My snake just might have regurgitated!!!

[AlexPan]

Today morning i smelled something in my room like something died. Looked in all of the snake's habitats and found nothing. When i came back home about an houer ago, and came up into my room, it smelled like something died and was decomposing for a long while (i have never smelled anything that bad!).

Anyways i took another theral look into my snake's cages and found something that looked like poo. When i picked it up with a paper towel, i saw a non decomposed tail and legs, but everything als looked like wet poo!

He is California King Snake almost 4 years old, and have shed just 2 days ago. I gave him a dead frozen mice which i have socked in warm water till it became worm before feeding it. It was a fully grown mice but, in the past he have ate mutch bigger ones. On one side of his ocvarium he always have between 84-92 F and on another 68-72. He looks healthy but have being very agressive for the last 2 weeks ( i think due to be hangree). The last time he ate before this one was aproximatly 3 weeks ago.

Do you guys think he pooped or regurgetated? Also i have no vet any where in my area, is there a way i can check for parasites by my selph some how? I can make some pics of him if it will be needed. Thanks every one.

[sapphire_moon]

pics would probably be helpful, but it "sounds" like he just didn't digest it all the way. I'm sure someone else would be more helpful.

[asphyxia]

IMO it is regurged - check your temps and as it is a mouse and 4' long snake, i do not think it is the food size, Also serch this site for lots of additionl info

Good Luck
Brian

[Auskan]

You didn't mention how long after feeding, this "regurg" appeared? Also, I'm just kind of curious why it was 3 weeks between feedings - that seems like kind of a long time for a 4 year old King snake.

[Dark_Angel_25]

my boa just regurged yesterday. my problem was the size and possibly the temps. I am sure their is a vet in your area somewhere. as far as I know the only way to test yourself is if you have a good microscope. but if you can get a vet to do it they know what they are doing. I'm not sure, but maybe a regular vet can do the fecal exam for you.. as they aren't actually treating the snake. they also may know of a herp vet in the area. worth a shot...

[sapphire_moon]

if you can't find a herp vet try www.herpvetconnection.com

and you can find one nearest you hopefully.

[AlexPan]

Thanks every 1. here is a pic of him which i took just know. He regurgetated 2 days after eating. Hope this works

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=17650&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

[AlexPan]

Thanks sapphipe_moon. I checked that website and the nearest vet is 5 houer drive from here.

Auskan, The reason he did not eat for 3 weeks is because i usually feed him every 13 days but he was in his sheding proces so as you know they will not eat,.. the reason for that is if they eat the food size that is going to extend their body, it may interfire with sheding their skin and make some problems.

[marisa]

Well for one, get him off that crappy sand.

Sand is not good for any snakes. Not only is it uncomfortable, but it can cause impaction EASILY. Are you feeding him on this substrate? Get him off that sand like right now.

Don't feed him for ten days- two weeks. Then try a smaller than normal prey item.

Marisa

[AlexPan]

Marisa, I am well aware that MOST sand is bad for them but, on the other side of his habitat where i feed him on the SAND, its a special "sand" made stricly from bone and calsium so when he swolowes it, it only does good by giving him calsium.
I will not feed him for 2 weeks then try a small pinky.
Thanks every 1.

[Ontario_herper]

I wouldn't agree that sand in uncomfortable.... many snakes are found living on sand in the wild. Some people keep them on sand in captivity. I personally haven't and I personally wouldn't.

As Marisa said don't feed him for two weeks and then resume feeding as per usual. The snakes looks quite healthy. If it's that thick from eating only every three weeks then there's no need to feed more.

I wouldn't bother with the vet unless this becomes a problem again. I've had snakes regurge before. Maybe they experienced a temperature flux that they didn't like or maybe they just got stressed for some reason. As long as it doesn't happen again there's not likely a reason to worry.

[sapphire_moon]

Same thing here, I had a temp flux because it got warm outside so her temps spiked to like 95 degress (like 110 in my bp cage! :eek: )

Like Marisa said, I would get him off that sand. I can't be good for him. I've heard sand really scratches up the belly scales (even if you can't see it) Hence it being uncomfortable.

Does it have hides?
I would say a small fuzzy mouse, a pink is so tiny, not even a morsel to a snake that big, and if you do use a pink get the biggest one there.

I would say after you wait 14 days, to feed it a smaller item (as you said you were)

then wait until after atleast 4 successfull feedings before attempting any handling or deep cleaning the cage.
Only go into the cage once a week to check/change water, maybe do a QUICK spot clean. Keep it in an extreme low traffic area of the house.

Once you get her/him/it up and feeding regurlarily again, for a 4fter I (IMHO only!!!!!) would feed once a week.

You can also try rat pups which are about the same size as adult mice.....
I remember someone saying that their rat feeders where bigger/thicker than the mouse eaters.....so that may help to bulk him/her up a little IF you are worried about that.........

[AlexPan]

sapphire_moon, I have that special black sand for when it gets hot snake sometimes burrows in it or just sits under the light bulb, and seem to like it. Althought i belive that you know more so what will be the "other" substance which will absorb heet just as well and which he will like? And yes i do have a hide for him on both sides of his habitat (if you look clothly on the pic you can see a box under the sand which is 2 inches high).
Thanks for youre help every 1.

[marisa]

Just so you know, that calcium sand you are using, has actually been proven to IMPACT reptiles. It is NOT safe for the to ingest!

"I wouldn't agree that sand in uncomfortable.... many snakes are found living on sand in the wild"

There is a huge differance between sand in the wild and that terrible calcium sand. For one snakes in the wild have the opportunity to get away from the sand. Sand in even half the enclosure means the snake is on it for what, at LEAST 50% of the time? It gets in scales, in eyes and in the mouth. I am glad you don't use sand Ontario Herper! :) I would NEVER EVER use it. For two, the grain and dying of the sand is far far from natural for anything. I have just recently seen a photo of someones corn feces, guess which color? Calicum sand green. The snake passed away shortly after. The feces was literally FULL of it.

Sand IS NOT A GOOD SUBSTRATE for captive kingsnakes. I can't believe am I actually having to argue this point! It's caused problem after problem for owners of all species and is constantly advised against. If you continue housing him on sand and feeding him in the cage you are ASKING for impaction.

But whatever, your snake regurged, and you know it all. So go ahead and house him on whatever you think looks "pretty" but I am telling you now its NOT healthy and my advice is to help you, not attack you.

Marisa
P.S. AlexPan a substrate I suggest is either paper towel, or repti-bark which is a dark brown wood chip type substrate. The piece are larger and can't be ingested as easily. If you feed outside the enclosure the risk of impaction is near zero, but if you want to continue feeding IN the enclosure a simple paper plate with food item on it can help reduce the risk.

[Ontario_herper]

Forgot that I've been keeping my pair of sand boas on sand for the past three years. They seem to be doing fine and haven't complained about it being itching their scales.

IS their a magical substrate out their that I haven't heard about yet? I would guess that almost any substrate if ingested would cause the snakes problems.

[marisa]

And also FYI:

You said:
"so as you know they will not eat,.. the reason for that is if they eat the food size that is going to extend their body, it may interfire with sheding their skin and make some problems."

This is just simply not true. No offense but I have no clue where you heard that. Most kingsnakes, cornsnakes, milksnakes etc can eat just perfectly fine during a shed, some refuse as their eyesight is not tip top during this time but ALL my snakes eat during shed just fine. It has literally nothing to do with "eat the food size that is going to extend their body" That makes 100% no sense at all and has nothing to do with it.

I am just letting you know this for future referance. I suggest you invest into Kingsnake care books, or some websites and refresh your husbandry and kingsnake information. Here are some excellent websites to help you out:

http://www.angelfire.com/me4/pets/californiakingsnake.html
http://www.geocities.com/kingbones7/caresheet.html
http://www.probreeders.com/index.html

There are hundreds more and I am also currently writing one myself. A couple books I suggest are:

California Kingsnakes: Keeping & Breeding Them in Captivity by Ray Hunziker, Raymond E. Hunziker

Milksnakes and Tricolored Kingsnakes by Richard D. Bartlett

Good luck with your snake and al of my comments are directed at helping you learn how to keep them more successful and keep them healthy.

Marisa

[marisa]

Ontario Herper-

O.k. fine sand is great everyone use it. Is that what you want me to say? You are housing sand boas on sand, thats a lot different than kingsnakes. Correct me if I am wrong but don't sand boas borrow down into the sand to ambush prey? Kingsnakes do not do this, the risk of impaction from sand is INSANE high. Do you feed your snakes directly in the sand? I doubt it.

No of course there isn't a magical substrate and I have no idea why you jumped into this thread just to be sarcastic. This person is housing on sand, has had a regurg and you are trying to get me to agree that sand is fine. I am sorry but in almost all situations sand is not o.k. Not only when feeding on it can it cause impaction but as the king constantly goes aroudn the enclosure its tongue flicking....and picking up more and more sand. Over time this has proved to be a problem for them. I am not making this up out of nowhere.

Like I mentioned I suggest paper towel, newspaper or repti-bark, or aspen as alternatives. All these (aside from paper) also have the risk of impaction but ALL of these are far larger grain than sand. You should never feed on loose substrate though.

Marisa

[Ontario_herper]

I don't want you to say anything.....

But you jumped all over this guy for using sand as a substrate for his king. I personally wouldn't use sand with a king but that's just me. I have heard of people loosing animals from a wide variety substrates. Mulch probably being one of the most common. I've been keeping the majority of my animals on mulch for the past 8 years. Never had a problem yet!

There was a brief period where I kept my sandboas on paper (just to try it out). The first feeding I walked in on the boa eating paper after he had downed the mouse. I would think that paper would be easily digested but who knows? If a snake ate enough it might cause them problems.

As I said before. I don't think that anyone has dicovered the perfect substrate so I don't think it makes sense for you to jump all over this guy.

The main reason I jumped in on this post was because I was suprised to hear that you think sand make snakes uncomfortable. I wasn't sure where you came up with this idea?

BTW I never said that sand was great and everyone should use it! I'm just saying something different from you... that's okay isn't it?

[marisa]

I jumped all over him? LOL. Um o.k. I told him sand is bad the way I did so he would understand the serious risk involved.

"I wasn't sure where you came up with this idea?"

Is it not obvious that sand would get into the snakes mouth when it is tongue flicking? And what about sand covering the genitals of the male snake should they come out during defication which sometimes happens....you don't call that uncomfortable? Sand can also scratch the eyes of some snakes in certain situations, and frankly impaction must be the most uncomfortable thing I can imagine.

So yes, this guy needs to get this snake who is already having feeding issues, off sand.

Marisa
P.S. My first post about the sand until it was obvious he had no idea why not to use it:
"Well for one, get him off that crappy sand.
Sand is not good for any snakes. Not only is it uncomfortable, but it can cause impaction EASILY. Are you feeding him on this substrate? Get him off that sand like right now.
Don't feed him for ten days- two weeks. Then try a smaller than normal prey item."

I couldn't have been nicer if I was holding his hand while telling him this. Anyways good luck with your snake AlexPan.

[AlexPan]

Thanks every 1. I realize that there are some issues for having any kind of substance especially sand cause like marisa said it can scratch snake's eyes.

Over all i think i am using good sand which is round and relativly big, so that it will not scratch their eyes and i 100% desagree with the thing that sand will stick to snake's tong... firstable the sand is to heavy to get stuck on the tong and secondably if it even does gets stuck on to the tong it will 99.9% fall of cause they flick their tong quate fast (try getting youre hand a bet moist and stick 1-2 grains of sand on then shake youre hand really fast, the sand will 99.9% of the time fall off.

marisa. you said "This is just simply not true. No offense but I have no clue where you heard that. Most kingsnakes, cornsnakes, milksnakes etc can eat just perfectly fine during a shed, some refuse as their eyesight is not tip top during this time but ALL my snakes eat during shed just fine. It has literally nothing to do with "eat the food size that is going to extend their body" That makes 100% no sense at all and has nothing to do with it."
Well from my 4 years of observing i have never had a King snake eat while in the proces of shedding (could be just my weird snakes).

Also to conclude i would like to say that i will change that sand to a more bigger sand but i think its totally normal for a snake to be on the sand cause in the wild like some 1 alredy stated, snakes do infact live on the sand. Marisa, when you sand it gets in to snake's scales and mouth, so you meen to say is the snakes in the wiled which live only on sand do not have scales?

As for my snake i will make a 2nd floor for it with one of the sabstances which have being sugjested, and will let the snake decide where it like the best.

Also when feeding on the sand i was my mistake to give him a vet mice which i did the first time which cosed the sand to stick on it too mutch which then cosed it to srow up. Basycally i would say to people if any 1 decides to feed them on the sand just make sure that the mice is dry. As for my selph i will make another habitat for my kings where i will be feeding them just to see what they perfer.

Thanks every one for youre opinions.

[marisa]

"(could be just my weird snakes)."

It is. All of my kings have always eaten while in shed.

"wild like some 1 alredy stated, snakes do infact live on the sand. Marisa, when you sand it gets in to snake's scales and mouth, so you meen to say is the snakes in the wiled which live only on sand do not have scales? "

Yep you are right they live in sand in the wild. In the wild they also die from impaction and other various things. Why you would want to expose your captive snake to this is beyond me...but um o.k.

"will make a 2nd floor for it with one of the sabstances which have being sugjested, and will let the snake decide where it like the best."

Unless both levels are identical in temp, hides etc then this proves nothing.

I see you will do whatever you feel is best, but frankly you are making the wrong choice if you ask me. Besides sand is not even the best looking substrate aside from all the health issues, so I have no idea why you are insisting on using it.

Marisa

[Dark_Angel_25]

The only perfect substrate is ceramic tile. they can't esat it, its easy to clean and well yeah. AS for the sand. unless it is pebbles, I wouldn't use it. And even if a mouse is dry, do not feed it on sand, like Marisa said put it on a plate. If your snake eats in its hide, then I would put the carpet stuff under the hide and the food on a plate right by the door, so that when they eat the food does not come into contact with sand.

As for the tongue licking.. if oyu have calci sand, or beach sand or any sand, it is NOT to big to be swallowed.. and even if (although I doubt it) it does fall off 99.9% of the time, the snake is still ingesting 0.01% sand every time it flicks its tongue, and it builds up... they do NOT pass it through their systems.

Anyway you will do what you want, but I really hope just for curiosity, you look up more infor on the net, and see that sand is a bad idea.

I am not attacking you, I am just trying to look out for your baby.

[sapphire_moon]

ok.......everyone DEEP breath, count to ten, and calm down.

Sand is bad. It is ok for some snakes but not all of them.

"In the wild they live on sand" Yes this is very much true (althoug I do not know the natural history of king snaks so I can not say if they live on sand in the wild)

But they are not in the wild, They are in our care, in our home. Their lives are in our hands. We feed them, put substrate down for them, heat them, give them water, and place to hide in.

In the wild a snake has a shorter life span (I believe just MHO). Why? Because of all the things that happen to it. sickness, predators, impaction from all things, from wood splinters, sand, moss, (certainly not paper) whatever is around that goes in their mouth that isn't supposed to be there.

In our care we can take away those dangers, one of the dangers being impaction. Sand can cause impaction, so why are you even chancing that it won't eat the sand, or as marisa said, get sand on the genitals if they happen to prolapse?

I personally use aspen shavings for all my snakes, my little corn LOVES to burrow in it, and the aspen holds the shape of the tunnels really well.
Another thing to use is care fresh, a bit expensive, but well worth it, there is also an off brand of care fresh (less dusty in my opinon) called something like soft sorb(ent) or something to that effect.

Why don't you try one of those (or paper/paper towel) with a bowl of the sand left in there, and if he wants to get in the sand he can.

As for feeding on loose substrate either take the snake and feed it in a seperate enclosure, do what dark angel said, or do as I do, I put news paper down, put the snake on the news paper, and offer the food.

You said something about holding heat. How do you measure your temps? If it is with a digitial thermometer, great, put the probe on the bottom (on top of the uth) and then put in any of these substrates. And you will get the reading, near the top of the substrate it is cooler, and if the snake wants to get warmer he/she will just burrow deeper over the heating pad.

I hope this helped........

Marisa, do you know when you will be done with your book? I will probably be one of the first out to purchase it.

[marisa]

Haha I only wish it was a book! I meant to include that in the list of websites actually. It's a caresheet. ;)

Although publishing on demand is very affordable...hmmm.....:D

Marisa

[BoidKeeper]

I don't know anyone who is a seriouse sand boa breeder that uses sand. There may be someone but I've yet to hear of them.
Vet techs have posted on here about their experinces with herps dying from sand impactation, calci sand included.
Chances are if your treat the snake as if it was a regurg and wait the right amount of time before feeding it again and it regurges again then I would suspect an impaction,
Trevor

[gonesnakee]

I don't recomend sand either, but I too used it always when I had sand boas with no problems. I use mostly blue paper shop towels & some Aspen. I have had CKs eat the shoptowels before, beleive it or not & have seen ones try to eat newspaper as well, so no matter what the substrate, one should always watch during feeding time, especially with the CKs. Alex I too think it was a regurge, good luck with you snake. Mark

[nomes]

well alex unlike the other bitching pros i am am not an expert but this is my experiance , brought in a corn snake he ate well for a month then started puking and pooping 1/2 finished meals i gave him very small meals after pinkies to start then fuzzies, let him clear his syhem then start slowly, clean up right away, he was this way for 3 months, then the food stayed down, new enviroment changes in setup who knows, i only feed my snakes when they come looking for me, but i keep all my herps rite in my face, sometimes its a week sometimes its a month, but as i said i am no pro , i figure a couple of smaller are better digestist than one big un , and never feed live mice those mice are to damn confidendt really hurt my snakes ego. i,ll never put the male on adult mice cause i figure i have good situation with him and its just easier to handle what i know he can digest than bulk feed. i have no opinion on supstrate only use news paper all the other stuff was to hard to keep clean.

[ReptiZone]

well I would just like to add that you should realy get rid of the sand as fast as humanly posible scratch it off your list compleatly If you want a better substart that the snake can burow in then get your self some eco earth give 3 inches or so of it on the bolem of your tanke then place 1 inch of eco erth wood chips (it is choped up coconut shells that is the a sub strate to yous for King snakes.

The way I see it if it says sand in the name of the herp there is a good chance it will be more comfertable on sand.

Now as far as sand scratching the snakes Eye's there is a line I have never heard.

If you can at any time touch a snake direct eye I wil be amased.

Now this will sound realy crule and heart less and I am NOT telling you to go out and do it but if you put your finger directly on a snakes eye at any given time you are only touching a lense cause snakes have no eye lids so there is a lends there to protect the actual Eye it self, so when you are poking at worst you are leaving a finger print and any scratch left buy sand would be shead away and it is the same effect for geting sand in the eyes the lens is there for that exact reason to PROTECT. think of all the sharp rock's they encounter in the wild and thorn bushes and what not. Don't come hear and try to tell this kid that just Because he has a captive snake that there bodies stoped doing what they were desinged to do.

Now Marisa take 2 steps back and re-evaluate what you said about feeding a snake during shed time.
It is actualy verry dangerouse to feed snakes during shed time. Simply cause.... (and now I am gona uas a time line that you would probebly never encounter but lets do it for $#!tS and Gigles.)

your snake goes into shed and has blue eyes you could get away with feeding it. lets asume it is not in the blue it is 2 day s affter he his eyes cleared up. you and I both know that at this point it is just a mater of days. so he desids well marisa said it is not dangerous so i a gona feed you any way. So he feeds the snake now the next day the snake goes into shed mode.

Now did you know the the head pice is not as large as the midel half of the body where the food is resting nither is the neck part nither is the uper half of the body. And just for fun we will say that Alax did a excelent job on his humidity keeping and the snake has what looks to be a perfect shed. Now when it arirves to the midle all nicely rolled up and it is nice and tight and now the snake tryes to make it over the food lump keep's going once it is half way he cant rolle it back on and say I will waight till I digest it is hit or miss so half way into the food part it gets stuck becaus the skin won't budge and it being a perfect shed and all have you ever tryed this B4 you will know what I mean next time take you snake sheds all in one pice take that litle ring of skin and put a finger on each side and try to pull it apart I dont mean rip I mean make it snap like a ruber band would if you did that it. You will see you will have a hard time doing so if you can't do it easaly what makes you think the snake can do it.

so now half way into the shed the skin is stuck and as the shed dryes it starts to shrink and bam you ar now asphixiating your animal. But it never Hapend to Marisa so it must be safe well it hapend to me I cut the shed off and I saw this blue line all the way around the animals skin.

so I would rather make a 4 year old King Snake wait as long as it takes to shed then do that mistake again I dont care if it take 4 weeks, 2 monts a 4year old snake will not die if not fed for 3 weeks cause Alex wants to eir on the side of Caution cause he is not realy sure of the cosiquensis of his actions.

when it comes to somthing like that when you do nothing you are doing nothing wrong if the animal dies the next day then it was to far gone to save cause you know as well as I do when Reptiles show you they are sick it is cause they are way out there and you have just asmouch luck at wining the 64/9 loto. YES a experianced keeper has a sporting chance but we also see sighns way B4 most vet's do.

so anyway Alex Pan giv it the best care you fell is necesary and this may sound mean but if you loose your animal you will be that much wiser and you will listen to the ppl hear. I know you are thinking we are all picking on you but we realy do what you to learn and have fun so in time you can teach your kids and so on and hopefuly the myths about reptiles will die out like the hippy age did lol have fun reserching I know I alwase have a blast doing it.

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron

[sapphire_moon]

alex, when people at this site seem mean or rude it is usually because they have the intrest of the animal at heart, not the person. lol, but everyone is usually really good sports about everything.

ReptiZone:

I never knew that, and recently have stopped feeding all snakes during shed (last say 5 months or so).
But I do have to say that when I would feed my ball python a large rat that would leave a lump a little larger than a soda can, and he was in shed......he always shed fine.

I personally don't reccomend feeding during shed, simply because if they refuse the meal, your out a couple of bucks, and/ or a wasted rat/mouse.


Alex: For the burrowers (ok now I can't spell). Try aspen shavings. Like I said, the tunnels hold really good.
Also, you can just try a variety of things (no cedar or pine, no soft woods really, they have phenols which can make the snake sick) and see what works best for you.

[Ryan]

Just in case you do need the info in the future Alex..........Dr. Upjohn(Has reptile experience) at the Eagle Ridge animal hospital in Coquitlam is about 5-20 minutes from you depending on where in Burnaby you live. Also, there are vets in Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford with reptile experience and all within 1 hour drive from where you live.

I also say NO to sand as a substrate for most types of snakes including Cal Kings, not even close to being worth the risk.

[marisa]

"The way I see it if it says sand in the name of the herp there is a good chance it will be more comfertable on sand."

HAHAHA that's is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Because humans assigned a name to an animal, that animal must love the name and live according to it! uM yeah right....makes a big 0 sense. Maybe I should go out and get some corn for my cornsnakes to live in.

"bam you ar now asphixiating your animal. But it never Hapend to Marisa so it must be safe well it hapend to me I cut the shed off and I saw this blue line all the way around the animals skin. "

Oh that's exactly how I wrote my post wasn't it? It didn't happen to me so it can't happen! (Note, just in case you dont understand my big words, that was sarcasm)

I have never ever heard of a snake killiling itself because someone fed it during shed. EVER. In fact, many many people everyday feed in shed, and none mention this problem or have it. Maybe your snakes enviroment was insanely too dry. Wet snake skin is extremely "stretchy" and pliable, and if your snakes skin was so tight on its body it caused strangulation, your air and the skin was WAY too dry which caused the skin to become dry, brittle and tight.

"Now this will sound realy crule and heart less and I am NOT telling you to go out and do it but if you put your finger directly on a snakes eye at any given time you are only touching a lense cause snakes have no eye lids so there is a lends there to protect the actual Eye it self, so when you are poking at worst you are leaving a finger print and any scratch left buy sand would be shead away and it is the same effect for geting sand in the eyes the lens is there for that exact reason to PROTECT. think of all the sharp rock's they encounter in the wild and thorn bushes and what not. Don't come hear and try to tell this kid that just Because he has a captive snake that there bodies stoped doing what they were desinged to do."

Are you serious? You think its o.k. for sand or other debris to get into a snakes eye because they deal with it in nature? You have never ever heard of eyes of snakes being infected? Sorry but they have been. I am not saying his snakes eyes are in danger. I am giving him ALL the facts and risks of housing on sand. Again sorry you had difficulty understanding that. The POINT of captivity is to eliminate the risks of the wild to our best possible abilities. If you are not interested in that, that's nice for you, but I find it sad.

Good luck
Marisa

[Oliverian]

Now did you know the the head pice is not as large as the midel half of the body where the food is resting nither is the neck part nither is the uper half of the body. And just for fun we will say that Alax did a excelent job on his humidity keeping and the snake has what looks to be a perfect shed. Now when it arirves to the midle all nicely rolled up and it is nice and tight and now the snake tryes to make it over the food lump keep's going once it is half way he cant rolle it back on

Reptizone, just to let you know.... I have fed my snakes more or less on schedule for a while now, and if they eat while in shed, they are fine. You know how the 'neck' area immediately behind a snake's head is smaller than, say, its midsection? Well, according to your theory, this means that almost ALL snakes would have to have your help in cutting off their shed skins, because, in theory, they woudn't be able to get the 'skinny neck part' of their shed over their midsection, with or without food inside. Snake skin DOES stretch to a point while shedding, partially due to the liquid they produce to seperate the old skin from the new. (hence, the 'blue' appearance.)

Alex, if you want to keep housing your snake on sand, I guess we can't stop you, but I seriously reccomend listening to these people. They have been doing this a long time, and know what they are talking about. Just think about it. That's all I ask.

Would you feed your snake live prey? I'm guessing not, because there's obviously a huge risk of injury or death to the snake!


...So, why would you keep your snake on sand, when its the same issue? A huge risk of injury or death to the snake. So why do it?

Can you list all the good things about housing a snake on sand, and then all the bad things? You'll quickly see there's no rational reason to be housing on sand.

Good luck with the snake, I wouldn't handle him for a while yet if I were you. Hope he does better for you soon!

-TammyR

[AlexPan]

Thanks every one for youre very helpfull sugjestions. I will try out some of sugjested substrates especially aspen shavings. I'l make 50% sand and 50% aspen shavings and see what they will perfer.

However i think that RepiZone's theory on shedding makes a lot of sence. Basically its always good to be on the safe side.

[AlexPan]

Ps, i'l update every one in a cople of weeks on that the snakes will choose for their substrate.

[Linds]

Originally posted by AlexPan
Over all i think i am using good sand

Good sand? Far from it. Calci-sand is terrible any way you want to look at it, and is not suitbale for any animal IMHO. Yes, it is made from calcium, but have you looked at what form it is in? Calcium carbonate, same thing Tums are made out of. It's an antacid, therefore it neutralizes all the digestive juices which inhibits digestion and absorption of essential nutrients. It completely interferes with the way the system works.

[NewLineReptile]

Well Said Linds.

And Marisa I dont keep corn snakes but i have herd of people useing corn as some kind of bedding...lol wow i dont know you just made me think about that...lol

Alexpan....I to think the sand is a big NO NO! do the best for your snake and get rid of the sand.

Brandon

[BoaBoi]

You said you were gonna see which substrate he likes best, in that case see if he prefers live to dead feeding... It's the same damn thing, no one in their right mind would feed live unless they have to. Just because the snake seems to like(sand maybe) better than another substrate doesn't mean it's good for him. He is NOT a wild animal, you are his caregiver. Did your mother let you eat candy for supper every night because YOU PREFERED IT?

James~

[sapphire_moon]

and that also being said. how are you going to be able to tell? Say you put the sand on the warm side and aspen on the cool side.
And he likes to be on the warm side so he stays over there? It is just SAFER to go with a different substrate...

[AlexPan]

BoaBoi, i NEVER feed my snakes alive pray. I always prekill before feeding.

sapphire_moon, i will poot 50/50% of 2 different substates on each warm and cold side of their habitat.

[sapphire_moon]

still don't make sense. You are putting your snake in needless danger.

[marisa]

sapphire_moon you are just repeating what we have all already said. People are like that. Until something happens, they sometimes cannot even fathom the risk involved. He seems to want to do what he wants, so good luck to him. I wouldn't waste anymore "breath" on it though if I was you. :D

Marisa

[AlexPan]

Every one i knoe you are trying to help but it seems to me that most of you are being miss lead by the fact of sand.
I just wrote to Julian White, at the

Assoc. Prof. Julian White MB, BS, MD, FACTM
Consultant Clinical Toxinologist
Head of Toxinology, Women’s & Children’s Hospital
North Adelaide SA 5006 AUSTRALIA
Email: toxinaus@wch.sa.gov.au; julian.white@adelaide.edu.au
Websites: www.toxinology.com, www.toxinology.net

he is a good friend of main and i'l post exactly what he will say about all of the facts of sand. He being in this buisness for longer then any one here. If he will say what you said i will change the sabstate but, if not then i will not since i see no reason for what and what ever some of you said makes no sence at all like "the sand will collect in the snake's body till it dies".

[marisa]

If you have never heard of sand impaction then I suggest you do more reading. Its been so common I don't even see how you haven't heard of it.

I'd also include the fact your snake has recently regurgatated in the email as well as the fact you feed in enclosure.

Marisa

[AlexPan]

marisa, i did include that my snake have regurgitated, and ones i'l get his answer, i'l post my mail to him and his answer.

[BoidKeeper]

Alex,

You started this thread because you wanted to know why your snake may or may not have regurged. The majority of the people who replied believe that the sand is bad and responsible for causing an impactation in your snake.
You asked for opinions and then when you get them you argue tooth and nail to try and prove that your methods are fine. If what you are doing is fine, why aren't more people replying saying things like, "I've kept Kings on sand for years with no problems." ? People aren't because what you're doing is not safe and may very well have caused the regurge.
Why do you come here and ask for help if you don't think the people offering the help are qualified to do so?
This reminds me of when you wanted to learn how to milk snakes.
Trevor

[sapphire_moon]

It's almost like a cat getting a hairball stuck in it's stomache. except it's a snake, it's sand thats caught and it can't puke it up.

[Vanan]

Kay, didn't wanna get involved but just wanted to say that everyone's got their own way of doing things. If it works, go ahead. That being said, I wouldn't go with the sand jus cos it's too fine for my liking. I have found it stuck in snakes' nostrils and cloacas eventually causing irritation to the mucous membrane. If you really like the feel of sand, go with crushed walnut! Great stuff for sand loving snakes. Bigger in size and less likely to get plugged in your snake's nostril. BUT, crushed walnut, being abrasive can create a lot of "walnut dust". I've seen snakes sneeze too much for me to be comfortable using it. And I know an RI from a regular "Atchoo!" :D IMO, the best bet would be Aspen (as someone mentioned). Not as much dust (still a lil dusty) and create tunnels which snakes love to go in and out of! Just like in the wild.

BTW, Ryan I would have to disagree with Dr. Upjohn being a good snake vet. He may be great with lizards but any vet who tells you that your snake needs UV lighting else it'll die is friggin moron! Sorry, but we've lost a very precious snake due to his incompetence and stupidity. If anyone want more info, feel free to PM or e-mail me. There is a great vet (from what I've heard) in Surrey. Her name's not coming to me now but WSPCR members have her info. Just email one of them.

[Vanan]

Kay, didn't wanna get involved but just wanted to say that everyone's got their own way of doing things. If it works, go ahead. That being said, I wouldn't go with the sand jus cos it's too fine for my liking. I have found it stuck in snakes' nostrils and cloacas eventually causing irritation to the mucous membrane. If you really like the feel of sand, go with crushed walnut! Great stuff for sand loving snakes. Bigger in size and less likely to get plugged in your snake's nostril. BUT, crushed walnut, being abrasive can create a lot of "walnut dust". I've seen snakes sneeze too much for me to be comfortable using it. And I know an RI from a regular "Atchoo!" :D IMO, the best bet would be Aspen (as someone mentioned). Not as much dust (still a lil dusty) and create tunnels which snakes love to go in and out of! Just like in the wild.

BTW, Ryan I would have to disagree with Dr. Upjohn being a good snake vet. He may be great with lizards but any vet who tells you that your snake needs UV lighting else it'll die is a friggin moron! Sorry, but we've lost a very precious snake due to his incompetence and stupidity. If anyone wants more info, feel free to PM or e-mail me. There is a great vet (from what I've heard) in Surrey. Her name's not coming to me now but WSPCR members have her info. Just email one of them.

[Jungle Jen]

I think the veterinarian Vanan is referring to is Dr. Sharon Prus 604-597-7387 in Surrey.

[AlexPan]

Travor, let me start with that argue because i want people to give me some real proof. i infact hate arguing but i think i have full wright to say my opinion. Every one here have being great at giving sugjestions to me, and many have given me very good info. The only thing i'm trying to do here is to proof that sand is not hasardous, and weather or not i'm wrong, i do not knoe thats why i wrote to Julian White for his opinion. If i would not be here asking people for help i most sertanly would neot be where i am today sanks to every one.

Also it is nothing like when i wanted to learn how to milk snakes, and let me tell you at that time althought many people were reacting like small children, a few did wright to me back and tald me all of that info, whom i sank to god for that.

[AlexPan]

Nice thanks Vanan and Jungle Jen! that really helps :)

[BoidKeeper]

The only thing i'm trying to do here is to proof that sand is not hasardous,
The proof that it's bad is dead herps. People aren't going to go and dig them up and post pics for you. Herps have died from being on sand. It's been documented time and time again. You want proof, go look for it. We don't have to prove anything to you. We had a member here that was a vet tech and she posted time and time again that she has seen herps come into her clinic that were pluged with calci sand and other sands.
If some one tells me that sand is bad and I know they aren't newbies then that is proof enough for me. I'd rather learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them. People die during war, do you belive me or do I have to start a war to prove it to you? It's in a book some where, look it up.
Ask the biggest and best breeders in north america who produce hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of animals every year if they keep kings on sand. Then ask them why?
You want proff sand is bad, go look at your king.
Trevor

[Vanan]

Thanks Jen! Stupid brain farts!

[AlexPan]

BoidKeeper, i did not meen it litteraly that i need proof. What i meant was for snad getting stick in the snake its pretty hard to imagine...

Say the sand is some where stuck, knoe the snake eats. The foor paces thrue the stamch and since the fur does not gets digested, all the way it scrubs and cleens the snake's stomach, one the snake poops, the fur will grag out the snad with it.

Like i said i will change the substate for my snakes to aspen shaving but, just for prinsibles i wanted to see how can the sand get stuck in the stomach.

[marisa]

So using your logic, snakes can eat as much debris as they want and not get impacted....or even eat small amounts of debris and be fine.

Then please tell us why snakes get impaction using your logic that things don't get stuck in them.

Marisa

[AlexPan]

Marisa, Its only my theory but, i think if the snake eats a furry anymal its fur would clean its stamach since its fur does not get digested. Others might have not given them furry anymals to eat especially to smaller snakes which cannot eat large enaph pray which have fur yet.

[marisa]

That is seriously a bad theory. No offense.

I'd venture to say we can all agree that 95% of the people who keep snakes feed them rats or mice. Now I can assure you if you asked, you would find some of those very same owners experiencing impaction resulting from some sort of substrate in a snakes mouth.

So you saying only snakes that aren't fed rats and mice or rabbits are getting impaction. What exactly are these other prey items that someone would actually feed a snake? hmmm? Sorry but you are not correct. Plenty of impactions have occoured on mouse fed animals. That is a fact.

Wanted to add: I am not saying fur isn't used that way. In fact I am sure it is much like birds use pebbles. What I am not agreeing with is the fact that you think only snakes that arent eating mice or rats with fur get impaction. that is the inncorrect part.

Marisa

[ohh_kristina]

AlexPan, no offence, but why did you even ask for help if you're going to act like this? You have people with a lot of experience telling you something and you're doing everything in your power to try and prove them wrong with "theories" that hold no water. What's the deal? Learn how to take advice..especially when you ask for it. Your animals will thank you for it.

[AlexPan]

ohh_kristina, i do take advices! All i was talking about is the snad getting in the snake's body. I never said i'm gona keep on keeping my snakes on the sand! Infact i said i will change it to aspen shavings.

[Will]

I'l make 50% sand and 50% aspen shavings and see what they will perfer.

Just a side note. Your snake will be choosing one over the other based on temperature, or availbality of hides, etc - not which one is more 'comfortable'.

In addition, I don't think anyone here has mentionedyet, is that the little grains of sand create more surface area than most other substrates. More surface area could lead to more areas for bacteria to grow. Bacteria is bad.

I use aspen, and it's simple to just grab a bag and scoop everything out and fill it up in a couple minutes. Cleaning out sand is a little more labor intensive, and I hate using more effort than is needed.

I'm throwing my hat in the ring with the "Get-rid-of-the-sand" votes.

[Vanan]

AlexPan, no offence, but why did you even ask for help if you're going to act like this? You have people with a lot of experience telling you something and you're doing everything in your power to try and prove them wrong with "theories" that hold no water. What's the deal? Learn how to take advice..especially when you ask for it. Your animals will thank you for it.

I don't think it's about not taking advice but more of finding out why he should take someone's advice over something which makes sense to him. Man! I knew I should never have posted in this thread!! lol!

[marisa]

I agree with that Vanan. Questioning is good. Especially when its based on intelligent questions. But Alex's past posts, and current posts lead me to believe he has been reading a book of snake husbandry none of us have ever heard of.

But that's why I keep replying with explanation. Hopefully it will be taken as advice to help his snake, and its *not* meant to knock him down personally.

Marisa

[ohh_kristina]

I totally agree about that. Asking questions is always important. However, there comes a time when you have to learn to take advice from people that have been there and done that, you know? But I guess some people just have to figure things out for themselves. The only bad thing about that is sometimes that means that animals suffer for it.

[AlexPan]

Will, my first recomendation for you is read a few of my threads back to answer the quote "I'l make 50% sand and 50% aspen shavings and see what they will perfer." my 2nd recomendation is if you still cannot find the answer, see my first recomendation.

[AlexPan]

Well said Vanan!

Marisa, i knoe you meen the best for my anymals and sank you for youre opinions but, all i was trying to see is, if some one could really give me a good enaph explanation on how can the sand get stuck in the snake's stamach.

Also i would like to say that every one have made a great impact on me (to the good side), and i'm not gona argue any more, and ones i'l get an email back from my good friend, i'l post it on here.

[joshm]

Alex, fix the temperature there way to hot and to cold and I would bet the farm that thats why he regurged. You should keep it around 84 on the hot side and 78 on the cold side, not the temps in which you keep it at. I must say why ask for the advice if you have to put up a fight over it, this thread got so long with all the people telling you the same thing and you took that long to relize that sand is no good. have fun

[Cruciform]

Hiya Alex,

I know it sounds strange that sand could get caught up inside them but the digestive system of a snake is quite basic compared to ours.

If you look at horses, they are unable to regurgitate, and when fed moldy hay or water at the wrong temperature after a hard run they can suffer serious gastrointestinal distress (colic). If they roll around, they can herniate the bowel and die.

So far you haven't had any serious problems with your snake until now. The majority of advice offered has been to avoid sand just to be on the safe side. Instead of comparing the comfort of sand versus a new substrate, maybe try comparing two non-sand substrates for your snake. He still gets a choice and you don't have to worry about sand impaction.

While people are talking about substrate, I've got a couple of question :)

Can the ink on newspapers do any damage? Should you try to get paper with canola based inks?

And with heating from below, has anyone run into trouble with that? When I took in the garter snakes I found out that they have a natural tendency to burrow to escape heat. So if the heat is below they will tunnel down to the bottom and cook themselves. Do any other species do that?

[Siretsap]

You know snakes did not evolve to become so fragile with their eyes...
They shed because they grow and to renew their skin and eyecaps...
I too had some problem with some leopard geckos who got sand impaction. But not all my leopard geckos had this problem.

All I have to say to Alex is to watch the snake and if he does see some impaction, remove it from the sand.

I doubt the sand scratches his eyes that much and all, he sheds every once in a while so even if he does get a scratch, his eyecap will be renewed after the shed.

As for the tongue flicking, I don't know if you ever touched that tongue, but it's quite dry and no snad gets stuck on it when he flicks it. If it were the case, all the desert snakes would be dead of impaction cause, let's face it, they flick theyr tongue more than 20 to 30 times a minutes...

And Marisa, his fur theory isn't all that out of the blue, the fur will clean some parts of the system. And some reptiles will actually eat the sand by themselves to help grind the food in their stomach or because they lack in certain nutriments...

Anyhow, I just found that you were being quite rude to him (talking about Marisa). I am sure you had some theories at one point that turned out not to be true, we all have...

[marisa]

Rude to him? How so? What am I supposed to do? No offense to you at all Sirestap, but this person is not a "newbie" and has had AMPLE time on the internet to investigate any theorys about sand prior to housing an animal on it. I am not in the habit of worrying about humans feelings over the internet, but the conditions animals are kept in. Hence the reason I will not sugar coat. I also offered alternatives, detailed reasons why the risks exsist, and I wished him good luck and SPECIFICALLY told him it was not a personal attack but for the good of his snake, which thankfully, he responded that he understood. How much nicer does one have to be?

"And Marisa, his fur theory isn't all that out of the blue, the fur will clean some parts of the system. And some reptiles will actually eat the sand by themselves to help grind the food in their stomach or because they lack in certain nutriments..."

Um yes that's exactly why I clearly told him earlier in the thread... I agreed with that part, but I did not agree with him saying only non fur eating animals get impaction. Thought I was crystal there, apparently not.

As for the eyes, fine lets say the risk is ZERO. That still leaves the fact that its been proven reptiles living on sand can have major buildups over months, or years which can lead to impaction.

"If it were the case, all the desert snakes would be dead of impaction cause, let's face it, they flick theyr tongue more than 20 to 30 times a minutes..."

No not all of them but how many live 10 years out of each clutch in the wild? Tons die from things like impaction, poisioning, predators, parasites, injury, etc. Sorry I don't find that sort of outcome a "success" in captive animals. Which is why all risk factors that I can remove, are removed. It's that simple for me. One thing has a risk, another does not....gee what should I choose.....let me ponder....oh wait...the one with no risk....again that's what I do, and that's where the advice I give is based.

"I am sure you had some theories at one point that turned out not to be true, we all have"

Of course! For sure! But once I see facts pointing out where I was wrong, I don't just risk an animal to try and see if i am really wrong or not. If its obvious there is a risk to the animal when putting my theory in practice, that sort of defeats my entire theory of keeping a captive animal healthy in the best conditions possible, unless I just don't mind "hoping" something doesn't happen or go wrong.

"All I have to say to Alex is to watch the snake and if he does see some impaction, remove it from the sand."

Watch for what? Regurg? Its already happened. Sure it could have been anything but what else should people be watching for? In my collection if I had questionable husbandry methods in practice, a regurg out of the blue would certainly make me change my ways in hopes that is the root of the problem. Its a definite start IMHO.

Anyways I apologize that you feel I was rude, but I definitly stand by my opinion that sand is just a risk waiting to become a reality, and my posts.

Marisa
P.S. sorry about cutting up your post in the wrong order, I read how i read and comment when and where i think of something lol.