Rattlesnake Pics from Summer 2003

[emroul]

Hey, just thought I'd share some pictures of rattlesnakes that I've found over last summer while my fiance and I went field herping. It was alot of fun, and we found some pretty cool stuff. I plan on doing it this coming summer, as well. Well anyway, here you go:

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/Tiger2.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/sw.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/s.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/mj.jpg

This female is gravid in this picture. We took her off the road, took her home, and waited for her to have her babies successfully. (She had 11 all together, No slugs!:))
http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/fsidewinder4.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/fsidewinder2.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/folder.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/folder3.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/folder2.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/folder1.jpg

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v15/emroul/db2.jpg

Thanks for looking. :)
Jennifer

[shaggybill]

hey, cool snakes. I am making plans to come out there is this spring/early summer, I hope I can find some stuff like that.

[Dozer]

:eek:

[JD@reptiles]

ok, i am going herping with you

[Fieldnotes]

Looks like you like to play with Fire!

[emroul]

Originally posted by Fieldnotes
Looks like you like to play with Fire!

Nope, not really into pyrotechnics; I just like rattlesnakes. LOL....:p

Thanks for the comments, guys. :)
Jennifer

[TheRedDragon]

Wow! AWESOME finds! I don't agree with taking specimens home from field herping finds. But, congrats on not getting any slugs from the female you brought home.

[JD@reptiles]

yeah i am the same with not taking animals out of the wild. but you must originally have WC to get CB...

[ClarkC]

Erin,
Most of the snakes you have were wild caught at some point. I have had four
w/c snakes die in twenty years of field herping in Arizona. It's not at all unusual
to have imports come in with 20% or more dead. So were is the logic in that?

[ClarkC]

Erin,
Most of the snakes you have were wild caught at some point. I have had four
w/c snakes die in twenty years of field herping in Arizona. It's not at all unusual
to have imports come in with 20% or more dead. So were is the logic in that?

[JD@reptiles]

well people dont feel its right taking things out of their habitat. espeshily with endangered animals. those snakes that you posted aren't hard to get CB in the states either. but you are right. you must originally have WC to get CB.

Cheers

Jordan

[Dozer]

Its a matter of money in most cases. Why pay 50 when you can get it for free sorta deal....

[ClarkC]

about money. In Arizona you can't buy,sell,or trade native reptiles. And you can't have venomous from any where else. If you are reposable and only collect what you really want to work with. Than there is no problem. As long as you are staying with in the laws.You want to talk money!! Why do you think they are importing so many reptiles for the pet trade? MONEY!!!! It is common to have 20% or more imports come in dead. Like we need any more green Iguanas. The
aha here in Arizona does 200 to 300+ Iguana rescue calls every year. I'm still not
seeing your logic?

[emroul]

Just like ClarkC said, in Arizona it is ILLEGAL to import/export/buy/sell/trade any venomous within the state line; period. That means we cannot possess vipers, cobras, or any exotic "hot", etc; as well as any crotalus species that are not native (ie, Timbers, EDB's, etc). So, if we want something, we have to go find it. There is nothing wrong with WC animals as long as you: 1) know what you are doing with them and 2) have a fair purpose for keeping them, and 3) you take only what you need, I would say 1.1 of one species is enough; and that's fair.

Originally posted by Dozer
Its a matter of money in most cases. Why pay 50 when you can get it for free sorta deal....

And WC specimens do not come free, anyway; Dozer. Vet trips, antibiotics, etc, are always more costly than the animal themselves.

Jennifer

[Dozer]

Keepin' an animal will obviously cost money, however, to sell it after to make a profit , thats what I kinda meant. And I'm not sayin' this guy caught them just to sell 'em, I'm not tryin' to slam onto this guy either. I'm just sayin' :P

[emroul]

And like I said, we CAN'T sell them. Besides, I do it purely for the love of the animal. :) Whether people think it's "cruel", or just about about money, I don't think it is, so...

Jennifer

[crocdoc]

weird laws. They allow you to collect native species but don't allow you to exchange CB individuals of native species?

Seems a bit bass ackwards to me. They should allow the exchange of CB individuals and stop the capture of wild ones (once there are enough CB animals around). The keepers AND the wild populations will benefit.

[emroul]

Yup. Weird laws. But whatta you do? :rolleyes:

Jennifer

[crocdoc]

perhaps if enough keepers organised to petition the wildlife authorities (it is for the benefit of the wildlife, after all) you could have those laws changed. We used to have all out bans on captive reptiles here (NSW, Australia), with the exception of nine common species. Eventually that got changed, a licencing system was put in place and now a large number of species can be kept. The two important rules are:

1. they must be CB
2. they can't be sold commercially, only privately (ie no reptiles in petshops, no ads in magazines). Breeders tend to sell all of their animals through online hobbyist websites, herp society newsletters and word of mouth.

First time reptile keepers can get a licence without difficulty, just a matter of sending money in and waiting. To keep more difficult or venomous species, however, a higher level of licence is required and some proof of experience is necessary (having a basic licence for a minimum time period, proven ability to deal with venomous etc). It probably sounds restrictive and prohibitive to many of you, but it is allowing the herp hobby to grow in leaps and bounds.

There are rorts to the system, of course, but overall it works quite well. Most people prefer CB over wild caught, anyway, for they adapt more easily to captivity and breed more readily. Best of all, there is no need to keep taking wild ones out of their habitat.

[ClarkC]

Second if you think you can get herpers together to petition anything. You might
as well stick to the lotto. LOL

[crocdoc]

That was constructive.

Perhaps if people bred a few of the local species they could 'gift' the offspring to other keepers in exchange for other reptiles they wanted/needed. Just a suggestion.

[brandi]

actually, you CAN gift natives, but keeping natives at all is frowned uppon. You just cannot buy, sell, trade, any WC animal OR its offspring. But we have some truly fantastic herps in AZ, and none of the spp Jennifer collected are threatened in any way. she also (unlike a lot of folks) seems to have half a clue what she's doing. nobody likes to see an animal taken from the wild, but private collecting, especially by someone like Jen, is not a problem. Also, we can't jsut go and grab anything, we first have to buy a hunting/fishing license (44$USD) and there are strict bag limits on what we can collect.

btw, where did you find those tigers? they are gorgeous!!! I want to come see!!! Missed you at the meeting last night. We need to go herping soon!

B~

[emroul]

Hey Brandi, thanks for the comments. :) Those Tigers are found around Arizona..hehe...No specific spot mentioned, but thank you for the compliment on him. I didn't make it to the meeting. My car is giving me loads of unwanted trouble :rolleyes: , so I'll probably be there next time. Did Dr. Funk speak last night?

Jennifer

[crocdoc]

I wasn't suggesting that any were threatened in any way, but I know from experience how quickly local extinctions occur around population centres when reptiles become popular and the hobby increases. In other words, if you lived in a city in Arizona, in time you'd have to go further and further out of town to see (or collect) wild reptiles. The bag limits don't determine where the animals can be collected (other than outside of national parks, I presume) and for those herpers living in cities, it is easiest to collect nearby than further away.

Hey, in the end it doesn't really bother me. In fact, it doesn't have anything to do with me, for I don't live in Arizona and if I were to go there to view wild reptiles I'd probably head far away from urban centres, anyway.

[brandi]

you know, for all the finger wagging people do over collecting a wild snake... I would rather see it in Jennifer's house, well fed and cared for, than shot or driven over by the next ignorant person to come along. (I'm not bashing hunters either, i've been hunting in AZ almost as long as I could walk) But in this state the posession regulations for C. atrox are "four (4) live and unlimmited dead." and you'l notice Jen didn't say where she found these animals, but i'll bet you she wasn't anywhere near a city. nor is she grabbing animals and running across the boarder to Californina and selling them. and frankly, i'm sick and tired everyone giving keepers grief because "you MUSTN'T touch Nature!!!" over collecting is uncool, but there's room for private collections. i guess the long and short of this is SKATEBOARDING IS NOT A CRIME. peace out yall, props to ya jen!

[crocdoc]

no one was pointing fingers at anyone. I am simply a big believer in captive bred animals rather than wild caught. If it is okay for one person to collect some for their collection, it is okay for the next, and the next, and the next and soon it does become an issue.

As far as roadkills and snakes being shot, it's a nice thought that the ones being taken home by people are being saved from certain death. However, the people that shoot them or drive over them don't decide to kill four fewer because someone has taken four home to keep. The ones being kept just add to the number being removed from the population already through being driven over and shooting.

This isn't a problem if the numbers are monitored and kept to a reasonable level, but even though Jen may not take them from near where she lives that's not to say that all of the other people out there with permits show the same consideration.

Once again, it isn't my local herp population, so it really doesn't affect my herping (ie whether or not I see any in the wild) so do as you please. I'm not asking anyone to defend themselves, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I am just stating a personal opinion.

[Dozer]

i didn't mention you , nor did i mention arizona or anythin', all i did was say somethin' about people who take animals outta the wild to sell them to make profit, and in their cases, takin' animals out of the wild is about da money

[JD@reptiles]

but in this case it isn't about the money. its about the love of the reptiles and the strange laws.

[ClarkC]

This subject has been discussed to death. The herps found road cruising are like
less than 1% of the population in that given area. If you own any reptiles than you have supported the very problem (wild collected reptiles) that you are
complaining about. And at least with the native herps. It's about the love of the
herps and the hobby. Not the money!! And last. The people that herp in Arizona
for there own collections are very carefull how they collect the herps. In the Import world they are paying natives very little to collect snakes and they are
just grabbing them with tongs and putting them in bags as fast as they can.
Sometimes 8,10, or more in one bag. It's not unusual for Imports to come in with 30% dead. So if you own a exotic reptile cb or not. Than you have supported
this kind of activitiy. And yes I own exotics too. But I'm not the one talking smack
about field collecting.

[crocdoc]

hmmm.. who said anything about exotics and the number of imports dying? That's not really what this discussion is about.

For what it is worth, I own CB natives, nothing else. It's the law here in Australia.

If you'd been here through the entire conversation, Clark, you'd know that I am not talking about endangering a species by collecting. I'm referring to local extinction. I live in a large city (around 5 million people) with a lot of herpers. Even though collecting species A would only affect a tiny proportion of that species' total number, if it were okay for everyone with an interest in reptiles to collect species A you'd soon find it impossible to find one within easy reach of any city. Personally, I like that I can go out in the bush, not far from where I live, and see wild reptiles. That would change quickly with legal collecting. You can quote all the percentages and numbers you want, but I have been to places (including places in the US) that have been 'herped out'. It sucks.

[ClarkC]

I wasn't talking to just you. You weren't the first to make a dumb statement.
There are a few people here that keep exotics that like to give field herpers a
hard time about collecting. You have to remember the U.S. is run very different
than Australia. Even though I don't agree with some of the laws here. The
general way it is setup works well. I've live in the U.S. all my life 42 years. And
in Arizona 20years. And I can tell you that we have a big problem here with
native wild life (reptiles). Around the cities. I have also been doing reptile rescues
for many years. And it is a big problem. The snakes in the pics that were posted.
Were not around the the city. There are a few good reasons to get cb natives over
wild caught. But local extinction is not one of them. Like I said the U.S. is run
a little different. We still have the right to keep exotics and keep and bare arms
(guns).

[chas*e]

Wow.....nice snakes..PS.. don't care what people have to say on this site...they constantly look for a reason to flare a post

[crocdoc]

sigh...

"You weren't the first to make a dumb statement."

What is it with you people? As soon as someone disagrees with you, they are being 'dumb' or saying 'dumb' things, or looking for a reason to flare a post. Believe it or not, sometimes people say things because they believe them, not because they are looking for a reason to flare, and sometimes people can disagree with you and not be 'dumb' or be saying 'dumb' things. You don't see me telling you that what you are saying is dumb because I disagree.

Oh, and I'm not going to enter into the whole gun ownership debate with you (how this always comes up in discussions about keeping reptiles is also a uniquely American phenomenon). Been there, done that, goes nowhere.

As far as exotic reptile ownership goes, I am happy we aren't allowed to keep them here. We have a huge number of native reptiles, more than any other country (probably continent) on earth. Not only do we not need more, but that native population is threatened by every exotic that gets smuggled in, for they run the risk of going feral or bringing in exotic diseases.

If you think this is another 'dumb' statement, do a bit of research and you'll find that IBD has been brought into Australia via a smuggled boa. If it ever gets into our native python population the native pythons are screwed, and that's a lot of python species to lose at one time.

As far as ferals go, we've had one nasty introduction of an exotic (not via the pet trade, but introduced nontheless) and that's enough, thanks. Do some research into what the cane toad (Bufo marinus) is doing to monitor lizard and snake populations as it makes its way across our tropical top end. If you think this is all made up stuff, I can tell you that I've been there and have seen the damage. What were once the commonest monitor species up there are now gone from huge areas. Some of the native mammals are in danger of extinction as a consequence, also.

I am impressed that you have reached the age of 42 without ever experiencing a 'herped out' area. Good on you. I wish I could say the same, but I've seen what happens when wild collecting goes unchecked. On the other hand, I've also been to very remote areas that have never been herped and know what the potential is to compare it to.

As I said dozens of posts ago, we'll have to agree to disagree. They're your reptiles, you live there, you herp there. It isn't my issue what you do with them.

[Cruciform]

What's funny about people quoting the right to bear arms is that they actually DON'T, unless they are in the service of a peace-time militia. They should learn their own bill of rights.

Quoted:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

So Clarke, unless you're a member of a well regulated militia you're making some pretty dumb statements too.
All "bare" arms gets you is a sunburn anyway :)

[Cruciform]

Crocdoc,

I've seen what the cane toads and feral cats do to areas in Australia (only in documentaries though, haven't been able to go there yet). It's crazy how they decimate the local wildlife.

Cats are the second most destructive species on earth after man, though it's thanks to us taking them with us where ever we go.

[JeffT]

Jennifer-

VERY nice snakes, those rattelers are beautiful. Especially the little baby, thats an awsome pic. Good luck with breeding them!

Jeff

[ClarkC]

a member of a regulated militia. It's called the NRA. That's why were not in the
shape your in.

[emroul]

Thanks Jeff! :)