another sav question

[Bartman]

Im posting a link because the post started out to be showing a pic of my sav thats starting to do better..but i have a question right under it..plz look at it if you know ur varanids :)

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35762

thanks a lot!!

[V.hb]

Hey posted here as it'l be moved if it was there..
he looks kind of emaciated to me, possibly dehydrated?
is he eating every time food is offered now?

[Bartman]

yea..and he deffinetly has a full time supply of water. I made the water fall on one end of a tub and the other end is like a soaking, drinking hole. Would he be scared of the running water?

[Bartman]

oo and whats emaciated? same as dehydrated??
How can you tell, maybe if i look at him without looking through a picture i can verify this..thanks for the concern and info!

[Jeff_Favelle]

He doesn't look good. Does he have access to 130F + basking spot, as well as unlimited food? It takes literally no time at all for these guys to bounce back from being real thin and/or dehydrated. Not like a snake at all. If its been any length of time that he's looked like this, I'd say you have problems that either you haven't fixed yet, or you have problems with the monitor that aren't fixable.

Post pics of the cage and you will get 1000x more help. 99% of keeping monitors is how you set up the living arrangements.

[V.hb]

what jeff said man,
we need to see how you're doing things.

[Bartman]

k ill get them up asap..and yea the basking spot is about 120..is that to low?

[asphyxia]

You may want to consider packin some rat pinks/pups and fuzzies into that fella, I never cout the crix yiou give him just put handfulls in (I dust mine0. I always have a few dozen just running aroundthe enclosure at all times.


Good Luck
Brian

[Bartman]

thats how i try and have it..im gonna buy 7 dozen tomorrow because there are a lot of places for them to hide and maybe he isnt seeing them. Im also gonna buy some silks because he seems to like those...i tried feeding him pinkies but he doesnt seem to notice anything unless it moves..how do you guys feed yours pinkies?

[Bartman]

here are some pics of the enlcosure...plz dont be harsh if im doing something wrong..i want to learn, and thanks for the concern and info...
the baskin spot you see is just at 120..should i get a higher wattage bulb?
under the rocks is a good hideing spot on the warm side
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953DSC00001-med.JPG
in this picture there is a hide right outside the water fall tub where the cork bark is..and the tub is where he can get a drink whenever he wants
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953DSC00002-med.JPG

[Bartman]

there is a uvb light in there aswell..i know some people dont use it but i added it anyways just for more light and to help him anyways

[Bartman]

how much should i throw in the tank, food wise. How many crix, or mice should i feed each day? Caresheets out there arnt very good...ive read as many as a i can but all they say about diet is that they eat mice and all sorts of insects..at the store near me i have available all different kinds of rats/mice, silks, wax, butters, crix, and im pretty sure they have super worms as well..what should i buy and give him each day?

[asphyxia]

Hi, to answer 2 posts up

7 dozen may last him 2-3 days IMO you need to start purchasing crix amd mealies by the 1000's ($25.00 BTW), I feedboth F/T and live to my 9 monitors.

Just but the pinks in a heavy bowl like the ceramic ones.

B

[Bartman]

i did that but they just end up rotting

[asphyxia]

lol this thread is getting messy
and Im getting messed up in the order but let me say a few things

1 Get dirt lots like 10-12"
2. loose the rocks before they slip and crush the little dude.

Random Notes:
You need a different light IMO try a flood for a wider beam

Rotting Rinks- No one said that it would be cheep

As the sav is still small I would build it a stack like this
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/3049/985retes_stack_3.jpg
To build one see this:
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=3049&ppuser=985

[V.hb]

What you may want to do is just put him on paper towel until hes fully functional and looks healthy. Since cypress mulch can harbor crickets, it can also harbor parasites and lots of other crap the monitor may. Keeping him completely clean is the way to go for now.. If the mulch is still clean just put it into a trash bag for later use.... That way crickets cannot hide, and like Brian said, use pinkies!

[Bartman]

i used paper towl for a short time and at that point he seemed to stop eating. If i try it again do you think this will stress him out to much? I just figured a drastic change in his environment would make him start fasting again...

[Bartman]

as for the rocks sliping..almost all of them are glued together so there wont be any slipping but im gonna take your advice anyway and start thinking about building your rack hide idea..thanks for the detailed info!

[Bartman]

o and what kind of dirt? like from outside (woudlnt that be dangerous for mites n things) and if not what would the dirt be called at lets say home depot..what do i ask for? dirt? lol, does it matter what kind..should i be looking for a specific type?

thanks everyone!!!

[Bartman]

sorry for all the questions i just wanna know what im doign wrong..and again thanks for all the help guys..jsut one more question..v.hb what does emaciated mean and how can you tell that he is dehydrated..as i said before this could help me indentify when he is not dehydrated or emaciated as you said..or maybe i can verify if he is or isnt

thanks!

[Jeff_Favelle]

The rocks would be a good idea to get rid of. Good stuff. Also, even though the rocks were there and the basking spot was 120F+, was there room to bask? It looks like those rocks actually got in the way of allowing the Sav. to just sprawl out and bask freely. That's what you want. A nice big flat place where the flood lamp hits the surface evenly, warming up a ncie big place for the monitor to sit and thermoregulate. And that's why that rack idea works so well. I would ditch the holes on the rack though. Its been debated by two very well known people back and forth, but I agree with the inventor of the rack that the holes just defeat the very purpose of the rack!

And you can tell he's dehydrated/skinny/emaciated because of the folds of skin and overall skinniness. Savannas are quite bulky (for a monitor) so when they look as skinny as a snake, something is wrong. Plus the head looks HUGE on the body, suggesting that it has been underfed its whole life. Savannas can reach adult size in LESS than a year! Actually, when kept under proper conditions, MOST do.

Get Ravi's book. It explains everything.




o and what kind of dirt?

Silty alkaline dirt. Not too much organic matter. None is best. NOT soil. Dirt. Fine dirt. It doesn't harbour any mites that will be a problem for your Sav. Looks just like this:

http://members.shaw.ca/galleryb/dirt1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/galleryb/dirt2.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/galleryb/dirt3.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/galleryb/dirt4.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/galleryb/dirt5.jpg

[NiagaraReptiles]

Originally posted by V.hb
What you may want to do is just put him on paper towel until hes fully functional and looks healthy. Since cypress mulch can harbor crickets, it can also harbor parasites and lots of other crap the monitor may. Keeping him completely clean is the way to go for now.. If the mulch is still clean just put it into a trash bag for later use.... That way crickets cannot hide, and like Brian said, use pinkies!


You were doing good until right there V.hb ;)

Monitors are tough, and fantastic healers by nature. Monitors need certain resources to allow them to complete thier life cycle, they need these same resources to stay healthy and to be all the monitor they can be. Often times human intervention with an injured monitor only causes more harm than good.

Concentrate on a good enclosure and husbandry methods and everything else just falls into place.

My other thoughts on this post and your pictures, Bartman, is that if your monitor is eating as much as you say, he should not be a skinny as he is. There's a good chance he has a growing parasite load and I would recommend taking it to a qualified vet for a fecal and treatment. He also looks a little dehydrated to me as well..........think of how a Sav would stay hydrated in the wild. is a small pool of standing water enough?........and this bring us back to the substrate issues......

Best wishes, and dispite all the constructive critisizm in this thread, you weren't as far off as most beginners ;) Just a little more tweaking and you'll be good to go.

JonK

[V.hb]

Only recommended paper towel so he could fatten up... Its much better than cypress for hunting crickets dont you think? since the ground is frozen, it would be tricky to get any good substrate till spring. If i use paper towel, its for no longer than a weeks time just to ensure the animals eating all its food, its worked for me in the past.

I just noticed in the pic you're using a pet store bulb, those are complete crap. Get a halogen flood, and move it around until you get a good bask, and a good ambient.. Then give him a FLAT basking spot to sit on yours looks a bit awkward.

what jon says makes alot of sense too correct husbandry corrects lots of problems. However I do think they need certain care when they seem ill, or stressed (like strictly clean enclosures 24/7) and paper towel is very easy to clean, and easy to keep humidity levels up. Definatly not a permanent thing, just until you can see that hes eating all of his food, if he is, great. Get some dirt and let him hunt away with peace of mind!

[Bartman]

can you get that dirt at like canandian tire in the gardening section or home depot or will i have to weight till the snow goes away?

My problem with the crickets was that my parents didnt like the idea of so many bugs in the house so if i buy the 1000 im gonna build this cage i have an idea and keep them in the garage. Im gonna start building the cage today beacuse it shouldnt be to hard and then do any of you know where i could grab 1000 crix for 25 bucks like you said? is that american or would it be more. I have a reptile store near me, reptilia, and do you guys think if i just asked them to give me 1000 for 25 they would or is the a very low price? I just dont want to sound dumb :)

thanks

[dean_h00]

TAKE IT TO A VET

[asphyxia]

"can you get that dirt at like canandian tire in the gardening section or home depot"

"Im gonna start building the cage today beacuse it shouldnt be to hard and then do any of you know where i could grab 1000 crix for 25 bucks like you said? "

In My Opinion...

AS A TEMPORY SOLUTION - Go and get some black earth at Home depot, ask someone, it will be outside should cost about 2.50 its in a green bag. Throw about 2 (Room Temperature) bags into your tank, with the mulch, When you are at home depot pick up another lamp
$13.00, and put a 75 +/- watt Heat glow bulb in for 24 Hr heat.
Also get a 50, 75, and 100 watt Halogan Lamps...See what works for you. Hook up the new Halogon lamps to a (Heavyduty) timmer From Home Depot $12.00 put in on for 12hr (this may be up for discussion)

Skip building a cric cage just go to walmart and get a rubbermaid and a heating pad. While your are there get a Digital Prob thermomiter-10.00

I do get a deal on Crix, (15-20.00) but $25-3$5 is average Call around starting with Grant at PCPC and Various PJ's
Also get some supermeal worms.


Cheers
Brian

[Jeff_Favelle]

can you get that dirt at like canandian tire in the gardening section or home depot or will i have to weight till the snow goes away?

They don't sell dirt. That is soil. You don't want soil, you want dirt. You'll probably have to wait until the snow goes away. However, if its just a youngster, the dirt becomes less of a "must have". They can grow just fine on soil-type mixes. I actually have found some of my monitors to grow faster on this soil mixture I concocted. I can't explain it.

So if its just a youngin', I would say that any soil/dirt would do for the time being.

[reptiguy123]

Jeff, I really like that monitor's pose in the second picture:)

Bartman:
If you really want to know if your soil is good to put in the cage, then post your location so that we can see if it is a suitable area or not. If not, consider what Jeff said.

The best of luck to you!:D

[Bartman]

i live in toronto

[Bartman]

ok this is what i changed today..i got a 100 watt bulb made special for reptiles from reptilia..it gives me a basking spot of 130 exactly so thats good...i also built the hide rack idea that someone posted, dont remember, and i put that in. I also got a bunch of crix until i figure out what im gonna do bout the 1000 thing.

About the dirt..im confused now because ive gotten different replies..ok i live in toronto so the ground is frozen solid. Bout the dirt what exactly should i get..the black earth from home depot? I dont wanna buy somethign and then you guys tell me it aint good..so before i buy it you all can agree that i get black earth? Is there something i can get permenently?
Does home depot sell the dirt id need?

dean_h00 - plz explain to point of that post? Hes not sick i just need to tweek out my set up..plz dont post when you dont know what your talking about..im taking advice from v.hb, asphyxia, and jeff..i know they know there stuff so dont comment unless you have something i can use

[Bartman]

here are the pcis of my new rack thingy
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953Copy_of_basking_spot.JPG
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953Copy_of_side_view_basking_rack.JPG
this is still without the dirt because as i said i just wanna make sure i get the right kind

[Bartman]

as you can see i took the advice and made it so he can sprawl out like you guys said he needed

[asphyxia]

"About the dirt..im confused now because ive gotten different replies.."

I consider both Jeff, Vhb, Steve B and others here friends and very knowledgable But we will not agree on everything ...its a lot of trial and error and learning.

"ok i live in toronto so the ground is frozen solid. Bout the dirt what exactly should i get..the black earth from home depot? "

IMO- Yes as per my post. Till the summer, I got some excellent dirt from a feild @ Davis and Bayview- (after a year of searching, and I still had to make some adjustments like adding oak leaves)

I dont wanna buy somethign and then you guys tell me it aint good..

Its only 2.50 a bag.

so before i buy it you all can agree that i get black earth?
haha- no

Is there something i can get permenently? _dirt in the Summer still has to be topped up and changed once and a while

Does home depot sell the dirt id need?----Yes
One of My Enclosures
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/985Boa_BFC2_009-med.jpg
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/985Durms_etc_017-med.jpg

[Bartman]

ambiant temp on the warm side is 90, as i said the basking spot is exactly 130 and the cool side is about 85 up or down dependeding how far down i move the thermometer. If i put it against the wall its 83ish and if i put it at the end up the water fall tub its 85+. I also added a water dish just incase he didnt want to drink from the waterfall tub...if the water is gone in the dish quickly then i know i should keep it in there all the time.

[Bartman]

so what would i ask for if home depot has the dirt i need? Just ask for black earth or dirt..or is that the same thing?
thanks, just need clarification

[norman]

I just want to say 'way to go' to Bartman. You don't usually see people taking advice this graciously, eagerly, and making the adjustments so promptly! Anyway, keep it up, these guys know what they're talking about!

[Bartman]

thanks for the nice comment..things like that really make me love this site :D

I realized this IS my first sav so if i tell these guys no, ill prob end up killing him...i really enjoy keeping this sav so i wanna do everything in my power to make sure hes doing good :) Again thanks for the reply norman!

[Bartman]

woah that enclosure looks amazing!!!
are those real plants?

[reptiguy123]

Very natural looking! I'm impressed:D

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's looking way better Bartman. I like the rack you built. I think its very functional! Good stuff man.

I think you Sav can grow just fine on what you have for now. Its not ideal, but there are many substrates that do many things. You want growth and that's it. And what you have now can do that. Its not ideal, but tearing apart the cage and re-doing the entire setup is not really ideal either. I would keep your temps the way they are, don't bug the animal too much, and feed every day. They eat EVERY day. That's what monitors do. And then in the spring, we can go find some dirt. No probs.

You're putting a TON of work into this animal, and don't think that its going unnoticed! Good stuff man.

[Bartman]

ok so what i have now is ok until it warms up and i can find some dirt, from what i understand? thanks for the complements, replies, and solid info you guys are giving me!

[asphyxia]

Jeff Thinks it fine as is.
I think you should add a bag of black earth...Till summer
IMO- It will allow for more humidity and less hiding places for the Crix

No one is wrong, we just different opinions in this case

Well Done
Brian

[Jeff_Favelle]

Adding a few inches of soil (not wet) won't hurt. Just don't disturb him too much and don't muck around with the cage. It will quickly make the environment IT'S territory, and if you keep changing it, then the Sav won't start to progress. But adding a little soil here or there should muck things up too bad.

[V.hb]

I think you'll see some pretty quick results from what you've done already. The main reason I suggested paper towel was due to crickets, and i cant stand potting soil! it gets too dusty too quickly but if you use it with the cypress mulch it should be ok providing your ventilation isnt to high. I said he looked emaciated due to the folds, like jeff said as well as his eyes. he looks lethargic, and you posted that he did before as well. But like I said above, you've improved everything really nicely, So keep us all updated!

[reptiguy123]

I agree with the points mentioned.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I totally agree with V.hb about the eye-thing. A monitor's eyes looks like a bird's eyes man! No kidding. They are alert and WIDE. Just like this photo:

Good call V.hb!

http://members.shaw.ca/galleryb/dirt5.jpg

[reptiguy123]

You seem to like showing off your pictures; you have a very good reason to at that!!!:D:D

[Bartman]

His eyes were closed there because it was right when he shut them...ill get a pic right before the one i posted..i thoguht the eyes slightly closed made the picture look better...im gonna wait on the dirt until the summer...i dont want to disturb him because he ate a lot more tonight..things are starting to look better already as you said v.hb. Again, for the 1000 times :), thanks for all your help guys..ill keep you all posted on how he is in the next couple days

[Bartman]

the basking temp went up to 138..is that to hot??

[Jeff_Favelle]

The monitor will tell you if its too hot. If it doesn't bask or if it only basks for 30 seconds and then leaves, or if you only notice it basking at the bottom of the rack (AKA Retes Stack), then "maybe" its too hot.

But 138F is not too hot. Basking temps, within a certain range, are nothing to worry about. But if the monitor has no place of refuge (ie if your basking temps are climbing higher, what's the AMBIENT doing????), then it could easily be fatal.

[Bartman]

ok thank you..it was at a steady 138 but i think i know how to lower it a little because i did notice him basking for a very short period of time..i think im going to remove that rock where the light is shining...im hoping that the wood will not get as hot as the slate. Thanks

[Bartman]

and is 90 ok for ambient on the warm side?

[V.hb]

Originally posted by Bartman
and is 90 ok for ambient on the warm side?

Doesnt matter how hot the warm side is as long as he can escape it, and go somewhere around 80 degrees, or even a bit lower.. Like Jeff said he'l tell you if its too hot, if you see him in the cool end 24/7 chances are its too hot for him. Monitors bask alot. My blackthroats constantly bask, forage their enclosure go back to bask etc.. You'll see.. you're learning fast, don't worry!

[Bartman]

yea he is on the warm side and cool side back and forth..id say hes even more on the warm side. Im switching bulbs anyway causs this one is 100 watt..i think im better off with a 75..im gonna go exchange it tomorrow

[Bartman]

i just noticed he is in shed. Is there anything i should do to help him out? Maybe spray the tank or something. With the water fall i have in there im pretty sure its humid enough but i dun really know...i dont have a humidity checker, im gonna have to get one.
What should the humidity be at?

[Jeff_Favelle]

No, monitors don't shed like snakes do. They shed in pieces. This is also another plus for having dirt in there. They can dig themselves a nice 12-20 inch humid burrow and then come back up all refreshed. On an inch of cypress mulch, that option is....well.....not an option.

Don't worry about humidity. As long as its in a cage WITHOUT a screen top, the humidity is most likely fine.

[reptiguy123]

yup yup yup. Screens are a no-no. They can dehydrate your lizard's cage quickly, as well as take a chunk out of the heat. Dirt, soil, whatever, get more of it. Like Jeff said, those guys need to burrow!:D
Keep it up, man!

[Bartman]

ok some updates :)
He is beginning to look very good and he lost all the wrinkled skin that he had before (you said that showed he is either emaciated or dehydrated or sommin) and i added a basking platform kinda thing so he can "sprawl out" :)
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953Copy_of_basking_platform.JPG

[Bartman]

I also took out the water fall because the crix were hiding under and behind the tub and the sav seemed like he couldnt find them. Im gonna mist the tank instead until he gets to a good size i will put it back...right now i wanna work on seeing him eat.

[Bartman]

Here is a closer shot of him...does he look better after about 3 days of change :)

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953getting_better.JPG

[V.hb]

wow good for you man! looks much better, you'll see even more improvement soon enough!! good job thus far though!

[Bartman]

ok good thanks, im happy that hes starting to do better! :D

[V.hb]

dont hesitate to ask more q's either, the more you learn the more your animal benifits

[Bartman]

thank you so much!! you've all been a lot of help, and im glad that you dont mind all the questions...thanks, if i have any questions ill post them on this thread instead of making so many seperate ones...:D

[Bartman]

...

[varanus8787]

that mouse picture is disgusting, Bartman!!!
Keep up the good work!!!!!!!!:D

[crocdoc]

you'll know he's improving when the base of his tail fills out and his hip bones stop showing. Under the right conditions this will happen pretty quickly, so you'll know if everything is set up correctly, then.

[Gregg M]

Hey Asphyxia,
I like that little stack..... You build that yourself???? Pretty cool man.....