handlers about this and they are unfamiliar with the situation.

Something you should all know is - you are NOT required to tell the insurance company anything they don't ask. Do not offer information. They (well, we, I guess) are not here to be your friends, they are here to make money. If you offer information that makes them suspect that you are a greater risk, they will not cover you.

Exception - must inform them about pets if:

1) they are dangerous to visitors (or the outside world if they escape)

2) you want to purchase specific coverage (aka Scheduled item)

3) There is a written exclusion of coverage in the policy (never heard of one excluding reptiles, but they do usually exclude damage caused by animals. This doesn't mean you won't be insured, but does mean that you are not covered by any damage caused directly by your animals)

However,

- If you are asked directly and you lie, that is called "Non-disclosure" and gives the company the right to deny your claim.

- If you breeding and selling animals, you will be considered a business and must carry small business insurance. This is due to increased risk of liability, as you are dealing with customers. (As a hobby breeder, you should not mention that you sell animals as the company will try to make you buy a business policy)

- There is no coverage for damage done by animals to your house or property. (usually with the exception of building glass, i.e. bird flies into your window)

- There is no coverage for your animals (to replace them / vetrinary care) unless their deaths/injuries are caused by a specified peril (something that you are covered for. i.e. fire, etc...)

- If you build an addition onto your house for any reason, you must report this. (I don't think modifying a small room or walk-in closet counts unless you make structural changes)

- All internal wiring should be done by a licensed electrician (Although, I do most of my own. As long as it is done to code, it is pretty much impossible to tell who did it and when)

If you use Flexwatt and it causes a fire, you most likely won't be denied coverage. It will likely be deemed "faulty wiring", but coverage will still apply, as the product is deemed safe by countries with comparable safety standards (USA, UK). You may however be denied if it is caused by negligence (i.e. You used elec. tape instead of the recommended caps to cover the connectors; You have the heat-tape exposed to water; etc...)

If an insurance company denies you coverage for owning repiles, ask to speak to an underwriting manager. Underwriters write the policies. If the manager maintains their position, ask for it in writing. (with their reasoning) You may then enquire with the Insurance Bureau of Canada, whether this is a discriminitory policy. (It seems like it to me. Dogs, cats and birds are all capable of causing large amounts of damage, as well as injury. People buy custom aquariums that could burst if not assembled properly. etc...)

If you are worried about your current coverage, ask your insurance rep or broker for a copy of your "Policy wording" to check if there is any kind of exclusion. These are not overly complicated and you shouldn't have trouble understanding them.

If your house is subject to an inspection by the insurer, try to have it done before moving in. (Therefore the house is empty) If you have to have it done after, try to remove your pets to a different location during the inspection. If that is not possible, do not leave any questionable (non CSA-approved) electrical devices plugged in (or even in sight for that matter). Switch to certified clamp lamps (or similar) while the inspector is around.

And last - If you DO find a herp friendly company, they are probably a customer oriented company (Someone mentioned Pilot - Pilot has been near the top of the Claims satisfaction ratings for several years - they are known for customer service. Probably a good choice.) These companies tend to deliver personalized service & keep their customers happy. Stick with companies like this, as they are more likely to pay out any claims without a hassle. If you deal with a large company that is more interested in the "bottom line" ($$$), you probably won't mean as much to them and they are probably much more willing to let the (slightly) increased risk out-weigh the premiums.

PS - You CANNOT be denied car insurance for reasons associated with homeowners insurance. They are not related in any way. (except the fact that you usually get a discount for having both with the same insurer)

PPS - Stupid insurance. I also love how when someone hits you, your bill goes up. Makes tons of sense. lol
This is not true. If you are not at fault, your insurance DOES NOT go up. However, if you are deemed at fault in any way, your premiums WILL go up, even if you are found to be only 5% at fault. It does not matter what % you are at fault or how much damage was done. It is considered an "At fault" accident and your insurance will increase by a set % (based on your drop in driver rating)

Good luck
Colin