New Cham and questions

[Susan Marshall]

I got my little guy finally about a week ago and he is doing well but I do have a couple of questions i was hoping to get feedback on. The first question is how do you cup train a cham, mine doesn't go near it and he only gets the good worms if I am lucky enough to drop one on the leaf right in front of him. Otherwise they just fall to the floor and are wasted. I just spent 100.00 getting an order of Butterworms, waxworms and silkworms from Toronto and they are being wasted it's such a shame. I just want the best for him, He is so cute. He is too shy yet to hand feed. The 2nd question is I have misted his cage so many times and he never drinks?? Is this normal. Even when we put the dripper on for him he never goes near it. He does on the other hand have a good appetite. I have seen him eat 15 small crickets and 2 waxworms in 1 day and his body length from the tip of his nose not including his tail is about 3 to 3 1/2 inches long. I appreciate your input .

Cheers!
Susan

[tHeGiNo]

I would say just make sure the feeding cup is placed low in the foliage of the enclosure, towards the bottom of the cage. They will best approach the feeding cup from an upward position down towards the prey. This will also help to ensure the chameleon doesn't hit the side of the cup while hunting, LOL. Try different things: show him inside the cup, place him above the cup, etc etc. Thats all I have to offer as I am not too experienced in this field. I am a believer in free range prey. Much more beneficial IMHO, and would recommend it.

As far as drinking, so long as you are spraying a good amount I am sure he is drinking. Often times, they will lick up the dew off the leaves when your not looking. It sometimes takes a while before they start drinking as the water drops on them. Just keep the dripper and keep misting and I am sure he will be fine.

[dank7oo]

Hey Susan.
Great to see you here, and hopefully I can assist you with a few of your problems.

Cup feeding - As theGino said, the angle of the cup may be a problem. However, if you chameleon is under 6 months of age, he may not cup feed. I have cup fed two of my chameleons. The veiled started at 9 months and the panther at 7 months. I give them some in the cup, and also free roam some so they don't get a lazy tongue.

As for the spraying. What kind of chameleon is he? A veiled? If so, just watch for signs of dehydration, such as sunken in eyes or wrinckly skin. I wouldn't worry otherwize. Chameleons usually drink when you aren't looking, and compared to other species, I find that veiled do in fact drink less than the majority. My panther for example drinks almost everytime I spray him, whereas my veiled would drink once a week, but would drink a lot when he did.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

Jason

[tHeGiNo]

Also what I have noticed with my Veileds is that they will not drink directly as I spray them unless I spray in their immediate direction for a minute or two. They eventually begin to drink as the water hits them. Again, I wouldn't be too worried about this because as I mentioned they often drink the dew right off the foliage when you aren't looking.

On a little side note, I read somewhere that Veileds take a while before they begin to drink as you spray them, rather then solely drinking the dew off leaves. This wasn't the case for mine, but you never know. I really don't think you have anything to worry about, but you could still watch for the signs of dehydration which dank suggested.

[choriona]

Yeah, veileds are sneaky drinkers. Once in a blue moon do I see them drink. But I spray them every day to keep the humidity up - they breathe that moisture in. And I ahve also noticed that you must sometimes be spraying for a good 5 minutes before they become interested.

As for the feeding - when they are young, take advantage of the fact that they are liking crickets. Gut load them and dust 'em up real good for the growing period. I would try not to offer the other bugs until your cham gets bigger. Unless you are already past 6 months. Just an opinion.
Can I ask why you want to cup-train? If your enclosure allows, I would let the bugs free roam. As for the worms, you can get a ceramic dish that is wide and low (like a cat food plate thingy). If the sides are smooth and high enough, the worms can't get out, but the shape is not quite a bowl/cup deep dark scarry place to put your tounge. Try it out. If your cham gets used to the bugs being in one place, graduate to a deeper dish that will trap crickets that are too stupid to jump. This can simply be a larger diameter bowl like a dog food dish, or my favorite the zip-loc container bowl. This works better when the cham is bigger and in a bigger house. (ie bigger than the bowl)

[Susan Marshall]

Thank you for your suggestions. He is a veiled and he definitely looks plump and not wrinkly at all. I have been gutloading the crickets with Minerall and fish food flakes fruit etc and have been dusting his crickets. He is scared of the Silkworms I think but loves the butterworms and waxworms. He won't even consider mealworms. I am not sure how old he is. Does anyone know what the average age of a 3 to 3 1/2 inch long body is? He is very active always on the move hunting for those crix. He has great colour nice and bright green.

[vipervenom]

If he is fairly new then he is still adjusting to his cage and new home. Give it time. But he shouldn't have too many worms because they are very fatty. Also, he needs time to get used to the misting and the dripper. He will eventually drink. Mist him first thing in the morning to simulate morning dew. Get a non-toxic and not transparent dish and just put a couple crickets int here and leave for say 30 minutes and come back to see if they are gone. Usualyl they are too shy to eat inf ront of people that asre new to them. He will eventually eat from your hand, running in his cage and from a cup. Give him time.

[Collide]

Hey Susan

some chams hate cut feeding they need that trill of the hunt thing. try putting the silks on the branches and let them move around they cant get far and it will give your guy some time to get used to them.. also i have noticed that although all chams love silks this dont come fast every cham i have given there first silk has spit them out. Took abit to get them to like them.

Now as for the butter worms if he is not eating them u can keep them in the frig and then they wont go to wast so you can keep them longer...

And although clear containers are good for you cham to see the food just watch for him tryine to hit food through the container.

He is still small to might be a bit shy. Oh and watch out for too much fish flake that is alot of proteen so i wouldent use it as a constant suplement it could cause problems later on if over used, but mineralll is great.

Gongrats on your new baby your gonna have to take some pic's hehe;)

Hope that helped

Oh and probably sround 4 months or soo

Brandy

[meow_mix450]

its normal f you dnt see them drink its rare, but if you had a panther you would be sure that you would see them drink hope everything works out

Meow

[Collide]

Just another thought silks are very liquidy lots of hydration in them and they are very filling as well. so they might be filling him up.

[vipervenom]

Meow mix, I disagree completly about it's rare to see a cham drink. It's actually not a very good sign if you don't see them drink. And clear containers are not to be used in cup feeding. If the cham hit the cup, he runs the risk of a toungue infection.

[vipervenom]

Oh ya, and DO NOT use fish flake food. I have had all my crickets die from fish food. Use a variety of different coloured vegetables. There are also commercialyl available gutloads out there too.

[gfisher2002]

Meow Mix has a point. I see my Panther Drinking everyday. However, it is hard to catch some veiled cham at it. Alot are very shy and timid and WON't drink if you're standing there watching. If they are comfortable with your presence you should see them drinking but if they are not, it might be hard to catch them in the act. Not to say Veiled's drink less, just that they may be less likely to drink infront of you.

And a clear cup is risky cause if the cham tries to nail a cricket through the side, the tongue strikes the glass first and they may develop a strained or torn muscule in their tongue. Don't know how an infection fits into that?

And I agree, stay away from fish food. Just use commercial gutload, oranges, oats, sweet potatoes, etc.

[meow_mix450]

hmmm are oranges good to gut load, i heard that its no good for chams, but i feed tem oranges, as well...

Meow

[tHeGiNo]

Vipervenom,

Meow mix, I disagree completly about it's rare to see a cham drink. It's actually not a very good sign if you don't see them drink.

I'm sorry but do you have a clue what you are talking about? Do you own a Veiled chameleon yourself? It is absolutely 100% completely normal to not see a veiled chameleon drink. It in no shape, way or form a sign of unhealthiness, nor is it a 'bad sign'. I sometimes have to spray one of my Veileds for five minutes straight before I see him drink. Infact, often times, I empty a whole spray bottle, refill it, then spray some more before he starts drinking as it falls on him. Anyhow, once more, not seeing your VEILED CHAMELEON drink is not a bad thing. Panthers and Veileds are two different species of chameleon. As I mentioned earlier, veileds often consume water through licking the dew off leaves and the water content in prey items.

If the cham hit the cup, he runs the risk of a toungue infection.

Using a clear cup causes a potential for injury, not infection. May you please explain where the infection comes in?

**EDIT** As I see mentioned already, the injury comes from smacking the cup while trying to hit a bug which they see through the cup.

Also, I don't think it was the fish flakes killing your crickets. Maybe a lack of hydration, but I am not sure about fish flakes. I used to use it as a gutlod prior to understanding its high protein levels (it is composed of a great deal of fish, afterall).

Moral: please refrain from putting false information into peoples minds. If your making assumptions and don't know what you are talking about, don't post.

Alot are very shy and timid and WON't drink if you're standing there watching.

Although it is a possibility, I think it is more that they don't usually drink in that manner. They are more accustomed to licking dew off leaves. I figure, once it has 'rained' for long enough, they just decide to start drinking. Or something like that; regardless I have doubts that it has to do with being shy.

[gfisher2002]

TheGino, about the not drinking when your there, I meant while misting. I know some veils we get at work are so shy when your around the won't drink when I'm standing there no matter how long you spray for. But if I leave, when I peek around the corner he'll be drinking off the leaves. I just meant it as apossibility that the cham might be too stressed to drink in his presence.

[tHeGiNo]

Gfisher2002,

Yep, thats exactly what I mean! :D From my experience, I am suggesting that they do not drink while we mist simply because that is not their way of drinking! Some will, right off the bat, drink as you spray. I am not saying it never happens, but I think it is more of a preference thing.

[meow_mix450]

ya i find that crikets need a lot of water all the time, and not t much or they die, but i dont think it fish food....but that could also be the cause

Meow

[tHeGiNo]

Anything could have been wrong with the crickets, it could have been a bad batch, sprayed with pesticides, etc etc. I wouldn't blame the fish food, LOL.

What I do, to give them water, is give them potatoes cut into quarters. Along with my gutload, I rarely lose over 20 crickets with every thousand I buy (I get two thousand at a time, and separate them into two bins).

[choriona]

you can also give crickets water by having a bowl of water full of cotten balls. Then they walk on the moiste cotton and drink from it without being in deep water to drown in. This is an easy method if you are keeping no more than 50 crix. It will get stinky, so you have to wash the bowl every time you get new crickets.


For my chams, each one has a running water fountain. That way, the morning and afternoon misting allows for a humidity increase, but if they are thirsty they can drink from the fountain. It has worked for me for over 4 years. I have only once or twice seen them drink from their fountain, but they are NEVER dehydrated!

If your little guy is still young, and he sounds small, he will be fine with regular mistings for now. I don't know the size of your water bottle, but approximately 3-6 cups of water is sufficient. Spray that in each time, at least twice a day, if not more. Check your hygrometer to see that you are maintaining a proper humidity level. I would try to keep it around 60% for the times that you are not spraying - so that will tell you how often you should spray. If you are doing that, it wont matter if you never see him drink. :)

[vipervenom]

Infection comes in when the chameleons oungue hits the cup and can get harmful bacteria and other germs on his toungue. I am sorry about the post of Veields should drink water inf ront of you. I don't know what I was thinking. I have just talked to many people and they are suprised to ehar that my cham never drinks in front of me. I assumed and I was wrong. But I have been warned about cup feeding in clear plastic because of toungue infection and yes phycical damage like not veing able to retract the toungue. And now that I think about, I have heard of people's chams getting an infectionf rom hitting the cup too hard. I guess just my opinion on that but I wouldn't use a clear container. A solid one will work fine if it is below the cham.

[vipervenom]

Also, with the crickets, I have tried many batches with fish food and they all died. As soon as I stopped feeding them tyhat they were fine. It could have just been the kind of fish food. Aslo witht he cotton ball idea, justw atch out they don't have any chemicals on them liek alcohol. I have also heard sponges work very well for cricket drinking. But I stand by what I said with a waterfall. I am against them. They are bacteria breeding grounds. And unless cleaned every other day at least, then I wouldn't have it. Spray as much until the humidity is 50-90% or if it is there spray for your cham to drink. Sorry if I offended any one.

[vipervenom]

Sorry again. Spraying your cham directly sometimes stresses the cham out. Try not directly hitting him. Also, if you fill up the bottle with hot water, by the time you spray the mist and it gets to the cham, the mist has cooled down to at least lukewarm and is much more appreciated by your cham.

[meow_mix450]

hehe i use cotton balls for them to drink of off as well it works great

Meow

[tHeGiNo]

No one was offended, it just bothers me when false or regurged info is given.

Spraying your cham directly sometimes stresses the cham out.

Exactly like that, LOL! May you provide what proof you have that spraying them directly stresses them out? Sure, if your spraying full blast with a super soaker. Or if you do not put the water bottle to the misting position. Other then that, I hightly doubt it stresses them out. I don't think, in the wild, Veiled chameleons have the ability to control where the rain does or does not drop, afterall.

I do agree with you, partially, in regards to the waterfall. I used to use them with mine, but because I feed free roaming insects, it definitely was removed as an option. The crickets would constantly drown, get sucked up the water pump, etc etc. Needless to say, THIS was a breeding ground for bacteria.

However, if kept cleaned and changed daily (or regularly), and cleaned immediately if decated upon, I see no problem with using them.

[tHeGiNo]

Infection comes in when the chameleons oungue hits the cup and can get harmful bacteria and other germs on his toungue.

If thats the case, then we should house chameleons in an invisible enclosure with floating bugs, so that it cannot hit anything with his tounge except the floating bugs. Also, again if this was the case, whats the difference if he hits the inside of the cup?

The only problem I see with using a clear cup is that the chameleon will REPEATEDLY try to catch bugs through the cup. Also, 'physical damage like not being able to retract the tounge' is called hyperextension of the tounge, and I doubt hitting a cup is the cause of it.

[gfisher2002]

ViperVenom, if you look real close to the bottom left corner of you posts, there's a button that says Edit. If you click it, you can add, delete or change your post. I just noticed that often you make like 3 or 4 posts within minutes of eachother to say something. You can just keep adding it to your original post. Just a thought.

I mean no offence, just keeps the threads easier to read with less individual posts.

[vipervenom]

Sorry about this post, it accidentally posted twice and it won't let me delete this one.

[vipervenom]

Oh, thanks! I didn't even think of that! I'll do that for now on gfisher2002. And, okay, I see your point TheGino on if it could catch bacteria fromt he cup then it could catch it anywhere. But, I don't understand why you think that hitting a cup too many times couldn't cause hyperextension problems? Many things can happen if he hit it many many times. My cham used to hit the clear cup I had for him a long while back and some times it took him a little longer to retract his toungue. Maybe if hit enough the cham couldn't retract at all! All in all, stay away from clear containers unless you want to risque a problem. My opinion...

[dank7oo]

VV,

Hitting the cup too many times isn't the issue (correct me if I am wrong) but it is the tongue sticking to the cup, and when being pulled in stressed the muscles as it is being pulled back into the mouth. That's personally why I have stopped cup feeding all together; stresses the tongue and lazy tongue.

Jason

[tHeGiNo]

Vipervenom,

It is simple, just break down the word, it means to extend further. Hyperextension of the tounge occurs when the chameleon flings his tounge out farther then it is supposed to go, if I am not mistaken. At least thats what the name implies ;).

[tHeGiNo]

Hitting the cup too many times isn't the issue (correct me if I am wrong) but it is the tongue sticking to the cup, and when being pulled in stressed the muscles as it is being pulled back into the mouth.

Makes sense, yes. Thats exactly what I mean. But then, thats a possibility any where its eating isnt it? So in a way I am contradicting myself.

[gfisher2002]

Hitting the cup isn't more harmful than hitting the bottom when they eat. The risk of damage comes in when they see something behind glass and shoot their tongue out say 8" to get it. Only the tongue nails the glass side at 5 inches and it confuses and possibly hurts the cham. Eating out of a glass container from the top is fine. He's not aiming for past the bottom, he's aiming for the cricket. It's something farther than the glass infront of them that poses a risk.

[Susan Marshall]

Yippee. I caught him licking water droplets today off of the silk vine leaves. He is sure sneaky about it. I will refrain from using fish flakes but that is not just what i have gutloaded with. I have fed the crickets on VIT-ALL from Sticky tongue farms as well as apples and greens. I also give the crickets easy water which is like a jelly so that the crickets stay hydrated but don't drown. This little guy has a ferocious appetite. As for the glass bowl it's sitting on the soil at the bottom of his plant so when you look into it the bottom is solid but maybe I should rethink this. I did see him sitting on the side and eating butterworms and waxworms out of it yesterday.

Thanks for all everyones good suggestions. We really love this little guy. My children are very respectful and only watch him from a distance so My husband and I are really the only ones that feed him or do anything with his cage.

Susan

[meow_mix450]

yay great to hear thats are great, keep us posted and good luck with the guy:)

Meow

[Susan Marshall]

I forgot to mention that I have crickets that are free roaming in his cage I just wanted something for the worms so I didn't loose them all to the floor and in the crevices of the floor. What I do for misting is every morning when the kettle is cooling down I fill a large water bottle that holds about 30 oz of water and thoroughly soak his leaves down. I do this about 3 times a day.

Susan

[meow_mix450]

get a little pot dish and put the worms in there, thats wut i did

Meow

[Collide]

for me I find that sliks stick to the branches that works fime and as for the worms that will dissipear on me i do this with it empty with worms and just hang it from the branchesunder them seems to work for most of them but some will only eat worms from my hand for some strange reason mabey because i squeeze them and make them wiggle lol.

http://www.elev8r.com/chams/Image132.jpg

Oh its just made from a clothes hanger

[meow_mix450]

lol ha ha thats a funny word squeeze!

Meow

[Susan Marshall]

That looks like a great idea but I am going to need a stronger stick. Right now I have a large plant but it doesn't have any branches just large leaves that grow upwards. I have a thin stick in there but need to find a more sturdy one to hold the worm pot. I have stayed away from hand feeding as he is new and I have wanted him to feel safe. He walked onto my hubby's arm yesterday by mistake.

Susan

[Collide]

you should have lots of stick in there for him to walk on now, although the sticks may be small they will need to be upgraded when he grows bigger and that will happen fast trust me veilds grow like weeds. wen they are small a large plant is great but when they start to grow that plant becomes useless for climbing. Oh if he is comfortable comming out let him because once he gets to be about 1 he will be grumpy (unless your lucky). I know some really good cham sites for refrence if you would like send me a Pm and ill give u a list.

[choriona]

Sounds like you're on the right track Susan. Now you just have to get the pics up and running!

[Susan Marshall]

I'm not quite sure how to make a photo small enough to post.

Susan

[meow_mix450]

photo shop or even paint....and you save it and upload

Meow