My small rant

[anders_240sx]

I have to say selling animals on this site and others used to be great. Recently, you get a couple people selling their stuff at insanely low prices, now everyone has to. It seems that if leopard geckos are posted on this site, they have to be $20 or less for them to even be considered sold. Yeah its nice to know they are going to a decent home. But sometimes you need a little extra cash, and spending days and even weeks negotiating prices for you animals isnt worth it. I could sell all my leos at $35 each to petstores in my area. Yes, some will only give $25, but they are sold instantly. My whole purpose of this rant is to simply say that classified ads are a good idea, but it just takes a couple people who simply want to get rid of their animals to ruin it for everyone. I have to sell a bunch of my stuff ..for even cheaper than wholesale, just to get some of the money I paid back. Anyways thanks

[Janus]

Well, I have to say that if you can get a better price at a pet store then you should. But I think that it works well right now, if you're the consumer. If people have to fight eachother for your money then you're going to get a good deal. But normally how it works anyways is, you buy from pet store for high price they only will give you a small price in return to sell it to them. That is why you sell to other people.

[V.hb]

At least its leos you're dealing with. Get into something "higher" end and people are even worse. Certain species cost alot to feed & maintain in order to breed but people dont realise this and still have nerve to question prices even if they are below market value.

[marisa]

For one, if you think the only thing people are buying off this and other reptile websites is leopard geckos, think again. plenty of people including myself buy quality stuff regardless of price. If your stuff is high qaulity and I want it, I am buying it. :)

Another thing is you want to make some money back, but on what? leopard gekckos? Unless you are selling dozens you can never make enough money to break even with them. Your money for crickets, enclosure, the leopard, and electricity will go far above any profit.

My feelings are sure, if you are selling things that are often seen yes you'll have to lower price. If you are a small breeder with not much behind you, then yep you'll have to lower price. But if you are a person who has shown consistant qaulity animals, has a good reputation and high qaulity animal in the ad, people will pay for qaulity. :)

Marisa

[wyz]

Anders, I understand exactly what you are saying. The thing is.. if you don't want to be frustrated by this fact (because it's a fact, people are cheap :) ), you need to buy your animals at a low prices or better plan your life and keep the animals you buy and not have to sell them.

I sold a couple of reptiles in the pasts years on different classified sites and price is rarely an issue with serious buyers, serious buyers who know what they want will rarely try to lower your price, unless it's outragoeous.

I now learned that you need to put a fixed price and if people make ridicoulous offers, don't even reply. Some people just love to deal but they don't even have the money, they get a kick out of lowering a price simply to pass time.

If you're selling a 60$ reptile, you're better off selling it at your local petshop for 25$, than selling it for 30$ to someone who is cheap !

I could go on and on, because I did observe some really pathetic behaviors from certain buyer, but this is your rant, not mine :)
But don,t worry, it's like tha t with any animal, any price,,, and even any other merchadise.. try selling a user VCR, you'll be as frustrated.

So I'll say... good luck !

WYZ

[MouseKilla]

All I have to say is welcome to capitalism. The principle some of you are missing is the law of economics that says an item isn't worth a cent until it is sold. In other words market value is determined by what the market is willing to pay for a given item.

At the start of a season prices are at their peak, as the season goes on the left over stock costs money to house and store and in the case of livestock it costs money to feed them. It may be worth while to sell the animal for less to cut your losses. The trick is to sell them just cheap enough to get rid of them all quickly, before they start costing you money while you hold out for that higher price.

As an example we'll use a clutch of hatchling corn snakes. Now let's say you sell them for $40 each and you sell all but 2 of them right away, after say 4 meals or so. The remaining two you are then stuck with. It costs about $52 per year to feed a corn snake so the question is how long are you gonna wait before you just give these snakes away because they are actually costing money? After 40 weeks they've already cost you every dollar you were hoping to get for them so it makes sense that as time goes on during the season the prices on the left over stock will fall. The prices must fall because the vendors or breeders want to cut their losses and get that stock out the door, they would be stupid to hold out for the higher price. The last thing they want to do is sit on it, pay to feed it and have no room for new stock the next season.

The lesson is to be competitive at the start of the season, move all your stock and not rack up costs from keeping your prices high and being left with the stock.

[BoidKeeper]

All I have to say is welcome to capitalism. The principle some of you are missing is the law of economics that says an item isn't worth a cent until it is sold. In other words market value is determined by what the market is willing to pay for a given item.
Well said. Supply and demand. There are a lot more people producing animals in Canada today then there was 5 years ago and it's only going to get worth.
Think about how many people on this site have albino boas and hets and ball python albino hets, it's nuts!
What do you think is going to happen to the price of thoese animals in 5 more years?
If you're into herps in Canada to make money you're in the wrong country. We don't have the population so therefore we don't have the market.
Sure some people have made money and some still will but it's getting harder and harder to get a piece of the pie.
So I don't think it's the classifieds or the websites or the people selling the animals I think it is the amount of people producing animals.
Cheers,
Trevor

[anders_240sx]

I am in no way in this for profit ... this summer I was fortunate enough to break even (cost of food, enclosure, approx. electricity vs. sales) however, such pet stores continue to sell beardies at $99.99 each, and they cant keep them in stock for more than a week or so ... yet on here people struggle to sell them at $50 each .... Veiled chams go for $80 -$100 in stores and are typically sold within a month... ICULIZARD has been trying to sell them for more than 2 months at $25 each and still has plenty available ... My whole point of this rant was to say that as much as I would love to simply sell my animals on reputable sites like this one, I just cant afford to keep holding on to them till they sell. And MARISA, I used leos as an example .... even high end reptiles are hard to sell on here

[MouseKilla]

I'm not sure I understand your point... All I know is that when you are producing a product (if you're selling it it's a product) your goal is normally to create the greatest difference between the price you sell it for and what it cost to produce it as well as maintain it until it is sold. That is true whether you're ambition is to make millions or to break even.

The way you maximize the difference between costs and the money you get back is to sell out quickly in order to eliminate the cost of sitting on your stock. This may mean that your initial asking price is lower than most other vendors but if you have the most competitive prices you will likely sell out first and by eliminating the cost of maitaining the stock you may end up netting the most money in the end.

[Tim_Cranwill]

I think reputation plays a big part. I don't even look at classified ads unless I've got some idea who the seller is. After you've built a reputation, your quality should do the talking and your prices, if they're resonable, should be respected.

(Not to say that you're not a good breeder :))

I felt a similar frustration this summer trying to sell some snakes at a show when the booth across the hall had the same animals for 1/2 the price. I decided I'd rather chance it and rely on my sales skills rather than "give" my stock away. I did some trades and some "smooth talking" and I ended coming back with very little at the end of the show. ;)

Breedeing is half the battle, but sales is the other half and a lot of people fail to realize that...

[Simon Sansom]

Yes, herps, particularly higher-end ones, are a tough sell in Canada. Most of the serious Canuck breeders who work with really high-end stuff don't even bother with the Canadian market - too many whiners, "tire-kickers", and "welfare herpers", lol!

Speaking from experience...

...For example, in the mid-90's I produced what were likely the first <html><b>Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnakes</b></html>, <html><i>Lampropeltis pyromelana knoblochi</i></html>, to be hatched in Canada...at the time they were going for between $400.00 - $500.00 each U.S., or more...Do you think I could sell any, even AT PAR with the U.S. price? Even though they were most probably the only ones available in the country?...HAH!

I ended up wholesaling them out...for next to nothing...

That's herpin' in Canada for ya!

Cheers!

Simon

[Darren179]

I think theyre is always gonna be "a market" for reptiles in Canada we are just starting to get into morphs that the usa has had for a while and people are gonna always going to be producing new morhps so basicly the older morphs are gonna calm down to a more reasonable price and people are gonna keep producing new morphs or bring in new reptiles at higher prices, never ending cycle if u ask me

[red bootz]

The laws of business are the same whether it be higher end or lower end. You have to find the right product and the right market. Anything other than is a bad investment.
If you can't find anybody to buy your million dollar product, it is a bad investment.
If you enter a flooded market and expect to break even, it is a bad investment.
Lesson? There are no sure things in business. Except one. Just as you're trying to get the most out of someones pocket, rest assured they're trying to do the same to you.

[ICULIZARD]

anders_240sx -

Just for the record, since you decided to bring our name into this post......we had 180 Chameleons. We have had clutches hatching every 3 or 4 weeks....we have not be trying to sell the same ones for 2 months. They are not our main focus here, obviously everyone knows that Bearded Dragons are our main interest. We are not having a hard time selling our stock (they actually have been selling very quickly) and we are saving the remainder of the Chams for the show.
We breed the Chameleons to help cover costs when Bearded Dragon sales are low......

I would rather sell low to Pet Stores than sell high-colour morph dragons to people that want the colour, quality and good bloodlines but don't want to pay for it. In this business you always have to deal with the people that say....."well, I can go over to that table and he/she is selling them for $100 cheaper". or "I've decided to buy from this person instead because she will deliver and is selling them cheaper............Well, that's because you're paying for different quality stock, but not everybody understands that.

I understand your frustrations.....it can be hard to sell stock (not just on the sites, also any other avenue you try) We deal with this situation by producing Chameleons for so cheap, so that way we can hang on to our dragons until we get the asking price. We also make ourselves competitive by having 3 or 4 sales a year and providing services for our customers that are not common in this industry.

Good luck selling your animals......I do feel for you. Selling can sometimes take all the fun out of breeding.

ICULIZARD

[BoAddict]

well said ICULIZARD

the way i see it is if you have something that people want people will pay

lets say i have 6 snow boa's how often are they gonna sell? id say maybe 1 every 6 months maybe a bit less if lucky
to make it in reptiles in canada you have to have the right blend of high end and lower end animals so that you have some cash coming in to support everything else, not saying you are gonna make money but you might break even this way.

[Lisa]

there's the art of breeding and the art of sales. you will have better luck selling in person then selling online.

[Darren179]

how many people that are seriously into breeding do you think break even anyone know a rough ratio?

[BoAddict]

less than 15 % imo

its still a hobby for most of the serious breeders

[marisa]

That depends on what you consider "serious"

I am not even sure still at this point what the issue is. Canada obviously has a smaller population, and like others have mentioned anyone who has gotten into this hobby thinking they would sell out in a week for whatever price they want, or make huge money, is at this point S.O.L. Especially with things like cornsnakes and leopard geckos. This is why I don't understnad why people constantly must breed everything they own. I mean does Canada really need 400 people breeding normal leopard geckos or amel corns? LOL I bred my snow corns last year, but now they will have this year and possibly next year off. Just because you have doesn't mean you must if you know what I am saying :)

But I also believe reputation plays a HUGE part. You can't honestly think you'll sell whatever you are selling at top dollar if no one knows who you are. You need to establish buisness and personal relationships over a few years of time and be consistantly providing the HIGHEST qaulity animals you can to constantly have quick sell outs if you are selling privately.

If you believe your stock is some of the best available no matter what species it is, then don't drop price. If they are high qaulity, and others agree, they will sell eventually. :) This is why I feel its very important for people to stop breeding together anything and everything they have, in the long run it will eat your money up and just ad more blah qaulity animals to the market. Only offer and sell the best of the best and quickly you will find things to go better imho. :)

Marisa

[ICULIZARD]

Marisa...

I really agree with what you said....however, I just have one question.

You said: "This is why I feel its very important for people to stop breeding together anything and everything they have, in the long run it will eat your money up and just ad more blah qaulity animals to the market. Only offer and sell the best of the best and quickly you will find things to go better imho."

Now my question: Take Bearded Dragons as an example. Do you think people should stop breeding lower colour morphs or normals and stick to the high colour morphs that demand the higher prices? I think this is a difficult subject. On one hand.....you want all your stock to be the best and only sell the highest colours. On the other hand....I feel that some people do not have that amount of money to spend on a reptile (considering all the other hidden costs involved) and therefore you should provide different levels of animals so everyone can benefit.

What do you think?

ICULIZARD :)

[Darren179]

ah I see was just curious im just trying it out this season as it while be my first I just have an all around love for it dont want to make a profit it would just be nice if I could do my hobby for next to nothing. and im just trying to dip my fingers into everything, normal leopard,hypo tang,blizzards,jacksons chams and antherstic corns and bps if Im lucky like ive said ive only been in it for 8 months but my collection has grown quickly. its just I figure start now 16 by the time im 20 I should have a nice little collection. but I cant make a profit everything is gonna get thrown right back into the reptiles :S but thats cool the more and more I read the more and more complicated it seems, from what I am getting you need to be open to a large consumer base to make anything doing it. Dont mind my grammar it was written in a rush.

[Gary D.]

I understand where you are coming from, it's not about free enterprise, or about reputation, it's about fair market value. You simply want to get what your animals are worth, not make a profit or break even for that matter. It's not a matter of supply vs. demand bringing the price down, it's some guy just flogging his animals and hurting the whole hobby for it. Yes you can hold out for a month or two and prices may be back up, but you have to feed and care for your animals in the mean time. And if someone else caves you're in it for even longer. In the end people start believing that's the going rate for said animal and then the price is hurt for the long run. Even for the bigger breeders are forced to sell for less and pet stores and jobbers aren't willing to pay as much, thus it hurts the entire hobby. And yes it's definately worse for the starter species like leos, corns and even boas, than the high end herps. I sympathise.

[reptiguy123]

couldn't agree with you more:)

[marisa]

ICULIZARD - I see what you are saying. Let me clear up my personal thoughts on that...I don't specifically mean "high end" by morphs. By high qaulity I mean only the best of the best. If that means the best nicest looking normals or the coolest new morph...I think people should use a little more discretion when breeding things. That's not to say I meant your specific animals, not at all. Or even people giving it a try or two. Its just the large amount of "lower end" qaulity stuff doesn't really need to be there ya know what I mean? that would bring prices up for everything because you are getting high qaulity. Just like I said before does Canada really need me breeding MORE snow corns next year just because I can? Probably not. They are already *everywhere*. When another year comes I want to try and get some keepers then sure I will, but I wont just keep doing it because I can. That's all I really mean.

Marisa

[anders_240sx]

I simply posted this based on a market value standpoint ...personally I find it erroneous (in some cases) to base looking at an add simply on reputation. For instance, I dont sell much stuff at all... however to the people I have sold to I have heard nothing but compliments.... what makes a good reputation on this site?.... perhaps recomendations from others... or what you have personal experience with. If I look a new member of ssnakess.com than I would assume they have little or no experience ... however take me for example ..I have been breeding geckos since I was 13...I am 20 now, but only joined this summer... I now have plenty of various reptiles such as R. Leachianus, various Uromastyx, a Cribo, cresteds, leos, and grandis days to speak of only a few ... So I guess my question is how does one gain a reputation on a site such as this ?

[Tim_Cranwill]

As far as reputation goes in this community, I base it on content of posts. People can post 40 times a day (some do!) and have nothing to say/add. When I read a "smart" post by a member, I remember who they are. When I see a member posting pics of superb animals, I remember who they are. I didn't mean to say reputation in the community sense as much as in MY opinion. That's more what I was getting at. But I also listen closely to what people say about breeders they've dealt with and take it with a grain of salt.

At the end of the day, the "best" breeder in the country might only have 8 posts... or none! But when someone is producing high quality animals, word will spread. The same goes for the shotty breeders.

But to address your first issue, I agree. It can be VERY frustrating to have to settle for less than your animals are worth. :(

Good topic though. :)

[MouseKilla]

Reputation and perception are factors but that is sort of beside the point because I thought this was about "cutting the other guy's throat" on equivalent product. I hope I'm not being too repetitious but I have to restate the fact that it is impossible to have to sell a product for less than it is worth in the sense that the price a product sells for DETERMINES what it is worth. What else can determine value other than the actual selling prices of that commodity?

It is ridiculous to complain about someone selling a similar product for less than you're asking. It is not unfair, it's competition. If someone wants to sell his stock first he will have to sell it for less (this of course assumes the quality of the stock to be equal). Fair is not the price the seller wants or the price the buyer wants, fair is what you negotiate. This is also why it is foolish to complain about the buyers that want to talk you down in price. The agreed selling price is what counts and that is what sets the value of the product. Your product ISN'T worth what you are asking for it, it is worth what you GET for it.

If you want to sell anything successfully you have to learn and accept that buyers want the best price they can get regardless of the work and money you have put into the product, it's irrelevant to them. You need to remember too that the other guys out there selling the same thing you're selling don't care about you either. They are called the competition for a reason and if they decide to flood the market with cheap stock because that's what suits them at the time then they're gonna do it, if it screws you then that's your **** luck. Sound harsh? Well it is. Once again, welcome to capitalism.

[Dani33]

Good post Mousekilla.

[marisa]

I agree Mousekilla.

There is a big differance between a buyer trying to offer a seller what the animal is worth, and a buyer trying to buy a certain sellers animal for what ANOTHER seller is selling for. That's where a lot of problems come in. Some people don't understand that not all (example here) pastel ball pythons are the same, hence slightly different prices. Some might have outstanding colors while others are ho-hum, and a buyer cannot possibly expect someone to drop their price to eqqual the price of the ho-hum ball python. This is another reason why I feel its important to purcahse the BEST breeders you can, and only breed whats HIGH qaulity. That way you can ensure the real herpers are going to be able to see your qaulity and over time word gets around.

Marisa

[Gary D.]

Throat cutting and your generalization of capitalism are not the norm in a market economy though. Notice how all 3 gas stations on your corner have the same price, or how groceries at Safeway average out the same as at Sobey's, even electronics retailers who are always offering the best blow out pricing seem to have the same products at the same prices? A common base line is essential to any stable and successful economic model. Yes, it's a free country, and individuals are free to charge what they will and flog what ever they want but they are still hurting the hobby, especially when it is such a small and specialized market.

GD

[ReptiZone]

This is how I see it.

PPl should specialise in 2-5 species of animals and take the best of there liters and hold them back for future breeding.
Sounds easy enugh right WRONG

now I love ETB I know they are a bit up there in prices but thows are what I love.

Now it is better for me to get 1 trios depending on the quality of animal I want. Then breed them and hold back the ones that seem more promasing for future products then do what I would call a secound pic witch is what would go on the net but ppl need to realise that the net works like a charm but to cut your losses you need to hole sale or put in pet stores the animals you personaly feal could take a while to sell.

Now you could re-breed the same adults the falowing season but why it will give you babys that will just over populate the hobby of that perticulare species.

Now lets say you dont want to hole sale or sell to pet stores god knows I dont blame you. You can do trades witch I find is benificial for the hobby cause you did not just get cash but you got your animals value if you are doing a good trade. Your animal head count has remaind the same and not only that in 2-3 years you have something new to bring to the table under your name.

For Example I will use Chris Marshell *I hope he dosent mind*

lets say I baught a trio of Adult emeralds and breed them kept some sweet looking ones for my self put a few on the net for sale and have 2 trios left and I could sell them to pet stores or hole sale them.

BUT Chris dosen't have ETB but man he has some sweet looking Dumerils I would like to have.Now I have some ETB that I want to off load . Well instead of selling them for cheap to the avarege Joe. I say to Chris Man I have 2 trios siting here doing nothing and I would like a trio of Dumerils and we will say he accepts the offer well now you emptyed 6 cages and then refiled 3 because you got 3 Dumerils {dont forget you have a few still for sale on the net that could go in a few monts} when you get the cash you refil the last 3 cages with somthig totaly new and it could be a adult Trio of Jungle carpet pythons so you breed thows the falowing year And not your ETB it is a new product NOW the PPl that baught from you last year say Hey he was a good person to deal with last year and now he has something new whats this he is selling for 100 Bucks more that is fine at least I know he wont mess arond with me and will get straight to the point. Now you can repeat the same thing over and over in stead of ETB this year you are keeping the best trio of Jungles then doing your secound pic for the net and then you can do some trades and off load a bunch of babys for a trio of baby white Lip Pythons. and you buy a adult pair of grenn tree pythons so now you are breeding Green tree pythons same thing hold back the best trio do your secound pic and trade the rest or as I said B4 whole sale or sell to pet stores.

Just to recap what your collection now consists of
2.3 ETB
(1.1 being Adult prouven breeders 1.2 being juviniles hold backs)
1.2 Dumerils Boas (juviniles)
2.3 JCP
(1.1 being Adult prouven breeders 1.2 being juviniles hold backs)
1.2 White Lip Python (juviniles)
2.3 GTP
(1.1 being Adult prouven breeders 1.2 being juviniles hold backs)
That gives you 5 difrent species to work with

As we look on time has pased from when you held back your ETB and got your baby Dumerils on trade and your hold back JCP are ready to rock also Now all you are growing is your new White lip python babys and your GTP hold backs

Right there you have 2-3 years worth of work done if you do it the way I just stated and all the ppl that baught you secound pic on the net know who you are and if you have half a brain you treated them good so that the good news travles. You are still a small time person in this buisnes but you were also only doing o species a year there for not over loding the herp world with the same babys EVERY year.

so now you havent breed ETB in about 2 years so you put your hold backs together and if you choose you can put the adults back together that way you can have a price range *for the sake of argument * just your ETB's range from $500 to $1200 ($1200 being the secound pic of the hold back litters cause you are still gona hold a few back for the future)
but now you also have Dumerlis boas to offer and some better Jungles Carpet Pythons to offer Again you can re-breed the adult JCP's or just the hold backs your choice nd if you are a sucsesfull sales person you will not half to off load the remaning off spring cause ppl will start to know you buy now.

that to me is a proper way of doing things cause you are working to provide a quality animal not just average.

what bugs me is a person that buy 4 trios of regular Ball pythons from a pet store because they were on special and sais I am gona be a breeder and make a killing but what realy hapends is they have crapy off spring and repeat the same average joe blood line year after year after year till every one and there uncle is a Ball python breeder the same with leo geckos, corn snakes and I am actualy starting to see it hapen with Crested Geckos

If you want to be a breeder don't plan on jumping in and slaming the market you will go no where grab a couple of species work with them to refine you own blood line.

In my explanation above I was alwas trading for new species but one year you can get a new species and the next trade for new blood lines for the 2 species you have and just work and the falowing year get a new species and the 4th year get new blood for the 3 species you have then bang 10 years later not only do you have 5 species of animals but you worked on having a killer blood line.

you know if you held back 2 trios of ETB's but you want a better blood line trade your 2 males of for new ones from another breeder so you can new blood in your collection.

Another thing is If you want to be a breeder and you want respect. From day one give credit where it is due and pay the price asked for don't try and save a buck every where you turn.

if you pay the extra $200-$500 for the quality of the animal you will not regret it cause if you have good quality animals you willnot realy be buged to lower your price all the time and lets be real here if you payed $1000 for a pair of adult snakes and sell the babys $300each with good reliable service and you do all the right thigs you will still make you money back and more and you will ahev put your name out there for the future when you do get expesive animals ppl will not hesitate to buy from you at $300each you only need to sell 4 to get your money back and start your name in the buisnes your service will speak for it's self.

One last thing I feal there should be a restraint on how many vendors are aloude to sell regular leo geckos and regular ball pythons and corn snakes and so on. Yes we need thows boths around for ppl that are just geting started hobby and want a good price and a good beguiner Herp. The vendors that are just selling Beguiner Herps or have beguiner Herps at ther both should be forced to have all animals for sale Vet checked with a paper proving so for every indavidual animal and also have detailed Care sheets with a FAQ attatched at the back for the species so if you have 20 Ball pythons you MUST have 20 vet slips and 20 Care sheet just doing that extra effort Will Make you look That much Better. So yes insted of 200 vendors the wil be 150 but there can still be tables where there is just info and animals on display. But from wat I heard alot of reptile Expos have Leos and Ball pythons every corner you turn. Bring your better looking morphs or Blood lines to shows for sale and bring like one of each Beguiner herp as disply to say you do have some for sale but refuse to bring them due to too much impuls buying at Herp shows

I hope I gave some help full Ideas to Newbies that wana start breeding there herps there is nothing wrong with breeding ball pythons or leos just STOP thinking they will make you ritch cause they wont Unless you are working with $30 000 morphs from the start and still No Name No way in h3!! you will sell a $30 000

I must Thank a Verry reputable Breeder And Who I Consider a Good freind for leting me in on thows littel tricks and secrets and for the great wake up call that I resived just a few days a go and that is why the post is so long cause it is still fresh in my head.
You Know who you are If you choose to take credit that is due to you feal free to reply.

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron
&
Lucie Masson

[MouseKilla]

What is all this talk about "the good of the hobby"? Listen, do you hear that? Is that the flower children I hear? Yes, they want to trade some beads and a roach clip for a pair of your snakes. Come on, no one breeds and sells animals for the sake of anything but they're own pocket and if they tell you different they're either a liar or a fool.

[BoidKeeper]

There's no money in corn snakes in this country and I'm working with hypo, ghost, motley, lavender, starting an opal project. I do it to see what I'm going to get in the next clutch, not for the money cause there is none.
I'm no fool,
Trevor

[MouseKilla]

Breeding animals for your own curiosity and enjoyment is one thing, trying to sell them and then crying about the competition's lower price or a buyer's desire to get the best deal is another.

All I'm saying is if you're going to participate in the market you should be aware of it's nature. The nature and function of the reptile, or any other market is not to promote the hobby or your enjoyment. Markets exist to generate money and while it's true that the vast majority of breeders won't make a cent the whole thing, the trade itself, would not exist if no one made money.

It's funny to think about all the people breeding reptiles that don't make any money who think they are helping the hobby or the industry. The people responsible for creating the industry, making it possible for the rest of us to do it for fun, realize that this industry is like any other, someone has to make money or the whole thing collapses. There's nothing wrong with breeding animals and not expecting to profit from it, I do it myself, but understand that when you go into the market to sell your animals that not everyone else looks at it the same way. The other sellers are trying to out sell you and the buyers are trying to get the best deal. Even if you aren't trying to make a million bucks doing this you still want the most money you can get for your stock right?

[Darren179]

I breed so I have more money to expand my collection. Thats about it.

[Gary D.]

well I guess I'm going to have to go out and buy some grapenuts and birkenstocks now. Maybe I can trade a boa for a groovy lavalamp and some weed.

Even if you aren't trying to make a million bucks doing this you still want the most money you can get for your stock right?
Oh and you're pretty much dead on with that last post mousekilla.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Mousekilla,

I agree with everything you have said, except "Come on, no one breeds and sells animals for the sake of anything but they're own pocket and if they tell you different they're either a liar or a fool." Lots of people breed and sell animals for fun, which is why they're happy giving them away if they can't sell. Me, I don't even intentionally breed much (if anything), but I'm quite happy producing lots of corns, normal or otherwise, because if every kid had a pet corn snake, a lot fewer people would kill wild snakes. Every corn snake out there contributes to the education of the general public.

For this reason, I don't think that producing 'blah' quality normal corns hurts the hobby. These will go to people who just want a simple pet snake, and don't care if it is a lavender which is het for invisible. In the worst case, cheap corns and leopard geckos will replace wild caught anoles, ribbon snakes, and rough greens as the pet industry's throw away pets of choice, which is fine by me- fewer animals taken from the wild, and the unknowledgeable consumer gets a better animal that the have a better chance of being successful with. Odds are, some of these new owners will get the bug, and become new people in 'the hobby.'

Having said this, we sell our corns privately for $50, and we do get it, but we're not trying to sell them into the 'hobby'. Anyone in the hobby knows they can get them cheaper at the expos.

Marc, I can see why you would like to limit the exposure of common species at shows. This will happen on its own anyway due to the market forces Mousekilla describes. If many people keep showing up with leopard geckos and not selling them, some of them will eventually stop doing it. If fewer are there, the prices will eventually rise a bit. However, I can't believe you said this- "The vendors that are just selling Beguiner Herps or have beguiner Herps at ther both should be forced to have all animals for sale Vet checked with a paper proving so for every indavidual animal and also have detailed Care sheets with a FAQ attatched at the back for the species so if you have 20 Ball pythons you MUST have 20 vet slips and 20 Care sheet just doing that extra effort Will Make you look That much Better."

Can you imagine what that would do to the cost of a corn snake, or a ball python, or most other species? Individual vet checks? Get real! Assuming that we're talking about captive bred specimens, this would be a complete waste of money! A captive bred corn snake, assuming it is feeding which a vet cannot determine, and has no overt deformities, should do just fine and does not require being seen by a vet. Assuming proper husbandry, it will likely NEVER need to be seen by a vet! I'll agree with the caresheets, though- always a good idea, but I think having them on a website is better, as it uses less paper that people will just lose. And, I think it is just as important to have care sheets for the more expensive (generally harder to keep) animals as the cheaper (generally easy to keep) animals!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Zoe]

Come on, no one breeds and sells animals for the sake of anything but they're own pocket and if they tell you different they're either a liar or a fool.
That's very far from being true. I have a small collection, and when I have an adult pair I will try and breed them for fun and experience. I know I'm not going to get rich and I'm not trying to. Take my IJs, I'm breeding them again this year (well, trying), because I want to see little heads poking out of eggs, not because I want to make 10,000$. If anything, it's the opposite! How many people on this site can say 'Yeah, I breed herps because I'm going to get rich'... no way, they'll say 'im breeding herps because they are my hobby, and if I make money ,great, if not, oh well" and they arent all fools or liars.




Personally, I'm concerned about the market itself. It's getting quite hard to sell anything; beardies and leos and corns go for a dime a dozen. I have two male dragons and I'm not going to get a female because I don't want them to breed and be stuck with all the babies they produce.
Sure, there are some higher end animals that can be sold at a decent price, quickly enough, but what's going to happen in a couple years? Albinos and rare species will be bred more often because knowledge will increase and more animals will be produced. Unless you export, I can't see how anything will be worth much in the futureé

Zoe

[marisa]

Good points Mousekilla but I also do not agree with the statement that everyone breeds for money. I also have a small collection and breeding for money at this point would be laughable and foolish. LOL. I wonder if I breed enough corns if I could pay my electricity bill for a month. LOL. Doubt it. Even later on I won't be doing it for money as I have put more money into my current collection that I would probably ever make in babies.

I breed snakes because I love snakes and think high qaulity captive snakes as pets and for breeders have a real place in this world and captive breeding has taught us more about snakes than any other interaction with them. I also just personally love snakes and the thought of seeing my own babies being produced here was just a huge attraction for me.

Marisa

[marisa]

I have two male dragons and I'm not going to get a female because I don't want them to breed and be stuck with all the babies they produce.

Good point Zoe!

This is what I was talking about earlier. You have lots of new people coming into the hobby and breeding anything they own. "Oh I have two ho hum corns, but they are male and female so of course I am breeding them" That just makes no sense to me. Why people are churning out more and more and more makes no sense to me. Everyone seems to have this giant pressure on them to breed anything they own thats breedable, and if its not, then buy a mate and breed them as soon as possible. But hey it's a free country. :)

A good example is the snakes we bought this year. My BF and I wanted some het albino ball pythons. We had the cash for a pair or trio of 100% hets but after a few months of careful thinking he decided that I could get the hets, but he wanted a GTP. We ended up purchasing only a male het, and his GTP. Will this help me out breeding? Not this year. It sets me back a year for ball pythons. But he LOVES GTPS. That's what he wants to work with. It won't make money ever, and we wont even get a mate for years until we find one, and sure I'll eventually get a female het this year or next but I am waiting to match up my male perfectly with a 100% or some super nice normals. instead of just breeding anything that has a hole. lol.

Marisa

[Youkai]

To the original post...

Recently, I sold some leopard geckos to someone for far less than I paid for them. Many of you probably saw my adds.

I found the market to be much, much stronger in Alberta then it is here in BC. I've learned quickly that leos, as much as I love them, are going to be a headache to breed and sell here. As such, I've sold all but my favorites.

Was I mad that I had such a hard time selling those leos? Yes, I was. But I don't blame anyone. I was well known to both pet stores and local people in Edmonton, and selling was a breeze.

Basically, the way the market is here...if you're selling leos, corns, beardies, etc. I wouldn't complain about the prices. It's already been said that they're a hard sale.

I considered it a case of Live and Learn. :/

[anders_240sx]

Heres a little question... what if I spent the money to buy a pair of womas, piebalds, and black heads ..etc ... and sold babies at 25% the regular price .... I am sure if u saw womas at $500 a piece u would want them ...or even selling piebalds at $500 each ... yeah they cost a lot in the beginning ..but you have the species u always wanted ..and after a couple years of breeding ur equal .. at least in terms of the price of the animal .... Its not a bad idea when u think about it ... cause really who would match $500 for womas, or piebald bps or axthanics ..etc

[Tim_Cranwill]

But isn't that the EXACT thing that frustrated you in your first post?

[Youkai]

But why would you? People usually get into investment animals because of the money they get in return, as well as a host of other reasons. And why would you sell for so low when you could sell for much higher?

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.

I'm sure if you had baby snakes in your hand worth 2k or more (espcially with some of the animals you're talking about here) a peice, you wouldn't sell them at $500.

[Youkai]

But isn't that the EXACT thing that frustrated you in your first post?


I also noticed that....

[marisa]

No you definitly would NOT sell at 500.

I am thinking you don't have anything worth over 2000$. Neither do I so do not take that as insult. My point is if you have say two snakes worth 4000 as a pair, they breed and you have four babies worth around 1500 each. You aren't going to drop price until eventually they sell, with high end animals you just sit on them until they sell in most cases.

And as for wanting Womas for 500 a peice? No way. If I am looking for a Woma and I have my 4 grand lets say....do you honestly think that if an ad popped up in my search with Womas for 500 I would go to that person? LOL no way!!!! There is no way I would be "looking for the cheapest" when dealing with high end snakes. You want high end, you get high end regardless of price. You dont take whatever comes long for cheaper as a buyer/collector or breeder.

Marisa

[Siretsap]

We all ahve to agree we like to check for a fairly cheap price when we buy something. We are living in a society of advertisement of discounts, and no taxes or no payments till... so yes we will tend to bargain for everything we buy.

The other point I see, is the reputation of the seller. If, the seller has a good reputation, I would rather pay a little more to get something from him I can trust it to be because of his reputation compared to someone who doesn't have that reputation.

And if you are looking to make money with lizards, well let's say leopard geckos aren't in the top ends. Also, if you want to sell at a price you are asking, why not put some pics of your stock, this way people will pay the price if they think it is worth it.

[MouseKilla]

Alright, I obviously said something dumb because several people missed what I was trying to say, my fault.

When I said that people only breed to benefit their own pocket I did not mean that people only breed to get rich or make money. What I did mean is that when it comes time to sell the animals that you may have bred just for fun you still want the best return you can get on them. Since I am one of the majority of breeders that knows they aren't going to get rich doing it and mainly do it as a learning experience or hobby I am the last one to say that it's all about greed. Breeding corn snakes is a dumb thing to do if you're trying to get rich but that doesn't change anything when you are trying to sell them, you're selling in the same ruthless market as everyone else and all the same rules apply.

I also don't agree with idea that too many low end animals are being produced or that this flooding of the market is bad for the hobby. If anything higher production and the corresponding lower prices will bring new customers into the market and at this point in the game, what's good for the market is good for the hobby.

I hear a lot about the Canadian market being too small but I feel it has just yet to be exploited. People who keep reptiles are still in the minority of pet owners but as more and more animals become available at lower and lower prices it's bound to catch on. I mean there are people out there who have rats as pets, honest to God rats. Would anyone keep a rat as a pet if it cost $100? Remember that no matter how much you love dogs you can only have so many if you live in an urban or suburban area. Snakes and geckos on the other hand can be kept by the hundreds in a spare bedroom or basement. I think there is a gigantic potential market but it must be cracked open first. The way to do that is to have available a diverse range of species at low prices.

[red bootz]

Excellent post , mouse killa.

[Youkai]

Hey, some of us have them as food in the freezer AND pets. ;)

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/133asriel2.jpg">

[marisa]

Personally I do not believe the market in Canada will EVER be as close to as hot as it is in the states. Aside from the obviously population issues there are other things to consider.

Many of the largest colubrid breeders in the states with thousands of animals live in the south where heating and cooling aren't as big of concerns. Here in Canada a person with 1000 corns is going to need a lot more money and a lot more equiptment to have a business comparable to a USA breeder. Even if the population and market size were similar, it just takes more work up here to get things that large. It obviously can be done, just not as easy.

I for one can tell you that if I was in Florida I would have a lot more snakes than I do here in Ontario! LOL.

Personally I just would like to see less "average" stuff being constantly pumped out into Canada. I think Canada is at a point where we can have a large reptile market, or a smaller higher QAULITY market. I would hope most breeders would strive for this.

Another good post Mousekilla.

Marisa

[Siretsap]

The lower the prices, the more people will be willing to invest in them. I bought a black roughneck monitor a few years back, and paid quite a lot of money for it at that time to have it die less than a month later and after a vet bill over 800$ for it. I never bought an other monitor since because of the high price of them and that most are wild caught and not in such good shape when they get in. If they were to be cb and the prices dropped, then I would consider buying some more.

It's the same thing with leopard geckos, a few years back they were over 100$ each and now, the average price in a petshop is betwen 50 and 70$, but they make over 200% profit, and an importer pays less than 10$ for them when he orders them by the thousand, I saw some prices on those.
I bred leos last summer, and I sold the babies 50$ each, or 2 for 80a nd 3 for 110$... I did sell all my leopard geckos, and I didn't want to sell any to petsotes, not because of the price they would offer me, but because I wanted the geckos to go straight into a place that was right for them.

I do not understand why you think that because a few people posted some reptiles at very low prices, we will all have to sell them these prices now. It's inevitable, people buy more geckos, breeds them, so you have a huge amount of them, and what happens when the market has a boom on a product, the sellers lower the prices to compete with each other, and the fact that it isn't a rare item either makes the prices go down a lot.

The wheel always turned the same way and I doubt it will change for reptiles. The more people get into it, the more are available and the lower the prices go. Iguanas are now 15 and 20$ in petshops around Montreal, a fwe years back they were 100$...
In a few years, I am sure you will have them on corner of pet store counters as a gift when you buy some crickets for food...

[Dark_Angel_25]

Hey Siretsap!!! I agree with your post, and most others. i will pay to get Quality from someone I know and trust. even if someone else has the same thing for way cheaper. I will go with what I know and feel safer with.

[anders_240sx]

I agree going with a trusted breeder and paying more, but in response to siretsap's post, you do have to lower your prices cause all people do is say "why should I buy yours, when I can buy them cheaper from someone else"... I could see your point in "high" end reptiles.... I am still having troubles understand what makes some reptiles more "high end" than others ... yes such things a womas etc ..I could see being high end in Canada, whereas they are more common elsewhere.... and such species as mambas seem to be more prized here ...yet I was catching them in kenya...

[Siretsap]

Well it's normal taht species that are on cites list will cost more to get in. Again it's the availability of the species. You don't see many woma breeders here in canada. Wait 3 to 4 years, I am sure the price for womas will have dropped a few hundred dollars.

[ICULIZARD]

Marisa- I think you make some great points. Thanks for the response and clearing up my question.

As for the money issue.....I think it is important when selling for the buyer to realize there is different quality stock. If you want a beginner animal and buy a Normal Leo, realize that another table selling Leo's for $100 more could be due to the difference in quality (different morph, bloodline etc). If you want the best, you have to pay for the best. If you go to someone else and buy something for a lot less.....stop thinking "hey, I got a great deal" instead question what you got. Yes, you got a cheap leo, dragon etc.....was that your goal? Did you want a low priced whatever that you could have found anywhere, or did you want something special "the best of the best" . If you wanted something special, then you just wasted your money. (but hey, you saved $100...good for you) :)

We produce some lower end Bearded Dragon Morphs for the people that want a dragon but can't pay the high prices the high colours command. I agree that there are too many lower end animals being produced, unfortunately we have to do that to stay competitive. However, I think that a point brought up earlier clears this up. Even though we produce some cheaper morphs...they are in no way "bla" animals. Still great quality animals, healthy, just lower colours or bloodlines. So....I would like to think that they are still special and worth breeding. Breeding can be a difficult job to make money at.....you have good months and bad months and have to stay competitive, while keeping your prices set on the "high-quality" animals, and have enough money to carry yourself when sales are low as there are still hungry mouths to feed and bills to pay.

We would not sell our highest phase dragons for low prices (with the exception of advertised sales) even if a customer threatened to go somewhere else. We spent a lot of money on our breeding stock, so that we could produce the best for everyone. Why drop the prices on these guys and kill the market when we have put so much into it.

Even with our high-prices, we still have people coming back...time and time again. Why? Because we are consistant with the quality of our animals and we have put the money into our breeders to produce the best. Also things like customer service come into play. Providing care sheets with every dragon sold (unless you want to read it on our website instead).....being here to answer questions whenever you need help. Also, providing all the information on our babies (clutch hatch date, parents, bloodline info, pictures of parents, etc), letting people come and see our setup and breeders and standing behind the animals that we breed. When you talk about reputation I think these are the things that help build a good reputatioon within the reptile community. Your job is not done when you successfully hatch a clutch....you have to provide the "extras" and the service to your buyers to make yourself stand out.

:)
ICULIZARD

[Siretsap]

Even with "high end" specimens, eventually we all know he price drops down very fast. Look at an albinos ball python, 3 years ago, they were extremely expensive, and yet this past year, they have gone down a few thousand dollars. Why, becuase some people will buy at the high price and breed them, sell the hets and all, so you have more people who can breed albinos and eventually you have to start lowering the price to compete with the others who have the same as you. And quality price, isn't always true either. Reputation is what would make me pay extra money for a lizard or a snake. And what most of us call high end, is in fact, a defecience in the gene pool. Odd how we are attracted by an albinos specimen when you think of it ;-) But I would prob still be the 1st in line to get some mojave ball pythons. lol

And having many beginner lizards isn't a bad idea, I like it when I go in pet stores and see they sold out all their leopard geckos, this means there are more and more people getting into the hobby. Lower end also means constant demand. You will always have someone who will want a leopard gecko, compared to a woma, not many people see the value of paying such a high price for one snake...

[anders_240sx]

Very true ...valid and respectable point

[marisa]

Well by higher end I personally meant higher qaulity. And this doesn't mean womas and snow dragons say. This means only breeding the best of the best of ANY phase, including normals.

My corns had 20 babies this year. Only two were good enough that I would ever consider breeding them myself from what I could see right off the bat (obviously they will mature and some become even better than my holdbacks). I have three here at my house. Now should I just breed that third one just because I have it? Not in my mind, it will remain my roomates pet. I am just saying I don't like how everyone feels they have to breed everything that have every year and just keep selling things cheaper and cheaper to pet stores. It doesn't make sense. If you have some ho hum leopard geckos, and a pair of outstanding clean beautiful normal leopard geckos, keep the ho hums as pets and only breed your high qaulity ones. The only people I really see striving to do this are bigger breeders. You *constantly* see people with a pair of kinda crappy looking normal anything wanting to breed them over and over again. I don't understand this. I compare it to the dog "market" Breeding a breed of dog that doesnt exactly fit its breeds standard is considered very wrong by most breeders. This just creates more "o.k." Golden Retrievers for example instead of more people focusing on only those who conform. I realize we have no scale for this with reptiles but a little more personal discreation (sp) from small breeders (including even me!) would be nice for everyone involved in this hobby.

Then again people "into" it just won't purchase these ho hum animals so I guess in the end it doesnt really matter. Just chit chatter. :)

Marisa

[Siretsap]

Well not everyone has the same perspective about the beauty of the animal. And by always trying to get a better morph and all you end up with some problems into your high end animal. The best example is in dogs, look at the Bouviers, all of them have hip problems because of the inbreeding they suffered. Why ll the inbreeding? to get the nicest bouvier... Same will happen with leopard geckos if you constantly breed them together without entering some new blood strain. I have a leucistic who has a crocked tail from birth, and more and more people are getting some reptiles with problems like this, either be a cornsnake with a crocked tail or a gecko, I am pretty sure it is in part due to some excess in inbreeding.

I personally still love a "crappy" looking gecko since this is what they would be suppose to look like in the wild. And we don't sell less and less to petstores, it's the pet stores who offer less and less. Did you know importers pay around 8 to 10$ per leopard geckos when they buy them in bulk (thousands at a time). Pet shopts pay those geckos from wholesalers around 18$ so when we manage to sell a leopard gecko 30 or 25$ at a pet store, I consider it lucky for that person considering the pet store will still sell that leopard gecko the same price he sold his wc one. I doubt a pet store will always invest more money into some cbb when he looses money out of it.

[marisa]

Yes true point Siretsap....not everyone finds certain blah normals, blah. I totally understand that. Good post.

I guess things will proceed however they proceed and only the people who either love the reptiles truely, or have already established themselves as qaulity breeders will get the best end of the stick. :)

Marisa

[Siretsap]

Well it's not that hard to get a good name these days, all you have to do is please the customers and they will be proud to mention your name when they speak from where they bought their reptiles.

[Invictus]

I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents here.

This year so far, Erin and I are going to be attempting to breed common corns, kenyan sand boas, sinaloan milks, and black-bellied kings het for albino. Whoopie! Not a single snake over $40! Big freakin' deal, right? Wrong.

The corns I'm breeding are a HIGH red male to a possible miami or miami x normal female. 2 incredible specimens. The kings I'm breeding are not only het albino, they may create BLIZZARD babies if I F2 them because the mother is a melanistic king. (Melanistic + Amelanistic = very reduced pattern albino, or blizzard.) Even the sinaloans are exceptionally nice proven specimens that are larger than any others I've seen (Daddy is 4.5 feet, mommy is 4 feet), and have an incredible red coloration to them that hasn't faded into orange. Admittedly, the kenyans are kinda blah. :)

So why am I breeding them? Well, for now, that's all I have that is breedable, lol

Well that, and I truly feel that the specimens I'm breeding together are definitely top notch. And here's the other major factor - if they sell, great. Pocket change that I can put towards something a bit more expensive. If they don't sell, however, Erin and I are more than willing to house the creatures for the rest of their lives and raise them as pets. This even goes for the 3.3 group of common boas we have. (Soon to be 4.4). We will only be breeding the superior specimens to create the best looking babies imaginable. If they sell, great. If they don't, I'm going to be building a LOT of cages. :)

But seriously, they can be slung in trades, blown out the door wholesale, shipped to the states (I have every intention of learning the ins & outs of exporting), or whatever. I'm doing this because I can't wait to see what the babies look like!!! I can't wait to pick holdbacks. :D

[Lisa]

Prices come down eventually otherwise they are artificialy inflated, look at dvd players. when they first came out you were looking at prices of 400 or more dollars, now you can get one for about 75$ with more features then the ones that came out years ago. Now if you spend 300 or more dollars on a dvd player it does alot more then the basic players that cost more then that years ago.... you get more for your money these days. when some one has something rare the prices goes up, when everyone and their brother has it by the gallon the price goes down to try to generate sales. But even out side of this an item is only worth what some one is willing to pay for it. for instance i'm not willing to pay much for a ball python bought from a pet chain, yet i've been willing to pay $200 for one from reptilia or a breeder like hiss and herps.

Supply has gone up, the demand for low priced snakes hasn't matched this growth in supply. As everyone has stated over and over, everyone and their brother is breeding. And as much as you think an animal should be worth there's no way it's worth that if no one is willing to pay it. You may have to work a little harder and visit some petstores, put ads on pay sites, and so on. think out side the box.