Red Footed Tortoise Problem

[Bighead]

We just got a red footed tortoise at the store I work at. He's in a 40 gallon tank right now, he (or she) is about 5 inches long, The humidity is a little above 80% and temperature is in the upper 70's/lower 80's with a basking spot in the high 80's. This seems to be ok according to the caresheets I've read on them, and we've only had him for 2 days, so I'm assuming it's nothing we are doing wrong.

The problem:
I'm not sure if this is normal or not, but when I pick him up, he bobs his head fairly quickly. It just doesn't seem right. It may be my imagination but one of his eyes also looked a little weepy. It wasn't swollen or discolored or anything, but it looked like he had a couple of little tears below one eye. It may have been from his water bowl or something, but thought I should check just in case.

Thanks for any input.

P.S. Is it too early to tell what the sex is? If not, how do I tell? Thanks.

[Turtle Matt]

He could just be very nervous and would increase his heartrate,increasing his breathing which would be the head bobbing...
Matt

[NiagaraReptiles]

Redfoots to typically have tears in thier eyes almost all fo the time. My imediate concern from what you have described is the low temps you are offering it. I'd bump the ambiant our of the 70's to around 85° and bump the basking post to 120°F or so.

While minor head movement is normal when breathing, excessive movement (head and front legs) can be an early sign of a respitory infection. Increasing your temps could also ward this potential off before it becomes serious.

Best wishes,

JonK

[johnnym1972]

Hello there, if you set your basking area at 120 degrees, and your ambient temp at 85 degrees as Jon K suggests, you will not only have a dead Tortoise on your hands, but you will also be able to experience the wonderful aroma of a "well done Red Foot Tortoise a la stupidity"!!!! If your ambient temp is above 80 degrees, you are only asking for trouble and chronic dehydration, since Red Foot's are FOREST dwellers... NOT desert Tortoises!!!!! If you set your basking spot to no higher than 90 degrees, and you provide a good UVB source, your Tortoise will be just fine. If you need any further information, you are welcome to contact me privately through PM or email.
Take care, Johnny.

[NiagaraReptiles]

How professional yet again.................

JonK

[johnnym1972]

Hey Jon K, what exactly is your idea of professional? From the things that you post, I'd have to say that hyperbole and nonsense are your trademarks. I happen to think that experience, knowledge and quality information are the hallmarks of my professionalism. You are more than welcome to try to criticize me any time that you deem it necessary. Just keep in mind that I am always willing to point out the nonsense that people like you seem to always provide. Batter up.....
Take care, Johnny.

[gfisher2002]

No offence Niagra Reptiles, (and really I sincerely mean no offence) but I disagree with the basking temp. 120 deg is pretty hot. I do agree that the ambient temp should definately be in the low to mid 80's. Seventies is too cold. But I keep a basking area of 90 - 100(max) deg. And and ambient temp of 86 in the day and 82 at night. I have never tried 120 deg but it sounds too hot, so I'm not saying your wrong critisizing based on experience, just my opinion.
Hope you don't take my rant as anything other than it is. Not trying to make waves here.
And the head moving, although normal when scared or excited can also be a sign of respitory ailments as Niagra has mentioned.

Since this is only the second redfoot I've owned, I have had one since 1997 and base my opinions on combined research and my own experiences. Please, lets not turn this into a fight. Just state your opinion and let everyone else do the same. We can pick at eachother a bit but let's not be insulting. Can't we all just be friends? lol

Cheers all,
Garrett

[johnnym1972]

Hello Garrett, nicely said, and thanks for the support.
Take care, Johnny.

[NiagaraReptiles]

Originally posted by gfisher2002
No offence Niagra Reptiles, (and really I sincerely mean no offence) but I disagree with the basking temp. 120 deg is pretty hot. I do agree that the ambient temp should definately be in the low to mid 80's. Seventies is too cold. But I keep a basking area of 90 - 100(max) deg. And and ambient temp of 86 in the day and 82 at night. I have never tried 120 deg but it sounds too hot, so I'm not saying your wrong critisizing based on experience, just my opinion.
Hope you don't take my rant as anything other than it is. Not trying to make waves here.
And the head moving, although normal when scared or excited can also be a sign of respitory ailments as Niagra has mentioned.

Since this is only the second redfoot I've owned, I have had one since 1997 and base my opinions on combined research and my own experiences. Please, lets not turn this into a fight. Just state your opinion and let everyone else do the same. We can pick at eachother a bit but let's not be insulting. Can't we all just be friends? lol

Cheers all,
Garrett

Hello Garrett,

I never take offence to differences of opinion, no worries.

I'll elaborate a little regarding my perspective for those interested......

The goal to a reptile while thermoregulating is to attain a certain core temperature (for various reason, not really relevent to my point). They know what that temp is, and when they need it. But do we? Rather than to try to answer that, I would much rather provide the resources to allow the animal to make that decision on it's own. Take a bowling ball (melon, jug of water, etc) and have a thermometer bored into the center. Put that in an area that is 100°F and record how long it will take to reach that temp, if it even does. Now, given that Redfoots don't like the bright light of the sun, nor do they want to be out in the open for any extended period of time during the day, how are they going to raise their core temp to whatever it is that they require at the time? I did have an article regarding recorded core temps in the wild, but I'm unable to locate it for a specific reference. I do recall temps exceeding 100°F as an average for a basking individual.
Providing a basking spot of a higher temp than they require allows them to thermoregulate faster, and more natually (in my opinion).
I raised several hatchling Redfoots and Cherry heads for several years using this method, and have never had any health problems or deaths. More care does need to be taken with hatchlings under a few months of age, as they are more delicate.

I'm not saying that keeping them with a max basking temp of 100°F is <i>bad</i> for them, it's just not what I have experience with.

All that being said, there are several other aspects of husbandry that I did not outline in my origional post that would have an effect over how benifical this system would be. I probably shouldn't have posted this in regards to this particualr thread without having outlined everything in greater detail to begin with and I can see how my origional post would have been taken a little off context.

Best wishes, of course :)

JonK

[johnnym1972]

Okay Jon K, if you want to try to pass off nonsense as fact, that is your perogative. And the simple fact that you can not even quote your so-called sources is poignant at best. I am not going to try to point out all of your inaccuracies, but I will let one of the most knowledgeable and widely respected herpetologists the world has ever known, Sean Mckeown, do it for me.
In Reptiles magazine June 2002 issue, Sean Mckeown authored an article on Red Foot Tortoises which stated definitive knowledge and information that is based on his decades of actual experience!!!!!
In his article, which outlines his accreditation, education, and background as an executive Zookeeper at the Honolulu Zoo, he made the following statements regarding Red Foot Tortoise Husbandry.

"This moisture loving species would not do well in the desert." "If the temperature is above 70 degrees, they should be outside and grazing" "Make sure that they are kept in an area where the temperature stays in the mid 70's to high 80's, with a site that has sunlight available throughout the day."

He goes on to outline many facets of Red Foot Husbandry, as does the follow up article about Red Foot Island. All of the information provided can be taken as more than just the truth. It is based entirely on facts, observations in the natural habitats of Red Foot Tortoises, and field experience.
Jon K, I hope that you can just admit the fact that you are mistaken and leave it at that. I'm not going to waste any more time trying to change your mind, but I will always dispute any incorrect information that is passed off as fact. :)

Take care, Johnny.

[gfisher2002]

Ok, after reading the last two post, I'd have to say I agree with both of you in some way. I agree with Johnny, and his factual quote, that an ambient temp of mid 70's to high 90's is the best for your tort. Absolutely agree.

Niagra, I now understand why you have such a warm basking area after hearing your logic behind your methods. Why should we try to decide what the tort needs. Make one end 76 and one end 110 and let the tort find the spot in the middle that he likes. Like you said, thermal regulation.

Now, What I'm left debating in my head that has not been mentioned are these two things.
#1 If an unexperienced tort keeper is told to have a basking area of 120 he might stick a 150 Watt heat lamp into the corner of a 33 galon tank and bake his tort. Unless you were to describe thermal regulation and it's necessities on the keepers part and other important aspects.

#2 I have (and this is a fact) seen a few turtles and 1 tortoise bake itself and die from free roaming and sitting next to a hot-water radiator. Not burn itself but baked from being there too long. Given, the owners were absolute idiots who couldn't care for a cricket let alone a tort. So this leads me to form an opinion that either some torts don't know when they are too hot in a short period of time or that some species of tort can not tell when they are too hot. None of these turtles/torts were stuck under the radiator. They all could have walked away, but if was warm and enjoyable at first but enevitably they didn't know when it was too much.

Now what do you guys think about this? I'm not trying to start a fight. These are not facts, except the incidents involving the radiator, but more questions I'd like to hear opinions on. Because IF infact a tort can't always tell it's too hot, should this be something we, as tort keepers, should take into consideration?
What do you all think?

Garrett

[Bighead]

It sounds like there must have been something else going on with the radiator incidents. Maybe the ambient temperature in the room was too cold and the radiator was too hot, but they couldn't find a good medium so they gave up and parked it by the radiator. That's why a lot of snakes and lizards get burned by heat rocks. The outside of their body is sizzling but the inside hasn't been near the heat long enough to get to a decent temperature, so the brain tells it to stay put. Maybe I'm way off too. Whatever.

Thanks for them help anyways. I'll probably get a little warmer bulb in there for him and I'm glad to hear I was being a little paranoid. I'll will keep a close eye on him and let you guys know how it goes.

[johnnym1972]

Hello Garrett, that is precisely the point!!! Tortoises would NEVER experience temperatures of 120 degrees in the wild!!! I have pictures and documented proof of many reptiles cooking themselves, burning themselves, and dying under or near heat sources because they DO NOT know when they have had TOO MUCH!!!! There is absolutely no logic to providing a temp that high to an animal that doesn't have the ability or the means to understand the consequenses of it's actions. The only truly ETHICAL and RESPONSIBLE way to keep reptiles, is to provide the best facsimile of their NATURAL HABITAT to them so that they can try to mimic their NATURAL LIFE CYCLE as realistically as possible!!!!! If you read the documented temperature and humidity readings that have been recorded where the Red Foot's natural habitat and active ranges are located, these facts would better understood. I'm not going to argue about the differences between FACTS and OPINIONS, because I only work with facts. Proven, scientifically collected and standardized facts are the only way for any SERIOUS keeper to be able to be truly RESPONSIBLE, 100% ACCOUNTABLE, AND ABOVE ALL ELSE, ETHICAL!!!!!!!

Take care, Johnny.

[chicki57]

I'm by no means even close to a expert. I just got my first redfoot 2 weeks ago. I just thought that I'd tell you how I keep my redfoot ( I read a major amount of info on these guys) and maybe it will help you. Anyways I have it so he can bask at 110 if he wants or go to a part where the temp is as low as 73. I find so far he has never basked at the 110 degrees but stays pretty much at the middle ...in the high 70's to middle 80's. It seems after he eats he'll head to the bit warmer area (low 90's). I can't believe that they are not aware of the different temperatures??? If that was the case, they would never haved survived for this many century's !
have fun with your guy, their really awesome creatures.

[zhiv9]

I provide temperatures based on behaviour for all my herps. If they are spending all day under the heat source its too cold, if they spend all day as far from the heat source as possible its too hot. I look for the median. When the heat lamp comes on in the morning they should bask under it to warm up and then move around the enclosure. The same thing should happen after they eat. People get too obsessed with numbers "70 is too cold", "120 is too hot." Your tortoise will thermoregulate, and some individuals will like it hotter or colder than others, watch a provide them with temps based on their behaviour. Also keep it mind that the larger the enclosure the better the thermal gradient.

Just because a PhD said it or observed it doesn't make something fact. In the end its all opinion, only the evidence supporting it makes it more or less valid. The whole point of a forum is to share ideas and opinions. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them wrong or justify insulting them.
It would be nice to keep things civil.

My 2 cents

[Bighead]

very well said zhiv9.

Here's the update. The weepy eye started to look a little worse and he still wasn't eating so I took him into the vet today. He said it's a vitamin A deficiency which led to the eye problem, and a respiratory infection - hence the head bobbing and heavy breathing. So now the poor little guy has to get a bunch of shots. I'm trying to convince our buyer not to use this breeder/importer anymore. We have also gotten two sick chameleons from them and I think we're done. I'll keep you all posted on the progress.

[gfisher2002]

Who are you getting from? This breeder sounds like an idiot. Selling sick animals?

[Bighead]

I probably shouldn't say who it was, but it's a very large scale breeder in the states. I think they are based in Arizona. I think it's partly the fault of my store for accepting sick animals, or not realizing it right when they come in, but that will not continue.