Colombian BCI vs Colombian BCC

[BoidKeeper]

Other than the pic in the Boa Constrictor Manual of a True Colombian Red Tail, does anyone have any pics, or know where I can find pics of a Colombian Red Tail BCC? Again I'm not looking for pics of Colombian BCI. I'm looking for pics of Colombian BCC.
People are always calling their Colombians Red Tails when in fact I doubt they are. Does anyone have any True Colombian Red tails out there?
Thanks,
Trevor

[emroul]

Wow, this will be interesting, I didn't even know there WERE columbian BCC's, I thought there were only Columbian BCI's. Hmmm... shows how much I know about boas. :p

Jennifer

[BoidKeeper]

Yup there are. That's why I get sorta anoyed when someone calls there Colombian BCI a " Colomubian Red Tail". Or when some one calls there Colombian BCI a BCI. If you say you have a "BCI" that doesn't mean that it is a Colombian, it could be any of the insular forums as well they are all BCI too. No one calls there Suri or Guyana just a BCC do they?
I know I'm complaining about names but if we keep them all straight it helps the new people to our hobby keep them straight.
Cheers,
Trevor
PS
It's Hog with one g and Colombian not Columbian. Boas have litters not clutchs. ha ha

[BoidKeeper]

ell like it wasn't confusing enough here's what The Boaphile Jeff Ronne has to say on the subject.
All Colombians are BCC acording to Jeff Ronne (http://www.theboaphile.com/available1.php?catID=31&catName=Lovely%20Colombians)
Cheers,
Trevor

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Meristics of Boa constrictor species (http://home.att.net/~crinaustin/BoaGeneral.htm#Table2)

The best way IMO is to count scales, but then again, I have this belief that many, if not most boas out there (not only 'Colombians') are 'mutts' and are the offspring of several mixes of subspecies and localities anyhow. There are still some true species bloodlines out there, yet many are not but concidered strongly to be one or the other.

Also, who is to say that Bci are not "True Red-tails"??? I will tell ya this, some of the greatest red tails belong to BCI ssp, and there are ugly brown tails on some BCC...so that arguement is void if you trully have seen a good share of Boa constrictor.

Here is a thread at another forum from a while back, but same idea. ACC forum thread (http://accforum.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=monroe3&action=display&num=1069559295) As for colombian BCC or BCI, does it trully matter? I mean, look at it this way. Technically, it seems folks are still arguing if they are seperate species, yadda yadda yadda....
So, is your Colombian BCC or BCI? I think it is fair to go by scale counts over the color of tails or locality. Would be nice for folks to be a bit more honest if they could accept the small fact that this may ocur in their own colletions. I used to think like many others, that BCI were not "True Red-tails" either, but after a lot of time and observing what there is out there, I have gone the other way.

I did a scale count on this female of mine, who I figured for years just to be a common Colombian BCI, but after a scale count over the board, she came up 'technically' as a BCC (Under the meristics chart above)
http://hometown.aol.com/beauconstrictors/images/ramirez1.jpg
http://hometown.aol.com/beauconstrictors/images/ram2.jpg

[Linds]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
No one calls there Suri or Guyana just a BCC do they?


LOL I do, and I know many others as well. Suris and Guyanas are the same thing, so I just avoid it altogether.

[BoidKeeper]

I don't belive that for one second Linds. I'm sure they have been mixed a lot in captivity but if you went to Guyanna and then to Suriname I belive you'd see a difference.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Linds]

I'm not basing my comments on captive bred boas at all. I'm basing it on their wild counterparts. I have seen many boas come out of Guyana that were both what people described to be the "purple Guyana with dark saddles" and the "pink Suriname with lighter saddles", as well as the same come out of Suriname. It is the same land, the only difference between the two is a manmade border, the snakes certainly do not follow this invisible boundary however ;) Take a peep at a map and you will see aht I'm talking about, if you don't already. This has become accepted over the years by nearly all of the major boa breeders, however they tend to keep the labels for the percentage of people who do not still believe this to be the way :rolleyes:

[foman]

I agree with Linds.:thumbsup:

[ReptiZone]

same hear I have had some top end breeders tell me the same.

[BoidKeeper]

After I posted that I had a discussion with a friend and now I think I do agree with you about the wild boas. However in captivity I see a difference between the boas that have been selectivly bred to look like either guyana or suriname. Personally I would not cross the two. As far as scale counts go I'm sure that the captive surinames and guyans would be the same because it's the scale count that makes a BCC a BCC and a BCI a BCI. That being said what do you think about Jeff Ronne's article about all Colombians being BCC?
Cheers,
Trevor

[BoaBoi]

Am I ignorant? I was under the impression that Columbian boas were all BCI, but argued that they could be BCC. Is there really 2 different species? This is a little confusing to me.

James~

P.S. I have been calling my boa a Columbian BCI, What are the chances I have been calling it the wrong thing?

[BoidKeeper]

By calling it a Colombian BCI you're safe. The Colombia is on both sides of the Andees mountains. There are Colombian boas on both sides. The boas on one side are all BCC the boas on the other side are BCI. There are Colombians on both sides. The Boa Consticto Manual says that there are Colombian BCI and Colombian BCC and shows pics of each.
In Jeff Ronne's article he says that if you go by scale counts he belives that all Colombian boas are BCC. I posted a link to his article from his web page.
Cheers,
Trevor

[MouseKilla]

Do you think the snakes on the one side of the mountain ever go over and pick fights with the snakes from the other side, sorta like a Westside Boa Story? Nah, they can't even snap their fingers, it would never work.... thoughts of a serpentine Travolta will probably keep me up for a few days though...

Oh yeah, I didn't get an article from that link, I got like a price list.... maybe it's just me

[BoidKeeper]

I'm not sure why it's not working. Here it is again,
http://www.theboaphile.com/available1.php?catID=31&catName=Lovely%20Colombians
If that doesn't work just click on the words Boa Constrictor Constricto next to any of the pics of this Colombians and it will take you to his essay.
Cheers,
Trevor

[BoidKeeper]

I tell you what here it is,

"I believe all Colombian Boas are constrictor constrictor. This is a controversial opinion I know but it is based on the legitimate original descriptions of the various subspecies and not on any opinions written or spoken. Of course the conclusions I come to are my opinion but this is the only conclusion I can come to based on the facts written in the original descriptions.

Colombian Boas, commonly referred to as Colombian Red Tails are not Boa constrictor constrictor or Boa constrictor imperator because anyone says they are or are not. They are not one or the other because I say so. They are not one or the other because any other breeder says so. They are not one or the other because any taxonomist says so. They are not one or the other because any herp writer says so. They are not Boa constrictor constrictor or Boa constrictor imperator because of where they originate either. An all too little known FACT is that neither of the original descriptions of constrictor or imperator ever refers to any Boa constrictor found in Colombia. They are completely silent on any of the specifics of Boa Constrictors found in Colombia. So anything that anyone says about the particular subspecies these animals belong to is strictly speculation based on absolutely nothing factual unless they specifically reference the original writing for the two descriptions mentioned earlier to scientifically categorize Colombian Boas into either constrictor constrictor or constrictor imperator.

So what are the facts? Categorizing Colombian Boas into the proper subspecies whether that be constrictor constrictor or constrictor imperator can only be done be studying these animals in light of the specific physical differences between constrictor and imperator. The fundamental difference between these two is scale rows. Imperator has only up to 79 scale rows. Constrictor has 80 and over. It is that simple. Read the original descriptions which were written without any prejudice or to prove or disprove anything. They were not written to strong arm some group of animals into one group or another but to set up the standard by which future scientists like wanna be scientist such as myself. These descriptions or “keys” were written to clarify what species or subspecies a given Boa Constrictor could be classified as and to set about laying out an accurate scientific record of these animals and their far more detailed descriptions that I can get into here.

Now, I have done an extensive amount of scale row counting on my Boas over these many years. This was done more than ten years ago using the many many Colombian Boas I had in my collection that were the Colombians of old. I counted no fewer than 30 different specimens. That is Colombians that were imported into the United States in the 70’s, 80’s and their descendants. I do not have any specific information regarding the exact locality of any of the Colombian Boas I own. However I do know that every single Boa I counted had more than 80 scale rows. Most had around 85 scale rows with a high of 89 scale rows on one particular animal. Jim Pomaville a Boa Constrictor Whacko like me from way back (Actually from farther back) has counted the scale rows on numerous newly imported Colombian Boas as well. Guess what? Every single one of these animals is constrictor constrictor as well based upon the number of scale rows.

This is why my opinion is that all Colombian Boas are actually Boa constrictor constrictor and not imperator.

I hope this is not confusing for anyone. The Boas that most people breed and sell as imperator, assuming they are Colombian Boas, are the same subspecies as the Colombians I am breeding. We simply disagree on which subspecific name ought to be affixed to these equal animals.

I do not however believe as some would inaccurately presuppose that it is perfectly fine to breed any constrictor constrictor with any other constrictor constrictor. I am not a totally extreme locality whacko as some of my good friends are BUT I would never ever consider breeding a Colombian with a Surinam. I don’t think it’s a moral issue mind you but just one that is my preference to keep things clean and straight. Anything that anyone is attempting to accomplish breeding dramatically different locals of Boas together can be achieved the old fashioned hard work and selective breeding over multiple generations way. This is the way I prefer to do it. Ten years ago the pinkest Boas out there were probably some Surinam Red Tails. Today I produce Colombians that blow away these same high pink Surinams. I did it the old fashioned way through hard work and selective breeding. So please do not mischaracterize or misunderstand what I will do or think anyone else should do based on my iconoclastic opinion regarding the proper and scientifically agreeable subspecies that Colombian Boas belong in.

Thank you,

Jeff Ronne"

[MouseKilla]

Very interesting... I wish I knew the method of counting scale rows, I know if I just winged it I'd get some crazy number that couldn't possibly be right... I think the whole thing just shows how little most of us really know about the animals we keep. I call my boa a Colombian BCI but in all honesty I don't know if either part of that description is true to it's lineage.

If the counting of scale rows is a reliable means of distinguishing BCI from BCC then it should be easy to sort out what you have. But from my admittedly uneducated perspective, the difference between them seems to be somewhere between negligible and imaginary. I mean 79 rows and under on one side and 80 and up on the other? Sounds a lot like someone just drew an arbitrary line through the middle of a population of snakes and assigned a different name to each group.

[Dark_Angel_25]

how DOES the scale count thing work? is it from thebelly scales? the back? the side? do tell as I would like to see what my Red Tail would be classified as by this means... Please do tell!!