Thoughts on Jungle Corns

[marisa]

O.k. first let me state my personal position in all honesty on colubrid hybrids: I have none. I don't feel strong either way yet. I thought I would by now. A couple years ago when I first got my kings and corns I figured more time in the hobby and I would just feel one way or another. But that didn't happen even after constant reading on the net, forum reading, etc. I have yet to find that one statement, fact or position that really stands out enough to "swing" me either way.

I strongly believe Kingsnakes/cornsnakes and their localities should be captive bred and kept to the "standard' for their locality. But at the same time, I feel there is a strong, seperate market/enthusiasium for both strict locality kings/corns AND hybrids. So both areas can maintain their respective interests, while keeping what they feel is important around (i.e. localities or hybrid lovers, more hybrids) and not creating just one huge messy blood lines, no locality etc markets. It hasn't happened yet and locality animals are fairly easy to find still especially in the states, as well as hybrids and the lines aren't really that blurred yet from what I can tell.

How do you or did you personally decide if you want to produce hybrids, or even enjoy them as something else? (this is not a thread about why hybrids are wrong or not really, more of a personal thought, experience, point type thread please as I have read it all and so have you most likely)

I am looking forward to your thoughts and opinions on what made your mind up.

Marisa

[Simon Sansom]

Hi Marisa,

I'm not a big hybrid fan for he following reason; I have not seen a single one that's really an improvement over either of it's parent types/species, in my humble estimation...

Just my two cent's-worth.

Cheers!

Simon

[Linds]

Originally posted by marisa
as well as hybrids and the lines aren't really that blurred yet from what I can tell.


Exactly. The problem with hybrids is that you cannot tell. Once two animals are hybridized in captivity, the babies go out and may be bred with a pure animal, and babies may be sold as pure, or their grandkids might be sold as pure or whatever, if they only end up with 10% or less foreign blood, you won't be able to tell the difference (in some species, you may not be able to tell even if it has much more blood, sometimes even half), and you will be thinking you have a purchased a pure animal to add to your "pure" breeding program, then by no fault of your own, would be passing off impure offspring as pure.

[SerpentLust]

I like Linds' statement. It's always been my thoughts, and only my thoughts that I personally do not find it very appealling to mix and hybridize. However on the other scale, I don't mind them, I don't loathe breeders that hybridize and do it honestly. Telling people that what they're selling is a hybrid and then explaining it. Anyone can say "This is a Jungle Corn" and a novice that's just been looking through cornsnake types may purchase it thinking it's a corn snake.

So my opinion is that as long as there's honesty, I don't have a problem with it. But I personally wouldn't hybridize as I don't find any reason to.

Jenn

[vanderkm]

Sorry this will be long - but interesting topic to me ---

I got a young adult jungle corn because the opportunity came up and I wanted one to use as an example of hybridization for public education (the shows the local herp club puts on). I decided I was not interested in breeding them, so sold him, but ended up with two of his offspring back in return for a breeding. I may change my mind about breeding them because I do think they are, in a somewhat artificial way, more attractive than either parent species - the yellow bands from the cal king add an abnormally strong contrast to both the albino and normal version of the snakes - and that bright, intense look appeals to me and to others who have seen them.

I believe strongly that anyone who breeds hybrids or intergrades or morphs should identify what they produce to their buyers. This is an issue for me because my cornsnake focus is on creamsicles which are a hybrid or intergrade depending on the classification of the month. There is no color in pure corns that compares to a good creamsicle for me, so if I am going to breed, I am going to work with what I like. I breed animals in order to share what I appreciate with others and to enhance the offspring, through selection, to be even more pleasing over time. In order to produce the creamsicle patterns I want, I will produce a lot of offspring that are intergrades. I am committed to identifying them as such when I sell them and have decided I will not be accountable for what everyone I sell a snake to does with its progeny down the line. I have investigated means of permanent identification (tattoo, microchip, scale clipping) but none seem satisfactory.

I believe that it is acceptable for me to take this position and to breed and sell creamsicle intergrades. I would hold the same position if I was to breed jungle corns, which I may decide to do.

I think the only enforcement that will work to ensure that herp breeders are honest in identifying their stock is the market demand. The hobby cannot dictate that it must happen because there will always be careless, unscrupulous or dishonest breeders who will pass 'contaminated' offspring off as pure. The purity of stock is not any different than the accuracy of feeding, shedding or breeding records or the care and health maintenance that a breeder provides. It is all about a 'quality product'.

The buyer will dictate where they are willing to spend their money - if pure is important to them, they should only spend their $$ with a breeder they trust to honestly represent the stock. I have no concern for the ignorant buyer that gets fooled into buying something 'contaminated' because I think the responsibility is on the buyer to ensure that they get what they pay for. There are boards of inquiry, experience, reputation and personal judgement that all play a role in developing that trust. It is a lot like buying an animal that is supposed to be het for a trait - if I were breeding a specific morph or variety of corn, I would not buy a pure corn of that variety from someone that I would not trust enough to buy a het from. And I am prepared to pay a premium for that trust - it is worth a lot to me. It is often the people who are looking for a bargin that get fooled into thinking they get something for less than it is worth. Like they say - Quality costs but poor quality costs more in the long run.

I believe I am involved in (the early stages of) breeding quality creamsicles, honestly represented as intergrades. I do it because, despite the fact that they are not pure - I like how they look and I like being part of a hobby where I can breed what I like to own and I believe other people will want to own. For me, having my Honduran milksnakes that are pure and of known genetics is just as, but not more, important.

just my opinion

mary v.

[Ontario_herper]

Simply put hybrids are bad. Can anyone give me an exapmle of how producing hybrids benefits snakes in any way shape or form (no pun intended)?

[Andy_G]

Originally posted by Ontario_herper
Simply put hybrids are bad. Can anyone give me an exapmle of how producing hybrids benefits snakes in any way shape or form (no pun intended)?

Can you give me an example of how producing hybrids harms snakes? :)

Why does this hybrid thing come up all of the time? It almost seems paradox-like. Some people are for it, some are against it and some don't care either way. I don't think people will come to a 100% agreement either way. If you like them, go for it even if someone thinks you are "playing god" because we humans have been doing that for a long time, we didn't just start so it isn't really a good point to make in a debate. If you don't like them then don't buy them, don't try to force others to sway the same way as you.

[Linds]

Originally posted by Andy_G
Can you give me an example of how producing hybrids harms snakes? :)


I challenge you to find a 100% pure Indian python... there are quite a few different species/subspecies in captivity that, unless you pluck them out of the wild, are not pure, yet are still passed off as such :mad:

Honestly, I wouldn't have any problem with hybrids if they were all sterile, like mules. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I also have no problems with people that may produce hybrids IF they hold on the the entire litter themselves, making sure that those snakes do not get out in to the population, where they c an potentially contaminate the genepool.

[marisa]

All your responses have been a big help guys. I have found one sentence in this thread so far that has stood out by Mary/vanderkm:

"so if I am going to breed, I am going to work with what I like. I breed animals in order to share what I appreciate with others and to enhance the offspring, through selection, to be even more pleasing over time"

For me, kingsnakes are the top colubrid. I love them. I love the natural almost optical illusion a desert phase kingsnake has in the wild. When I think about breeding a king to a corn, the strong bands the babies might have stands out in my mind, probably because I love them so much. So I constantly seem to be veering towards the natural beauty of kings. Maybe that tells me where my feelings lay....with natural/localities/pure morphs. Still I am not sure on the issue, but the sentence really made me think about what I like and that's kings. Pure kings. I haven't seen a hybrid king I think looks better than what nature created so maybe for now that's what I will be sticking with. :D

Thanks for all the great thoughts so far. I am looking forward to more people sharing what made them feel one way or another.

Marisa

[gonesnakee]

Mary V. responded with words, I'll respond with pics. Love them or hate them because I could really give a rats @ss what people think. I know what I like, to each their own. These are all F2 Jungles (parents were Jungles produced from CK to Corn breedings). Show me a Corn or a CK that even compares to these ones. IMHO Mark
P.S. For all you "purists" lets just all agree to disagree LOL!

<img src="http://members.shaw.ca/gonesnakee/AJC CD 1.JPG"width="600">

<img src="http://members.shaw.ca/gonesnakee/JC-M-2ND-1.JPG"width="600">

<img src="http://members.shaw.ca/gonesnakee/PRECIOUS 1.JPG"width="600">

>( >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >(

[marisa]

Those are indeed beautiful snakes!

One thing that is nice too see, if you like hybrids or not, is the snakes in the photo would never ever be confused as pure by people who know their colubrids. It's reassuring I think even if you like hybrids.

Marisa

[Katt]

Hybrids aren't the problem. It's the people.

[gonesnakee]

Just so it is known I agree with some of the things Linds has to say. REMEMBER we are in the General Colubrid Forum talking about Jungle Corns, if we were in the General Python forum my thoughts would definitely be different. Oh BTW did I mention I'm going to breed my Womas to Blackheads next season or my Diamond to a BP. No seriously......... Yeeeaaah Right! LOL! Corns & Cal-Kings (& maybe other select kings, I haven't decided yet on this) is one thing, but Boids is a different topic for this boy anyhow. As far as any Hybrids go we are presenting opinions based mostly on morals. Its like discussing politics or religon blah blah blah we can go on forever, but I did hear somewhere that Catholic School Girls Rule though heh heh. : ) Mark
Edit: Katt's got my vote, people suck LOL

[gonesnakee]

Something that I should also mention, but almost hate to DOH! Its been my limited experience with baby Jungle Corn/Kings (the way they should probably be labelled to avoid Newbie confusion) some of the Albinos don't do too well in the beginning. Don't get me wrong some feed like CKs (very aggressively) but I've had little Albino ones that never were quite right feeding & had them just up & die. The Albino gene of course is considered "weak" & I think it proves true especially with the genetic mixing of species involved as well. Heck the one pictured eating is still being assist fed. Mind you I had sold it fresh outta the egg unestablished to a fellow herper. Maybe if I had it all along it would have been better? I did get it back because of his lack of time BTW : )
Anyhow my question is do we bash (LOL) the people breeding Albinos & making hets? Something else we could debate forever or lets talk about line or inbreeding. Heh Heh Mark I.
Edit: I forgot to mention that I have produced Albino JC/K that are exactly like CKs in both looks & temperment, so yes I do agree some can be easily mistaken. Like everyone says though you must trust who you deal with. :p

[Ontario_herper]

As Linds said.... if people kept these mutations/ hybrids and didn't breed them I wouldn't have a problem with it. If you get a kick out of having a triple-het-ghost-orange-threeleg-jungle corn than so be it! But don't screw it up for those of us that want a pure snake.

As with Linds example of the Indian python try finding a pure diamondpython 10 years from now. They'll all be 90% diamond cross something. Why? Because people are too cheap to buy a pair of real diamonds. To me this is not an ethical way of doing things.

I agree that people should keep what they want to keep. But when someone breeds hybrids or morphs it can ruin it for those that want to keep pure natural looking snakes.

Again, I just don't see a need for it and don't see how it benefits anyone other than the guy making money from them.

[Ontario_herper]

Gonesnakee- In Linds example I don't see how it matters whether it's a python or a corn? Is her reasoning and point behind the example still not valid?

[gonesnakee]

Whatever LOL! Not only are you bashing Hybrids but morphs now as well. We'd all just love a perfect world where everything went exactly the way we want it, but get a grip man! I say give the people what they want. So you think its OK to make money off snakes only as long as they are a pure naturally appearing morph & thats it? I won't even touch that one other than to say reread above posts LOL. I'll say it AGAIN we are not talking about Pythons here we are talking about Corns & Kings so provide some relevant examples or choose another forum LOL. Furthermore if you choose to deal with people who misrepresent their animals that is your choice. Them ones are probably the cheaper ones eh LOL! Breeding stock should be bought directly from decent breeders, NUFF SAID! Mark
P.S. Lets try to be open minded here eh!
Edit for O.H. like I tried to state before this is a no win either way subject & I'm not into going round in circles that have already been in many other threads before. I'm just trying to present some facts relevant to the orginal topic of Jungle Corn/Kings & this is the Colubrid forum. As you can see I posted valid points for both sides myself even though I have my own opinions. The Diamond example don't cut it. I'm not talking about rare species (both in the wild & in captivity ie: Diamomd) I'm talking the most common ones in the whole herping world (Corns & Kings) This just happens to be a subject where we all get pushing one anothers buttons & I'd just as soon discuss religon or politics NOT! Cheers man & stick to your guns, we all have to LOL Mark >(

[Ontario_herper]

Indeed, I am bashing both hybrids and morphs!

Give who what they want? What do you mean by this comment?

I'm not big into making money from snakes. I won't say that it's wrong but I'd much rather trade and leave money out of it. But that's just a personal thing.

Okay we'll leave the pythons out of it! So you decide to breed a number of those Jungle corns. Life is good and you're producing dozens of these snakes.

Now you have too many and you decide to sell a group of them. Joe blow from the other side of town buys them and decides two years later that he doesn't like them anymore.

Now by this point the market is completely flooded. These snakes are now no longer "cool" and they're not worth a cent. So this guy decides to release his snakes because he's a total idiot. Now you have hybrid snakes running around breeding with wild normal snakes.

Besides all that......... you may buy your hybrids from a reputable breeder and you may be reputable yourself. But what about another guy who buys them and turns around and sells them as something else. In case you didn't know not everyone is ethical. Just because you are doesn't mean bad things can't happen.

Who's not being open minded? Just because I don't agree with something that I believe to be wrong doesn't make me not open minded.

[marisa]

Again the point of this thread was to share your personal reasons for disliking or liking hybrids and what made you decide to breed them or not breed them, not argue someone else's point of view. One thing I think we can all agree on, its ALL been said and read before by probably all of us. If all I wanted was pro views on one side or the other, I would have just stated that. I wanted to see people who are both for and against hybrids sharing personal reasons why.

Marisa

[gonesnakee]

Hi David (you too Marisa lol) I agree with everything you just said other than it is "wrong" (I still "agree" to disagree lol). Though the likelyhood of your example is almost non-existent. Better chance of falling off the edge of the world IMHO. Lets say that it did happen. Whats the chance of those hybrids surviving in the wild, very slim (up here none, lol). So slim infact that they would not affect the genepool at all. Remember that they all came from the wild to begin with (morphs) & you don't see them running rampant out there now do you? Anyhow, basic point being yes people are idiots (I wish I choose Katt's route of reply, much easier lol). I can't be held responsible for every idiot in the world & I don't expect anyone else to be either. No matter what we choose to do in life there will always be ethics & they will always differ from someone elses. I'm talking every single thing you can think of not just snakes. Example: I shouldn't be allowed to have a gun because someone else might shoot someone or something with it? I can list 1000's more. We can flog a dead horse forever & it won't change it. Their will always be idiots no matter what your talking & if you want to let them control what you do in life so be it, me I'll go my own way. Like I said before I like em, each their own. Mark

[vanderkm]

Originally posted by Ontario_herper
Simply put hybrids are bad. Can anyone give me an exapmle of how producing hybrids benefits snakes in any way shape or form (no pun intended)?

I find this a very interesting question and one that made me think for a while this afternoon. My response may not please people, but quite frankly, I do not breed snakes to benefit snakes - I breed them for the same reason that I keep them - to benefit myself. This benefit is not monetary - I lose a lot of money having reptiles (ask my husband!) but I keep and breed them for my own good, not for their good. I exploit them for my own learning and curiosity and I breed them to play with genetics and perfect husbandry because that is fun for me. Selfish - yes - but much human behaviour is selfish. I do provide them with optimal, minimal stress conditions for the duration of their lives and I take responsibility for ensuring that when offspring are sold they have complete information included with them. So I don't feel that I have to justify my decisions about breeding morphs or hybrids based on what is good for the species. That never entered into my decision making.

While I don't breed or keep snakes to benefit the snakes - I do things on a global scale that will benefit herps and wildlife as a whole. These are things like giving money to preserve habitat, participating in public education to increase awareness of the value of wild reptile populations and environment, and supporting a local herp club in both public education and rescue of unwanted herps.

Marisa - I actually found it interesting that you started this thread because every post you make about your kingsnakes and every photo you share of them reflects how strongly you feel about them. It doesn't come as a suprise to me that you would prefer pure kings - and that for you nothing can improve on them. The best advice I have ever taken off a forum with regard to keeping herps was to keep and breed what you love to work with (thanks to Corey Woods!) and I believe it is very true. Go with that!


mary v.

[Ontario_herper]

gonesnakee- True a corn x king would have little impact (unless it carried disease) in Calgary, or here in Ontario but in the US (in areas they are naturally found) it could have more of an impact. Especially as these hybrids are produced in larger numbers the chance of them becomes increased. It is true that some of the morph's come from wild snakes but as far as I know corns and kings do not naturally hybridize.

I guess I see it from the point of view that there are so many amazing snakes out there.... including many that we know little about captive husbandry. Why take snakes that would not naturally reproduce and do just that? To me it just doesn't make sense. From what you guys have told me it is done because you like the look of the hybrids and you like to see what sorts of suprises you can get? Again I don't feel that this is a good enough reason to breed these types of snakes. As I've seen so far no one has given me a way that producing hybrids benefits snakes at all. So why not just satisfy your curiosity via another route.

Obviously we feel different about these snakes. That much is clear. I'm just trying to understand the draw to producing hybrids.

[Katt]

I'm going to come across really strongly so I get my point across.

You people "debating" hybrids, are WASTING YOUR TIME. Hybrids are out there, out there before Mark and I even popped out of our momma's bellies. There's nothing you can do, unless you want to DNA test, every single snake. To test it's "purity".

Ethics? Please, read the paper, it doesn't exist for most people.

The snakes aren't the problem, IT'S THE PEOPLE!

You're not going to stop the "problem" as you see it by "debating" it. Sure sure, you might stop a couple newbies who don't know any better, but the fact is, there are unscrupulous people producing, who knows what, with who knows what, passing it off as you know what.

As ALWAYS buyer beware. Buy from people who you trust, b/c chances are, they buy from people they trust, who can trace the lineage of the snakes they have bred.

As for why people produce hybrids, well, like most things we do, b/c we can. B/c the snakes can. Isn't a species definined by a discrete group which can only breed among themselves? Why does this not exist within snakes? Why can GENUS cross quite easily, back and forth with no problem? Hybrids, demand we reevaluate our idea of what a species is. There's a certain mystique about a creature, that exists, when it shouldn't. It should just be a dead in the egg, but there it is, ALIVE, EATING, and even BREEDING.

Selective breeding produces animals, that fit our "ideal". Hybrids are just an extension. As snakes move towards domestication, what we do with them will be quite similar to what has been done to the domestic rat, mouse, cat, dog, livestock. An animal which suits us, and our selfish needs.

Anyway, I ranted. I don't want to come across that I don't appreciate wild species, wild animals, or anything. In fact I absolutely love seeing wild snakes. That is one of the reasons we moved here, to see wild garters, wild bulls, and wild rattlers. To know that they exist, live and free, WITHOUT any our help. Those snakes are pure. Not the ones we keep in our homes.

[Scales Zoo]

Well, there are so many good points to each side of the argument, which will remain eternal.

While I personally think that anyone who crosses a jungle python with a diamond python should be shot, I am biased because I have a pair of diamond pythons.

I do not breed corns or kings, I used to, and my favorites since I was a kid were the jungle corns and the gopher corns.

If they are priced higher, hopefully people who are getting them will know for sure what they are getting.

When it comes to corn - king crossing's, I don't think any new people who are doing it can be blamed.

Look at the one picture of Marks corn. In the U.S - that would be a $1000+ snake. He kept it, and I bet he is going to breed it to a variety of cool snakes to keep the frankenstein thing going. You know what, so would I, I bet, if my breeding efforts would have gone that way.

It is such a cool looking snake that can't be found in the wild anywhere, I can see how waiting for the eggs that were produced by that snake would be exciting.

And I might keep all of the babies for myself, or sell them at a high price - which they would sell for. You have to admit, it would be exciting.

Ryan

[Scales Zoo]

Unfortunately, I didn't get to read Katt's post before I posted mine.

Ryan

[Katt]

I just wanted to make an edit.

Crossing very rare animals is completely wrong in my opinion. A well as rare localities (Hogg Isles, etc), b/c those rare animals ARE in serious danger of extinction. Whilst common colubrids are not.

[Linds]

Originally posted by gonesnakee
REMEMBER we are in the General Colubrid Forum talking about Jungle Corns, if we were in the General Python forum my thoughts would definitely be different.

Your opinion may be different depending on the animal in question, but my opinion remains the same, regardless. Whether this was in the Amphibian forum, Python forum, or Colubrid forum, you would've gotten the identical response. Often I use red wolves as an example when arguing hybrids, just because they are not a reptile does not mean it is incapable of illustrating my point all the same. Boids are my main focus, so I chose to use an example of what I know best. It still illustrates the exact same point. So while it may not make sense for you to post something like I did in this forum, is not to mean it doesn't make sense for me to ;)

[Ontario_herper]

So only rare animals should be exempt from being crossed? So then you are saying that it is wrong? Rare or not is shouldn't matter. All snakes are of value and one day most snakes will be rare.

I guess I should go out and poach every animal I see fit until it becomes rare and then stop. Is this not the same as what you are saying Katt? Exploit the animals until they become rare and then give a crap about them? That is just obserd!

[C.m.pyrrhus]

As folks can tell, the ideals of hybrids, intergrades and morphs are far between. This is my view as simple as I can put it.

In my opinion, I do not see anything overly wrong with the breeding of snakes either way. It seriously comes down to the people whom do the breeding and selling. That to me is the important factor in it all.

Now by this point the market is completely flooded. These snakes are now no longer "cool" and they're not worth a cent. So this guy decides to release his snakes because he's a total idiot. Now you have hybrid snakes running around breeding with wild normal snakes.
This is a silly arguement. Ideally any snake that becomes "lost" to the wild will be able to impact in a negative way equally, not only hybrids. To say that this is even something that could seriouly damage an ecosystem over any other is rediculous.

Anyone who says that it is an unatural method and immoral may be right in some aspect, but to be honest there would not be many morphs it was not for the genes in a natural environment in the first place. Even here in AZ, several species intergrade and hybridize. I see it quite often as well. I have seen many WDB x Mojave, WDB x Blacktail....intergrades of Coachwips and Gophersnakes, Garters. There are Kings that intergrade. By simple genitics, we could possably have even garter x King hybrids. Some other species including lizards aslo, and all done by naturally occuring and influenced methods, not by man. This is only one state in one country. Does this make God just as evil as man?

Also, there is the roll of snakes as a pet in the animal trade as well. I do not see anything immoral here. This is far from any "conservation of species" motivation linked in here. Hybrids put animals in the trade that otherwise would not occur. They are there simply as pets, as an interesting animal that folks desire to keep. I do not see how this can be frowned upon myself. Neither can one say that becuase they have a Cali King, that it even closely resembles any native snake in the wild. Who is to say that their animals are "naturally occuring" even if it is 'pure', that is unless you caught it yourself. In my eyes, a Cali King from California mated with another from Arizona is not "pure" by any means. It is still not a hybrid, it is still the same species as both parents, but also not what it was entended by its maker either. (Thus another example of why hybrids are looked upon as bad, evil and immoral) To me this is equally as prolific in terms of morality as hybrids are.

So, as I see it, the arguement of hybrids and the like are pretty silly. The pet trade should by no means reflect any conservational ideals. They are seperate in both methods, reasoning and understanding. If anyone must push the moral ethics of breeding, they should look into every aspect of herpoteculture, not only the obvious hybrids, morphs and intergrades. As the fact remains that nearly 100% of the animals in the pet trade are nothing to be compared to in respect of naturally occuring species. These obvious animals stick out more, that is all, but should not be looked at seperately.

Why take snakes that would not naturally reproduce and do just that? To me it just doesn't make sense. .
P.S.- To me there is a natural reason these snakes can create offspring. Whether or not that they may or may not exsist naturally, does not mean that they would not down the line. Neither does that mean that other ways can create these creations other than breeding them. A corn could hitch a ride on a train and end up in another state and do the same thing ( this has been documented in other species with more impact than simple breeding by herpers) that breeders do. To say that breeders in a market cannot do this, but overlooking other negatively impacting ways makes for a pointless arguement.

[gonesnakee]

Round & round we go, some good points by all. Cheers for Linds sticking by her purist attitude & yes I can relate. I do hold almost the same views, but there are exceptions to every rule it seems in my case. I don't do nothing across the board LOL. Call me a hypocrit, but I got me some cool snakes & don't worry Dave I definitely won't be letting them go (well maybe if the price is right heh heh) LOL Mark
P.S. Right on Mary & Go Hybrids Go! (Not applicable in all cases LOL)
P.P.S. Ryans totally right about being excited to see, as you never know what may slither out. Literally every single snake of the clutch can be unique in its own way. Some way moreso than others : )

[Swampwalker]

I'm not a fan of morphs or hybrids. With so many different types of snakes in the world, I don't see why there is the need to create something different. There is enough variety out there, that everyone should be able to find something interesting. I'm more interested in the natural history of these animals than I am in the pet trade. I would prefer to have animals that is something that can be found in the wild and I can show people the beauty of these natural animals.

I feel there is too much emphasis in the hobby on how much is this snake worth. Its treated as a commodity to be traded or sold. I see to many people buying a snake at one show and selling it at the next (or on-line) so that they can get the next gotta have impulse. But thats another rant of its own.

I guess the only upside to hybrids is that you won't all be running out and stripping the wilderness of normal corns.

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by vanderkm
quite frankly, I do not breed snakes to benefit snakes - I breed them for the same reason that I keep them - to benefit myself.

Finally an honest keeper! This has come up in a lot of other debates in other threads whether on the subject of line/inbreeding, hybrids/integrades and others. I hear a lot of self-righteous nonsense about whether or not it's "right" to play these genetic games with these captive animals. I would say that it is not a moral question, these are captive animals and whether they are identical in a genetic way to wild specimens is totally irrelevant.

Is it a loss if all the diamond python captive stock gets mutted with other breeds? Sure it is, but it's a loss to those of us that want to keep them and nothing else. It's not a conservation issue, conservation is something that has to take place in the wild not in a rack of rubbermaids. If something goes extinct in the wild it's game over. It may be neat to have an example around in captivity to look at but that doesn't reverse the extinction in the wild.

Once a captive gene pool is established it becomes a seperate entity, our personal lump of genetic play-dough. We can choose to keep the genes distinct through careful breeding and good record keeping or we can have a bunch of unidentifiable mutts out there. It's up to us, the people who keep and breed the animals to make that captive gene pool what it is. Let's not confuse ourselves though, whatever we do with that bunch of genes we do for ourselves and anything that is undesirable coming from is only an inconvenience to us. I promise that the snakes don't care about any of this.

[Ontario_herper]

Indeed! An honest keeper! It's good to know that you care more about yourself than preserving natural bloodlines. Of course, natural bloodlines can be tough to conserve but it hardly seems right to go out of your way to screw them up.

If you guys want to set-up a science experiment may I suggest drawing pictures or playing with a photo editor instead of creating these mutts.

[gonesnakee]

Question for ONT HERPER What exactly (if any) animals do you keep & if any where do you get off judging anybody else for what they keep. Are we not all selfish to keep anything in captivity. Judge not my friend. Mary was the only one that was "big enough" to state what is true of every single animal keeper/breeder, yourself included (if you keep any animal of any kind) in the world. Do you go down to the local Zoo & hassle them too, eat meat, wear leather, shall I go on LOL Obviously you don't get it or are a major hypocrit? Look past your own morals for a second & see the big picture. Its called reality Mark

[MouseKilla]

O.H.

Please explain why it is important that captive bloodlines are pure. If we meddle with nature (as in outside, in the wild, not my snake room) and screw up those bloodlines that is a different story but captive animals have NOTHING to do with wild bloodlines. The only thing that making a mess of captive genes does is make it a pain in the nuts for breeders to know what they are working with but it hurts the animals none, there is no evidence that a hybridized or integraded animals suffers as a result of it's unusual genetic make up.

Don't get me wrong here though, I like that some people are out there trying to keep the wild TYPE stock in existence but please give guys like Mark some credit for properly identifying what it is they are selling and working with. Keep in mind that hybrid breeders also want to know what genes they are working with and they aren't out to wipe out other bloodlines but rather start new ones.

[~Suntiger~]

Ok ... so we breed the corn with the king, hey they're both snakes, so all's good.

Then we breed the lion with a tiger, hey they're both big cats -- we end up with the abomination known as the liger. UGH.

I think that just because a creature WILL breed with another, doesn't mean that they SHOULD. Granted, this isn't going to alter the opinions of anyone set in their ways, but just thought I'd throw that out there.

Personally, I find nature fascinating enough. To each their own.

[Ontario_herper]

I keep a collection of about 70 reptiles.

I do eat meat (I try to do so in a responsible way by not wasting)!

And yes I do hassle local zookeepers LOL (those that I know)

If I saw a hybrid at the zoo I may ask what they are trying to accomplish by having it on display?

I do find is somewhat greedy to take an animal out of the wild. I can't say that I've never done it nor that I wouldn't do it again. The fact is that our captive herps have to ocme from somewhere. BUT once WC animals have produced offspring I no longer think that it is greedy. A captive bred snake doesn't know the difference between the wild and a plastic container in my basement. Feel free to prove me wrong!

I try to keep my animals in a responsible and ethical way. Does this mean that i am always bang on 100% of the time.. no! You can't always preserve natural bloodlines in captivity (in most cases you can't). But I owuldn't go out of my way to produce un-natural snakes. I don't see how I am a hypocrit for saying this? Please explain.....

Do people not judge others everyday? I have an opinion and it happens to fit into this discussion. I am not saying that anyone is a bad person. I just happen to not agree with producing un-natural hybrids, same as you believe they should be produced. Don't say that I shouldn't have an opinion just because it doesn't follow suit with yours!

Thanks for listening!

[Oliverian]

I agree with mousekillah and mark. If you are doing a conservation project where the animals you work with need to stay pure, then I can see why you would be against hybrids and morphs. But for the average keeper or breeder, all these morphs and hybrids create more diversity in the animals that are available to chose from. A good thing for reptile enthusiasts. It's kind of like all the breeds of dog we have out there. Does it hurt the natural population of dogs (wolves, coyotes, ect) if we keep breeding strange dog morphs like chihuaguas, great danes, and pit bulls? No. Does it make us happier to have such a variety of animals to chose from? I would say that it does. Its not the wild animal genetics that are affected by what occurs in the pet trade, its only the captive genetics.
I see nothing wrong with hybridization, as long as you let people konw exactly what animal they are getting. Thats just my .02.
-TammyR

[Oliverian]

Looks like i'm a slow typer today! Two people posted while I was writing my reply. I didn't see the part where it said you were a hypocrit or shouldn't have an opinion the first time I read this David, and I don't agree with that. Sorry for possibly sounding against you personally there. I respect your views, just simply think differently.

-TammyR

[Ontario_herper]

Mousekilla...... it is great that Mark is honest when selling his hybrids. But as we have already established not all people are so honest. With a whole lot of dishonesty comes a whole lot of mis-represented animals. Where will these animals go? the will trickle down into our "reptile market". Many people will keep these snakes and many wil breed them. Now there are tonnes of snakes that can't really be identified. Do you not see this as a porblem?

Oliverian - why more diversity? Have you or anyone else mastered all 2,700 species of snake? Can you even name all 2,700 species? I sure can't! Using dogs is a really bad example for this topic. Why didn't you mention all the problems associated with many of these breeds? Nature has perfected (as much as they need to be) wild reptiles. Why screw up the work tjhat has been done?

[Oliverian]

David, I don't think you'll find that a lot of keepers will want to try and work with all 2,700 species of snakes. That is also a bad example. Many of those snakes are venemous, too large or too small for the average keeper, some don't do well in captivity, ect. Also, most people like to work with species that they enjoy. That cuts the number down considerably. So my argument is, why not? What is wrong with hybrids in the captive hobby? Other than the fact that they may be misrepresented, but many people make sure they buy from people they trust. Many morphs and het animals are also misrepresented, ie: someone selling you a normal snake that they lied about and told you was het for albino. Or someone selling you a snake in ill health. You just have to deal with these problems, and most people avoid them by buying from reputable breeders that they trust. Many people in this hobby do it to gain personal knowledge, and learn about the snakes that they keep. Could you not expand your knowledge and the knowledge of the hobby even further by working with hybrid animals? Many other people do it for personal enjoyment. Again, having more like species around to chose from and work with is an enjoyable aspect for many people.

Nature has perfected (as much as they need to be) wild reptiles. Why screw up the work tjhat has been done?
Yes, but our captive animals will have NO EFFECT on wild ones. This hybridizing is going on in captive animals (In most cases. sometimes I would imagine it does happen in the wild as well.) It doesn't hurt nature, yet it benifits the hobby in many ways. (IMO)

Please explain to me how hybridizing (and producing morphs, if you will) harms wild populations.

-TammyR

[Oliverian]

It's kind of like all the breeds of dog we have out there. Does it hurt the natural population of dogs (wolves, coyotes, ect) if we keep breeding strange dog morphs like chihuaguas, great danes, and pit bulls? No. Does it make us happier to have such a variety of animals to chose from? I would say that it does.

Using dogs is a really bad example for this topic. Why didn't you mention all the problems associated with many of these breeds?

I was using this example to illustrate the point that having new animals to learn about and keep makes the hobby more enjoyable to many people, and has no impact on wild populations. I didn't use it to state the problems associated with dog morphs. (or snake morphs, for that matter) In fact, don't dogs have all their different morphs from inbreeding? (please correct me if I'm wrong) So really, the amount of problems in different dog breeds has no rellevence when discussing hybrids. (unless my previous statement was false, and if it was, my mistake!)
-TammyR

[Swampwalker]

Oliverian:
I don't think you'll find that a lot of keepers will want to try and work with all 2,700 species of snakes. That is also a bad example. Many of those snakes are venemous, too large or too small for the average keeper, some don't do well in captivity, ect. Also, most people like to work with species that they enjoy. That cuts the number down considerably.

Even with the number cut down considerably, I would think there is still enough diversity to keep people from getting bored and need to create these de$igner $nake$.

[Linds]

Originally posted by C.m.pyrrhus
The pet trade should by no means reflect any conservational ideals. They are seperate in both methods, reasoning and understanding.

Maybe for now in most cases, but natural habitats for many species is being wiped out at an alarming rate, and some species may not be alive in the wild anymore. In some cases, the animals in captivity are all that is left of the (sub)species, take for instance Hog Isle Boas or Jamaican Boas. It's important that these animals be kept as pure as possible, or they will be lost completely. Hogs are already frighteningly close to that as they have been outcrossed with Colombians and other localities so much. Humans are taking over everything, and they are showing no slowing down on it at all. More people make more babies which grow up to have their own families which need more housing and food. I think it was two years ago, maybe three, was the first year in history that there were more births than deaths. One day there will be no places for those animals to live in the wild :(

Originally posted by gonesnakee
Cheers for Linds sticking by her purist attitude & yes I can relate.

Now it's not necessarily that I am a stone cold purist, it's just that unfortunately, hybridization cannot be controlled due to the dishonesty of people in this wold, which in turn poses a very real threat to the species. Some animals look craaazy... lol... if someone offered me an ATBxETB don't think I would turn it away!

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Basically my point in saying "The pet trade should by no means reflect any conservational ideals. They are seperate in both methods, reasoning and understanding." was that for conservational reasoning, species for the most part MUST be pure. My Cali King example (Parents of two seperate states) was one to show that even relatively common species are not funtionally natural either. Any person in serious conservational interest knows to keep the pet trade seperate from the conservational world. I have collected and "adopted" local snakes from areas here in AZ that are under stress, and these will remain as pure stock of originality. I do not think my boas from the pet shop on the other hand reflect any real-world species, as generally they are mutts for lack of a better word. It all goes hand in hand, yet folks still must understand that what is generally in the pet trade does not strongly reflect nature in most cases. There are the few folks that have serious locale specific breeding programs, myself included with a few species. Yet generally I do not see how conservation works through the homes of folks with "pet trade" animals.

[ont_herper]

Im didn't pay much attention to it, but at one point in time on another forum there was a kid who was trying to catch/ buy/breed ringneck snakes of various kinds and colours to release into the wild so he could catch "cool" looking snakes.

My personal opinion, being a field herper, is that morphs just dont appeal to me. I think it's cool when you see a neat looking snake and say "wow" maybe one day i'll be able to find one of these in the wild some day.

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by Linds
It's important that these animals be kept as pure as possible, or they will be lost completely.

If they only exist in captivity what good to they do nature? Truth is, preserving a species destined for extinction in the wild by raising a captive population is useful only to humans. Once they have dissappeared from the wild it is extremely unlikely that the captive born animals could ever be used to repopulate whatever may be left of the habitat. Again we're doing it all for us, to learn about them, look at them, buy them, sell them, breed them...

[Swampwalker]

Ont_herper:My personal opinion, being a field herper, is that morphs just dont appeal to me. I think it's cool when you see a neat looking snake and say "wow" maybe one day i'll be able to find one of these in the wild some day.

I don't think that I could have put it any better than that. I remember one week where I had a chance to see all kinds of expensive ball morphs (yawn), but that same week I found my first E. Milksnake after looking for several years, talk about being excited. I like natural occuring snakes, and even more so when I see them in the wild (not saying that I don't like captive animals).

[Ontario_herper]

Now that the siamese crocodile is nearly extinct in some areas officials would like to release captive stock. One problem! Almost all captive have been crossed with saltwater crocs. This hybrid croc raised in farms grows faster and has better skin for human use. So now they have to use DNA testing on thousands of crocs to see IF there are any pure siamese in the farms.

This is just an example of how humans have fowled up a species and it has come and kicked them in the rear.

Again I say if you want to see what wierd snakes you can make buy a set or coloured markers.

Stewart... you know I'll take milk snakes over a ball python collection any day lol

[JD@reptiles]

personally i don't even care anymore about jungle corns and all hybrids. When you do that its just you aren't helping ANYTHING you are just making a pet.

[Dozer]

Hybrids dont hurt nor do they benifit. Its neutral. Just like Katt stated, its not the hybrids, its the people :) Hybrids exist in nature. If it wasn't for hybridization on ANY species, there would be no Evolution or speciation. Hybrids, in my opinion, are great. They are very eye appealin' specimens but the price tag ussually isn't ;)

Mike

[Dozer]

So be happy of hybrids, because most likely we wouldn't be here :)

[Katt]

Pure animals will stay pure now and ten years from now.

In the case of these siamese crocs, and indian pythons, it's called MISMANAGEMENT.

As for not crossing rare animals. I just think their resources would be better spent on creating more. That's all. Once indian pythons and siamese crocs are common as corns and kings, then cross away.

[Oliverian]

Pure animals will stay pure now and ten years from now.
I wholeheartedly agree. Sure, some people will hybridize until you don't know what you have, but many people will keep the animals pure. It's just like morphs we have now. Many people still have pure animals, and plan to keep it that way.
-TammyR

[Ontario_herper]

So let me ask you this....

Do you guys understand why I would like to keep my animals as pure as possible? Do you understand why I personally think this is best?

I think I understand why you guys like to create new hybrids (not that I agree, as you may have noticed). But do you see at all why I am against it?

[Oliverian]

I understand where you are coming from, and to a point I agree. I just feel that it is inevitable, so why not take advantage of the situation and enjoy it the best I can? But I know where you're coming from, and I appreciate your views. You definitly have my respect when it comes to the conservation of animals.

-TammyR

[Ontario_herper]

Kind words Oliverian....

Perhaps I am very stuck in my ways but I cannot take adavntage of the situation when I believe it to be wrong. Same is if you saw a lady being mugged on the street you wouldn't snatch up any of her belonging's. That would just be wrong!

This whole hybrid/ morph "scene" is only becoming more popular. It is something that I do not agree with and so far have not had a reason to change my mind on the subject. I do not expect others to change their mind on the matter I am only expressing my opinion on the situation. I feel that it's wrong so I said so.... others have said it's right so they think it's right....

Once again.... just the thoughts of one herper!!!

[gonesnakee]

Gotta stand by your beliefs brother! Cheers Mark

[Ontario_herper]

And I don't blame others on here for doing the same (as with any discussion I have with a person). If you think you're opinion is right then stick by it no matter what!

[Swampwalker]

I just feel that it is inevitable, so why not take advantage of the situation and enjoy it the best I can?

I guess it is inevitable when people think like that. Why not at least try to make a difference.

[gonesnakee]

We are making a difference. That seems to be the problem though doesn't it! LOL Mark

[Oliverian]

I guess it is inevitable when people think like that. Why not at least try to make a difference.

Swampwalker, believe me, if i thought it was a problem that would harm anything, I would be against it. And besides, hybridization is not a new concept. It's been happening in snakes for a long time now. Mabye not on as large of a scale as it is beginning to happen now, but it was still going on. Please don't blame me for taking advantage of a situation, be it good or bad. I'm just an optimist. If I believed it was a bad thing, I would do my best to prevent it from happening.

-TammyR

[Stockwell]

I didn't read all the posts... Been there, done that, heard it all a million times... It's a very complex issue and I've heard and understand all arguments, but for what it's worth, since you asked..I'll be brief for a change

I don't support hybrids
I don't make hybrids
and I would never pay a cent for one.
I'm not religious, so none of this has anything to do with playing "g..
I'm an old school herper, training and influenced by even older school herpers, into believing and respecting that these animals are "Wildlife"!!!!!
We keep and work with them by privilege only.
That priviledge is threatened to be revoked every day, by academics and activists alike ,that amongst other things, use our apparent disregard for wildlife to motivate those with the political power to stop us..