Piebald Amazons ...anybody got any by chance?

[JuliusSqueezer]

Well...I've tried everywhere else. Might as well ask here too. Anyone know of anyone who happens to have one or more piebald amazons? I have a female...it's looking horribly like she may be the only one anywhere. If this is the case, it's doomed because I am very anti-inbreeding so don't even bother suggesting such a thing. It doesn't matter what sex...I would be as happy with another female and working off two unrelated lines of hets as I would finding her a mate. If anyone knows or has even heard a rumor that someone else has one or more...please let me know. I know the chance of finding one for sale is slim...but a deal could be easily worked out for swapping het offspring I'm sure.

[BoaBoi]

Just breed back to the mother, inbreeding in snakes doesn't really matter. Don't even argue it.

James~

P.S. If you can't find another anywhere and don't breed back to the mother, that is a seriously bad thing. Those snakes you could produce would matter alot in the herping comunity. Not to mention the money you could make that goes back to the herps.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Yah great. I'd rather never see another one than to be any part of one eyed ******** amazons flooding the market someday. Sorry but I don't agree at all with that.

[JuliusSqueezer]

ok...i can't say the R word...lol..how about drain bammaged?

[marisa]

Nothing like that would happen. They would be perfect in every way.

Once you have established them a generation or two you could easily easily get new blood into the line. Even then you wouldn't have to do this, but you easily could.

Marisa

[JuliusSqueezer]

OK...I'm new to all this...pardon my ignorance. I have only been at this really for 31 years or so. So I guess all the messed up bugeyed leucistic texas rats that act nothing at all like the normals...all the one eyed albino boas...all the burm morphs that are dying off in droves from BD are all my imagination? It's just a white spot a little bigger than a quarter and a few single white scales on an otherwise patternless orange. If it doesn't pan out, the world will be no different. If inbreeding is such an easy option and I'm the oddball...I'm really glad I found her first. Corallus are my favorite...so far there has been noone screwing them up as far as I know...and it's sure not going to be me.

[CDN COLDBLOOD]

The problems you list in other snakes stem from repeated inbreeding attempts to bring out recessive alleles with different phenotypes. Your recessive phenotype is already visible, so you would only have to inbreed your animal for one generation. It is unlikely that there would be any abnormal offspring. The Royal Family inbred for many generations before they noticed any genetic defects such as Hemophelia (Historically).
I guess your 31 years experience didn't teach you much about genetics, just husbandry.

[Siretsap]

What ever you decide to do with the snake, I am sure you will choose the decision you are comfortable with.

Do you have a pic of it? I would love to see some.

Also, I do not like inbreeding either, I have a leucistic gecko I bought that has a dented tail due to this, and I saw a few bearded dragons with those too, and some cornsnakes.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Unfortunatly....inbreeding never ends after one generation. If I produce offspring, I can't keep them all...and anyone purchasing them would likely continue inbreeding. The only option that I'm comfortable with long term is starting with unrelated blood and offering for sale only unrelated pairs. If I can't do that...I don't want to be a part of propegating an ongoing inbreeding frenzy. People are constantly inbreeding animals with no regard to how many times the line was inbred before and how many will be inbred once the offspring are out of their hands. This animal was wildcaught and it is likely that she is a product already of naturally occured inbreeding. It is also possible that any new found piebald will be related too...but I'd rather take that slight chance than to just do it on purpose.

anyway...here she is...I took this photo the day I brought her home. I'm a photographer. So I have a pretty cool studio setup lol.

http://redtailboa.net/gallery/data/9bf31c7ff062936a96d3c8bd1f8f2ff3/438_p7708.jpg

[JuliusSqueezer]

oh...one other thing. If I breed her today...she will have an eight month gestation before any babies are born. It will take any female from that litter 3-4 years ...any male 2-3 years to be breedable and then another 8 months after that...so it's not like I don't have a great deal of time to search for other blood anyway....so why the quick draw to encourage inbreeding right away? What I may do is over a period of a couple of years, breed her twice to 2 different males then outbreed the hets to other unrelated blood a couple of times and then play craps later with the possible hets breeding distant cousins...If I luck up and find a match...then I can outbreed those some more. At any rate...I won't be putting any messed up amazons on the market. I don't expect anything to happen with this project in under 10-15 years....unless I can find some unrelated blood...then maybe in 5or 6 some babies might hit the market.

[dr greenlove]

That is a fine looking critter you have there...very nice.

One thing though, unless i have forgotten much of what i learnt in genetics class at University (many years ago, so i could well be wrong), but it would be impossible to actually know that the patterning on the animal is due to genetic factors..unless and until you breed it with a suitable mate.

And then of course its just luck that the correct genes express themselves and you get the colour you want.

Abnormalities in any animal may be genetic or just due to the environmental conditions it experienced when it was developing.

Either way though, its a nice looking snake.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Dr Greenlove...you are correct. It may not even be genetic. But the bright orange scales surrounding the white is similar to that of some other species that have ended up with this trait. If it proves out, it will be pretty exciting news because I don't know of any other boa of any kind that has popped out any piebalds. I'm not saying none has...I've just never been able to find any mention anywhere. Also...hortulanus genetics are totally unpredictable. You can't even count on producing colors by breeding like animals. A garden phase bred to another garden may still produce colors. 2 colored snakes bred might produce all gardens...Usually they have mixed litters with at least some variety...My last litter was only 5 babies. 3 were halloween with a weird red color bleeding through the background all over...I can't wait to see what they look like as adults. I kinda wish I had kept one. The other two babies were colors...one patterned orange and one almost patternless yellow with a slight splattering of tiny hairlike orange markings on the sides at the rear and a heavily patterend head....So anyway...who know what's up with the genetics of these guys. The paradox trait seemed to prove genetic...Maybe piebald will...maybe it won't. *Shrug* Either way, I'm happy to have her here.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Scar.

[JuliusSqueezer]

It's not a scar. Notice only individual scales are white and there are other white scales in various other places too. Thank you for your opinion though.

[Beardonicus]

Yeah.....thats definitely not a scar. There is no scale damage or any other sign of scarring.

[JuliusSqueezer]

I asked Ben Siegel, who I consider pretty knowledgeable about amazons about his thoughts. Here ...I'll paste the email...
"Brett
i beleive it is some sort of pied--i have had a good number come in like this, and it is far too common than to be just scarring---usually it is white surrounded by orange, and in very small areas-Ben"

I have to wonder though...with as large of an amazon breeder/dealer as he is, why, if he has had "a good number" he has never bred them and proved it out nor did he mention that he tried and it didn't work out and where are they now? He certainly jumped all over the paradox trait so I know he has at least some interest in proving out some sort of amazon morph...I've been kinda pondering this email for a few months now and scratching my head. But anyway...

[Beardonicus]

Maybe someone was very interested in them, so he sold them? I dunno.

[crucified]

julius... about the no other boas having piebald.. i have seen pics of and heard of piebald rainbow boas.. columbian rainbows i believe...

[JuliusSqueezer]

cool...got a link? I don't doubt it...I've just not been able to find anything.

[Derrick]

hehe maybe he's hording them all which is why you cant find any

[JuliusSqueezer]

LOL...He promised that he isn't... but who knows?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Pied Epicrates??? You mean, like this?:

http://members.shaw.ca/gallerya/4523pied.jpg

[Piers]

a good friend of mine says it takesabout 20 generations of inbreeding snakes before you run into problems. He got up to 16 generations and all the snakes were fine.
Piers

[JuliusSqueezer]

That's pretty cool Jeff...thanks!

Piers..Define fine. I doubt your friend is qualified to run snakey IQ tests, behavior comparisons, or would even know what underlying non-lethal health issues may exist...Snakes dont talk to us and tell us what is wrong and they hide conditions and symptoms well. Mere survival isn't fine. There is still a quality of life factor to consider. And once again...inbreeding any morph does not usually stop when the original breeder says it stops. Offspring that is sold off usually continues to be inbred elsewhere...and the offspring sold off from those places continues to be inbred...each new breeder thinking ..."bah...what's a few generations of inbreeding going to hurt?" anyway...inbreeding isn't even up for discussion. You can believe what you want to about it being "fine" but I have seen way too much evidence otherwise and will never be any part of such a project...By the way...I know a guy who is a raging alcoholic...He drinks like a fish from sun up to sundown everyday. He can not even guess at the last time he was ever sober (at least over 5 years ago...and he drives his car everyday...somehow he has never wrecked. So does this mean that drunk driving is "fine"?

[crucified]

thats the one jeff... :) i have the pic on my comp.. i didnt want to upload it since i forgot where i got it.. and with all the slack ppl have been getting for posting a pic that isnt there own.. i didnt want ppl jumping down my throats...
very cool looking snake i must say..

[alex_33]

Personally I see absolutely no problems with inbreeding, becuase there are some species of reptiles, such as the Komodo Dragons, which are on islands, meaning that every Dragon on that island must be related in some way, becuase no new dragons could come into the gene pool. I believe the problem that we see with deformities today are due to the fact that animals in captivity that are born with physical and genetic deformities where they wouldnt last more then an hour in the wild are kept alive, allowed to grow up and eventually reproduce and make more "deformed" babies, which we also allow to grow into adults and continue to reproduce.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Alex...Just because something happens in nature sometimes does not mean it is what is best for the animals. For all we know, komodo dragons living today are inferior animals to their ancestors. Nature does not always provide the best for it's creatures and shallow genepools have been proven to be the cause of many extinctions and dieoffs.

[Invictus]

For all YOU know, Julius, your animals are inbred. For all you know, any animal you breed them to might have come from the same bloodline as the one you currently own. I could buy a blood python from someone in BC, and another one from someone in Ontario, and not even know that they came from the same bloodline. Even if you have fricken WILD CAUGHT specimens, they could be related too. You don't know.

And you going out saying that you will end up with brain damaged snakes shows your complete lack of understanding with how the genetics work. And you can speculate all you want, the FACT of the matter is, as long as you are not pairing up snakes with weak genes, inbreeding has NO ill effects whatsoever for many, many generations. I'm all for outcrossing wherever possible, don't get me wrong. But to be so militnatly opposed to inbreeding only a single generation, well... you better get ALL of your snakes genetically tested before you breed ANYTHING, because I can almost guarantee you that there are a very limited number of bloodlines for any species in captivity.

Secondly, if what you have is a "piebald", then I have a pied colombian rainbow too. This makes me VERY happy, as she may already be a world record size, or close to it. (She's 5'8", which is at the very least, abnormally large, if not close to a record.) Here's a pic of her missing scales - she has 2 such spots on her body (Look at the mid-section right above the head):

http://www.invictusart.com/images/Galadriel10.jpg

Thing is, I'm pretty sure it's NOT a form of piebaldism, it's just a birth mark kinda deal.

[crucified]

ok ken.. i'll ship you out my male now.. we gotta get some babies and inbreed out that pied.. ;)
hehe
very nice crb :D

[Beardonicus]

Now THAT looks like a scar to me...see how the normal colored scales are raised up around the white ones? Thats what happens with scars......Julius' snake has NO scale damage.....its a pied. That Rainbow has a scar.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Of course animals "CAN" and often "DO" inbreed in the wild...noone has argued that they don't. This is why you will likely live to see the extinction of tigers, cheetahs and many other animals well on the way out....Of course there is a "CHANCE" of accidental inbreeding in captivity even from animals bought in different places...probably especially in Canada where importing them is a great deal more difficult. But how does going ahead and inbreeding because they may have already inbred before make any sense? I don't get that mentality at all. BTW, if you would stop feeding live prey, your rainbow boa wouldn't be missing scales. Also...this thread wasn't meant to be an inbreeding debate...I simply asked if anyone knew of anymore piebald amazons. I'm not on a get rich quick off selling snakes scheme and I can't be convinced to inbreed anything on purpose so why the hostility? So I like diversity in a genepool? woopee...how does that make me a bad person? Have I insulted someone's personal lineage? If so I'm sorry...that wasn't my intentions.

[Jeff_Favelle]

So I like diversity in a genepool? woopee...how does that make me a bad person?


I think you may have a lack of understanding on how genetics actually work. Have you ever wondered why its illegal to keep reptiles/amphibians as pets in Canada? Do you think its because the feds actually listened to the "humane" societies and thinks its immoral to keep them in cages as pets? No, its because of the dangers of a kid catching a frog, keeping it for a year, and then releasing it in another pond. The other pond may very well be inhabited by the same species, but if its far enough away, or has enough barriers between it, the two distinct metapopulation may never come in contact with each other naturally. This is what biologists worry about. Reptiles don't migrate. They live in distinct populations (locales). They don't really stray. They are born, grow up, and breed in the same area, generation after gneration. Its why when you find a cool-looking natural variant, you can go back years later, and depending on the alleles involved, can find similar specimens.

Reptiles are not mammals, so don't use analogies to them. It doesn't apply and is irrelevant. There is no migration. Taking an ATB and breeding it with a new specimen that's from unknown origins or from a different population is a no-no in biological circles. Its the main reason that CB herps will never be used a source for re-introduction to the wild. Mixing distinct populations is worse than inbreeding a line of snakes 10x over, if not more. All that inbreeding does is to line up like alleles. That's a good thing, because if the population is strong to begin with, it will stay that way, not to mention it will keep all the genes necessary to exploit its micro-niches better than any other possible substitute. Mix in new genes, even if its from the same species across the river, is NOT a good thing as that locale may have been evolving for a few thousand years under a slightly different set of conditions.

This is well-known in the biological world. I worked under 3 different natural history curators and I once argued (as you are) that inbreeding was bad. I was just a 1st year undergrad at the time, and by the time my work studies were done, I actually understoof how things worked. Reptiles don't migrate. They never will. They live in distinct pockets of the main population. Sometimes the pockets are connected, sometimes they are not. But it is far safer to breed an animal back to its parent, than to guess whether or not two WC animals are from connecting pockets.

And I wouldn't say the one-eyed boas and runty Burms are from inbreeding. I would its the opposite. Outbreeding. Pre-zygotic and post zygotic factors acting on the chromosomes of individuals that were NOT meant to breed together. Its precisely why the old books on Bci boas stated several times that certain bos simply weren't compatible. Those old books were on to something. Unless you can guarantee that your two animals are from the same area, you are doing more harm than good in outbreeding it to a line that does not share gene flow with it. Its called intra-specific hybridization, and, in reptiles, is far worse than breeding related individuals. If that wasn't the case, then reptiles would have died out a long time ago, because that's how it happens in the wild.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer
BTW, if you would stop feeding live prey, your rainbow boa wouldn't be missing scales.

Whoa whoa WHOA. For starters, I have NEVER fed live prey to ANY boa except for the absolute most picky of kenyan sand boas who would absolutely not take anything else. You have got some nerve making an assumption like that.

Secondly, this particular Colombian Rainbow is NOT missing scales. It may look that way because of the camera, but her white markings (I just found another one on her actually, making it 3 total) are not in any way differently textured than the surrounding scales. They are not indented nor elevated, and actually one of them has half the scale colored and the other half of the scale is white. These are NOT feeding scars. But thank you for being so presumtuous.

Jeff - I'm sorry, but I will never agree that outcrossing the genes is literally detrimental to the reptile, and in fact that is one of the craziest things I've ever heard. There is plenty of evidence that suggests that outcrossing is the ONLY reason why reptiles have survived as long as they have. I'm not saying every single generation without fail should be outcrossed, but after 10 lineages, COME ON... time to diversify the bloodlines. If it's so harmful, why do many breeders now strive to offer unrelated pairs and trios? Suggesting that outcrossing is harmful is even more ridiculous than saying that inbreeding is harmful. As long as you are pairing strong alleles to strong alleles, you will end up with strong offspring.

I'm also not going to say that inbreeding is the reason for one-eyed albino boas or dwarf albino burms, but if you look at the reproduction of snakes that have been inbred up to the 16th generation, they have smaller clutches, more slugs, and smaller babies. This has also been proven time and time again. Once you hit a certain generation, it's time to diversify the genes a little. That's my opinion anyway, and comes from education I've received from people who I consider to be FAR more knowledgeable than me. ;)

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally posted by Invictus

Here's a pic of her missing scales - she has 2 such spots on her body (Look at the mid-section right above the head):

http://www.invictusart.com/images/Galadriel10.jpg

Thing is, I'm pretty sure it's NOT a form of piebaldism, it's just a birth mark kinda deal.

umm I didn't presume anything...You must have mistakingly wrote that the scales were missing...now you say they are in tact. That's cool though ...nice snake.

Jeff? First of all...I wouldn't expect a Canadian to know much about the snake movement down here in warmer climates but I don't know much about moose migration either...but anyway they do move a great deal...not uncommon to move 10 miles or so per summer. And especially snakes like ratsnakes and kingsnakes that will crawl into a roll or bale of hay that may be sold and transported to another farm abroad...I find them way outside their supposed native range...sometimes a state or two over all the time around farms when I'm out herping. Floods will very often move them around a bit too. If inbreeding is so cool, Why does Prince Charles look so goofy?

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh...and this...."Have you ever wondered why its illegal to keep reptiles/amphibians as pets in Canada?" I'll have to say no to that one. I've never even been to Canada...why would I sit around and wonder about such a thing? So...keeping reptiles is illegal in Canada? I wasn't aware of that either. Does this mean you are a criminal?

[tHeGiNo]

I think he might have meant it is illegal to take reptiles/amphibians from the wild and take them in as pets. Also, there are moose in the United States aren't there? :o

[JuliusSqueezer]

"Also, there are moose in the United States aren't there? " Yah in Alaska....My sisters were born there but I have never been there either. There are no moose that I am aware of in Georgia, Texas, California or Tennessee. Those are the only states I have ever lived in.

I think a bigger concern if it's anything like the concerns we have for releasing animals back into the wild...would be that they fear someone will expose a native species to pathenogens from exotic species also kept and then introduce infected wildlife back to the wild. Our wildlife people actually move things around from time to time to broaden the genepools a bit...not try and restrict it....they ust like to call the shots and be in charge.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Suggesting that outcrossing is harmful is even more ridiculous than saying that inbreeding is harmful. As long as you are pairing strong alleles to strong alleles, you will end up with strong offspring.

Ken, I'm sorry you've never heard of pre-zygotic and post-zygotic barriers to intraspecific breeding, but it indeed exists. 1st-year Bio text (Campbell 7th Edition) has a HUGE section on it, and my work study prof specialized in it. Its real and it exists. Whether or not its silly in YOUR mind is irrelevant. Most studied example on it is "lemnic" and "benthic" sticklebacks that are separate as a meta population only by their feeding habit. Its real. Do whatever you want with the information, its irrelevant to me. And I indeed thought the same way you did, until the end of 1st year as an undergrad. Sorry.



I'll have to say no to that one. I've never even been to Canada...why would I sit around and wonder about such a thing? So...keeping reptiles is illegal in Canada? I wasn't aware of that either. Does this mean you are a criminal?

Wasn't just for you, but the entire ssnakess.com board in general. But seeing as you're going to be a smart a$$ about it, I would think anyone above 5 years old would be able to tell that I was referring to native herps and not just any pet snake. But whatever....


I think a bigger concern if it's anything like the concerns we have for releasing animals back into the wild...would be that they fear someone will expose a native species to pathenogens from exotic species also kept and then introduce infected wildlife back to the wild.

Nope, that's not the reason, sorry.



And especially snakes like ratsnakes and kingsnakes that will crawl into a roll or bale of hay that may be sold and transported to another farm abroad...

This is somehow the natural order of things now? Are you kidding me? You are calling snakes hiding in HUMAN bails of hay and being transported by HUMAN trucks as snake migration for breeding purposes? I'm sorry man, I can't continue this discussion. I'm going to go insane trying to get anything across to you.

Best of luck with the ATB. I don't think enough people work with them. I only owned one a LONG time ago, but they are cool snakes. I hope you get out of it what you want.

[anders_240sx]

After reading this enitre post, it seems that everyone seems to be more concerned with proving their points, than taking the time to think about what everyone else had to say. Personally, I feel that both invictus and jeff have good points. The only thing I can say is that I have heard of snake migrations. Obviously not to the extent of mamals and such. As well, select reptile species, such as desert dwelling species and species living in areas that have dry seasons are all known to collect in oasis'. As for refering to bio textbooks. As long as its within a few years old, I would consider it valid. In such sciences like biology, the textbook, and methods changes constantly. 20 years ago, we assumed dinosaurs such as allosaurs and Tyranosaurs walked using their tails as balance. This has now been proven completely false. Thats just my thoughts ...Good luck finding an ATB to breed with

[JuliusSqueezer]

stickleback is a fish, not a reptile. You jumped me for comparing mammals to reptiles and now you want to bring up fish?

Noone said that the migration was for breeding purposes...I just said they get moved around that way and kinda funny how none seem to be sprouting hair or legs from the lack of inbreeding because of this. LOL...Jeff. I have had to argue with a few people before that think inbreeding isn't harmful and I will forever argue that it is....but I have NEVER heard anyone with at least one tooth put his crack pipe down long enough to try and say that inbreeding is the only healthy way to breed and that NOT inbreeding is harmful...I don't think you are going insane...I think you might already be there. Books are great...but the reason they have new editions (like your 7th edition) is because "facts" seem to change as new studies and better data is collected. Or maybe you fell asleep reading a chapter while "The Deliverance" was on TV and your dreams mingled with your reading? Anyway...I had a professor tell our biology class (I guess chemestry wasn't his bag) that if you take away a hydrogen atom from H20 that you get a half a drop of water. I was really hoping he was going for the lame HO joke...but he wasn't. I did learn though fairly early on that college professors and Doctors are sometimes a bit whacked...and the worst part is...they write books.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh...and here is an example of what inbreeding does to snakes. Do a little research on Golden Lancehead vipers found only on the Brazilian island of Queimada Grande where these snakes populate an avg of 1 snake per square meter. It is very probable that we will live to see their extinction despite their thick current population...why? inbreeding. Fewer and fewer snakes are being found without both male and female sex organs and these messed up sexually frustrated snakes aren't breeding.

Also you say if inbreeding was so bad that all reptiles would be extinct? Well obviously they aren't nor do they all inbreed as exclusively as you think....but the fact remains...most species of reptiles that have ever inhabited this planet ARE extinct.

[Invictus]

You still haven't answered the question Jeff, and using fish as an example is not going to further your cause at all. Why is it suddenly becoming so important for breeders to sell unrelated pairs of snakes and lizards if it is in fact HARMFUL (and I'm still snickering over this) to outcross snakes?

[Oliverian]

Well obviously they aren't nor do they all inbreed as exclusively as you think....but the fact remains...most species of reptiles that have ever inhabited this planet ARE extinct.
Yes, but as a direct result from inbreeding? I don't think so. As for the origin of this thread, I actually do think you may have something going for you with the piebald spot. If it does prove genetic, that would be awesome for you. I personally don't understand your reluctance to inbreed for even one generation, but if thats how you feel, its fine by me.

-TammyR

[JuliusSqueezer]

Tammy....there may come a day when I start breeding back distant cousins looking for the gene again if I never find another one to work with. That's as inbred as I will ever be willing to commit to though. I would rather do the outcrossing first and then play craps with the possible hets if it's even indeed genetic rather than to have to go back and do damage control. But like I mentioned earlier....Corallus breeding projects are very slow. You can't fatten them up and breed them in 2 years...Yes she is a breedable adult...but any offspring will still take quite sometime to work up to breeding size so I have time to look. I'm 39 years old now...This can be my little project to keep me busy through my old age that is coming up LOL. Someone else will probably find one first and inbreed out a bunch of one eyed 3 tongued piebalds long before I prove anything anyway...but that's how it goes I suppose.

[Jeff_Favelle]

You still haven't answered the question Jeff,

What exactly IS your question Ken.

And the stickleback reference was for you guys to easily find the pre and post-zygotic articles that abound in the periodical section of ANY major university. Its THE case study that is used to teach 1st year students, as its the easiest to comprehend. I wasn't using fish as an analogy, I was using the FAMOUS case study so it would be easy for you guys to cross reference and try a little bit of higher learning.

Which clearly you aren't interested in, so I won't press it. I just tried to provide a way to quickly find the info I was relating to. You for some reason, thought I was making analogies about fish and reptiles. Unbeknownst to me why.........

[JuliusSqueezer]

My reference to Cheetahs and Tigers was for the same reason Jeff. And the Golden Lanceheads are definatly herp related...please read up on them.

[RevMojo]

So what's wrong with the guy saying he doesn't agree with the practice of inbreeding, and avoiding it as best as possible?

It's late, and maybe I'm reading this wrong...did someone say it was better to inbreed?

[Gregg M]

There is a population of timbers by me......... There are lots of them and new babies every year......... There is not another population for about 80 miles........ I know for a fact that they do not migrate especialy 80 miles........ So inbreeding does happen in wild populations........ In reptiles it is not that big of a deal but like invictus said it is good to mix it up and out cross when it is possible....... Take a look at Tremper albino leos for example........ Every one on the market is related some how........ There are no problems with any of the ones I have seen........ I have been keeping herps for quite some time and have not seen too many deformaties that would not happen in nature....... The differance is these deformaties would make an animale weak in the wild and would be eaten up soon after its exit form the egg or the mother....... Albinos would not last very long in the wild but the market is flooded with them........ I think it is fine but I know I like to mix blood as much as I can........ So with this I am kinda in the middle......... I think it is cool that you do not want to flood the market with a bad gene pool........ If thats how you want to do it that is great........ But at the same time the people that are inbreeding are not doing anything wrong and should be respected for breeding a species....... Good luck in finding another one so you can get your project rolling.....

[Invictus]

Well Jeff, apparently in University, they taught you genetics, and how to be arrogant, but not how to read. I have asked the question directly now twice, but you haven't read it. The question, for the last time:

If outcrossing is in fact HARMFUL to herps, why is it that it has become so important for breeders to offer unrelated pairs of animals?

And don't tell me it's just to help sell them either, or I'll offer up the theory that breeders who insist on inbreeding for 16 generations are just too greedy to buy stock from other breeders to help keep the genetic diversity. Many breeders insist on outcrossing, and no harm has ever come to the offspring as a direct result of outcrossing. However, there is overwhelming evidence that several lineages of inbred reptiles DO start to show weak alleles where once strong ones existed.

Instead of sitting there pulling the "I went to university and I'm smarter than you" garbage, Jeff, why don't you offer up some proof of your point? That's great that you have such "higher knowledge". Why don't you share it with us? I'll see if I can dig up the information I've read from reputable sources that suggest inbreeding past a certain number of generations begins to introduce defects, lower clutch sizes, more slugs per clutch, and defective offspring.

[Beardonicus]

I think one of the main things to consider in all of this is that our knowledge on reptiles and a vast majority of the world's organisms (past AND present) is VERY limited......studies and research on this sort of thing are still in their infancy. We will never know some things because the truth will be shown looooong after we are gone on this planet. Nobidy has all the answers and to some questions there are no answers.

[morph]

Hey Invictus that is the only reason they are offered as unrelated pairs. So that people will buy them.Because as you see in this post some people won't inbreed. The better question is are unrelated actually unrelated. Probably not.

scott

[Invictus]

Hehe... to confuse the issue even further, here's an interesting read:

http://genetics.nbii.gov/population.html

Suggestions of both "inbreeding depression" and "outbreeding depression" would basically indicate that nobody involved in this debate is either right OR wrong - and that as long as you're producing healthy offspring, who gives a $h!t. :D

[joshm]

I think what jeff is saying is that the gene pool will be upset( I'm learning all this crap in school right now) its called gene flow and if new genes come in or out of a population then that gene pool is upset. This all comes from the Hardy-Weinberg principle. If the new genes come in this can cause mutations. It all stems from population equilibrium. If there is a population breeding and going strong then why would you want to upset this.

[ReptiZone]

Ok I am gona try a see if I can say what jeff said but in a simpeler way by also adding my understanding also I could be way off or I can hit this dead on there is on maby's here hope fuly jeff will return and correct me if I truly am totaly wack.

I will start slow by using wild animals as Examples and then encorporat it to or Captive husbandry.


Lets start small and verry universal animal. Garter Snakes *can we get any simpler here lol*
Garters don't migrat but we all know snakes are not comunaty animals so what do they do? They go there seperat ways it is not uncomen to find 25-50 Garters within the same 50 feet but if you think that is the whole polulation are you in for a surprise. there are more around the surounding areas how big is the area go herping and find out your self that is what I did all areas are difrent.
Lets get somthing straight.

Birds Migrate some species of fish Migrate When you leav the continent and return for the sole perpous of reproduction that is Migration If I move to Africa and meet some one and I take a trip to Canada Just so I can mate with her and leave again that is migration If I live in Ottawa and mess with some chick in Toronto that is not Migration That is just plain Dumb but THAT my friends is another debat.

Now that that is coverd A garder snake returning to his place of birth that is mearly 10 mills away is far from Migration.

now we all know that Garter Snakes leave and return for breeding I hope I have not lost anyone along the way now if Generation 1 (Becaus I am a lazy person I will represent it as *G1* how original right)

G1 consists of 1.2 garter snakes they breed and produce offspring female one produces 3.6 and female 2 produces 2.8 now if all the babys return when they are sexualy mature (I am elimanating predators to make this simple so the all make it back to the den safe and sound)

the mateing den now consistis 6.16 that is generation one and 2 togetherwe are not even including the offspring that G1 produced while G2 was reaching maturaty see I am making this verry simple.

so now you have 6.16 now we all know that female snakes want nothing but the best male out there *WHAT Am I saying forget Snakes females as a whole lol* now because we started with 1.2 that means the strongest male in that mateing ball is the father to all the females of both liters do you think they care how old dady is all they care about is the fact that all his parts are in good order and ready to get the job done so now we will say that the G1 male and a G2 female hook up that means the rest are all half brothers and sisters now with only 5 males left the odds are strongly stacked against the fact that bor and sis will not copulate do you think they care.

so just for fun we will say every female there is gravid and I will make it simple they all have 1.3

creating G3. G3 alone consist of 16.48 now when they are ready to breed they will return to the same den why Because they can and why go some where els all the rocking is at that club. so if you combin all 3 genertions you will have a mating ball of 22.64
oce agian they are not pair equaly so ther will be in breading.

Ok enugh Garter snakes the numbers are geting to high now. You are probebly saying BUT Marc an ATB does'nt have a mating ball to return to But now you need to realise how your snake is built to survive.

you will notice that just about any snake with the word Tree in it is relativly short slender and has 4 huge K9 teeth now if you sit back and realise that a ATB is slender for a reason *they don't eat much* Why? they are opertunistic hunters That means they don't hunt or rarely do.
How do they eat bird fly's buy snake see bird snakes strikes hooks bird with K9 teeth and there you have it. *Man If I could catch a Big Mac every few days and had a metabolisem like a snake I would never leave My APT why should I*
When they don't hunt they don't move when they dont move they don't burn of energy verry fats so why should they have to move to find food they can play the waiting game.
Now you are saying well the need to drink have you ever noticed the wicked way the perch them selves on a branch do you realy think the know they look cool. NO! It is another one of there survivle tactics they coile so tight that when it rains the water stays in the coils voila instant drinking water You dont spray your ATB or your ETB just for the sake of doing it or just to put up there humidity it is cause they are so dame lazy that they would rather dehydrate them self then go look for water hey when you are well placed and camouflaged by the tree you are purched in why move and risk geting kiled It will rain sooner or later.

Now That Baby ATB had parents that are probebly living the exat same way as her a couple 100 feet higher in the tree hey if she can di why could they not pull it off mating comes she realises that she was not the only snake perched in the tree bro and sis make there way to find mates Do you realy think they are gona look further the 2 maby 3 trees apart B4 they run into each other why would a ATB that has it's own eco system in it's own tree in the south side of the Amazon rain forest go and look in the north end just to find a New blood line. they are gona serch what they know best the tree they ahve lived in and the serounding trees they have ventured in sooner or later something will turn out. notice a patern Garter snakes stay in the same are we will say 10 mills for fun ATB stays in same area we will say 10 trees for fun. the same effect will hapen sooner or later by the time you reach G3 you have a well established gean pool mother natur kills of the week and keeps the strong to contribute to the gean pool.

SO far so good I think I am on the same track as Jeff.

Now from time to time there is the odd ball that that leavs hs gean pool and travles north all summer and breeding season and just sais scrue this I am not turning back.

Now hear comes your theory of NEW BLOOD now this lone male is about to cotribute to a gean pool that is not of his own and the 2 genetics clash there are serious fire works cause there are totaly difrent and then came the Albino gen Mother Nature had to make this work some how so what does she do se removes to most important aspect of that animals survivle so that it is hunted and killed when the hets produce Albinos the same effect will take place and sooner or later the geen pool will re establish cause the 100% hets will dilute to 50% hets to 25% hets and down and down it goes with every albino being killed to remove the albinisem gen as much as possible cause these ''NEW BLOOD" Animals will just do what comes naturaly eat sleep drink and survive then breed with each other. so that is what I under stood about animals in the wild.

NOW I want to address the fact of all the acusations of inbreeding being the cause of deformaties it is NOT
in breeding that braught the deformaties it was out crosing and creating a "NEW AND COOL MORPH" with mind you is in it's self a deformaty then in breeding to achive nothing but that morph SO wether you out cross a albino to a regular to obtain hets to in breed to get the morph you want is actualy safer cause there is still a strong gen there *THE REGULAR*
Now to out cross a Albino to a unrelated Albino to obtain 100% Albino is actualy worst cause you are not only mixing 2 difrent gen pools witch is a HUGE NO NO cause that is what gave us the weaker gen *ALBINO* but you are also working against mother nature to produce the weaker gen that she labeld for distruction.
NOW go ahead and in breed the weaker gen one to many generations and P!$$ mother nature off royaly she will ensure that the weaker gen be destroyed at first she gave it a sporting chance it could still hide under a rock but now it can not see what will pick it off.

Now invictus has repetably asked:
[QUOTE] If outcrossing is in fact HARMFUL to herps, why is it that it has become so important for breeders to offer unrelated pairs of animals?[QUOTE/]

My quick answer is tha Newbies think that mating with your own mother or sister is Just wrong so they don't want to let there animals do it.

But lets be real If I have a a female Ball python and jeff has a male and you buy from each of us and breed them chances your first litter is not the best thing you will incounter but hold back the best looking best feeders strongest males and best looking and best feeding female and re breed them you have just duplicated nature Now hear is where it gets tricky your first clutch and you keep the best trio you have no even better the best 2.2 you have and you breed them you take babys from female 1 and babys from female 2 and pair them up and sell them as unrelated pairs you just puled the whole over every ones eyes.

for example Chris Marshell is trying to produce Albino dwarf retic's this season *Bob Clark Line* and Chris is in a giving mood I get a male now 2 years later a female goes up for sale In canada the Add reads 2003 adult Albino Dwarf retic Now he could be the pope and thows Retic's came from one of few places Chris Marshell, Bob Clark, we will say N.E.R.D just for fun. The botem line is that morph was first produced by Bob Clark in 199? what ever and every Albino Dwarf Retic floting around is related to the original pair wether you say they are unrelated or not.
The only way you will ever get a fresh Blood in circulatingis one of 2 ways some one catchs a Albino dwarf in the wild witch I doubt that animal was geneticly engenired using time effort sience and luck so to get new Blood Bob Clark would have to redo the X amount of years of breeding to produce the apropriat animals. and to do so he needs to do the X amout of years selecting the 3 animals and ensuring they are compatible.

SO if YOU don't want to in breed cause you say it is harmful cause it causes deformaties then put your Piebald ATB out of it's misary caus Mother nature marked that animal for distruction and that in it's self is a Deformatie.

If not keep it and don't breed it at all cause you will be a contadicting your self cause you will be spreading the deformatie as you would say.

I personaly do not think you have 31 years of experience under your belt I will I will be honest I did work off of what Jeff Favell
put down. But I just maped it all out right in front of your eyes and I have nothing but 21 years old with 12 years of experiences I worked in a Reptile ONLY zoo And Jeff Favelle has forgeten more about Reptiles then I have yet to learn.
As much as I hate to be mean I Know more about this subject then you do Then Jeff will mop the flore with you I honestly think you are the one that skiped a few chapters on gentics.

And with That said Have a bice day I will be waiting for the mods to contact me if they feal I stept too far out of line other wise HAVE A NICE DAY!

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron

Ps. I am verry sorry about my spelling I suck at gramare but I know My Herps.

Thank's alot guys once again I learnt alot today with sSnakeSs.com

[ReptiZone]

Pps. Jeff Favelle If I totaly missed the point and made and @$$ of my self. Plz Pm me the info I would realy like to know where I messed up and correct my mistakes if you see any OTHER then MY english.

[Stav.T]

Jeff,

You just said what i'm saying here in Quebec for years. I'm 100% with you on all that. I though I was the only "freak" saying that ..... It seems we are at least two now ;)

Stav


Reptiles don't migrate. They live in distinct populations (locales). They don't really stray. They are born, grow up, and breed in the same area, generation after gneration. Its why when you find a cool-looking natural variant, you can go back years later, and depending on the alleles involved, can find similar specimens.

Reptiles are not mammals, so don't use analogies to them. It doesn't apply and is irrelevant. There is no migration. Taking an ATB and breeding it with a new specimen that's from unknown origins or from a different population is a no-no in biological circles. Its the main reason that CB herps will never be used a source for re-introduction to the wild. Mixing distinct populations is worse than inbreeding a line of snakes 10x over, if not more. All that inbreeding does is to line up like alleles. That's a good thing, because if the population is strong to begin with, it will stay that way, not to mention it will keep all the genes necessary to exploit its micro-niches better than any other possible substitute. Mix in new genes, even if its from the same species across the river, is NOT a good thing as that locale may have been evolving for a few thousand years under a slightly different set of conditions.


This is well-known in the biological world. I worked under 3 different natural history curators and I once argued (as you are) that inbreeding was bad. I was just a 1st year undergrad at the time, and by the time my work studies were done, I actually understoof how things worked. Reptiles don't migrate. They never will. They live in distinct pockets of the main population. Sometimes the pockets are connected, sometimes they are not. But it is far safer to breed an animal back to its parent, than to guess whether or not two WC animals are from connecting pockets.



And I wouldn't say the one-eyed boas and runty Burms are from inbreeding. I would its the opposite. Outbreeding. Pre-zygotic and post zygotic factors acting on the chromosomes of individuals that were NOT meant to breed together. Its precisely why the old books on Bci boas stated several times that certain bos simply weren't compatible. Those old books were on to something. Unless you can guarantee that your two animals are from the same area, you are doing more harm than good in outbreeding it to a line that does not share gene flow with it. Its called intra-specific hybridization, and, in reptiles, is far worse than breeding related individuals. If that wasn't the case, then reptiles would have died out a long time ago, because that's how it happens in the wild.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Ok...so canadian gartersnakes are all pretty well inbred....no big surprise there. They are rather weird creatures.

Reptizone...I got lost in the rambling...but I would like to go off topic a bit and clear up a myth about tree boas that even some of the top herpetologists have long believed but don't often enough reason out except for Henderson who pretty much changed everything about what people believed about them by actually going down there and doing field research which included many dissections. Emeralds and Amazons or any other corallus do not eat birds. Maybe once in a lifetime for a very few individuals but bird is a rare treat for them. Snatching birds from midflight has always been the logical explination for their long teeth. This simply isn't so. These snakes are extremely nocturnal and don't get awakened during the day very easily...any bird flying by when they are awake would likely be an owl or something...and the owl of course would be far more likely to eat the snake. The huge heat pits would be of little or no use in detecting a flyby anyway. Henderson found that their diet in the wild usually consists of small lizards as neos and then rice rats as adults. Rice rats are an arboreal rat that shares their range. Yes they are ambush hunters and emeralds don't move around a whole lot...but Amazons do move a great deal more and are by no definition the sedentary lazy slobs their emerald kin are (no offense meant... I love and keep emeralds too)...their slender bodies and lightning fast speed allow them to glide easily through the trees and anyone who has ever had an amazon come out of the cage on them and had to chase them down and untangle them from whatever they have gotten into can probably understand this easily. The large teeth by the way are there to help them secure prey and then dangle from the trees upside down and walk it up and into their mouth. It is important that they don't drop it because feeding ops aren't an everyday thing and wasted energy from failed feeding attempts could prove disasterous for some of them. His studies also fixed a husbandry problem that for the early years kept people from keeping them alive very long. It's easy to assume...ok it's 90 degrees in the shade in south america...so they must need those temps. But by climbing into the trees, Henderson found that they would find a place and perch where the cool breeze and rising moisture from the ground created a very humid but cool range of between the upper 70s and lower 80s. So until that was known, people were simply overheating their tree boas.

back on topic. ok...fair enough...if I ever decide to keep a mating ball of Canadian gartersnakes, I will let them do their thing. But snakes that never brumate or den or in anyway feel a need to huddle for the cooler months (anything tropical) especially...anything living in a vast jungle will pan out and keep panning out and these genepools are not naturally very shallow and so I do not wish to stomp out any water from it.

[JuliusSqueezer]

"I personaly do not think you have 31 years of experience under your belt I will I will be honest I did work off of what Jeff Favell
put down. But I just maped it all out right in front of your eyes and I have nothing but 21 years old with 12 years of experiences I worked in a Reptile ONLY zoo And Jeff Favelle has forgeten more about Reptiles then I have yet to learn.
As much as I hate to be mean I Know more about this subject then you do Then Jeff will mop the flore with you I honestly think you are the one that skiped a few chapters on gentics."

Im 39...I caught my first snake when I was 8. 39-8=31. It was an eastern kingsnake about 2 feet long captured under a piece of pine bark in my back yard where I was looking for toads in Douglasville Georgia. I proudly carried it inside and made a pet out of it and began my fascination for snakes and started reading all I could find about them at that point and have never let up...and have never not had snakes since. Now I keep everything from large pythons to a tiny little hatchling cornsnake ...to a fairly nice corallus collection to 11 total venomous. I live and have always lived where there were vast populations of reptiles to study in the wild. I'm sorry but I will put those years of real experience against any icebound canadian's limited field opertunities.

[anders_240sx]

"I live and have always lived where there were vast populations of reptiles to study in the wild. I'm sorry but I will put those years of real experience against any icebound canadian's limited field opertunities."

Dont tell me your starting an anti-canadian thread now...
Yeah your species diversity maybe higher, but you running around Atlanta (whitest town in USA), catching snakes proves nothing about field experience. So you know how to catch some snakes...I could say the same thing about myself in the summer here in "Icebound" Ontario. Another American needs to do a little more research about their northern neighbour. Perhaps I will make a trip down there so you can show me your "real experience"... Just please refram from wearing the typical trash t -shirts that say "MADE IN AMERICA", or "God dont make no trash". Speaking of Atlanta.. whens the next "Light Up Atlanta" going to happen?.. for those that dont know what that is... its when the entire city gathers in the downtown district at night... they have a countdown ... then they turn on all the buildings lights back on .... WHAT A CHEAP A$$ FIRECRACKER DISPLAY ... ALL THOSE MAGNIFICANT FLOURESCENTS ...WHOO HOO ... I guess when thats the highlight of the year ....snake wrangling is the only other thing to do .... I would have had to say all that ... but once you said "icebound canadian's" you were asking for it .... (thanks to David Cross)

[Tim_Cranwill]

<i>"I'm sorry but I will put those years of real experience against any icebound canadian's limited field opertunities."</i>

One of the more arrogant and ignorant comments made on this site in the recent history. Get a life, man…. And you misspelled opportunities, chump.

It always amazes me when people brag about the area they live in. What did YOU do to make your area so good? What???? NOTHING. Try to keep this discussion intelligent and maybe we can all learn something. And save your ignorant comments for your family dinners.

[Nett]

Sorry double post :rolleyes:

[Nett]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer

Reptizone...I got lost in the rambling...but I would like to go off topic a bit and clear up a myth about tree boas that even some of the top herpetologists have long believed but don't often enough reason out except for Henderson who pretty much changed everything about what people believed about them by actually going down there and doing field research which included many dissections. Emeralds and Amazons or any other corallus do not eat birds. Maybe once in a lifetime for a very few individuals but bird is a rare treat for them. Snatching birds from midflight has always been the logical explination for their long teeth. This simply isn't so. These snakes are extremely nocturnal and don't get awakened during the day very easily...any bird flying by when they are awake would likely be an owl or something...and the owl of course would be far more likely to eat the snake. The huge heat pits would be of little or no use in detecting a flyby anyway. Henderson found that their diet in the wild usually consists of small lizards as neos and then rice rats as adults. Rice rats are an arboreal rat that shares their range. Yes they are ambush hunters and emeralds don't move around a whole lot...but Amazons do move a great deal more and are by no definition the sedentary lazy slobs their emerald kin are (no offense meant... I love and keep emeralds too)...their slender bodies and lightning fast speed allow them to glide easily through the trees and anyone who has ever had an amazon come out of the cage on them and had to chase them down and untangle them from whatever they have gotten into can probably understand this easily. The large teeth by the way are there to help them secure prey and then dangle from the trees upside down and walk it up and into their mouth. It is important that they don't drop it because feeding ops aren't an everyday thing and wasted energy from failed feeding attempts could prove disasterous for some of them. His studies also fixed a husbandry problem that for the early years kept people from keeping them alive very long. It's easy to assume...ok it's 90 degrees in the shade in south america...so they must need those temps. But by climbing into the trees, Henderson found that they would find a place and perch where the cool breeze and rising moisture from the ground created a very humid but cool range of between the upper 70s and lower 80s. So until that was known, people were simply overheating their tree boas.

QUOTE]


Thanks ........I was gonna correct ......But now I dont have too ;)

As for the inbreeding , out breeding thing ..........I do both .......And I see no problem with doing either .........I line breed for 3 generations then I out breed .... I have seen several problems with only line breeding ... cuz in most cases u are working with a weaker gene... like with morphs... But I have also seen problems with out breeding cuz u can bring in a weaker gene into ur strong breeding group ........I think u take ur chances no matter what u do ........
Now the main reason I offer unrealted pairs is cuz people dont like the thought of line breeding and dont know all the ideals behind it .......So yes to sell my babies I do offer unrelated pairs ......I do this to try and please all my clients.... not to keep the gene pool diverse,if thats even possible ..........

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well Jeff, apparently in University, they taught you genetics, and how to be arrogant, but not how to read. I have asked the question directly now twice, but you haven't read it. The question, for the last time:

If outcrossing is in fact HARMFUL to herps, why is it that it has become so important for breeders to offer unrelated pairs of animals?


I thought the answer was fairly obvious before, but seeing as the BREEDERS here actually told you why, the obviousness of it now is quite overwhelming. Its staggering that you couldn't have figured it out though. Unless it was just to argue.

Reptizone, great post. That was amazing.

[Invictus]

The point I was making Jeff, and the point that apprently YOU missed which Annette has put in simpler terms, is that the potential is EQUAL for introducing bad alleles with both line breeding and outcrossing. The difference I see is this - if you line breed a weak homozygous allele, you are guaranteed to produce that trait in the offspring, whereas if a weak allele is introduced heterozygously, it will NEVER show itself unless paired with the same heterozygous allele from another bloodline. The odds of this are exceptionally low. THIS is why genetic diversity is encouraged - because the heterozygous "weak" allele could very well be bred entirely out of the bloodline, whereas line breeding is 100% guaranteed to produce the weakness in the animal.

But my stance is still the same - line breeding is ok for a few generations. I plan to do it myself with a couple of specimens I have that I think are definitely the creme de la creme. If it works and I then F3 the offspring to create the best pattern I possibly can, that's IT. Time to outcross.

Do you see my point now Jeff, and why I believe it's silly to say that outcrossing is even more dangerous than line breeding? At worst, it's equal. At best, it's a way to completely eliminate a weak heterozygous allele from a gene pool.

[Stav.T]

In other words to make it plain simple.....

There's nothing to be affraid with inbreeding.

The only problem inbreeding has its:

When there is "defec" genes that are present in a line that are not wanted.....

Like deformities or other unwanted genes. If the line dosent have any "bad" genes in it there's no problem with inbreeding. If they are present in their genetics , well they gonna show up oneday or another.....

Stav

[tHeGiNo]

**EDIT**
Sorry, double post.

[tHeGiNo]

Wow, all I have to say is holy @#$% ! That is a lot of info, I can't wait for University biology! A lot of interesting points were made here, I can say I learned a lot!

[JuliusSqueezer]

OK...first of all...my intentions weren't to trash Canada or Canadians. I just found it kinda funny that South American Tree Boas were being compared to Canadian Gartersnake breeding balls. Apparently someone up there thinks that the whole world is Canada. It's very different even just down here in Georgia. I can go out and catch snakes here all but a couple of months of the year and by just driving south a few hours can herp year around for a multitude of species. I can't however experience some of the many wonderful things you guys get to enjoy...like Ice fishing. If I walk onto a frozen lake here...I will fall through. Our snakes don't hang around their holes here ...they move. In South America and other places along the Equator...they move even more and never feel a need to huddle back together for any seasonal freeze...You simply cannot compare and it is likely that this free range and vast range that these snakes enjoy is why the variety of species has become so diverse. Noone can know what the gartersnakes in Canada were like a million years ago...perhaps many different types existed that died off due to inbreeding depression and the ones you have now are short lived. Noone knows. Snakes don't leave enough fossil evidence behind to get an accurate study so everything is guessed.

One thing that needs to be understood about natural inbreeding too is that it isn't just parents and offspring or siblings....it is a mix of sometimes one of these..sometimes half siblings...sometimes cousins...sometimes an outsider...sometimes a half cousin...sometimes a grandparent...sometimes a great great uncle...or half uncle...many being half related and half new blood..YES new blood does occasionally come into play now and then in most places...at any rate...they don't mate for life and diversity even in most isolated highly inbred locales can come from mating with other partners related in different ways or not on occasion not related at all...and yes, the weak ones usually die off quickly before they are old enough to breed...In captivity, breeding methods are too often methodical and repetitious....breeding back the same way over and over again.

Outbreeding depression? bah...I suppose a bad gene can come from anywhere at anytime. I wouldn't blame this on outbreeding though...just a bad apple got in somehow....I doubt this is a very widespread problem. Bringing animals from different areas like...Suriname boas and Colombian boas together and breeding them...I can see where this may cause a problem...I've never heard of anything specific other than undesirable mutt babies...but I can see where a possibilty of immunity differences might come into play from introducing pathenogens that one may have an immunity to and another may not. But I don't see where the genetics would be a factor unless one just happened to have a deformity...in which case it would spread the same thing with it's own kind just as easily.

BTW...Why are so many Canadians so defensive of Americans saying anything about Canada? I'm not going to get in an uproar over the American cracks...I was born here and live here because I don't feel any need to move. I'm content as I'm sure you guys are. I can't stand our current president but he will go away soon and someother shady politician will take over...Congress runs most of everything anyway...just like you guys aren't exactly bowing to the Queen of England even though she is convinced you are. I do have to ask though...please come get that Celine chick and take her back home. She isn't welcome here. Oh...btw...I don't live in the city of Atlanta...I live in the burbs. We have quite a lot of woods and farmland around and I don't have to flip BMWs to look for ratsnakes and copperheads....and I must have missed the lights on thing. Did they really do that here? lol..i never even heard about it other than some spam junk mail I figured was just that...spam junkmail. Atlanta is weird...noone here is from here. and it's the whitest place on the planet? what's that supposed to mean? It's obvious you have never been here. I'm white...yah so?....but I'm a minority here....again...so? I'm not inbred though YaY Me!

[morph]

Guess what never been ice fishing we don't get ice here it doesn't get cold enough. Oh I forgot too mention I used too live i an igloo but it melted with this global warming thing so now I just live in a regular old house.


Not positive but I think I'm inbred.
Scott

[JuliusSqueezer]

bummer about the igloo eh?

[BWSmith]

I can't resist replying (plus I want the email notification since everytime I come back there is another page :D )

This is not directed at anyone in particular. But I feel it is relevant to certaina spects of this thread. Academia. Uggh. I have had my share of higher education and am even going back :eek: I have come to the conclusion that higher education teaches 3 things:
1. How to research and site other people's work and write a paper
2. How to think like they do
3. How to have a supremacist attitude

Now there is of course a great deal of knowledge to be had, but it is not all there. There are so many that think that a piece of paper is a gauge of knowledge. It is proof that you studied, nothing more. With the desire, you can get the same education from the Library for free and focus it to learn about EXACTLY what interests you. Unfortunately, a degree is almost a requirement in society today. If I had my degree, I would be in Guam right now running the Brown Treesnake program. The USGS asked me to send a resume. Over 50 people applied and it was between myself one other person (who had a degree, but no experience). They told me that they were forced to go with someone far less qualified than me because I lacked it. But then I would be married to a wonderful woman right now. So it all works out. That illustrates how a degree is often needed. But it is not all that is needed. You gain very little experience in college. Field work has been all but eliminated form many biology tracks. So that means that you are relying on other people's experience for your knowledge. That is the way of higher education. Much of the problem is that people go from high school to college. In order to see academia for what it is, you have to live in the real world, get some experience, and discover yourself. Otherwise they will brainwash you like they do to most. I could always tell which professors people had by the dribble coming out of their mouth when they thought that they were being free thinkers, but really just regurgitating what the almighty prof's beliefs are. Go with a clear definition of self and you may keep your individuality in tact. And, I am sorry, but I have not met anyone who had defined themselves right out of High School. It takes life to do that. And school, at any level, is not life.

Higher education can give you a basic knowledge. You may think it is advanced, but it is not. Only experience can give you that. A good combination is the key. Working with animals both in captivity and in the wild is invaluable to knowledge. I can read in a book about snakebite, but that does not compare to the knowledge I gain sitting bedside to a young man bitten by an Eastern Diamondback. I can read about the odd feeding habits of Cottonmouths, but until you see one trying to scrape a dead frog off the road, it is only a vague idea. I can read about Alligators, but nothing compares to being in the middle of a swamp surrounded by baby gators crying is the darkness and knowing mom is around somewhere. Formal education only holds so much weight. Let's face it, it basically just reading books. I had someone argue recently that higher education teaches how to think. I will agree that it does teach you how to think. It teaches you how to think just like everyone else there. It amuses me when those in college think that are so different and idealistic. But so many strive to be different, that all end up the same.

I would rather take Julius's 31 years of experience over a 4 year degree any day. But I prefer to have my measly 12 years of experience and soon to have a degree as well. The degree is nothing more than a piece of paper so that I might one day get to apply my knowledge outside of my own business.

Now I am not saying that higher education is bad. I am just saying that having a degree does not make anyone an expert. And I take most things stated by those flaunting a degree with a grain of salt and a chuckle. Let’s face it. The books are written by profs because they HAVE to be published to keep tenure. Just look at taxonomy papers.

Herpetology is poorly researched field. We are in our infancy. We know more about Polar Bears than Copperheads. And much of the research that has come out is because academia has stood on the shoulders of the herp community. We state anecdotal evidence of some behavior, function, or general quirk and it ends up a thesis.

Some may view me as a hypocrite for criticizing higher education, when I am going finish out the last few classes for a degree of my very own. But as I said, it is becoming more necessary. And there is nothing wrong with education, everyone should be a lifetime learner. But I feel that I have the experience to apply the knowledge and self-awareness to not be another college clone or supremacist because I am there.

What am I getting at? I don’t have a clue :D Just a rant that I have been saving up. And of course there are always exceptions to the rule. After all Bryan Frye is engulfed in academia, but I consider him to be a great asset to the herp community.

What was this thread about? Oh yeah......... nope Julius, have not seen another one.

Definitely a pied, definitely not scarring. I have seen this particular animal twice, once at the original dealer.

Atlanta is the whitest city? I have no clue where that came from, but we have a higher African American population than Detroit.

“but seeing as the BREEDERS here actually told you why”
I will agree with Jeff that I don’t buy what breeders say about anything that could be detrimental like genetics. After all Bob Clark denies that BD even exists.

I do want to ask a quick question to Jeff or anyone that thinks inbreeding is actually beneficial. How could it be beneficial to breed one of the many one eyed albino boas to one of its siblings that carries the same genes?

The problem that I see with many of the pro-inbreeding arguments is that it is based on studies on wild populations. This is a different ball game. Some may be WC, but they are no longer in the wild. Has there been a study done on the effects of inbreeding and outbreeding in captive population? I am not aware of any, but I would love to see one. So far all that I have seen is a truckload of anecdotal information pointing the finger at irresponsible inbreeding for many problems. I am sure that there is SOME relevance to comparing information about wild populations (such as husbandry), but one cannot base everything on it. After all, kingsnakes stop feeding and brumate in the winter when in the wild. That is not the case in captivity if the keeper does not wish (at least with CB). Keep the conditions constant, and that king will tear up mice all year long. Just an example of differences we must take into account when comparing research based on wild populations to captive populations.

I am (obviously) opposed to purposely inbreeding as well. Basically, you never know the lineage of your animal fully, so there is always a chance. But we can make an effort not to. It is not that hard. It is just easier to get a pair of related hets, etc. People just want a quick turn around on their “investment”. People argue “but we have to linebreed to see if the trait is genetic”. Sorry, but who gives a crap. I enjoy the occasional oddball pattern or color. I have a soft spot for solid black or solid white snakes. I would certainly accept one if it was given to me. Someone drops me off a Snow Boa and I would breed it to a normal and offer the hets in singles. I don’t necessarily disagree with morphs, I have a problem with the excessive and irresponsible linebreeding often used to achieve them.

“There's nothing to be affraid with inbreeding. The only problem inbreeding has its: When there is "defec" genes that are present in a line that are not wanted.....”

The problem is that we may not know they are there yet or the breeder is too greedy to care and breeds it anyway. I have seen ads for one eyed albino boa breeders.

“I would think anyone above 5 years old would be able to tell that I was referring to native herps and not just any pet snake. But whatever....”

Wow, you thought wrong. That was very poorly worded. We have read what you SAY not what you MEAN. Big difference between what you said and your intention. Some of us are not up on Canadian laws. I have a hard enough time keeping track of the laws in this state.

Let’s see………. Can I jump around anymore?

Nope, I think I about covered what caught my eye that I could find again LOL

I know I am all over the place. But so is the thread ;)

[Bryce Masuk]

"The problem that I see with many of the pro-inbreeding arguments is that it is based on studies on wild populations"

Exactly

In captivity the weakest are not elimnated unless they are so weak they cant eat or their immune system doesnt work correctly

The weak dont survive and dont breed or whatever they do manage to hatch dies. Sure in the wild there are snakes with weak genes but they cant live forever and the hatched babys will die and the same thing that happens to them also goes for if they produce babys that have weak homo genes.

[RevMojo]

Oh, sure, I'm an hour to late for it to still be MLK day, but in light of the good Doc's holiday...you scholarly fellows remember what city the U.S. civil rights movement was headquartered in? As a former resident of Atlanta, I can vouch for it definitely not being the Whitest town in the U.S. Although a good case could possibly be made for the most Guatemalan or most Cambodian city...

And getting back to the original point of the post...any body else seen one of these? And is it really so wrong to look for an unrelated mate? Or is this just a case of greedy wannabe's hoping to get F2's and start their own legacy?

Aw heck, while I'm at it...what country's ruler is on your money, anyway? (OK, that was cheap, but nothing quite says "We're England's biznitch" like having their Queen on your money)

[Lisa]

One thing about Bryon Fry though, he actually gets to go out in the field and research, you don't get bitten by a sea snake reading other peoples work.

[JuliusSqueezer]

and again...wild inbreeding does not mean constant pairing of siblings or parents and offspringover and over and over. There are other ways to be related and some diversity can be found in a fairly shallow genepool and most genepools aren't as shallow as you think...10 miles range in any direction is a pretty big range and a lot of paths are crossed...and over a period of years...10 miles can turn into hundreds of miles easily..Most snakes are forced to move because food sources would quickly deplete if they didn't. Some are forced to stay put...but not many. Any given female of any given species will likely breed well over a dozen times in her life and they do not "mate for life" with the same partner. With exception to places like the Brazilian Island I mentioned before where all the Golden Lanceheads are...new blood often wonders in from time to time...and again...and I think the most important factor...just because it happens in the wild and just because some species SEEM to show no ill effects...doesn't mean they are (pardon me for stealing a phrase from the US army) ALL that they can be! Maybe Canadian gartersnakes are really meant to be 14 foot moose eating monsters....but all that inbreeding has them dwarfed...far fetched? yah probably but still...It is impossible to say something is perfectly ok without knowing what the options are. And there is noway to know what could have been for them if things were different so I really don't see how using them for an example as pro-inbreeding is even valid. The Golden Lanceheads certainly aren't doing so great. It is dangerous to use nature as an example of how we should keep our pets. Nature can be and very often is very cruel. But by understanding somethings that happen out there in the shrubbery, we can better understand what to do or not to do with them at home. So in many cases it doesn't SEEM to hurt. Does it help? Jeff thinks so...because some book told him to think that way. That's whack. Close the book and look out into the real world and see what's going on. Albino boas aren't being born with missing eyes from outbreeding. First of all...they aren't being outbred enough for that to be the case. They are still hardcore in the thick of inbreeding. Noone feels a need really to inbreed normal boas...so they are extremely outbred...why aren't they being born with missing eyeballs? Why is it the albinos that have such a high mortality rate before the age of 2 years old? Why are so many albino clutches mostly slugs and stillborns? Why is it the burm morphs that are having most of the burm issues now? Why? BECAUSE these animals are in the midst of an inbreeding frenzy. People love to argue that ....well for 16 generations you can inbreed with no problems. Great. Who here is qualified to give a snake an IQ test? Who here has an in with God and can see what a 15th generation snake would have looked and acted like had it not been a product of inbreeding? Who here can say right as that 15th or 16th litter is popping out how many generations of inbreeding occured before you got your mitts on the original animals in your inbreeding stock? Who here takes steps to insure that animals they sell from a 16th generation of inbreeding doesn't get inbred again for another 16 generations by the next irresponsible breeder? Snakes can be born with all sorts of problems that you would never know they had. For one...They don't have other snakes without these problems telling them they are different. Albinos probably don't know they have poor vision and they probably think sunlight is supposed to hurt. They simply don't process thoughts the way we do and they don't know there was an optional way to be born. And ...probably as a survival aid so as not to seem weak to predators...they mask symptoms very well. So any declaration of "healthy" is pretty much just seeing what you want to see and saying what makes you feel better so you can sleep at night.

[BWSmith]

Originally posted by Lisa
One thing about Bryon Fry though, he actually gets to go out in the field and research, you don't get bitten by a sea snake reading other peoples work.

You are right. He has a great combination of Academia, Field Experience and Passion. He is truly an asset to the herp community. Plus, he does not have the supremacist attitude that is so rampant. He is very knowledgeable and will answer any questions you might have, particularly pertaining to his work.

I did not mean to imply that ALL of those with degrees and advanced degrees fall into the generalization. I had one young man learning venomous husbandry under me that will soon be going to Oz to work with Bryan on the Tiger Snake research (if I remember correctly). He had some very good profs that let him get alot of time in the field, I helped gave him a basic understanding of captive maintenance, and there is no end to what Bryan can teach him. He will truly be a contributor to the study of herps one day, and I am proud to have been involved.

I interviewed several universities when i had the stability to go back to school. One stood out above the rest. It is a small local university that deals primarily in technical degrees )architecture, engineering, etc.). The Biology program is only about 2 years old. But the head of the biology dept. impressed me. We talked for over an hour. He is "old school" and a bit put under by the lack of field experience offered students. He told me stories from his college days and I spoke of my personal experience. We really hit it off. It is unusual to find a Prof that respects your current knowledge even though it may not be what the textbook says you should know. He was even calculating when was the soonest I could teach a class LOL. Despite the flattery, it was his outlook on higher education that made me decide to enroll there. Much of the staff there did not go straight from Grad school to teaching. They have real life experience and understand its value. That is why I like it. What that had to do with anything, I have no idea :D


It is too late to think about it anymore ;)

[morph]

Hey revmojo she's our queen too.

[JuliusSqueezer]

heh, you should have dumped tea in your harbor too :)

Hey Brian....great points...You might want to correct this particular typo though before your wife reads it: LOL

" But then I would be married to a wonderful woman right now. So it all works out. " I think you meant "wouldn't" right?

[BWSmith]

OOPS!!!! LOL

Luckily she doesn't come here.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I do want to ask a quick question to Jeff or anyone that thinks inbreeding is actually beneficial. How could it be beneficial to breed one of the many one eyed albino boas to one of its siblings that carries the same genes?

I never stated it was beneficial. Please quote where I did. I was playing Devil's Advocate to someone who didn't have a clue and was stating that inbreeding in reptiles was an abomination and was comparing it to Cheetahs (which is the result of a bottleneck, not inbreeding) and Prince Charles. Of course I'm going to go against that. Any day of the week. But I never advocated inbreeding. All I stated was that in the REAL WORLD, reptiles live in pocket communities (doesn't have to be social) and gene flow is kept to a minimum. That's all.

I also stated that I don't believe the one-eyed boas to be a result of inbreeding, but rather a result of well-documented incompatability with a snake that has a HUGE geographical range. Different selective pressures and slightly different micro-climes, etc etc have resulted in boas of the same species being slightly different. You can see this on the surface (don't tell me a Mexican Bci looks the same as a Colombian or the same as a Hog). But what lies beneath might also be a pre-zygotic or post-zygotic mechanism to keep these animals apart to facilitate speciation (evolution). That is a fact of the real world. But does not mean I advocate inbreeding over outbreeding. I just stated that in terms of the scientific community, its worse to take animals from a different metapopulation and place them or breed them with another when dealing with reptiles.

And if 31 years of herping gives that kind of narrow-mindedness, then I hope its a reflection of the individual, and not the hobby. Stating that I couldn't know anything about wild snakes because the lakes are frozen here for 4 months of the year? Ok then. I live in a mediterranean climate. I see snow like once every 5-7 years. Not to mention I've gone to S. America. I've gone herping through the Baja Cali, Arizona, Washington, Oregon, Montana. Have you been to Cuba? Oh that's right, you're not allowed to go. I went for a month looking for herps. Don't tell anyone on this board that they can't know very much about wild herping because they live in Canada. That's garbage.



Nature can be and very often is very cruel. But by understanding somethings that happen out there in the shrubbery, we can better understand what to do or not to do with them at home. So in many cases it doesn't SEEM to hurt. Does it help? Jeff thinks so...because some book told him to think that way. That's whack. Close the book and look out into the real world and see what's going on. Albino boas aren't being born with missing eyes from outbreeding.

Not sure what book you want me to close, but I've been NOT going to school for like 7 years now and been breeding for about 11, and travelled pretty much everywhere except Africa and Australia. I would say that my nose has been firmly OUT of the books for quite sometime, as my main concern is producing a couple hunderd animals a year. But thank you for yet another narrow-minded assumption. I guess one cannot refer to academia or post secondary studies without being labelled as a book work or not having real world experience. Must be some kind of wild world you live in man.

Albino boas aren't being born with missing eyes from outbreeding

Prove it. I don't believe any of the statements you have said to be true. Boa imcompatability is real and has existed since people bred them. Its documented in even the most simplest of boa book, dating back 15 years. But then again, if the great Julius Squeezer says so, with 31 years of American herping experience, then it must be true.

[BWSmith]

I never stated it was beneficial. Please quote where I did.
ok. Correct me if I am wrong. But in a nutshell you are saying that outbreeding is bad and inbreeding is the natural way of things.

I realize that you are giving information from studies conducted on wild populations. Are you aware of any studies on the results of inbreeding/outbreeding on captive populations?

I guess one cannot refer to academia or post secondary studies without being labelled as a book work or not having real world experience.

Scientific research and references have their place. But I am an advocate of using 3 things to draw a conclusion: Education, Experience, and good old fashion common sense. I will personally never buy into that inbreeding is preferable and not harmfull. After all, I have been to Alabama :D I would like to see a study from an arbitrary source that analyzes the effects of outbreeding and inbreeding in captive populations of reptiles. particularly one where the inbreeding is geared toward bringing out a recessive trait.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Again you bring up the cheetahs but stand firm behind your fish LOL....go figure. Jeff...You are picking and choosing your battles and evading Everything that proves you wrong. You ask me to prove that one eyed boas are not caused by outcrossing? Kinda hard to prove since noone seems to be outcrossing. Evidence leans way more towards a bad gene hitchhiking a ride with the albino gene since it only seems to be happening within the albino line and not the other normal mutt boas that are as you say, overly outcrossed. I can't think of a boid that is more outcrossed than normal BCIs and I agree for many reasons that producing mutts is irresponsible and undesirable.

I'm narrowminded? You quoted one book. How about the millions of others who link inbreeding to a multitude of problems? Now normally, I don't just go with the popular vote as is obvious from my refusal to inbreed siblings or offspring under any circumstance...but some things are common sense. SOME snakes live in isolated pockets. MOST do not. Amazons CERTAINLY do not. Golden Lanceheads CERTAINLY do and they are DEFINATLY on the way out due to over inbreeding. Commonsense should tell anyone that if a bad "seed" gets in a really shallow genepool that it will quicklly effect the whole population. How can you argue this? And YES...the bad "seed" could very well enter the scene from an outsider but it spreads like wildfire from inbreeding where it would have a far better chance of fizzling out with outcropping and culling or nevre inbreeding to begin with ...A horrible message that is being spread around is that if a one eyed boa is born...that animal should not be bred...THAT ANIMAL? how about the rest of that litter likely carrying that gene? How about the parents NOT being bred again? I call that ethics and common sense...you can call it narrowminded if you want. I really don't care what you think...I'm just a bit concerned about the BS you spread. Noone ever said that outcropping meant to cross Hoggs and Colombians or Mexicans ... That was just another smokescreen to cover your own BS....Now then...the last thing I have to say about this unless Jeffy proves anything he says which he can't because it's total BS...except of course with some obscure little fish somewhere but definatly not with cheetahs LOL...is that I truely could care less what you (Jeff) want me to prove. I didn't come here looking for this idiotic debate. Inbreeding is bad. Anyone that thinks otherwise should have Children's Services watching them closely if they have kids. I came here to ask if anyone else has seen any anywhere. I assume by now that noone here has. It's my snake. I'll make the decisions on her breeding partners...or actually she will. I just get to pick who gets to visit her cage. :P

oh..LOL herping in Cuba huh? was that the story you had prepared incase you got caught in the poppy fields? LOL...Frankly, I would be more impressed had you claimed to have never been anywhere. The fact that you have been to South America and still believe that Amazons in the wild are isolated, inbred and den up together in the winter disturbs me greatly. In reality, they seldom breed. Once every 2 years maybe once reaching sexual maturity ...Sexual maturity comes a bit later with them than most other species. So by the time they are old enough, they are likely long gone from their relatives in most cases...they breed...8 months later they drop usually very small litters of 5-12 babies and then move on. These snakes are extremely active animals at night and do not just pick a tree and stay there forever. So whatever you want to argue about fish and cheetahs does not make Amazons a naturally shallow genepool inflicted animal. Prove it? I don't have to. I'm the only person that has to do right by this particular animal. You go to SA and get thousands of DNA samples and prove me wrong if you want to have a great time wasting your time and making a fool, of yourself.

[ReptiZone]

JuliusSqueezer,

you are the bigest joke I have to see pear on this site.
Yoau are arguing with a guy that has a univesaty level Education
At keast 7 year of field work 11+ years of Breeding select sepcies of Boids who Knows when he started liking herps and gained his roots for some one to go to univesaty about these animals they prety much slept with a snake like teady bear since B4 they could walk. He has just about travled the world of Exotic natural habitats.

He has given verry valuble information in this thread witch I have not seen done in a long time.

And yet you want HIM to Prove you wrong by doign a extensive reserch In South America just to prouve that in the wild it is not uncomen to see more the 6 ATB sharing one small handfull of trees during the life time and in breeding.

he is bassing if Fact's on places he has been, studied and reserched the natural Habitat in.

And YOU what are you doing you are regurging info you read in books and seen on the net. And you are trying to put up a fight. Man you are not equiped for this debat in any way.

What you just did was step in the ring with Mike tyson because you thaught you knew how to box.

you want Jeff to pack up and leave the country and do a reserche you are to lazy to do your self.

How about you fund the reserch and I will go with him to keep him motivated for free.

Oh and By The way a person that would set them selves out to preform such a study would be far from waisting their time and making a fool of them selves they would be contributing to this wonderfull hobby and creating a herpethological back round if not a career for them selves.

Oh and one last thing you say tha we as Canadians can not know any thing about wild exotic animals because of our Ice fishing pass-times when you your self have not even left your country. for any extra Field herping and FYI we do have some Crotalus species in Canada so you re not the only ones with Hot's so stop fealing so special.

[Beardonicus]

Just a suggestion ReptiZone.....perhaps you should run a spellcheck or grammarcheck on your posts before you criticize someone else.

[JuliusSqueezer]

LOL...Beard

First of all...I went to college too...I WAS formally educated.

Second of all...I too have left the US on occasion and have done a lot of tin flipping in my life all over the place. Haven't made it down herping in SA yet but maybe someday when it's a bit safer, I will go. Right now, the places I'm interested are not a place for any American to be :) I like herping...but I don't want to get shot while doing it.

Third...I don't regurge info from books. Bob's big book of Purdy snakes doesn't do it for me...how about you? I think I'm experienced enough to make a statement now and then about something I know about in detail.

I have been an avid field herper for over 30 years. I have done rescue/rehab work for over 20 years. I have kept, treated, bred on occasion thousands of animals. Breeding hasn't always been my bag....too many rescue cases to deal with and field herping has always been my almost year around weekend getaway excuse. But none of this or what Jeffy has done changes anything nor does it make my or his word any more special. The fact is...in the wild, even in very isolated places, it is rare for any continuous methodical direct inbreeding to occur. MOST reptiles aren't all that isolated anyway. You act like they breed like mice. A snake drops babies...It is YEARS before they are ready to breed with anything. You think Mom is still there waiting for them? Maybe in a Canadian Garterball LOL...and when did I say Icefishing restricts Candian's herping abilities? Please go back and reread what I wrote. I simply stated that I am not trying to pull some macho US is better than Canda crap...I said we have things here you guys don't and you have things there I don't have...You twisted the words yourself. I never meant any such thing.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh...BTW ...Tyson got his A$$ kicked twice by a boy from Atlanta. Great analogy you picked there LOL

[tHeGiNo]

Really, who cares lol.

[BWSmith]

i would like to add one small tidbit about snakes leaving their normal home range. Off the coast of Georgia and South Carolina Eastern Diamondbacks often swim to the outlying islands.

[JuliusSqueezer]

and back

[Dark_Angel_25]

You know what..

This thread was created because Julius wanted to know if anyone had a mate for his snake that's it that's all.

He didn't ask to start a debate on inbreeding, or outbreeding, hell he didn't even want to talk about cheetahs and fish... he JUST wanted to know if someone had a mate for his baby...

Why is it that such drama has to come from these things. Ok, so he doesn't belive in inbreeding, you know what, it is his perogative... it is his choice and he doesn't want to do it, point finale. Why harp on the bloody subject?

As far as I have noticed with Jeff's posts, most are good, but a lot of times IN MY OPINION, I find that anyone who doesn't agree with him gets flamed by other posters, and this to me is stupid and infantile. No 2 people are ever going to agree on everything. It is statistically impossible... want me to prove it? Just look at couples who have been married for any number of years.

So lets just drop all this. neither side is going to change their views, and really who cares, you are all going to do what you want in the end anyway. just let it be...

And Julius, sorry, but I don't know anyone who can help you with your search.. sorry....

just my $0.02.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tracy

[morph]

Hey beardonicus can you write in french? If not then lay off his english.

[MouseKilla]

LOL! I wonder if it's harder to be against inbreeding on this site or in the southern states... haha

Anyway, all cheap shots aside I think this whole debate is foolish as hell. I mean we were originally talking about captive animals right? So why all this conversation discussing what seems to be the morality of inbreeding or outbreeding? If these are captive species then who cares what an individual breeder or keeper does with them? If I want to try to breed my boa to a cat it's none of anyone else's damn business, it's not a moral question, it's a question of ownership (I know none of you want to be a "guardian" do ya? lol!).

If we were talking about manipulating wild populations I may be interested in a right and wrong type of argument but any captive species is already "unnatural" so who give's a rat's ***? What is of our concern is the quality of our animals, regardless of their lineage. So long as my animals look good, grow well and reproduce in satisfactory numbers (satisfactory to me is all that matters) I'm not concerned about whether they are inbred or outbred or whole wheat bred. Let's all see if we can get a grip.

P.S. Maybe no one told you Yanks but Celine was the first in a series of attacks being launched by a secret Canadian militia group. We... I mean THEY, are prepared to send Brian Adams down there next if you guys don't stop driving up the cost of our pot with your ridiculous drug war. If that doesn't work Knickle Back and Avril Levigne are next. Surrender now! Resistance is futile!

[asphyxia]

Ahh, yes Tracy, but It is both informative and amusing

Cheers
Brian

[JuliusSqueezer]

LOL...actually, our most inbred state per capita isn't in the south. Pennsylvania has us all beat...Thanks to the Amish.

You can keep all of those Mouse Killa LOL...We would like to keep Sarrah McLachlin though, if that's ok. She's a pretty cool chick.

[Invictus]

Yeah well... you can't have Sarah! She's ours, and we won't part with her! lol

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh come on...she's a misplaced Irish chick anyway and you know it!

[Beardonicus]

Originally posted by morph
Hey beardonicus can you write in french? If not then lay off his english.

No, I can't.....and no I won't.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Third...I don't regurge info from books. Bob's big book of Purdy snakes doesn't do it for me...how about you? I think I'm experienced enough to make a statement now and then about something I know about in detail.


You don't regurge from books, you haven't BEEN to S. America, so where exactly are you deriving your info on Corallus from ??

My guess would be heresay or opinion. Neither of which has a basis of fact. Therefore the entire debate is moot.

Thanks for coming out. And now let's get back to snakes. This is suddenly become boring. It always does when it strays from actual conversation to mud slinging.

[Jeff_Favelle]

The fact is...in the wild, even in very isolated places, it is rare for any continuous methodical direct inbreeding to occur. MOST reptiles aren't all that isolated anyway. You act like they breed like mice. A snake drops babies...It is YEARS before they are ready to breed with anything.

Are you kidding me? Have you EVER actually learned ANYTHING about recruitment rates or fecundity? That statement was the biggest joke so far in this entire thread. Reptiles are uber-prolific man. Pulse feeding turns into pulse reproduction. Reptiles are kings of that. Please go to ANY field biologist (or even any REAL captive breeder) and tell them that reptiles breed sporadically in the wild. They will drop to their knees in laughter.

As I just did.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Once again, you misunderstand and twist one tiny fragment around to avoid facing anything that shoots your theory down. Tree boas, females anyway (last I checked it still takes 2 to tango) aren't ready to breed for at least a few years...sometimes 4-5 years. Once they do breed there is an 8 month gestation. Some will continue feeding throughout most of the time they are gravid but many will not. In either case a fairly long recoverytime is needed before they breed again. Litters are small compared to other species. Some will be eaten...some will thrive. But don't expect mom or pop to hang around for 5 years waiting on junior to grow up to breed. There is a lot of jungle down there and Amazons are flighty, very active snakes. I have kept, bred and studied corallus for years....This isn't my first corallus experience. You think that's an overwhelming probable that they do lie around sedentary as a rule and just inbreed methodically? Fine...Keep thinking that...It seems odd though that there is so much diversity in hortulanus and any morphism is an extremely rare find if they all lived in little inbreeding colonies...Whoever caught that one albino a couple of years ago should have poked around a little more. According to jeffy, with all the inbreeding going on down there, if there is one there are likely hundreds. WTF does this have to do with me asking if anyone knew about any others that might be around anyway? I'm starting to believe the Mike Tyson theory...not in how much fight you have...but how much sense you make when you attempt to communicate with other humans.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Let me clarify for you so you can untwist a bit....When I say they don't breed that often compared to other species...I mean, you can't compare them to a ratsnake or something that may lay 2-3 clutches in a single summer. More likely one small litter every other year.

[Jeff_Favelle]

You think that's an overwhelming probable that they do lie around sedentary as a rule and just inbreed methodically?

Not sure when I said that, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.




I'm starting to believe the Mike Tyson theory...not in how much fight you have...but how much sense you make when you attempt to communicate with other humans.

This coming from the person who basically alienated an entire country by saying that we know nothing about wild herps because our lakes are frozen? What a crock!

Once they do breed there is an 8 month gestation.

Wonder why gestation would be 8 months whereas every other boa is like 90-105 days. Weird.

[Rob McRobbie]

It seems odd though that there is so much diversity in hortulanus and any morphism is an extremely rare find if they all lived in little inbreeding colonies.

I have to disagree with you there.. A pair of ATBs patterned and/or colored identically will throw a wide variety of offspring.. Some resembling the parents (lets say garden-phase) and others that are colored and so on. To say that the color/pattern morphs are the result of genetic diversity, I would say is false...any other thoughts??

This is a very interesting thread mind you...


Rob

[JuliusSqueezer]

"Wonder why gestation would be 8 months whereas every other boa is like 90-105 days. Weird." AHHH There we have it. You know nothing about corallus. 8 months dude. Let me spell it. Gestation for corallus is EIGHT months.

Rob...morphism that I speak of has nothing to do with the colors. I breed them. Trust me, I know how unpredictable "colors" and "patterns" are. The morphism I am talking about is like....ohhh ...I dunno...piebald maybe? albinism? paradox? I didn't mean for that to be taken as red, yellow, orange, garden, halloween, christmas or whatever...I meant genetic oddities beyond the norm...if you can even call hortulanus genetics anything near normal anyway.

[marisa]

How can you be so rude? He says "Wonder why gestation would be 8 months whereas every other boa is like 90-105 days. Weird.
"

Did it EVER EVER say he even knew what it was in the first place? It CLEARLY says (unless I am reading the wrong language here?) he finds it weird its so long for those when other boas are such shorter gestation periods.

I love this thread and I have read every single word of it, but if the people participating cannot even comprehend messages correctly and communicate then whats the point of debate?

Anyways back to your normal programming. ;p

Marisa

[Jeff_Favelle]

AHHH There we have it. You know nothing about corallus. 8 months dude. Let me spell it. Gestation for corallus is EIGHT months

You mean to tell me that from the time of OVULATION to the time of deposition (A.K.A. GESTATION), you have counted more than 200 days??? Holy frickin' frack! That is very interesting. Very interesting indeed.....

[JuliusSqueezer]

What is weird is someone preaching outbreeding depression about an animal they know little or nothing about let alone any genetic/breeding issue. Outbreeding depression is not the same ballpark as inbreeding depression anyway. Inbreeding depression causes weak, unhealthy, deformed, diseased etc animals....dieoffs, extinction. Outbreeding depression causes some animals to change their breeding behaviour in a way that may make them not compatible mates. In essence, an animal moved from an area that has one climate, elevation, or other factor that might be a determining factor in what time of year a breeding response will occur may not coincide with that of the local wildlife population to the new locale. The only reptile that I know of that has ever had this problem is a sea turtle because you can set your watch by their breeding/laying cycles... I don't remember what kind. Ridleys? There are also cases envolving humans releasing a species into a habitat with what they think is the same species of a certain animal but later find out that although similar the species are not the same and will not breed...and often end up having to compete for food or habitat. At any rate....these are all the problems of the wild...it's a huge problem with Salmon and as Jeff pointed out...with stickleback...same reason....predictable mating cycles...but Amazon tree boas aren't fish...nor are they sea turtles and I have never heard of a single claim of Hortulanus outbreeding depression nor is there that one special day of the year when they all swim uptree to breed...and even if someone happens to dig up a case study of some obscure snake somewhere suffering outbreeding depression...what does it have to do with captive animals? What is a bigger problem? Your pet won't breed with a mate you picked that came from a different side of the mountain? Keep in mind that this is practically if not totally unheard of in snakes. or youre snake has missing eyeballs and crawls in circles chasing it's tail trying to find the dead rat you placed in with it? I just don't understand how someone who has done so much research on a subject can be so blatently out of whack with what is important. There are people here now that trust this guy thinking...oh wow man...Jeff says outbreeding is worse than inbreeding...I better keep on inbreeding. That's just wrong.

[JuliusSqueezer]

ok...from ovulation it's 7 months give or take....If I breed amazons in Feb...I expect to see babies sometime in Oct.

Breeding age for emeralds can be almost obscene...it is not unusual for an emerald female to finally hit sexual maturity and breed at age 10. Amazons generally around 5...gestation is about the same. It's a slow process ...This is why I'm not jumping on any inbreeding plan of any kind...there is no need. I have all the time in the world to find a suitable mate. As a last resort, I will outbreed a few generations BEFORE trying to reintroduce a gene that I'm not even 100% certain is there. Feel my pain? LOL

[Beardonicus]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
You mean to tell me that from the time of OVULATION to the time of deposition (A.K.A. GESTATION), you have counted more than 200 days??? Holy frickin' frack! That is very interesting. Very interesting indeed.....

Its not something that ONLY Julius has counted.....its COMMON knowledge about breeding Corallus.....I suggest you do some research, Jeff. Here is Danny Mendez's article on breeding Corallus......http://www.corallus.com/urbanjungles/breedingcorallus.html

[JuliusSqueezer]

Yah...from Mendez's caresheet....for those who don't care enough to click...
"Based upon personal data and some of that submitted by my colleagues it seems that the average time frame between ovulation and parturition falls within 175-225 days." I think mine ueually fall in the lesser range but it varies quite a bit. I provide pretty good basking areas and a pretty good gradient for gravid females. It's frustrating waiting that long. Especially with all that anticipation of wondering what colors and patterns you will get. If you have low blood pressure and need to raise it considerably....I highly recomend breeding corallus.

[Jeff_Favelle]

What is a bigger problem? Your pet won't breed with a mate you picked that came from a different side of the mountain? Keep in mind that this is practically if not totally unheard of in snakes

Maybe its unheard of to YOU, but that does not make it unheard of. Its well known in boa circles.

There are also cases envolving humans releasing a species into a habitat with what they think is the same species of a certain animal but later find out that although similar the species are not the same and will not breed...and often end up having to compete for food or habitat. At any rate....these are all the problems of the wild...it's a huge problem with Salmon and as Jeff pointed out...with stickleback...

I never said outbreeding depression was a problem with Sticklebacks. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth that I have never said, or leave me out of the discussion completely. I would much appreciate that. The stickleback EXAMPLE was used to show that pre-zygotic factors abound in nature and are sometimes the ROOT cause for speciation. But of course you're probably going to say that evolution doesn't exist and that a supreme being created all the animals etc etc etc... POINT IS: Read what I say if you're going to quote. I never said that, so don't say I did.



Its not something that ONLY Julius has counted.....its COMMON knowledge about breeding Corallus.....I suggest you do some research, Jeff.

I refer you to Marisa's post a few posts down. That is why I asked. Apparently I can't ask without the great Beardonicus chastizing me. No wonder people don't ask.

And 8 months is 240+ days. If the range falls between 175 and 225 days, I would say that 240 is not the norm, and a question precipitated because of that is not unreasonable, is it now? Also, every other boa I've bred has no where near the range for gestation. 105 days POS. I found it strange that ATB's of all boas, had a huge range. Or is pondering out loud not kosher with you Beardonicus? If a group of snakes has a certain aspect of natural history that follow a pattern, and a couple species within that group don't, or follow a drastically different pattern, is it bad to ask why? If so, why is that? I'm curious to know...

[Beardonicus]

Please, Jeff.....you and I both know you're one of the most pompous arrogant people on this site. You weren't "wondering out loud"....you were being a smartass because YOU think you have all the answers. Just because you can spout rhetoric from a book doesn't mean you are a genius. I suggest you educate yourself before you go about chastizing others.

[Beardonicus]

BTW......didn't you get kicked off a site or demoted as a mod because of behavior like this? Being a prick to newbies and such? Refresh my memory......:)

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's the funniest thing I have ever heard, especially coming from you Beardahicusss. One only needs to look back a couple of threads to see YOUR true colours:

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=245473#post245473

The funny thing is, I never bring it to a personal level. I keep it in the discussion. Its only after someone takes a shot at my country or at me personally do I say anything. But you are different completely. Your actions are nothing short of a vendetta. But what do I care? After seeing the advice you give regarding husbandry, and how you treat others, the good that I can extract from you is negligable.

because you can spout rhetoric from a book doesn't mean you are a genius.

Interesting, because I never quoted a single book. YOU did. LOL! If you insist on making yourself look funny, I will indeed continue to laugh.

LOL!

[Jeff_Favelle]

And if you look WAY back to page 3 of this discussion, you'll see that I basically said my piece and wished Julius luck with his ATB and that was it.

I'm sorry man, I can't continue this discussion. I'm going to go insane trying to get anything across to you.

Best of luck with the ATB. I don't think enough people work with them. I only owned one a LONG time ago, but they are cool snakes. I hope you get out of it what you want.


Only after I was dragged back in did I comment. And I would say that someone has a right to comment if he is being misquoted, quoted as saying stuff he DIDN'T, etc etc. So I did. But at least I participated in the discussion, and didn't take one-sentence pot shots at someone. There was at least some CONTRIBUTION, which is what this site is built on. No wonder every post you've had is basically an arguement and like 3 people comment on your animals when you post pics because you've alienated so many people.

Take Invictus for instance. Ken and I argue all the time. But we don't make it personal, and we comment and compliment each other's collection all the time. That's how this site works. You debate things, show pics of wicked animals, and try to progress. At the end of the day, I never have a bad thing to say about Ken, because we simply just debated a topic in which we had different opinions on. We don't take shots at each other, we don't intentionally egg each other on (unless we are just kidding, and its explicitly implied), and we don't hold a grudge. Not you. After talking with you, it feels like I've gone back 20 years in terms of the snake "biz". Bizarre.

I have to be done with this thread. I have a website to FTP and its not going smooth, the database is not updated and I've purchased 21 new animals in like the last 3 weeks. Things are important, and things aren't important. This has become unimportant.

Julius, I still wish you luck with the ATB program, and I'm sorry I couldn't get my point across to you without you getting angry or thinking I never seen a wild snake because my lake was frozen. If you wanna PM me and debate some more (in a cival way), please do. It was fun when it started and everyone was involved and participating, but it got sour, and then just downright bitter. Its a shame, because a lot of newbies could have picked up on some really neat stuff that's rarely talked about. Oh well.

Anywho, PM if you wanna chat or MSN me at almightyjeff@hotmail.com

Peace out. Gotta actually go take care of snakes now, rather than practicing my typing skillzzzzzzzzzzz :D

[Beardonicus]

LMAO....where did I quote a book? I must've missed that part, lol. How come you didn't answer my last post? LOL.

[MouseKilla]

I've said it before, all threads should be closed after like 5 pages tops. Any more than that and it turns into a gang ****. It doesn't even seem to matter what the subject is it always goes to hell. Just an observation.

[JuliusSqueezer]

I never took a pot shot at your country. I just said that things are a bit different and you can't compare anything down here to a canadian breeding ball of gartersnakes. The comment about frozen lakes was just me whining that we don't have such recreation here. I wish we did. It looks like a lot of fun. Your own insecurities twisted that into a stab.

I want to make it clear so as not to cause any unneccesary inbreeding practices that "outbreeding depression" does not carry any genetic problems...Outbreeding is not a bad word. In nature, outbreeding DEPRESSION can be but not from spreading deformity and disease and it has NOTHING to do with the fact that the animals aren't related...it has to do with animals introduced from an incompatible geographic location or an animal of a different species or subspecies mistakingly identified by man...INBREEDING DEPRESSION speads deformity and disease and is by far the bigger problem. Many boas in the boa circle suffer from outbreeding depression? When and Where and what are they trying to breed? The fact that anyone is "outbreeding" to begin with tells me that they were first "inbreeding" I wouldn't be so quick to blame any problems they have on the outbreeding. The Golden Lancehead issue should be an eyeopener for those who think inbreeding is ok. Sure that is an extreme case of probably the shallowest gene pool in all of slitherdom....but then again...some of the big breeders in the US and abroad keep some pretty shallow genepools too and that's much worse because we have a choice.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh...and I was never angry..I just simply don't agree with your logic. The word "irrelevant" was tattooed on this little butterfly that has been fluttering around in front of my monitor since this turned into a "debate" and it has been somewhat distracting but I never got angry enough to squish it.

I wish you luck in your projects too Jeff. Give a stickleback a hug for me ok?

[Invictus]

Oh it's true. I've had reports of people seeing the beginnings of Jeff and I getting into a debate and saying "Uh-oh, Ken and Jeff are at it again, get out your crash helmets!" lol. I have nothing but respect for Jeff Favelle, and I absolutely can't wait to do some business with him. I dig in my heels with him sometimes when I'm SURE that I'm right, but in doing so I've learned more from him than I could from any book, because he's been there, done that, did it, and even though there are still a few points I will cling to vehemently, this site, and having someone like Jeff on it who can keep up with me in a debate, has been invaluable.

I've bowed out of this debate though, because it does seem to be getting personal... and petty. And NOT from Mr. Favelle's side of things, either.

I think the points that need to have been made, have been made. We now all know everyone's standpoint. I believe inbreeding is ok to a point. Annette believes inbreeding is ok to a very specific point - 3 generations. Jeff believes it is ok to a point. BWSmith and JuliusSqueezer are dead set against it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone!

Now, if someone has some new INFORMATION to contribute, I'll be more than than happy to learn, critique, and offer. In the mean time, come on.... this is getting pretty sad.

[BWSmith]

I am actually against intentional inbreeding. I like haveing a diverse bloodline. It is mainly siblingxsibling and offspringxparent linebreeding that I have aproblem with.

I would still love someone to do a study on captive populations.

[Invictus]

I personally think the study has been done, and the proof is in the pudding. I do know SEVERAL breeders, not just the ones who post in these threads, who do intentionally sibling breed, or parent x offspring breed, and no ill effects whatsoever have been found. I fail to see how captive vs. wild changes anything about the science of pairing up alleles though. Strong alleles make for strong offspring. I've long advocated the standpoint that the reason why weak alleles are introduced in the first place is because in captivity, the weak are afforded the ability to grow big and "strong", and reproduce, whereas in the wild, they wouldn't live to see their first meal. The problem is, even though they seem to have grown to be strong, their genetics are often still weak.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Actually...I am fully aware that it happens from time to time with little or no ill effects. But to what degree are ill effects acceptable? How does it benefit the animal ittself? How do we know how many generations deep the inbreeding has already taken place? How do we know how many generations of inbreeding will continue after we sell our offspring? How do we really know that the ones that seem healthy really are? Snakes hide illness very well.

I'm not saying Jeff is an idiot. This is my first exchange with him as best as I can remember...but the whole outbreeding depression argument of his is totally irrelevant to this discussion as it does not apply in any way to the natural history of these animals nor any other animal that has not been translocated to an area where breeding behaviour and schedules differ from that from where they originated. Corallus Hortulanus is the most widely distributed and probably the most prolific despite their slow growth to sexual maturity and small litter size of all neotropical snakes. They are way up on the speedy & mobile side of the boid scale and there is absolutly no evidence of any methodical or frequent inbreeding and yet...they are an extremely hardy species and despite their demanding husbandry are really quite hard to kill. I took in a pair of rescues once that were hidden from a kid's parents in his closet forgotten about for seven months while the kid sat in jail. During this seven months, they had no light, no humidity, no water and no food. When the kid's g/f remembered they were there, she went and got them and I ended up with them after a round of "pass the buck" When I got them, they were like dried shoe leather and barely able to move. The male came back within a few weeks but the female was a different story. Every breath she took for 2 months, I was convinced was her last....but she held on and pulled through and within a year both were fully recovered and up for adoption. What does this have to do with anything? ...well...these snakes are doing fine with their olympic sized genepool and I just don't think it's right to go filling it with dirt. I doubt any genetically unfit animal would have ever pulled out of the mess those animals were in.

[BWSmith]

I personally think the study has been done, and the proof is in the pudding. I do know SEVERAL breeders, not just the ones who post in these threads, who do intentionally sibling breed, or parent x offspring breed, and no ill effects whatsoever have been found.

The problem that I see with taking the word of breeders regarding this is that it is thier livelyhood. That would be like asking a tobacco company 20 years ago if cigarettes are bad for you. Also, those are observations and not research. I will take many breeders word on husbandry issues, but when it a question that affects sales, the answer will always be in their favor.

[MouseKilla]

Here we go with the "ethics" of breeding techniques again. What a bunch of BS.

Ethics only apply to wild populations because they are the only ones that really have an impact on the ecosystem. If I inbreed my snakes till they get they're legs back it doesn't do anyone any harm, they're captive animals and their problems can only harm captive populations. Now the part that everyone is missing it seems is that those captive populations have zero ecological relevance. The only damage that comes from any kind of bad breeding is damage to the breeder's pocket and it's a given that he doesn't want that. If we're gonna talk about what produces the biggest, healthiest, most prolific captive animals then that may be worth a debate but pretending this is a matter of genetic righteousness is ridiculous.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally posted by Invictus
I personally think the study has been done, and the proof is in the pudding. I do know SEVERAL breeders, not just the ones who post in these threads, who do intentionally sibling breed, or parent x offspring breed, and no ill effects whatsoever have been found.

umm ok...explain crap like this then:

Also, one female albino boa, BCI (one eyed). Perfectly healthy. Plus one =
male het for albino.
Both snakes are 1.5 years old. With this pair you could produce albinos =
and hets in about 2 to 3 years.=20
I want to sell these as a pair.=20
Price 1100 euros for the pair.

Ads like this are all too common and it disturbs me greatly that there are humans alive on this planet that are that ignorant and/or uncaring.

People all too often justify unethical practices by shrugging it off with..."I know others who do it and never had a problem" What about all the others that have been honest and reported their problems? Don't they count for something. Not having problems and not REPORTING or ADMITTING problems are two different things. And then again...maybe some haven't had any problems...YET.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
Here we go with the "ethics" of breeding techniques again. What a bunch of BS.

Ethics only apply to wild populations because they are the only ones that really have an impact on the ecosystem. If I inbreed my snakes till they get they're legs back it doesn't do anyone any harm, they're captive animals and their problems can only harm captive populations. Now the part that everyone is missing it seems is that those captive populations have zero ecological relevance. The only damage that comes from any kind of bad breeding is damage to the breeder's pocket and it's a given that he doesn't want that. If we're gonna talk about what produces the biggest, healthiest, most prolific captive animals then that may be worth a debate but pretending this is a matter of genetic righteousness is ridiculous.

WOW...I'm sorry that you feel that captive animals don't deserve to live a healthy life with all of their organs functioning properly, So you are saying that pain and suffering inflicted through genetics is ok if done in captivity? It doesn't matter that people cause their animals to be born deformed, poorly developed or if lucky in some cases dead all just in case they can pop out some that might survive even if in substandard condition? That's cruel to even think that way killah.

[Invictus]

Julius, all of the breeders I deal with represent their animals 100% honestly. I have had offers for animals that were not exactly the "pick of the litter", and they were pitched to me with full knowledge of their problems. In the end, I decided not to take them, but if I had wanted a problematic animal for a super cheap price, I knew I could trust the person who was selling it to me.

Your little example of the one-eyed boa is becoming very tiresome. I realize that that is one example of inbreeding gone wrong, but the ORIGINAL albino boa was not very genetically strong to begin with, so your example is completely moot. These days, thanks to outcrossing and the production of hets, albino boas have a great chance of being strong, maybe even superior specimens. Just because a breeder decided to breed his one-eyed boa does not mean it was inbred, and does not mean that pairing up 2 genetically superior specimens will show any ill effects whatsoever. You're going to have to do better than that.

I've already posted a link to a very highly educated genetics source which shows that inbreeding is not harmful unless a weak allele is paired up with the same weak allele in another specimen, and that this same occurence can happen with unrelated animals. You have nothing but a BELIEF, without any scientific backup, that inbreeding is bad, wrong, and unethical. And the ad you pointed out does not occur anywhere near as often as you would like to think it does. The number of cases of pairing up superior siblings for breeding and producing superior offspring FAR outweigh any supposed evidence of inbreeding depression.

But, my stance remains the same - I will outcross most of the snakes I work with wherever humanly possible. Note that I said most.

[Nett]

Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer
umm ok...explain crap like this then:

Also, one female albino boa, BCI (one eyed). Perfectly healthy. Plus one =
male het for albino.
Both snakes are 1.5 years old. With this pair you could produce albinos =
and hets in about 2 to 3 years.=20
I want to sell these as a pair.=20
Price 1100 euros for the pair.

Ads like this are all too common and it disturbs me greatly that there are humans alive on this planet that are that ignorant and/or uncaring.

People all too often justify unethical practices by shrugging it off with..."I know others who do it and never had a problem" What about all the others that have been honest and reported their problems? Don't they count for something. Not having problems and not REPORTING or ADMITTING problems are two different things. And then again...maybe some haven't had any problems...YET.

I agree ......line breeding to this extent is just plain wrong ........I do admit that I do line breed but I have never sold a kinked or one eyed anthing implying that u can line breed them again or state that they are healthy ......

[JuliusSqueezer]

That's great Invictus. I choose any breeder/dealer I purchase from carefully too. But I certainly have to weed through a lot of trash at times to find a good one. But then again...our standards differ a bit too so it's even harder for me I would guess. Before you jump me by twisting that into "my standards are higher" I didn't say higher...I said they differ. I just found the one eyed boa ad with a quick search. I could easily have flooded this thread into page 20 or so with posting ads of obviously inbred to the point of inferiority snake ads. I was reading a caresheet on African Housesnakes not long ago and the author was boasting about how when he got his first pair, they were breeding in the bag...soon he had a whole commune of House snakes all living together and inbreeding. He said that he finally had to pull the males out because the females were dropping clutches every 60 days and he just couldn't keep up anymore. Then his last clutch of eggs only produced 4 live snakes 3 of which were missing eyes. He guessed it was due to temp fluctuations...and maybe it was...but it sure does seem to only happen when inbreeding.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Nett...How many generations do you "linebreed"? Do you know how many generations were "linebred" before you obtained your breeding stock? When you feel enough is enough do you take steps to ensure that the offspring that leaves your facility will not be inbred further? Too many people think that inbreeding only counts during the time they are in control of the situation. It simply isn't the case. What happened before and what happens after still counts.

[djc3674]

*****YYAAAAWWWWNN***** ENOUGH ALREADY GEEEEEZ!!!

I think this Julius guy is going for a page count record. My god the redundancy in this thread makes me nautious. It's obvious you all have different opinions and feelings on this issue...let it friggin go already.

[MouseKilla]

Julius,

How aboot we try to be a little more honest about why it is we breed the animals in the first place. I don't think there is anyone that breeds snakes for the sake of the animals themselves. Whether you do it to make money or just for fun it's all one hundred percent for your own benefit not for the good of a bunch of snakes that otherwise WOULDN'T EVEN EXIST! Please tell me what good we are doing the animals by breeding them in captivity, I'd love to hear it. The truth is we do it for ourselves not the hypothetical offspring.

[marisa]

Well there is a lot of good coming from captive breeding that has NOTHING to do with money, or human selfishness.

Lets take Blonde California Kingsnakes as an example. These snakes are a NATURAL locality and not related to the lavendar gene, or the albino gene. Adults have pure blue eyes and gorgeous colors. The locality the founding stock is from was since destroyed. No other locality in California has these kings and they are most likely extinct in the wild.

They are worth a mere 150 bucks even though their locality is now this rare. They are said to be the rarest locality of kings there is. Do you really think this guy has been breeding them for no other reason than a few 150 dollar babies each year that he probably spends more on food to produce? He is doing it for the benefit of this locality. So it won't go extinct.

Marisa

[Beardonicus]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
Here we go with the "ethics" of breeding techniques again. What a bunch of BS.

Ethics only apply to wild populations because they are the only ones that really have an impact on the ecosystem. If I inbreed my snakes till they get they're legs back it doesn't do anyone any harm, they're captive animals and their problems can only harm captive populations. Now the part that everyone is missing it seems is that those captive populations have zero ecological relevance. The only damage that comes from any kind of bad breeding is damage to the breeder's pocket and it's a given that he doesn't want that. If we're gonna talk about what produces the biggest, healthiest, most prolific captive animals then that may be worth a debate but pretending this is a matter of genetic righteousness is ridiculous.


This is the single most sickening post I've read in a looooong time. I am utterly shocked and saddened that someone would think this way.

[MouseKilla]

Whether this dude is breeding those snakes (which are some unbelievable looking creatures!) for money or for fun or because his ex-wife was a blue eyed blonde and his breeding these snakes represents some twisted obsession with all things blue eyed and blonde; he does it for his own reasons, for himself. Is it a good thing that he stepped in and brought these animals into the pet trade before the went extinct in the wild? Sure it is. But again this species will now only benefit the pet trade as it can never be returned to the wild. It's great we still have an example of an animal that is extinct in the wild to look at but it does nature no good. The human motivation to save species is strictly a selfish one also but that's another debate, for now it's good enough to simply acknowledge that we breed animals in captivity for our own purposes, whether that pupose is profit or not.

[JuliusSqueezer]

LOL Yah I do it for the money...whatever! You want to compare my Vet, Supplies and Rodent bill to what I make off selling babies now and then? I don't breed most of what I have nor do I breed those that I do breed very often. The reason I and many others do breed certain species is to take pressure off the wild populations / to not support smugglers and the farmed/import trade..and to help meet a market for good healthy CB animals. Is it really so bad to have a moral?

[JuliusSqueezer]

I wouldn't call myself a "breeder" anyway....more a herper... Most of my effort goes into rehabbing rescues and finding homes for adoptions. I enjoy field herping and not all of my rescues are unwanted pets. I scrape them up off the road now and then and patch them up. BWSmith has a gray ratsnake I scraped off a road in South Alabama, fixed a prolapse ...wasn't really anything I could do for the broken ribs...but with a little TLC, a stitched cloaca for a few days and some neosporin...He's looking really good. Brian adopted him for his educational programs...I didn't feel that he should be released....If you can find greed or bad ethics in that...I'm sorry to have offended you.

[MouseKilla]

Beardonicus (sp?),

Sorry if I'm being brutally honest, and don't take what I've said to mean that I don't treat my animals with as much care as anyone else (I'll even admit to talking to them occaisionally, lol!). At the same time I don't pretend that a species from south America benefits in any way sitting in an enclosure in southern Ontario. I have never engaged in a single act of cruelty to any of the animals I keep (ok, I accidently stepped on the cat once in the dark but other than that...). My animals are kept in the best conditions my credit card can provide them but I bought them for my own enjoyment and that is what I'm talking about.

Julius,

I never said you bred snakes for profit, what I said was is that if you do breed snakes you do it for your own sake EVEN IF THAT DOESN'T MEAN PROFIT. Could be a lot of other things instead but no matter what your reasons are they are your reasons, it's not a selfless act for the good of any animals. You can pretend that your reasons for breeding are morally superior to someone else's but they are still YOUR reasons.

[JuliusSqueezer]

hmm and I was starting to like you killa...Sorry that you don't see captive breeding as a better alternative than raping the wild....Sure some were raped at one point to get the breeding stock here...but if they weren't being bred in captivity, then the wild populations would never get a break from commercial collecting. Why is it important for us to keep them and not just enjoy them on Discovery channel you might ask? Most of what is known about reptiles and most other animals for that matter comes from information gathered by hobbiests...not herpetologists/Zoologists like you might think.

[marisa]

"But again this species will now only benefit the pet trade as it can never be returned to the wild"

And that's because humans built a subdivision over its natural locality. I think it is DEFINITLY for the snakes benefit to be bred in captivity. This species can possibly stand as an example to other areas thinking about plowing down wildlife areas. More proof of humans wiping out a certain species. Yes it happens all over, yes its just a tiny example but if this guy didn't love the snakes for what they are, he wouldn't be keeping the lines pure. I don't see how him doing something for himself, while at the same time ensuring a localities premanence here is "doing something for his own purposes"

That's all. But I do understand what you are saying. I just don't agree that everyone in the world is doing things with animals for selfish reasons.

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

So you're trying to tell me that you breed snakes for the sole, selfless purpose of taking the pressure off wild populations?? Sorry, don't believe you. That may be a heart-warming side-effect of captive breeding but that's not the reason people began doing it in the first place. Do I want to "rape nature" as you so dramatically put it? Nope. I don't own a single WC animal and couldn't be bothered to get one either, it's more trouble than it's worth to me.

So tell me, if you do it all for the love of Mother Earth then why snakes? Why not pandas? Or rare penguins or endangered plankton? Why not just join Greenpeace? Could it be that you are just personally interested in snakes because of your own personal tastes? I don't think that is a bad thing, I'm just saying don't lie to yourself about your own motives, not that I care one way or the other what your motives are. Those motives, again, may not be economic but they are certainly self-centred, at least I am willing to admit that.

[Nett]

Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer
Nett...How many generations do you "linebreed"? Do you know how many generations were "linebred" before you obtained your breeding stock? When you feel enough is enough do you take steps to ensure that the offspring that leaves your facility will not be inbred further? Too many people think that inbreeding only counts during the time they are in control of the situation. It simply isn't the case. What happened before and what happens after still counts.


I "linebreed" ....when I do it ....... for a total of 3 generations......Then I out breed.......Now I can only be as sure as the breeders I buy from or as sure as the blood lines I produce myself.......No more no less....... I cant keep track of all the thousands of babies I have produced in the last 15 yrs to make sure that they arent "linebred" further.......But if I have "linebred" them for 3 generations I dont sell pairs of offspring to the same person .....Thats about as sure as I can be ........

[MouseKilla]

Marisa,

I think you need to look at why we care about nature in the first place. It is a question of human survival and nothing more. We are interested in preserving nature because we depend on it to live. If we destoy enough habitat and enough species we could be next. Should that happen the earth will go on without us in one way or another. Nature doesn't need people, people need nature.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Killa...please say "I" and not "We"...thank you in advance.

[MouseKilla]

Sure, I'll do that if you answer my questions and state what your motives really are. I'd love to hear what other reason we all have for saving poor old Mother Earth than to save our own asses.

[NewLineReptile]

Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer
Killa...please say "I" and not "We"...thank you in advance.

If thats the case could you spell NO ONE not noone

And i really think you should get off your HIGH HORSE and stop being such an @ss when people state their opinion

I don't care if you say you have 31 years in this because that means $HIT that does not make you know it all. This bullShit thread needs to be taken out.

Reason is 2 of you are just NO IT ALLS and just like to bitch back and forth to see who knows more.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh..ok...so when someone tells ME something that I KNOW is wrong...I should just not say anything ...no debating allowed. Just take the first advice given and not give other views or stand up for what I believe in...How does anyone ever learn anything that way? What point would a forum be if it's just for ..."oh wow pretty snake" posts? I don't KNOW everything. Jeff doesn't KNOW everything ...Mousekilla...well let's just leave him out of this LOL...Why do people keep opening threads that they don't want to read anymore?

NewLine...when you feel a need to correct spelling for others, please check your own spelling, grammar and punctuation before you hit "enter".

And why am I on the high horse? Am I not entitled to an opinion too? Is calling someone an @ss when they don't agree with BS what your purpose here is? Neat job. Does it pay well?

[marisa]

"So you're trying to tell me that you breed snakes for the sole, selfless purpose of taking the pressure off wild populations?? Sorry, don't believe you"

I am not trying to get you to believe anything. You are really making this far more dramatic then I intended it to be.

I never said *I* do it only to help out the wild populations or totally unselfishly. Please do NOT put words in my mouth.

I CLEARLY stated in plain English I understood your point but simply do not believe EVERYONE has selfish motives for breeding snakes. Sorry I won't agree with your generalization. That's all. I am not trying to argue with you, and I certaintly did NOT state me or anyone else I know is not doing it for selfish reasons. I believe 99% of herpers probably do it with dollars signs or selfish reasons behind it. I stated one example of a man who I think is not doing it for selfish reasons.

There is no arguement against you or me. It's a point of view. I am accepting yours, and hopefully you would be accepting mine.

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by JuliusSqueezer
Neat job. Does it pay well?

HAHAHA! that was pretty witty, you sure you're not Canadian?

[MouseKilla]

Marisa,

The post of mine you quoted wasn't directed at you, it just ended up being posted right after what you said, there was a seperate response that I addressed to you. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to pick a fight with you, as you said, you were agreeing with me mostly...

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
So you're trying to tell me that you breed snakes for the sole, selfless purpose of taking the pressure off wild populations?? Sorry, don't believe you. That may be a heart-warming side-effect of captive breeding but that's not the reason people began doing it in the first place. Do I want to "rape nature" as you so dramatically put it? Nope. I don't own a single WC animal and couldn't be bothered to get one either, it's more trouble than it's worth to me.

So tell me, if you do it all for the love of Mother Earth then why snakes? Why not pandas? Or rare penguins or endangered plankton? Why not just join Greenpeace? Could it be that you are just personally interested in snakes because of your own personal tastes? I don't think that is a bad thing, I'm just saying don't lie to yourself about your own motives, not that I care one way or the other what your motives are. Those motives, again, may not be economic but they are certainly self-centred, at least I am willing to admit that.

I don't keep Pandas because I can't afford them nor do I have room to grow enough Bamboo to feed them. I checked into it though...It just didn't pan out. It's too warm here for penguins except those that inhabit the Galapagos Islands...and I doubt I could get a permit for them anyway. I never checked into keeping them...just seemed like too much trouble. Greenpeace sucks...I'm not a neohippy tree hugger...sorry. Why snakes? Because I have always been fascinated with them and it bothers me to no end that people here will run off the road to run over one. It is my mission in life to educate as many people as I can before I die to at least respect them and not feel like it's their civic duty to kill every snake they see. Plus snakes don't have smelly feet or arm pits. That's kinda cool. Oh...and they don't hump my leg ....huge bonus!

[Stav.T]

My god! Does this post breaks any viewing or reply Records???? lol¸

Cool;)
Stav

[Big_V]

I must second it Stav ...so i had to add one more...LOL
Cheers,
Ryan

[Mugwump]

Yeah. Okay. Long time reader, first time poster.

Great thread...particularly because I've been reading for a while and, much as I love the snide remarks he has in store for everyone, Jeff is just on the wrong side of pr!ck. Believe me, I love people who can dish it out, but let's admit it, Jeff, you've met your match here, eh? This Julius character is the pure distillation of doling out bruising smack. It's fun to talk the talk, isn't it Jeff? Until you run across someone who does it better.

Just for your edification Julius, I think you've got Jeff up against the ropes and my god do I take pleasure in seeing the occupant of a throne being deposed in high style. This is Hamlet writ small.

Keep on doing what you're doing, especially if it means posting here. I would agree that intuitively inbreeding seems like a lost and ultimately self-destructive cause. You have a mission, and I think you would be doing yourself a disservice not to stay true to your beliefs in your breeding program. Best of luck.

[Brent Strande]

Obviously I am dragging up something that is most likely better off dead... but does anyone still have a pic of this "Pied" ATB, and anyone know if anything has come of it?

I hate to bring it up, but I spent the last 8 hours off and on reading the whole damn thread and all the pics are (obviously) no longer hosted...

[BWSmith]

His site just got rebuilt so the URL has moved or he has not re-uploaded them yet.

[Brent Strande]

Originally posted by BWSmith
His site just got rebuilt so the URL has moved or he has not re-uploaded them yet.

Funny you should reply :p as I was doing a search for 'education' with posts by you, BWSmith, and found this thread!

I was actually looking for your 'guide' to a herp educational show thread! ( http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16982&highlight=guide+to+educational ) Great thread btw!

[BWSmith]

Thanks.

[HumphreyBoagart]

Wow! intense thread! I only got 1/2 way through it and I will be sure to read the rest when I can, but just wanted to add my two cents. I don't think it's a piebald at all. I have had and know of many other ball pythons (i know pythons & boas=apples & oranges) that have had these same white spots and they are not genetic traits. This might not be the case with your "piebald" amazon, but I'm willing to bet ALOT that it is, but I don't know where I'll be in 10 or 15 years.
Hump.
PS or let me guess it was from me feeding live to it. LOL
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/4675spot.jpg